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Jon Wehrenberg
09-22-2010, 09:34 AM
One of our members had some minor engine work done. It was a simple repair, but it required the removal of coolant. When the work was done the coolant was returned to the cooling system, but there was coolant left over. The POG member advised the repair facility that if the coolant came out, all of it had to go back in.

Apparently that did not happen. The POG member drove the repaired coach about 6 miles at which point his engine was ruined, likely due to a cavity filled with air in the cooling system that the engine's coolant pump could not purge. This happened on an 8V92 and all the damage was related to one bank of cylinders indicating one of the two coolant pumps was likely in the middle of a bubble of air.

An 8V92 senses coolant temps on one bank only so there was no way for the POG member to realize on his gauges that anything was wrong. The repair shop error was very costly and it is likely the POG member and the repair shop are going to be arguing over who pays for the repairs which involved replacing all pistons, rings, cylinder liners, etc.

My reason for posting this is because this week I have been involved in discussions with several folks who have become the victims of shitty worksmanship. This example involving coolant is so important I am posting this to alert everry POG member to recognize and understand what some shops apparently fail to understand. Do not assume a repair shop knows what they are doing because I am hearing too many examples of people that expect professionals to be professional, but instead are not. The cooling system is one area where lousy worksmanship will have very serious consequences.

First, there is no quicker way to shorten the life of any of our coach's components than to expose them to excess heat. In minutes or seconds an engine, transmission, bearings, differential, generator, etc can go from prefect condition to junk if overheated. Our engines are controlled for the most part by a computer system that is biased towards preventing engine damage due to heat. There are only three conditions that will create a STOP ENGINE condition and they are low coolant level, low oil pressure, or high engine temps all of which ultimately are indications of excessive heat or imminent heat damage.

Recognizing that coolant is vital to our engine, if any repairs need to be done to a coach, including changing coolant, make certain the shop refills the coolant system. This is so important it cannot be repeated often enough. Our coolant systems are large and complex so patience and an understanding of the system are two attributes necessary to avoid issues such as our POG member experienced. If the work being done is not a coolant change, then you can help by shutting off all valves to the various heat exchangers through the coach. Isolate the engine so less coolant has to be removed and that if any coolant is left over it means clearly that the engine has an air pocket.

I have changed coolant in my coaches about 9 or 10 times now. It is the single most frustrating task because it requires so much effort to fill the system without air pockets. A repair shop that does not routinely work on motorhome conversions cannot possibly appreciate the difficulty in purging the system of air so it will be up to you the owner to protect yourself from ensuing damage if the system is not properly filled by making the shop aware in no uncertain terms that the amount of coolant removed must be equal or less than the amount of coolant returned to the cooling system.

rahangman
09-22-2010, 04:33 PM
VERY TIMELY and appreciated by myself and all POGGERS, Jon. Thanks for putting it in black & white. NOW for the rest of the story. How do we go about this not so trivial task. Sorry I am not going to be at POG 9 as I would like to be for this type of information. Do we have anything already in print that we novices could utilize either for ouselves or a check list for making sure it is done right?

Ray Davis
09-22-2010, 05:16 PM
ON a similar note, I just had my coolant changed yesterday by a reputable bus company. How would I go about verifying that everything is OK, before I start out on my trip this weekend toward Kerrville? I assume that I should run the coach (it's only been driven about 3 miles so far), double check coolant level, and retry? Anything else specific I could do? I was going to turn on my Webasto while driving to try to make sure that the coolant is forced through the heating system as well.

Ray

Jon Wehrenberg
09-22-2010, 05:38 PM
I am not an expert on this and I have no knowledge of conversions beyond my Libertys so couch everything I say in terms of this advice coming from a hobbyist.

On both my coaches I had a coolant circulation system that sent coolant through the OTR components plus assorted heat exhangers (such as in the Webasto system) and my hot water heater. That meant I had coolant ABOVE the floor level and the level of the engine, and possibly above the level of the coolant expansion tank.

One of my buses was an 8V92 and the current one is the Series 60, yet the same techniques seemed to apply to each. I filled the system with as much coolant as it would take to fill the expansion tank, which was the point at which coolant was introduced into the system.

I then started the Webasto or the coolant circulation pump and allowed that system to purge itself. I added coolant as the expansion tank emptied. I repeated this process as often as required to circulate coolant through the house systems and through the engine (in the case of the Webasto). The side benefit to this is while the coolant was being heated and circulated it was heating the engine so the thermostats were approaching the temperature where they would open.

When I could get no more coolant into the system by circulating it through the house systems, and with a full expansion tank I started the engine so it would heat further. When the expansion tank maintained its level I brought the engine up to full operating temperature. In my case a couple of trips backing up my driveway required enough horspower to heat soak the engine and for me to be assured the thermostats were open. A drive around the block may do the same thing. Then I parked the bus and the next morning verified the coolant level had not gone down overnight.

There is an alternative to this time consuming process where I am in no hurry. This device, available from any nuber of sources will pull a vaccuum on your entire cooling system: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?store=snapon-store&item_ID=66765&group_ID=12500

Then you can fill the system using this and avoid messing with circulating pumps, opening bleeder valves, or using any other time consuming methods. I have a similar tool and on my next coolant change I am going to try it on the bus. I used it previously on a car I changed coolant in and it literally pulls the radiator hoses flat and then when coolant is introduced the hoses expand as the system fills. I had to add a very small amount to the coolant overflow tank so I am optimistic this will aid in my next coolant change.

I learned about this from a guy that is very savvy about Prevost conversions and he said it will do the job and so far I agree.

HarborBus
09-22-2010, 06:28 PM
ON a similar note, I just had my coolant changed yesterday by a reputable bus company. How would I go about verifying that everything is OK, before I start out on my trip this weekend toward Kerrville? I assume that I should run the coach (it's only been driven about 3 miles so far), double check coolant level, and retry? Anything else specific I could do? I was going to turn on my Webasto while driving to try to make sure that the coolant is forced through the heating system as well.

Ray

Ray, FWIW I just had the coolant changed from the regular coolant to Mobil Delvac Extended Life Coolant. Needless to say I was very nervous about the whole process because of the recent posts

http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/showthread.php?t=4024
http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/showthread.php?4646-Changing-Antifreeze .

I had Midlane Truck do the work as they are the company that Marathon has do all their work and they have used them for over 25 years Unfortunately when I arrived for the appointment the fella that does all the work on Marathon's was so busy at Marathon that he could not do it. I decided to go ahead considering the overall expertise of the shop and my knowledge that I had gleaned from the above referenced posts.

Overall the system was flushed 4 times with 10-12 mile drive with dash heat and Webasto running between flushes. The coolant looked like Dale's on the last drain. Then we refilled the system with ELC and ran the engine Webasto and dash air a couple times finally getting a total of 20 gallons in. We made sure the coolant had traveled to the front of the bus by taking the plug out and reinserting when the red coolant showed up. I now have 2600 miles on the new coolant and no adverse effects or overheating. I do have a diverter valve (I think that's what their called) seeping a little coolant so I will order a couple of gaskets from Prevost and replace them both. From what I understand the seepage is to be expected with ELC, it has something to do with the original coolant laying down a film around all the joints, but no longer exists with ELC. I'm probably not saying that right and I probably get flamed for it but I understand the concept. The whole process took 7 hours and I was there every minute.

Orren Zook
09-22-2010, 09:51 PM
I agree with Jon's assessment of methods, as a rule I'm usually not in any rush to hurry through a maintenance cycle, as long as the prescribed steps and/or time table to purge all the systems are followed you should be fine.