Can leveling the bus like this be damaging ?

[Jeff Bayley]

I'm at a friends place and the level low needed help. Prior to putting the boards, I had one side ALL the way down and the other side ALL the way up. That made me wonder if I was putting too much travel in the air bags on the side that was up all the way but I figured Prevost would not allow more travel than it could bear or hurt the air bags.

I've used boards a few times but this time I have both lousy mismatched boards to work with and also the level is off on both axis. Front to Back as well as side to side. Therefore, I put more boards on on side than the other to help lift the low side more and make level as well as get the entire read end up to level it front to back.

Soliciting opinions. The bad pictures show the sloppy job I'm not proud of. The bus is level but how concerned to I need to be about hurting either the suspension or the axles. I'm going to be here for 4-5 more days. My gut feeling is that the bus components are pretty hardy and if I'm not bouncing down the road that it's probably OK. I'm posting this because I'm very uncertain however.

What you CAN see from the pictures is that the boards are not keeping any part of the 6 rear tires consistent. The two tires on the drive axles wound up with different heights (on both sides) as well as the tag axle being a different height. I think the tag is less important than the disproportionate load on the drive axles. ?? I moved the bus a tad and the tag when from being lower than than the drive axles to higher than. To walk around both sides you would think I've got independent suspension on all 6 tires but of course there is not.

Note that all these photos are from the same side of the bus. Drivers side. There's a view from the rear of the drive axles and one some from the front view. It could appear they are from the same angle on different sides but these are all one side. The other side is equally as shameful.

So do I need to be worried about twisting and tweaking my rear end ?

[JIM KELLER]

Jeff, I can't count how many things I see wrong in these pictures. Wait till Jon sees this ! Put the tires back on firm ground and straighten up your Bus.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jeff, Jim is right. Those photos do concern me. I see the potential for the thing to slip sideways because those boards or more accurately pieces of wood don't look like there is much surface contact with the tires or the ground. I also don't know if placing the weight of the bus on such small boards would tend to damage the cords in the tires.

Isn't there some wide planking available? Those pictures are just scary.

[Jeff Bayley]

I forgot to also mention I was wondering about the health of the tires. I guess I'll got out now in the dark and wet and get them out or maybe I can fix them. It's not steep enough to slip or slide down the incline. It's not that steep. It's really amazing how sensitive your system is to a pinch of being un-level.

Good thing I didn't shower yet. I should be able to re-arrange these boards and improve on this. I don't see how it could be any worse or more sloppy. Told you I wasn't proud of that job. Make a new category called "What NOT to do". Guess I should have put this on "True Confessions" but no damage yet (that I know of). Which brings me back around to the question. Besides it being just plain wrong, do you think it could actually hurt the suspension or the like ?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I think the suspension is OK because the air bags when compressed have rubber stops internally. However in the front on the side the coach is raised the only thing keeping it from going higher is the strength of the shock absorber end rings. If you bust one of them other damage can occur either from a loose shock or a damaged air bag. It also may over extend the ride height valve, and while it will not damage the valve it may move the arm into the position where it will not dump air when you go back to the ride height position on the level low. If that happens you have to lower it using level low before you try to drive.

[Jeff Bayley]

By doing away with the boards on the passenger side I was able to have sufficient boards to make it proper. So instead of having both sides wacky I got one side respectable. I wasn't gaining much help leveling Front to Back by fiddling with that side anyhow.

[garyde]

Hi Jeff. purchase some 1 inch marine plywood and cut 4 to 6 into 2 foot wide by 4 foot long pieces. Then stack as many as is needed together.

[Pete]

Jeff, what is leaking onto your tires? Do you have a leaky wheel seal? Something does not look right.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jeff, what is leaking onto your tires? Do you have a leaky wheel seal? Something does not look right.

Boy Pete, your good, I was thinking sheep, but they can't get down that low !

JIM:cool:

[Jeff Bayley]

Pete- Thank you very much for pointing that out. I don't know if that is water somehow since it raining and the ground was wet or not. I moved the bus again and got the boards a bit better so the tires (that were in the perfect position for checking what that was) have now been turned. At first when I read your comments I thought you must be seeing mud on the tire but after looking at the pictures again I can see it's on both tires and evenly dispersed. Would that not have to mean that both seals are leaking and judging from the pictures leaking at pretty much the same volume ? I have not been at high speed for 9 days. Could it be anything other than grease because it is very fluid to have run down that way. It would have to have run after parked when hot from driving. I shouldn't expect to see a new streak straight down after sitting a few more days I wouldn't think. What else could run that fluidly? I was going to suggest brake fluid before I caught myself. If the hub(s) are loosing grease then it would get hotter and hotter as I'm loosing grease and possibly could be that fluid. ???

Any suggestions on how to confirm besides getting on the ground and doing a taste test ?

[Orren Zook]

Jeff,
I think Pete's right, you probably should check the fluid level in your rear end and maybe the air pressure in those tires too.

[Jeff Bayley]

If we start hence forward making the reference document I could volunteer these pictures for the section on "Leveling Your Coach" under the "Wrong Way" sub heading. We have to start somewhere.

I got to thinking about the possible leak. I did have the coach badly leveled with the boards for several days prior but when I moved the bus and repositioned the boards was when I took pause and made the post. If you go take another look at the pictures of the shameful attempt at leveling I did at first, does anyone think the way the two drive wheels were off set could have been the cause of the leak ? I guess the answer is "Maybe". ??

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

If we start hence forward making the reference document I could volunteer these pictures for the section on "Leveling Your Coach" under the "Wrong Way" sub heading. We have to start somewhere.

I got to thinking about the possible leak. I did have the coach badly leveled with the boards for several days prior but when I moved the bus and repositioned the boards was when I took pause and made the post. If you go take another look at the pictures of the shameful attempt at leveling I did at first, does anyone think the way the two drive wheels were off set could have been the cause of the leak ? I guess the answer is "Maybe". ??

Anything is possible Jeff, the important thing here is to be sure you have proper oil in your hubs before you hit the highway and to determine if you in fact have a leak. What caused it is least important IMHO.

Safe travels, JIM

[Jeff Bayley]

I crawled underneath and confirmed I do in fact have a leak. I'm pretty certain this is a direct result of the bad/offset leveling job. Too coincidental. It's a good thing I wasn't too ashamed to post the pictures because if I had not, Pete wouldn't have made the observation of the leak and I would have found out about the leaking hub the hard(er) way. There's a shop within 5 miles that has the gear to help me get the seals replaced. I'll put oil in before making the 5 miles drive. I guess I should be glad I dodged a bigger bullet. I think about how the wheels go through pot holes and the tires must get off kilter but in this case the wheels must have been tweaked overnight or long enough to ruin the seal. 1 more lesson learned. 999 more to go.

More pictures of the leak attached. These pictures are from the same side of the bus but different angles. The other side is dry as a bone but I wonder if I should go ahead and do the seals on both sides and notate the mileage. Are the seals a PM item that should be done at certain interval ? I'll order the parts Monday. While we're at it, what else should I PM and order for parts ? I don't know if there is more than one seal to order or not. Thank you all.

[GDeen]

Just had that repair made at Prevost last week. Inside Drive seal leaking. Noticed when I pulled the bus out of the barn a couple of weeks after the Maine trip differential fluid on the floor. Holds quite a bit of fluid so probably not something to worry about with no more than you are showing in the pics, but need to get repaired. About 5 hrs labor at Prevost plus parts. I went ahead and changed out the differential fluid to synthetic while we were at it since the oil smelled pretty old and I didn't have a record of the last change. Mine was running down the outside of the inner wheel and tire.

[nrhareiner]

Good morning,

Anyone know the recommended interval on differential oil change? I did mine 24 months ago.

[Jeff Bayley]

I'm certain mine must be due for changing. What I don't know is whether to change the seal on the other side that is not leaking. Is 5 hours the "real time" it takes or is that the "Prevost talking around the water cooler time" that it takes to change the seals ? If someone was really focused on the task 5 hours seems high the way most Preovst bills are rounded up.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Gear lube smells like that, shouldnt smell worse then other things like lube oil on brake shoes. You should be able to turn the bus upside down and have no lube leak if you plugged the breather. That being said, our PM sheet remarked to twist the breather cap to make sure it was not plugged, which could if plugged cause pressure in the axle housing causing pinion and wheel seal leaks. We ran 175 to 200,000 on highway and 100-150, local work, on lube changes.
Ed

[GDeen]

Gear lube smells like that, shouldnt smell worse then other things like lube oil on brake shoes. You should be able to turn the bus upside down and have no lube leak if you plugged the breather. That being said, our PM sheet remarked to twist the breather cap to make sure it was not plugged, which could if plugged cause pressure in the axle housing causing pinion and wheel seal leaks. We ran 175 to 200,000 on highway and 100-150, local work, on lube changes.
Ed

Since I didn't get a lot of maintenance records with my coach Ed, I am systematically changing fluids over when opportune to develop a good baseline.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Kim,

I change differential fluid every 100,000. I don't know what is recommended. I used synthetic last time.

Jeff,

If you do not get the hub seal leak fixed right away, at least verify the differential fluid level is OK. If it gets low your problems and the cost to repair them will be very high.

[Orren Zook]

Jeff,

Depending on how long that seal has been leaking you might be looking at replacing the brake shoes on that wheel too. Five hours labor might not be that bad of an estimate, but you won't know until you get the hub off and get into the repair.

[Jeff Bayley]

The local shop got back to me to say "pass". *The recommended a shop on Syracuse called Stadium Trucks. * I caed them for a Wednesday appointment. *They said they're labor rate for RV's is*$125 an hour or about $35 an hour more than a passenger bus would be. When I asked why the answer was "just because if we put a greasy foot print inside the coach and have to clean the carpet type of thing" nanyone else ever heard of that horse S@&t before ? Said his best estimate was 2.6 hours over the phone.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jeff, A hub seal is a straight mechanical repair and nobody has to go inside the coach. Try a charter bus company, or if that doesn't work keep trying truck or bus repair shops. The guy that added $35 an hour in case he tracks up the carpet has his head up his butt if he thinks he needs to go in the coach to replace a hub seal. Tell him I said so.

[Jeff Bayley]

I think he was forcing himself to come up with an excuse. I guess that is their way if saying "we really don't want to deal with private owners who are paying their own tab". They would rather deal with a driver that doesn't ask questions and just says "bill my company". I know in talking with commercial drivers at Prevost service the amount of the bill was not occupying one ounce of concern to them. Shops must prefer that without doubt.

[GDeen]

Actually Stewart and Stevenson in Houston has same policy for same reason. They didn't charge me the rate, but they have it posted and when I enquired as to why that was his exact response. A mechanic goes in for any reason and gets grease on something, they have to clean it up.

Tell them you will pull it into the service bay, release the parking brake as needed, and they will never have to enter the coach. I bet they will work with you.

I was fortunate in that my brakes had been barely contacted by the leaking fluid and were easily cleaned up.

[Jeff Bayley]

I got the seal replaced last night with the night shift at a charter bus place per Jon's suggestion. Only $175 with tip using my supplied parts. Brakes were ok. Little fluid was lost. They topped it off instead of drain and replace. Has to be the cheapest service bill I've ever paid. I wish I had thought to let them change the oil while I was there. $75 / hour and very competent. I got lucky. The service manager seemed to doubt it was due to the way I leveled the coach. Thanks again to Pete for noticing the leak on my tires.

Here's the name of this great shop.

Birnie Bus Service, Inc.
248 Otis Street
Rome, NY 13441
Phone: (800) 734.3950
Fax: (315) 339.5957
Email: info@birniebus.com

I think somewhere in here it was mentioned about members giving a thumbs up or thumbs down to various shops across country but I don't think there is any compilation of this yet is there ? If I have to go back and remember other shops I've used from before I do not store those in my memory banks long term and others might not either. This is less daunting that making the more involved reference document. I think in either case it's a matter of starting to throw something together from this point forward.

Is 10k between oil changes a good rule ? I think others change it more frequently. 7,500 miles maybe ?? Going to retrieve our trailer and then start drifting South and maybe drift over to Texas if you guys will have me. Out of 70 or so buses there has to be SOMEBODY there that will like us.

[Kenneth Brewer]

Just a note. It may be useful to those who may not know; the drive axles on coaches are all full floaters, which means that wheel loading is taken out only on the outer axle wheel bearings, and not the axle shafts themselves, unlike the usual automobile live rear axle (rear wheel drive). The axle shafts can be pulled without removing the wheels or brakes, and the vehicle would be supported as it was. Additionally it means that an axle (shaft) can break without a wheel coming off or compromising the strength of the axle housing itself, which handles the actual load. This means that regardless of the load and its vector (direction), there would not be an impact on seals or axle shafts, unless there were something grossly wrong with the axle housing or bearings themselves. But it is still possible to have axle fluid leakage through a damaged or worn seal if the tilt of the vehicle were enough, but not because of weight/load applied unevenly to one side. I hope this is as clear as I intended it to be.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Actually the seal is going to be below the fluid level so if the seal is bad there will be some leakage regardless of whether the axle is tipped or not.

For those who have not had an opportunity to see the end of the differential housing with the hub removed, the differential fluid, when full will not run out of a differential housing with the end open. The hubs are actually a housing for the differential fluid and fluid enters during the normal course of driving by means of the tipping one way or another of the differential. Like the front and tag axle hubs all that is required is for some fluid to be in the hubs so the bearings are running in oil.

The hub seals are a press fit into the hub, and the flexible plastic inner section goes over and rests upon the end of the differential housing. To insure the long life of the hub seal the inner and outer races must rotate freely with respect to one another and require contact with the differential fluid to keep them lubircated.

Hard to explain.

The chromed section closest to the bus frame is the surface the inner portion of the hub seal goes over.

The differential is full and you can see in the picture nothing is running out. But once assembled and through normal movement of the bus the oil level in the hub will rise as high as the bottom of the differential opening. Any thing above that runs back into the differential.

[Kenneth Brewer]

Actually the seal is going to be below the fluid level so if the seal is bad there will be some leakage regardless of whether the axle is tipped or not.



Better. Thanks Jon.

[GDeen]

For the record, my repair on the inner drive wheel seal was a 5 hr job at Prevost including cleanup of the small amount of fluid on brake drums, etc......