Talking about Wheels

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I am installing smart tire on the bus and thus am taking the tires off. Have found quite a mess there and am cleaning it up.
Something I am having trouble with is cleaning the valve stem pocket found on the outside of the wheel in the dished area. It is very dirty and corroded and needs to be clean to properly seat and seal the stem.
The best way to see it is with an inspection mirror and a magnifying glass. I am wondering does anyone know of a special tool for performing the task and where to get one. Something that fits the hole and attaches to a drill with maybe skotchbright inserts or what.

After removing a wheel I found a leaking tag oil seal. :eek: and learned about wheel wear on the mounting flange. :(

Lots of work to get these buggers into shape. :D

A few images of wheels and tires:rolleyes:

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

and a few more.

[Orren Zook]

Jim,

The best source for heavy duty rim/tire repair products is Tech International of Johnstown Ohio: http://www.techtirerepairs.com/usa.htm

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jim,

The best source for heavy duty rim/tire repair products is Tech International of Johnstown Ohio: http://www.techtirerepairs.com/usa.htm

Good source Orren, thanks. I remember some were looking for tire gauges not too long ago, well they have one that looks real nice, don't know the price though.
http://www.techtirerepairs.com/catalog/ItemDetail.aspx?itemnum=%C2%A0GTGD50%C2%A0&salessubgroup=OR090

Skiffer, that would be a nice handout for the rally for everyone as they check in :cool:

JIM

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Found this:

http://www.todaystrucking.com/images/AlcoaSVM_Manual.pdf


JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Hub seals are quite reliable. Considering the number of miles I have put on both my coaches and how few I have replaced over 20 years is a testament to their reliability.

But I noticed on Jim's tag axle brake chamber signs that the tag axle seal leak is not recent. One of the inspections I think everyone should do is to look for indications of a leak. A drive axle hub seal leak is easiest to note from beneath the coach so every time the coach is lubed a close look at the inner wheel will be the easiest way to check that. Tag and steer axle leaks can be easily checked any time the tires have their air pressure checked. Stick your finger through a hole in the wheel and feel the wheel. If all you get is dry brake dust, no leak. If your finger has grease on it, the seal is leaking.

At that point checking the fluid level in the hubs becomes critical until the problem can be taken care of. A little oil in the hubs in a timely manner will save some serious repair money. Do not overfill the hubs, just insure the oil level is at the bottom of the viewing area, and make sure the pin hole in the cap is open so there is no pressure build up in the hub.

Never ever allow a hub seal replacement unless the technician (or you) pre-lubes the bearings, especially on the drive axle.

[chtree]

Jim

Johnson's tire service is right down in Weldbank Pa right across the street from Hoffman Coach on Rt 6. They service most big truck and bus needs in our area. 814-723-8650.

Good luck !

Chris

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon said, " But I noticed on Jim's tag axle brake chamber signs that the tag axle seal leak is not recent. One of the inspections I think everyone should do is to look for indications of a leak."

I am wondering what signs you see? The photo shows a clean and flat black painted brake chamber.

JIM

[stevet903]

Jim - Do you have a Dremel tool? If so, they make exactly what you need:

http://www.amazon.com/Dremel-511E-Coarse-Finishing-Abrasive/dp/B000FBF3OM/ref=pd_cp_hi_0

or maybe these:

http://www.amazon.com/Scotch-Brite-Green-150-Grit/dp/B001BGU7I2

Steve

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jim - Do you have a Dremel tool? If so, they make exactly what you need:

http://www.amazon.com/Dremel-511E-Coarse-Finishing-Abrasive/dp/B000FBF3OM/ref=pd_cp_hi_0

or maybe these:

http://www.amazon.com/Scotch-Brite-Green-150-Grit/dp/B001BGU7I2

Steve

Thanks Steve, I like that second link best. Just what I was looking for!

JIM :o

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

As I moved along with the smart tire install I removed the drive wheels.

With their removal several studs broke off on the starboard hub, 5 to be exact, now that was scary.

This is an area of the bus that many don't think about and whose failure can be disastrous.

I will change them all. They are just as important as tires and I believe they should be given a "time in service interval" and maybe they have one and I don't know about it.

With this event I was motivated to do some research about studs. An important thing that I have found is that the fastening nut should be adjusted with a torque wrench and the last movement of the nut to its final torqued position should be through a minimum continuous movement of 90 degrees. I feel reasonably sure no one in this group has that capability! Even though many of us have the X-12 torque multiplying wrench and use a torque wrench with it, the movement of the nut is in small incremental steps and not a sweeping arc of 90+ degs.. The same would hold true for the impact wrench with a torque stick added behind the socket.

If I ever buy another used bus among the first things I will do is change all the wheel studs at the time of purchase.

JIM:)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

What I saw was a film of oil (at least that is what it looked like) on the back of the caliper and extending around the bracket to the brake chamber. If it is not a light film, dried by accumulated road and brake dust then I mis-spoke.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

JIm,

Over the years I have broken 3 of the inner drive axle "nuts" with the threaded body and square head.

One was removed using the tool that grips it and it spun off the inner stud. The other two would not loosen so I welded a nut on the end (disconnecting the computers) and used my impact wrench to remove them. I have no idea why one will break, but they do on occasion. I did change all of them on the first coach, but one of the new ones broke so I now only replace one if it breaks.

My guess is that if someone applied them without using the proper torque that may have contributed to their failure. I cannot remember if any I installed failed nor if the ones that failed had been installed by someone else. On a couple of occasions such as when getting new tires I allowed someone to install my wheels. Nobody but me has removed or replaced a wheel on my current bus, and I also have not had to replace a broken stud on this bus so that might have something to do with the failure.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Two items I need help with;

The torque value for the nut holding the wheel stud into the wheel hub.

The torque value for lubricated lug nuts.

Thanks, JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Lug nuts should not be lubricated. All torque values are for dry, clean threads.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Lug nuts should not be lubricated. All torque values are for dry, clean threads.

In the early days of POG there was posted a lubed torque value. It was less than the dry value.

I think part of the stud, nut problem is the siezing and galing of the dry threads. I could be wrong but that is what I believe. Dry might be the convention, but I think it is wrong.

I would like to know the engineering principle involved in specifying dry, other than out in the field it is unlikly that a down and dirty tire repair facility or other individual removing and installing wheels would have and know how to use the proper lube.

JIM

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I removed the screws holding the brake drum to the hub and can not remove the brake drum.

What is the next step. I thought it would be loose???




JIM

[JIM KELLER]

Jim If you keep taking stuff apart on that Bus you won't get it together for Kerville !

[Kenneth Brewer]

I removed the screws holding the brake drum to the hub and can not remove the brake drum.

What is the next step. I thought it would be loose???


JIM


Two points for you to consider:

In my experience with the Bluebird, you will need to use a medium to heavyweight sledge hammer (around 20# head or so) to loosen the drum from the rotating studded flange it is bolted to. Several good raps may be necessary to break the rust. Keep in mind the drum is very heavy; do not drop a testicle trying to remove the drum laterally along the centerline to get it off. I had to do this with four drums (no tag).

It is possible that the shoes have cut a ring into the ID of the brake drum. You will have to back off the slef-adjusting brake cam/screw to bring the shoes in (toward the center) enough to clear the drum for removal.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jim If you keep taking stuff apart on that Bus you won't get it together for Kerville !

Jim, this is not voluntary work.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

Assuming you have the screws holding the drum in place removed, the next step is to back off the slack adjuster. If you haven't caged the emergency brake do that and then back off the slack adjuster by lifting the sheet metal disc and then turning the square adjuster counter clockwise.

If the drum is stuck to the hub as Ken describes give it a whack.

When re-assembling use never-seize on the brake drum screws because that will save a lot of effort the next time. They are usually a pain to loosen. I urge you to look further into using lube on the wheel studs. As far as I know that is not recommended.

[stevet903]

From the Prevost maintenance manual:

7. WHEEL STUDS
Stripped threads may be the result of excessive torquing, or may have been damaged during wheel installation, when placing the wheel over
the studs. A stud having damaged threads must be replaced. Broken studs are a direct result of operating with loose stud nuts or improperly
seated wheels. When a broken stud is replaced, the adjacent studs, on each side of the broken one must also be replaced, since they could have
been subjected to excessive strain and may be fatigued.
When installing wheel studs to hubs, check nuts retaining the wheel stud to wheel hub and if they are deformed, damaged or severely corroded,
install new parts. Install nut (and washer where applicable) to new stud and torque to 110 - 130 lb-ft (150 - 177 Nm) for studs mounted on front and tag axle wheel hubs and torque to 450 - 500 lb-ft (610 - 680 Nm) for those mounted on drive axle wheel hubs.

[stevet903]

From the Jan 2009 Alcoa wheel service manual: (It has some nice diagrams as well!!)

Hub pilot wheels:

Two-piece flange nuts with a 33mm hex head design (see Section5-2), used with hub piloted wheels
should be tightened to a torque of 450 to 500 foot-pounds. Two-piece flange nuts with 1-1/2-inch
hex head design and other designs have different torque requirements. Inquire of the manufacturer for
the proper torque values. See section 6-2.
Wheel studs on both the right and left side hubs of vehicles utilizing the hub piloted wheel system
have right-hand threads.
Prior to mounting hub piloted wheels, generously coat the wheel pilot or hub pads with a non-waterbased
lubricant to minimize corrosion product build-up between the wheel and hub pilot. Excessive
corrosion build-up between the wheel and hub pilots can make wheel removal difficult. Do not lubricate
the face of the wheel, hub or brake drum (see illustration on the next page).
Lubricate the hub pads or the wheel hub bore generously with a non-water-based
lubricant.
Before installing two-piece flange nuts, lightly lubricate the stud threads and the contact surfaces
between the cap nut and the washer as illustrated below with an SAE 30W oil. This will minimize corrosion
between the mating surfaces. Lubrication is not necessary with new hardware.
Position one of the hub’s pilot pads at the twelve o’clock position. After positioning wheels on the
pilot pads, hand tighten all two-piece flange nuts, then tighten to the recommended torque following
the proper sequence shown below for your type wheel. After 5-50 miles of operation torque should be
rechecked, unless your documented fleet practices determine otherwise. Check torque frequently from
then on. If nuts require frequent tightening, studs break frequently, or wheel bolt holes are pounding
out, hardware and mounting practices should be reviewed.

Stud pilot wheels:

WARNING Lubricants should not be applied to the cap nut seat or to the cap nut-to-wheel
contact surface.
Oiled seats can lead to over-torquing which can stretch studs causing failure of studs.
Failed studs can cause the wheel to disengage from the vehicle, causing serious injury
or death.
Lubricants must be completely removed from the cap nut seats and contact surfaces if
applied accidentally.

<Diagram showing use of 30 wt oil on studs, with an X through oiling the ball seat on the nut or the wheel surface>

It is recommended to torque to between 450 and 500 foot-pounds. If lubricated with SAE 30W oil
torque should be between 350 and 400 foot-pounds. Note: when dualing steel wheels with Alcoa
aluminum wheels, follow the steel wheel manufacturer’s recommendations regarding the proper torque
and use of thread lubricants to mount the wheel.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jim,

Assuming you have the screws holding the drum in place removed, the next step is to back off the slack adjuster. If you haven't caged the emergency brake do that and then back off the slack adjuster by lifting the sheet metal disc and then turning the square adjuster counter clockwise.

If the drum is stuck to the hub as Ken describes give it a whack.

When re-assembling use never-seize on the brake drum screws because that will save a lot of effort the next time. They are usually a pain to loosen. I urge you to look further into using lube on the wheel studs. As far as I know that is not recommended.

New studs and nuts are on order as well as seals and other components necessary if the hub must be removed for stud replacement.
The drum retaining screws are removed and the drum is released, but not removed.
I will follow specifications and re-assemble studs and nuts DRY but I don't like it.

I have two maintenance manuals and can find no information in either about caging the brakes or re-adjusting the slak adjusters on completion.

Could you be more specific on the process. I have a hex nut/cap on the side of the slak adjuster and a square screw head on the end. If caging is not performed properly and I loose air pressure with the drum off, what are the consequences?? Will the brake assembly expand disastrously??

Does the T bolt in the brake chamber take part in the caging process?

I must go to Cleveland for the day and will be away from the computer.


Thanks, JIM

[Orren Zook]

Jim,

I'm going to send you a PM with the specs on the correct procedure for adjusting those slack adjusters/brakes.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

JIm,

Caging an emergency brake (so you can back off the slack adjuster) is not something to be taken lightly. First, use the "T" bolt supplied with the brake chamber. Make certain it is engaged by inserting it into the hole and turning it 90 degrees. The process is greatly simplified if the emergency brakes are released so you are not trying to turn the nut on the T bolt for the entire length of the threads under load.

After inserting the T bolt, reapply the emergency brakes. That takes all air pressure off the brakes and verifies the T bolt is in the proper position and secure.

It also allows you to work in that area without relying on air pressure (used to release the emergency brake) to keep the brake released. With the T bolt the brakes are held in the released position mechanically.

The square headed screw on the slack adjuster is to back the slack adjuster off so the drum can be removed. I will stay out of that discussion since Orren is going to help you there. It is a smiple procedure.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Forgot to mention, after reassembly the adjustment of the slack adjusters can be done manually, but since they are self adjusting you can also fan the brakes and let them adjust themselves.

I usually disconnect the service brake hose and give the chamber shots of air from my air gun so the brake is being applied and released as would happen if you fanned the brakes. I'm sure Orren will cover this.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Thanks for the posts. I am beginning the process.

JIM

[Reagan Sirmons]

Jim, I may be too late on this comment but it relates to the removal and re-installation of the tires back on the rims. I am paranoid about my rims and recently had tires installed on the trusty Newell. The installers were somewhat careful but still damaged the rims by not covering the tire arms with cloth while installing the tires. We all spend a lot of time on these so I receommend close supervision or you may experience dents and bruises most of them being permanent. Thanks for all the info.
Reagan
Pres

[Kenneth Brewer]

Jim, I may be too late on this comment but it relates to the removal and re-installation of the tires back on the rims. I am paranoid about my rims and recently had tires installed on the trusty Newell. The installers were somewhat careful but still damaged the rims by not covering the tire arms with cloth while installing the tires. We all spend a lot of time on these so I receommend close supervision or you may experience dents and bruises most of them being permanent. Thanks for all the info.
Reagan
Pres

Amen. What he said.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I did four buy my own hand and not a mark! Feeling a little whipped I took two to a tire service and stood over them and still got a big ding and a $60.00 bill to boot. Not even an I'm sorry. They rather say you gotta expect that.

I will change the remaining two myself.

JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Are we getting old, grumpy and pessimistic, or is the quality of "professional" work just plain lousy in a lot of cases? Doesn't anyone take pride in their work?

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

After chasing special tools (sockets I did not own) I got all the parts cleaned (the bad part of the job) and removed the studs and installed the new along with a needed new seal. Set the bearing preload and backed off for a .005 free play.

Dismounted the remaining two tires and installed the sensors and remounted the tires. Mounted the wheels and took the bus out for a 30 mile test drive. Returned to the barn with no difficulties and commenced to load all of our STUFF and actually got it all in (not necessarily where it will stay, but good to go). This was yesterday.
Today we closed up the bus barn and hit the road for Lonsome Georges where we will drop the oil pan and remove the buggered old plug, change the oil, coolant filter and diesel filters, on the way to Kerrville.
We will be on the road for about seven months before returning to the bus barn.

Logged 250 miles today with no apparent difficulties with the tag seal or the drive seal and lug studs.

See You Soon, JIM & BARB :)

[Ray Davis]

great news Jim! Drive carefully, and we'll see you in Kerrville!

[HarborBus]

Job well done Jim, I look forward to meeting you in Kerrville, drive safe and good luck with that pesky oil plug.

[hobobimmer]

Way to go Jim. So glad to hear your good news. Safe and fun travels to you. See you in Kerrville! Deb and Eric