365 Tires

[charlesebrownjr]

I did an advance search for tires, wheels, and 365 tires and got nothing. I have a 98 40' XL and would like to know what you have to do to install 365's on the steer and tag axels. Thanks

[Kevin Erion]

I am of the opinion that although they look cool you will spend a lot of money and you could end up with a harsh ride.

[nrhareiner]

I cannot tell you about using them on your XL. I did change to the 365 on my XLII. My ride improved significantly since the tires allowed me to lower the pressure and remain within the correct limit for weight. With the 315 I needed 125 pounds for my weight. With the 365 it went to just over 100 pounds (I run 105).

[BenC]

According to Prevost National Service Representative and Jacksonville Tech support, there is not enough clearance in the wheel well area on an XL chassis to allow the 365 tire upgrade that is offered for XL2 and H3-45 VIP models. On the H3 VIP, shims have to be added to the steering stops, whereas the XL2 requires scraping foam out of the wheelwell but don't require steering stop adjustment. Hub stubs, lug nuts, and of course the wheels also need to be changed, as well as the consideration of hub caps and how they are mounted on the wheel, since some of the 315's were stub-piloted and some are hub-piloted. The upgraded 365's are all hub piloted.

Hope this sheds some light. We have done this procedure on one XL2 to date.

Ben Cummings
Coach Worx LLC

[James]

Ours was upgraded to the 365's by the previous owner. There is a slight shaving of the foam, hardly noticeable, in the front of the front wheel wells.

I like the lowered air pressure and the ride is great.

[charlesebrownjr]

Thanks all. When I left Prevost Fort Worth this AM, they told me there was not enough room in the fender wells just as Ben has said. Thanks again

[Denny]

What is a ballpark cost for the 365 upgrade

[charlesebrownjr]

Ryan at Prevost FW told me off the top of his head, about 3,000.00 to 3,500.00 per wheel. I think this is a little excessive considering a wheel at about 300.00, a tire for 625.00 and some cost for the shims that have been mentioned above and some labor. It might require a front end alignment if shimming the front end has some effect on alignment. This might also have included some hub or stud replacement since my wheels are the old style (hub-piloted or stud-piloted) I think that is the correct terminology.

[drmikefryer1]

http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab294/drmikefryer1/OUR%20VANHOOL%20BUS/th_VANHOOLBUS0016.jpg?t=1284530717I am a POG member but have the other kind of coach - a 45' 1999 VanHool T945 Entertainer that is very similar to the H3. It is very tall (13'6") and is very heavy like the H3. It has a DD Series 60 (500hp) with an Allison trans. We full time so we are always fully loaded, which is extra weight. I am ready to buy 8 new tires and read the comments about the 365's but I don't know anything about them and what benefit they might be? I currently have 315/80R/22.5's Where can I find info about the benefit of the 365's or is it just testimony from people who have tried them? http://s873.photobucket.com/albums/ab294/drmikefryer1/OUR%20VANHOOL%20BUS/

Thanks,
Dr. Mike Fryer & Joan

1999 VanHool T945 Entertainer 45'

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have 315 tires and have never felt compelled to re-engineer my coach.

The only real reason I can see to change tire size from what the coach design engineers specified is if your axle weights are at or above the tire weight limits. And if they are you have bigger problems than worrying about changing tire size.

Let's start with what you likely cannot do. It may be impossible to change to 365 tires on the drive axle because a pair of them on that axle (per side) is either going to create serious clearance issues, or may actually extend sideways exceeding the 102" width limit.

But the steer and tag may be able to accomodate a 365. You have to determine if you have clearance issues. It is probable you will have problems there. The clearance has to be checked with full left and right turns and full up or full down axle positions. It may not be an issue, but I suspect it will be. A 365 will carry more weight than the 9000 typically listed as a limit to the 315, and probably at lower pressure. That may improve the ride, especially over bumps such as expansion joints in the highway.

But having two sizes, neither of which is especially available at typical tire outlets creates other problems. If you are all 315 tire sizes you can always pull a tire from your tag to replace one elsewhere and put an available tire such as a 295 on the tag to keep you going until the correct size can be acquired. If you lose a 365 you have to find a tire that can fit on that wheel and that may pose a problem. If you lose a 315 from the drive you cannot pull a 365 from your tag to replace it.

Weigh you coach and each axle. That may answer your question. You need to do that anyway so you know your tire pressure requirements.

I'm a naysayer.

BTW, welcome to the asylum Dr. Mike. By having a VanHool you may be able to give us insight to a shell other than a Prevost. We don't discriminate because Tuga has a Newell and Truk has a CC Magna and we also have some Bluebirds, all of which we get ideas from.

[joelselman]

It's a piece of cake. Ride is substantially improved due to, in part, lower air pressures. Haven't tried to find one on the road in an emergency, though and can't yet speak to any wear comparison.

Wheels, tires, studs, nuts and covers must be changed. Studs knock out easily with BIG sledge hammer. Alcoa now makes a nice i-piece hub and nut cover. I have only done the ft on my '99 XLV (IFS); no shaving of the foam was done at time of installation but some is being worn away. Removal and installation of wheels is a little tricky with hard fiberglass fenders. Cost was $3000-3500 for the pair.

CAUTION: New wheels are hub piloted as opposed to the original stud piloted on the XL's. My bus (1999) had hubs suitable for hub piloted wheels already installed. Verify your hubs will accept hub piloted wheels. Not sure where the break point is...maybe disc vs drum brakes?

[Coloradobus]

Charles,

Fellow Pogger Bruce Harris better known as "0533" owned a 1999 Marathon XLV single slide he had Prevost JaX adapt the 365 tires on the steer and tag. We have not had good luck at Prevost Dallas for anything. I would call JAX. Hey check this out on the completed items on Ebay. 1995 Marathon 45'er with 445's on the drive, not being duals, and 365's on the tag.

Be sure to scroll down past all the little stuff at the top.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1995-PREVOST-XL-MARATHON-CONVERSION-W-MATCHING-TRAILER-/300486048538?pt=RVs_Campers&hash=item45f65d3b1a

[Jon Wehrenberg]

That just doesn't make sense. I understand why someone may want super singles on the drive, but 365's on the tag and 315's on the steer seems bass-ackwards, especially since Marathons tend to be nose heavy.

[Coloradobus]

BUT..........there is that heavy trailer????????ANd they aren't using load leveling equalizer bars to take some trailer hitch wieght off the back. I bet they didn't beef up the hitch for trailer either!! Ya, it is silly, tho.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

OK, lets assume the trailer is heavy. Does the tag need such a big tire if the tongue weight is 1000 pounds? How about 2000 pounds? Hard to believe the trailer would add so much weight that it wouild take it off the steers and put it on the tag. Unless the trailer was so heavy such as it might be if it was hauling Roger's wallet.

[Mark3101]

OK, lets assume the trailer is heavy. Does the tag need such a big tire if the tongue weight is 1000 pounds? How about 2000 pounds? Hard to believe the trailer would add so much weight that it wouild take it off the steers and put it on the tag. Unless the trailer was so heavy such as it might be if it was hauling Roger's wallet.

There is no way that it could take it off the steer. Way to far and with the drive and tag I don't see it even being possible. I think it would bust off the hitch first...

[jack14r]

My stacker has about 1200 LBS. on the tongue and the weigh tickets show more than 1000 LBS. less on the steering axle.I have only weighed it once with the trailer but I think that it was accurate,the bus drives like the steering axle is less.

[joelselman]

I have 455/55's super singles on the drive. I weighed each axle before installation and thought I was ok but blew a 315 tag (4 years old, 90,000 miles, 90% worn...who knows why?) within 10,000 miles of the drive tire change. I intend to reweigh rear axles shortly to see if addl weight has somehow been shifted to tag but the 455/55 diameter is very close to the 315. That's part of the reason I've decided to go to 365/70's on steer and eventually tag.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jack,

Unless your hitch and steer axle are equidistant from the tag/drive axles a 1000 pound weight on the hitch will not reduce the weight the same amount on the steer. When you do apply 1200 pounds to the hitch you do shift the CG towards the rear, but I seriously doubt if it is 1000 pounds worth.

Joel,

I freely admit to wanting to keep all my tires the same size so if one fails I can rob a replacement from the tag, or put a readily available odd size on the tag and not have to worry about getting a special tire due to the oversized rim. But what I can't understand is if weight is such an issue such large tires are required, how do you know you haven't exceeded the weight limits of air bags, brakes, bearings and other associated components. If I recall you are towing a trailer that is exceptionally heavy, likely stressing the entire coach. Maybe its the pilot in me that considers weight and balance a serious issue.

[jack14r]

Jon,I did not weigh on the same day with and without the trailer,but I have weighed the coach 4 times,each time the steering axle weight is within a range and with the trailer it is more than 1000 Lbs less.I am weighing at Cat Scales.I understand what you are saying but I think that the scales are accurate.

[joelselman]

I don't THINK weight was an issue with the blown tag tire, but I'm going to recheck. The 455/55 are rated @11000# each, 2 315's are 18000#. When I originally weighed my coach with 315's on the drive, the axle weight was about 20,500 and the tag was (from memory) about 14,000. The 315's on the tag SHOULD be more than adequate but since my first ever Michelin blowout, I'm going to re-weigh just to insure the rear axle geometry, and therefore weights, haven't changed. Drive axle weight should have decreased by 300 due to the wheel/tire change. Weights were taken without passengers, normal coach interior loading, and full fuel and water.

Incidentally, my big trailer (21000# gross) has a ft steer axle and exerts virtually 0 tongue weight.

[Denny]

I am considering changing my front tires to 365. I have a front Alcoa wheel that has a small crack from the stud hole to the hub hole of the wheel. It is not all the way through the wheel but I do not like the idea of having a crack on a wheel. Since I have to buy a new wheel I am considering going to the 365 size tire on the fronts. My front weight rating is 17,200 lbs and I weigh 16,820 lbs. Although I am well within the weight rating I carry 125 psi in the front tires resulting in a rougher ride than I would like to have. I can go to 365's and reduce the pressure to about 110 lbs. This is sure to enhance the ride.

I am only changing the front tires and wheel not the tag axle. In reviewing the previous post on this subject there have been several positive ones and a few negative ones. Since my bus is a 2002 XLII chassis I don't think there will be a clearance issue as there is with the XL. One negative is the rarity of the 365's. I plain on purchasing a used 365 and keep it in the bay for emergency use. Since my tag tires are showing some wear I will put the new front 315's on the tag and just have to worry about the drives at some point in time in the future.

I am throwing this out to the POG brain trust for comments. I am also getting out my full body armor for the negative comments so fire away.

[jack14r]

The spare is the real problem,Prevost planned for the spare to be the tag and then mount something like a 315 in that position,but if you carry a spare you have that covered.I have driven coaches with the 365 and the 315 tires I really like the 365's much better,the coach tracks better and just feels better to me,you can't go wrong making this decision.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Denny likely got that crack in his wheel because someone likely did not torque the nuts on his aluminum wheels, but instead took a 1" impact wrench and drove the nuts home with the full force of the wrench.

If you have any work done and it involves removing the wheels you should insist the person installing the wheels use the correct torque values which are to be between 450 and 500 foot pounds for dry unlubricated threads. You will likely get dirty looks and "we've always done it this way" comments but the Alcoa torque specs are available on line for anyone to see.

[travelite]

I always hand the mechanic my trusty 475 ft-lb torque stick. http://www.torquestick.com/cart/search.php?mode=search&page=1
(Type 475 in the search window). Get one with a 3/4" drive.

[garyde]

My Coach already had 365's on the front. I maintain 105 psi on the front. My Coach is not over weight on the front but within 500 lbs on one side. I just replaced the front tires this year . I had 6 years on the previous set but they still looked fine. Also, I just replaced my front factory shocks with the Koni shocks. All in all, a very smooth ride but I still have to deal with California freeways some of which are in serious decay.

[Denny]

Thanks to all for the positive information. I will place my order for new wheels and tires for the front of the bus. I have a 475 torque stick in the bus barn that now has a new home in the bus for a "just in case you don't have one" situation. Again, thanks.

[joelselman]

I concur with everybody's thumbs up...I think you'll be very happy with the 365's on the ft. I ASSUME you have hub centric wheels currently (as opposed to my oe stud centric) which should mean no stud/nut replacements.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Well not everybody. Denny is sold on the 365's and there is no doubt it will be nicer to have additional carrying capacity.

I think if I was pushing my tire weight limits 365's would at least get consideration. My reservation is the spare tire situation. As long as Denny is willing to give up space to carry a spare he has addressed that. I don't have the space for a spare so that would not be an option. It is hard to beat having 8 tires all alike because of the ability to mount good tires where they are needed most.

As to the ride.....as a tire ages it seems to get harder and noisier. If he was changing his tires and just mounted new 315's it is likely he would have a softer, quieter ride. Every time I mount new tires I enjoy the improvement, whether it is on my car or bus.

[merle&louise]

Well not everybody. Denny is sold on the 365's and there is no doubt it will be nicer to have additional carrying capacity.

I think if I was pushing my tire weight limits 365's would at least get consideration. My reservation is the spare tire situation. As long as Denny is willing to give up space to carry a spare he has addressed that. I don't have the space for a spare so that would not be an option. It is hard to beat having 8 tires all alike because of the ability to mount good tires where they are needed most.


As to the ride.....as a tire ages it seems to get harder and noisier. If he was changing his tires and just mounted new 315's it is likely he would have a softer, quieter ride. Every time I mount new tires I enjoy the improvement, whether it is on my car or bus.

Jon, when Ken Z and I traveled to Alaska I brought a 315 tire in the back of my Honda Pilot. It was a perfect fit. I put a piece of plywood on top of the tire and carried it in the back of the Pilot. The plywood allowed extra storage on top of the tire.

My point is you could carry a spare 315 in your tow car if there is no place for it in the bus!

[Denny]

I put New Michelin's on the front this past August to correct a severe pull to the right. The ride did improve and the pull was gone, but the fact that I have to carry 125 lbs pressure in the front tires is the cause of the heavy thumping in the front when I hit a bridge joint, expansion joint, rough road, etc. As to not enough room for a spare, when do we reach the point when enough is enough? We can carry everything we need to make repairs along the road and all the extra parts necessary for repairs but we can't carve out the room for an extra tire that may be more difficult to find than any of the parts and tools we carry. My Joey bed's floor is full. But in most of it I still have over a foot of room between the top of the stuff and the ceiling above it . I planned on doing exactly what Tuga suggested. Fill the wheel opening in the tire and put a piece of plywood over that and continue to use the new space created by the new false floor. This will give me more usable space than what I have now since there is a lot of empty air space above the existing containers and boxes.

[Sid Tuls]

Has anyone ever thought of putting the spare on top of the bus? I'm not saying to just throw it up there but build something to make it match what's already up there. Something low profile that would go along with the air conditioners or satellite dome. I know it would be a pain but so would it be looking for one when your broke down. I know all my bays are full and so is the back of my Tahoe with all the grandkids living out of state.

[rickdesilva]

Sid,
Just be sure that you are wearing your athletic supporter when you attempt to put that puppy on your roof as my recollection is that those Michelins are heavy. Even without the wheels !

[Sid Tuls]

Rick,
Oh I wasn't going to do that myself! Just wondering if it could work? You could roll the darn thing off--oh well maybe a bad idea. Sure funny that Prevost never thought of the importance of having a spare.

[merle&louise]

I considered putting the tire on top of my Pilot - then I found out that it weighs 165 pounds! I played hell getting it inside the Honda Pilot!

That puppy is heavy!

[garyde]

The Coach makers decided a while ago to not include spare Tires. Larger Plastic Coaches and Prevosts . It does'nt make sense to try to change a tire on the side of the road by a novice when you get into the weights of these coaches and the size of the tires. Too many ways to hurt yourself. Unless you want to carry a lot of special tools you can't even loosen the lugs!
It does make some sense to carry a spare tire with or without the rim if you have 365's on the front only. The a owner just needs to find a Truck Tire Service store to come out and replace the tire.
If you do not have a rim, then a Truck Service Center would need to Jack up your front end, take the bad tire off, take both the good and bad back into town and change it out. Then return to your coach and install it. Very few Service Centers have the ability to change a tire at your breakdown location.
Anyway you look at it it is a pain to have tire trouble, preventitive inspections and replacing older tires wil help to decrease these incidents. A puncture tire repair kit and a air compressor and hose is also a good idea.

[Denny]

Gary,
I agree with you. I do not plan on changing a tire on my bus. That is why I have road service on the bus, toad and any car I drive. I don't remember who it was but a POGer had 365's on their bus and experienced tire problems and had a difficult time locating a tire. Preventative maintenance is the best program and I fully adhere to it. I also carry a tire repair kit, compressor and have a Smarttire pressure monitor system to help avoid any problems. But we all know that "stuff happens". If I cannot plug the tire and get back on the road I will have a spare 365 that a tire company can change for me. As for the other 315's, they are more readily available or we can always revert to using the tag tires and find a suitable replacement for them temporarily. It would be more costly but beats waiting several days for a 365 to delivered.

[joelselman]

Truck road service can change tires at the location of the breakdown; they use a sledgehammer to mount/dismount. When I blew my 315 tag tire this summer, they brought me a used 295 (can't remember the aspect ratio) and 8 gallons of elc (red) coolant which was installed on the spot.

[Denny]

I just got home after having 365 tires put on the front. I drove over 300 miles across I80 and I476 in PA in very nasty weather; rain, winds and even horizontal rain at times the entire distance. I cannot believe the difference the new tires have made. My "new", 5,000 miles old, 315 cannot compare to the 365. The 365 is nearly 2.5 inches wider and I only have to carry 105 psi in them compared to 125 in the 315. The ride is much smother, less noise when hitting expansion joints and bridge joints but the greatest improvement is in the handling. The bus was far less affected by the nasty weather I was in. I would see trucks in front of me get blown by the wind so I would white knuckle the wheel in preparation of what was coming and I would go through it with little affect.

The only problem in the installation was having to carve out some of the foam so they would not rub. There was no problem in hitting the fenders; plenty of clearance.

[Jerry Winchester]

Denny,

I would echo your 365 comments after having just swapped for a coach with them. Good handling, smooth ride and not so much air. Even my neophyte stand-by driver noticed it on her trip back from Alabama.

[truk4u]

That neophyte stand-by driver isn't a neophyte anymore after saving your sorry butt while you lounged on the floor counting sheep from the drug induced coma you were in from Mobile to Houston, knocking out 500 miles without a hitch.:p I think she should have a new Ipad 2.

[grantracy]

I was told that the 365 tires won't fit on an XL only the XLII ,is that correct?

[Jerry Winchester]

GT,

While that it technically true, there was a guy on here who took a Sawzall and carved a hole in the side of his stainless Prevost for the purpose of installing a vent for an LP fridge, so I am sure there is a level of disrespect that could get a pair of 365's under an XL. Could you be that new guy?

[joelselman]

Pretty intense, Jerry. See my previous posts in this thread. I, of course, used a chainsaw.

Grantracy: they'll fit yours fine and are a major improvement.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Denny, what was the cost to convert to the 365's?
Ed

[Denny]

Hi Ed,
A good guess as to the cost to convert is between $3,000 and $3,500. I can't give you and exact cost because I had my nearly new front 315 put on the tags. I had a small crack in one of the front wheels so that meant one of the fronts had to be broken down and put on a tag wheel. Also, front sway bar bushings had to be replaced and tag shocks. With the extra work involved, it changes the labor cost. The costs for tire conversion parts are as follows:

Tires 2 @ 645
Wheels 2 @ 699
Studs 20 @ 8.59
Nuts 20 @ 4.69
Equal 2 @ 25.54

I also received a credit for the two old tag tires and the one good 315 wheel. As I previously mentioned, it is well worth the cost.

[mlien]

The best way to get a cost estimate is to call Prevost JAX and ask. I had my fronts upgraded to 365's and the estimate was $3850 per axle (May 7, 2011). I moved the 2010 315's to the tag and replaced the drives with new 315's. Some additional advantages that have not been mentioned are: 1. Overall safety margin - 105 PSI is further away from max tire pressure than is 125 PSI. Roads get hot in the summer and tire pressure can raise a bunch. 2. I prefer to fill my own tires while on the road. I have no problem filling to 105 PSI from either my aux or primary compressor. I could not fill to 125 PSI. The enhanced stability created by the 365's makes the coach steer better and therefore makes the coach safer. For me, safety margin is far more important than just squeaking by with the factory limits.
As far as getting a spare 365 in the event of a puncture; I can't worry about everything, I'll cross that bridge if it I come to it.

[Coloradobus]

Grantracy, Remember Bruce Harris witha 1999 XL 45 single Rogue Slide Marathon Coach 0533, which was Bruce's POG handle, "0533"?
Do a search for posts from 0533 and use the 365's as a term as well. 0533, when we saw it 2 years ago in Titusville TGO mini POG where the shuttle didn't go, has 365's on the front, and new longer studs were being created if I remember correctly for the tag to have 365's too. I think Prevost JAX did the work.

[cthalfman]

It's a piece of cake. Ride is substantially improved due to, in part, lower air pressures. Haven't tried to find one on the road in an emergency, though and can't yet speak to any wear comparison.

Wheels, tires, studs, nuts and covers must be changed. Studs knock out easily with BIG sledge hammer. Alcoa now makes a nice i-piece hub and nut cover. I have only done the ft on my '99 XLV (IFS); no shaving of the foam was done at time of installation but some is being worn away. Removal and installation of wheels is a little tricky with hard fiberglass fenders. Cost was $3000-3500 for the pair.

CAUTION: New wheels are hub piloted as opposed to the original stud piloted on the XL's. My bus (1999) had hubs suitable for hub piloted wheels already installed. Verify your hubs will accept hub piloted wheels. Not sure where the break point is...maybe disc vs drum brakes?

Waking up an old post here, but I noticed while viewing the Alcoa wheel catalog that they make a stud piloted 22.5" x 12.5" wheel part number 823051 (polished outside). With the availability of this wheel is there a reason that anybody putting 365's on an older XL with stud piloted hubs and studs would switch over to longer studs and hub piloted wheels? I do not have any current plans to go with 365's but would like to know if it would be an option to simply purchase a couple of 823051's when I am ready to replace the steer tires?