send me HOT pictures

[Washington]

we need to redo the interior of our prevost. I have a different vision for ours than most of the pictures i have seen. Talking cosmetics only here. Basically i am not a gold, mirrors, frilly, christmas lights along the trim kind of girl. I want it to look more industrial. Think diner or harley or even a boat. PLEASE send me pictures of your smokin prevost so i can give the remodeler some inspiration. thank you!

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

What conversion do you have? XL, XLII, or H-3? That will help us.
Sandy

[rfoster]

No gold, mirrors, christmas lights? You just culled out all the Libertys.

[Gary Carmichael]

Well I at least took the lighted owls off my awning,the trivoli reflected off of them and took away from the neon. would not be the same without the glitter.

[Kenj]

7175
we need to redo the interior of our prevost. I have a different vision for ours than most of the pictures i have seen. Talking cosmetics only here. Basically i am not a gold, mirrors, frilly, christmas lights along the trim kind of girl. I want it to look more industrial. Think diner or harley or even a boat. PLEASE send me pictures of your smokin prevost so i can give the remodeler some inspiration. thank you!

Here's one. I have more if you like.

[BoaterAl]

Try This company has entertainer coaches with more function then glitz. Another web site has interior pics of nearly every bus for sale.

[Kenneth Brewer]

No gold, mirrors, christmas lights? You just culled out all the Libertys.

It starts already.

[jack14r]

Also the Marathon site has pictures from the last 10 years under their gallery tab in the used coach section.

[Will Garner]

Hum, hard to imagine someone named Washington not wanting a harlot mobile! Looks like the King of Bling can rest easy on this one.

[BoaterAl]

I posted a simple response to a member. Being unaware that the mention of 2 companies are none advertisers now have deleted from my message. #6 above
Disappointed
AL

[travelite]

I posted a simple response to a member. Being unaware that the mention of 2 companies are none advertisers now have deleted from my message. #6 above
Disappointed
AL

Al,

I'm disappointed too. Can you PM me with the Converters names. I share Washington's tastes.

Thanks

[Ray Davis]

Since when are we not allowed to mention converter names? I don't recall that being an issue in the past?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I agree with the above posts. Any time we are having a legitimate discussion about features, systems, suppliers, service shops, converters, etc. it seems appropriate we mention names and contact information if needed. I believe the exception to this would be posts designed to sell or promote a company solely for that purpose. I don't think it is fair to say "everybody needs to buy their coaches from XXXX", but I think it is fair to say in response to a question "I have a Marathon and I am pleased with the understated decor and the quality of the coach". (I specifically used the name of a non-sponsor converter to make a point.)

In the context of the question that started this thread it seems pictures or descriptions of conversions with the converter's names is a legitimate response even if the converter is not an advertiser. I got the sense the question was not intended to steer people towards a converter, but to give the POG member ideas for a renovation or upgrade they would do themselves.

But this is just my opinion and I don't own or run this site.

[BoaterAl]

David, Jon, Ray, for posting your opinion on this unfortunate censorship of a message yesterday. If I have offended any current advertiser by using the names of non advertisers was totally unintended. Having posted 100's of messages on the Country Coach for about 10 years the moderator would post a message of caution. Never, do I recall any deletes of there original message. Doing this and then sending me a private message to justify the action. well " no comment".
We are on the list for Kerrville and will not be attending, my wife just stared at me in disbelief this morning and we own a coach of a non advertiser, we are not welcome at this rally ? Enough said.
AL

[Washington]

Al, This is Washington. Could you PM me with the Converters names? Thank you.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Lots of thin skin newbys.
Ed

[Will Garner]

BoaterAl,

Go on to Kerrville and give 'em heck! I think you will find it to be a really interesting group and they will share their thoughts with you freely and for free. Shame to be so close yet so far away. Its a lose - lose situation if you pull out. I don't agree with censorship either but then it is not my board so I don't make the rules. If you do change your mind and go, I assure you it will be fun. Oh one word of caution, watch out for sheep and the taco twins!

That's my 2 cents, they don't even have a cents key on keyboards anymore.

[Washington]

awesome! yes please. do you have any pics of ones on a beer budget? we do not have tons to put into it

[LarryB]

Al, just come on to Kerrville and sort it out with the folks in person.
We "Plastic Shield" guys need all the support we can muster.

[garyde]

Unfortunate occurance BoaterAl. We have been here before but not everyone knows that. I wouldve prefered someone say something on a reply rather than just delete something. It works great when everyone is up front with whats going on.
Members on this site are gracious and helpful so I hope you do decide to make it to the rally.

[James]

Is there a list of converters whose name we are restricted from using?

Since my coach is not one of our sponsors does that mean I can't mention Marathon in a text or recommend them?

Just trying to understand the rules.

[JIM KELLER]

James, I don't think there are to many " Rules." I do know when something gets censored it was because more good will result than bad. The Webmaster works hard for all of us. Sometimes we don't know " The rest of the story " and it is better to just move on and enjoy the assets of POG.

[travelite]

Is there a list of converters whose name we are restricted from using?

Since my coach is not one of our sponsors does that mean I can't mention Marathon in a text or recommend them?

Just trying to understand the rules.

I'm not aware of a list, but maybe we can come up with a set of code words. :)

[James]

I'm not aware of a list, but maybe we can come up with a set of code words. :)

Perhaps "D" for Diamond, "M" for Marathon, "S" for Stanley etc. And I'm always curious about the "rest of the story".

[travelite]

Perhaps "D" for Diamond, "M" for Marathon, "S" for Stanley etc. And I'm always curious about the "rest of the story".

Or we could slightly misspell the offenders: Staley becoms Stanley, Country Coach becomes Country Conch, Marathon becomes Maranone...

[James]

I can handle misspelling.

[BoaterAl]

When I posted a response to another member I had no idea that I would become a victim of censorship due to the frustration of this site ownership as it turns out "non sponsors/advertiser".

Short take on this subject. I have been in contact with James at Xtreme Paint and Graphics in Nacogdoches,TX. We have had 4 or 5 phone conversations on a headlight up grade on my 2005 xxxxxx XL II. We have agreed on the type of up grade, located the paint code for exact coach match and price agreed of $2500.00. I was to remove and pack both headlight assemblies for shipment to James this week.
I will call James on Monday and cancel the order. I believe.... J.S...... he is one of your advertisers.
AL

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Al,

Two wrongs do not make a right. James is blameless in this unfortunate situation yet you are punishing him.

Jim Skiff is a reasonable person who has done a great deal for POG. If he made an error in judgment it is fair to "beat up on him", but hurting someone who does not have a dog in the fight is just wrong. I have been censored and when it happens Jim Skiff and I discuss it. That ends the problem, whether I agree or not.

There isn't a single one of us who hasn't screwed up. When it happens we just move on.

[truk4u]

Al,

Why the vindictive post? If your pissed off at Skiff over the censorship deal, why would you take it out on a POG Sponsor who is going to do an upgrade for you? If you think this will cause financial harm to Skiff by losing a Sponsor, your sadly mistaken, James at Extreme will see this ploy for exactly what it is and probably agree that he didn't need your business anyway.

With all due respect, you and I have e-mailed back and forth regarding my CC and I have explained how I saw the censor thing and I thought it was all history. If your intent with the latest post is to try to cause harm to POG or Skiff, you may want to think about moving on to another forum.

Sorry big guy, that's just the way I see it!

[garyde]

I can't think of any subject more contentious on this forum than the censorship issue. We have debated this for several years . Several people who felt strongly about this have regrettably left the Forum.
The issue has always been about promoting, advertising, or offering Services inadverdantly or directly by members .
By now it should be clear this forum is not a Blog site , nor is it a 1st amendment site.
There are rules although not many in my opinion.
Some will think ,' Hey, there's someone monitoring my posts who has control over content'
No kidding.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This is just a general comment regarding this site as viewed through my eyes. I am not an owner, do not have any special access or treatment, and want to just be a member and contributor.

We have had censorship ever since this site was developed and on the Prevost Stuff site before that. These were and are private sites and the owner of the site has the freedom to do as he chooses. Rarely does Jim Skiff interfere or censor. When he does it is usually justified. I have been censored. Once I was censored for mentioning another Prevost site. I got over it real fast because in the overall scheme of things it was no big deal. As Gary points out we have very few rules as can be seen by the crudeness of some of our posts. But there is one rule or circumstance that I see as a guaranteed way to bring about censorship and that is to promote business on this site as a member and not a sponsor. Let me explain. Sponsors pay a lot of money to advertise and participate on this site. Our rallies are excellent as a result of participation by our sponsors. They attend, they put on seminars, they treat us to meals, they bring their products for us to look at and they are available to answer any and all questions. So they not only pay a lot of money to get their names on the web site, they spend serious money to participate in our rallies.

But we have had folks try to be suppliers or service companies or support (for a price) for our buses, not bey being sponsors, but by just buying a one year membership and then developing customer lists from the membership list and by posting or advertising on the threads. That's probably OK if the product or services is very limited and does not compete with a sponsor, but if it does Jim Skiff is in danger of losing sponsors, and we also will lose that sponsor support from the site and at our rallies. This issue is not clearly defined so when one of us crosses the line it is a judgment call as to whether the post remains or if it gets modified or deleted.

Doing so is not an indication of malice. It is solely a reaction from Jim or a moderator such as Truk and if you as the poster disagree send an email, a PM or phone to see what the problem is.

But please don't take it to heart. Sometimes all of us posts something we wish we hadn't or wish we had said differently. We make mistakes. In this instance if Jim messed up cut him the same slack others cut us when we make a bad post. Just my opinion.

Before there is any discussion about POG and Jim Skiff I hope everyone realizes how much he does in the background unknown to a lot of folks. Think of Jim as our paid administrator. Our dues pay him to maintain the site, arrange rallies, get sponsors so we have direct access to them and get the benefit of their participation on this site. He makes POG happen. Anyone can create a site and do it for free, but one thing is an absolute certainty, and that every one of us benefits to a much greater extent than the $100 is costs us to be here, in the form of information sharing and the expertise of the participating sponsors.

I'll step down from the soap box now.

[Woody]

WELL SAID!

[ajducote]

1. What Jon said!

2. Cost to join POG $100

3. Information gained, lesson learned, friendships made, fun at rallies, the collective knowledge of all the members and sponsors: PRICELESS

4. The occasional problem with the very few rules on the forum: a very MINOR issue, not worth getting worked up about

[Denny]

Amen. I agree Jon, let's move on and enjoy the many positive benefits of POG.

[JIM KELLER]

Thanks Jon. Very well said.

[rfoster]

Jim Skiff: Good Job - keep it up
I agree with Jon and Andre.
Everytime someone gets mad and jumps ship - I get their food at the rallies.

[JIM KELLER]

Jim Skiff: Good Job - keep it up
I agree with Jon and Andre.
Everytime someone gets mad and jumps ship - I get their food at the rallies.
Just what I thought you would do ! Go behind my back and get all the food for yourself.

[GDeen]

...I just wish someone would have stopped me from eating that 3rd lobster on Cabbage Island.....wasn't as good coming back the other way.

[Yankee802]

Just skimming this thread and it looks like it got off topic, so I thought I'd try to get it back on track and post my interior, we LOVE ours. :)

718971907191

[Washington]

Washington here. Thanks Yankee802!

[BoaterAl]

Well this just makes my blood boil.
Having just viewed the post from a POG member (Yankee802) who owns a Marathon and also uses the official corporate seal of Marathon Corp. in every one of his sign off's has not been censored. Neither before or after your alteration of my message.
AL

[Yankee802]

Huh? I'm sorry, did I do something wrong? I didn't edit anyone's post, and I didn't know there was a problem with my sig, so I'm confused.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Well this just makes my blood boil.
Having just viewed the post from a POG member (Yankee802) who owns a Marathon and also uses the official corporate seal of Marathon Corp. in every one of his sign off's has not been censored. Neither before or after your alteration of my message.
AL

Al,

When we have issues we discuss them. Sometimes the discussions get a little warm, sometimes we get a little bent out of shape and sometimes we get pissed.

You are obviously pissed. But we are sitting here without a clue as to what happened. If you could share perhaps it might be instrumental in changing a policy, or Jim's mind, or clarifying what happened so we know and will not repeat the hanging offense you may have done.

Can you share with us? I seriously doubt if displaying a Marathon logo or mentioning a converter's name is the sole reason you were censored. We encourage people to put their converter in the signature line so obviously a lot more converters than the ones who advertise here are mentioned in posts in the signature line. We all may agree with you, or we may be able to help you understand what happened. And come to Kerrville. My wife and I want ot see Maddie, the Marathon maiden.

[Orren Zook]

Al,

Over the years I've had some posts deleted here too, and I have to admit, at that time I didn't understand the reason either. But as Jon and others have suggested get to a rally and meet some of the members in person - this is really a great group of people who enjoy the Prevost lifestyle and want others to share their enthusiasm. Jim works hard to make this whole deal work for all of us and I'm sure at times is walking a fine line trying to keep both the members and sponsors happy.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Al, come to the rally.

JIM ;)

[BoaterAl]

First an apology to Yankee802 as you have just posted the same frustration as I felt when "I didn't know what I had done wrong". I will post the two items Jim Skiff deleted from my message #6 on this thread. Here is the original post.....
. Try this company www.staleycoach.com has entertainer coaches with more function then glitz. Another web site www.marathoncoach.com has interior pics.of nearly every bus for sale.
You can refer to #6 message and see that the censored part was the reference to the two (2) companies.
Now here is the private message in its entire unedited content I received;
AL, We need to get Marathon on board and I have spent countless hours trying to do so. We can't give them a free URL on the forum. We want to promote them but with other sponsors paying to be onboard. I can't allow it. Staley is a ditto. I have contacted them over the years and they refuse to be a sponsor. Russell Coach is the only entertainer who has stepped up to the plate and became a sponsor. please call me to discuss at....deleted #. I look forward to meeting you in Kerrville. JIM
Of course Jon, I'm upset names censored and then ask for forgiveness is just kid stuff. When I joined, I know it's not a good idea to do or say things you will regret. I believe I was only helping another member to get ideas for redecorating there coach. I never knew this site existed until I talked to a Prevost owner 6 months ago when we went shopping for a bus.
Another thing is both of these companies are staying in business during the RV down turn. One is the largest purchaser of shells from a company which this web site obtains part of it's name. How can one person take it upon itself to censor those names. If I had slammed the companies fine then I should be censored. I maintain I did nothing wrong and Jim Skiff's message washing due to being turned down for advertising/sponsor was news to me.
If there are rules or better yet suggestions lets get them up front. Members have e-mailed and PM with comments being unaware of advertiser/sponsor posting rules.
AL

[Sid Tuls]

Very well said Al sure hope all this can be taken care of.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Al,

Unless your last post is censored you said what you attempted to say earlier. Personally I see nothing wrong with what you posted, but I understand the position Jim took on this. We have no clue what he is going through behind the scenes trying to work with sponsors so we have to trust his judgment and understand that there may be times when we can do and say stuff, and others when it might not be appropriate. We (POG members) have been shunned by Marathon although Marathon is well represented in this group. It would be nice to see them participate because owners benefit greatly by having them at rallies and even answering questions on the forum from time to time. I know Jim has been trying to get them aboard for a long time.

Put this behind you. Come to the rally and meet Jim. You will understand when you see him in action how hard he works on our behalf and when he censors us (rarely) he usually has a reason. And we may not agree with that reason, but it's his call. He really is a good guy.

[truk4u]

OK boys and girls, Al has reposted what got censored. You can agree or disagree with Jim's motive to remove any non-sponsor promoting within the site due to loyalty to the existing Sponsor's that make this Forum and Prevost-Stuff exist, but that's his prerogative.

You can also understand Al's view that a big Yellow Logo of Marathon as part of Yankee's signature serves the same purpose as his link to Marathon. We could debate that until the sheep come home, but we all have better things to do.

So lets just move forward, put this behind us and if you want to offer a non-sponsor link or atta boy, just do it by PM or e-mail and life will be good.

Al, we'll see you at the Rally and have a big laugh and hope you have talked to James!:)

[Yankee802]

Should I remove the little Marathon graphic from my sig?

[garyde]

Marathon is an enigma. What Company wouldn't want a direct line to customers who want and use their products.

[flloyd]

I feel obligated to chime in here because like the Skiffer, I too run a website for a living. My website has 400,000 registered users and over 100 paid advertisers. The site has been up for about 15 years and there is rarely a situation that we haven't experienced at one time or another.

Unlike Jim's industry, which has only a relative few potential advertising customers, my industry has hundreds. Many large companies, which could benefit from my site, don't advertise with me and it doesn't make any sense, from my perspective. After all, I have the number one website in my industry with the largest audience available. How could they not advertise?

Well, they have their reasons and in some cases they simply don't understand or appreciate internet advertising. I don't fight them and I don't treat them any differently. I don't give them free advertising either, no matter how big they are. I do allow my users to mention them, in both praise and condemnation, as long as they have no personal interest in the company. This is true for all suppliers, regardless of their advertiser status.

My users, on the other hand, are very difficult to corral, much like herding cats. Censoring them is fraught with some risk and in general, we only censor for profanity, hate speech, and taunting. Sometimes, a user will trash one of our paid advertisers and this can be tricky. We can't just silence someone for speaking the truth about a vendor. The problem is, "what is the truth?". There are always two sides to every story and so we usually have to let the complete story flush itself out before we take action, if any. Usually, other members will chime in to defend the vendor, or agree with the original poster. On balance, things tend to even out and problems do get solved. It's worth noting that our premier advertisers seldom have to deal with this sort of thing as they already know the value of keeping their customers happy to begin with.

Sometimes, vendors have to jump in and defend themselves. I view this as a perfect example of a free market in action. There have been cases that have gone over the top where a user, who was clearly in the wrong or had unrealistic expectations, had to be censored. It takes a clear head to know when to pull the plug and sometimes the choice is far from black and white.

One thing that bears note is that if we start censoring our users for voicing opinions regarding our paid advertisers then our credibility and neutrality risks being called into question. The site exists for the benefit of the users first, even though it is supported by the advertisers. In the end, advertisers come and go but the users will always be there. They are the legacy of the site, not the advertisers.

In the end, a website isn't a democracy. The free speech rights are held by the site operator, not its users. Users often fail to realize this. I've been threatened many times with legal action over censoring user posts, which makes me laugh. No lawyer has ever called me on behalf of an angry user.

So, I know exactly what Jim is facing, and can vouch 100% for the fact that it's often more complicated that it appears to manage all the competing interests in this type of website. Jim is doing a good job and only he knows which decisions are best for his site.

[rfoster]

Well said Floyd.

Sometimes I think Jim is good at this as he was a former school teacher and the forum is not unlike a bunch of school kids with hormones that don't know what they are gonna be when they grow up.

Courious- what industry are you webbing about?

[dmatz]

If you do not like a lot of the Vegas glitz you may want to speak to Dan at royal phoenix they are the engineers that built the oral coaches. It appears ten upgrades theta have done are very good.

[Yankee802]

Floyd,

Thank you for your post, it was very informative and helpful to me. Even though you were talking about this forum and this thread specifically, it helped me understand the issues I had at ECF (Electronic Cigarette Forum) and the cencoring that was/is being done. Back when that issued had taken place, I almost posted a thread here, if only to vent. Maybe I should have, then you could have helped me understand sooner. :)

[merle&louise]

Well said Floyd.

Sometimes I think Jim is good at this as he was a former school teacher and the forum is not unlike a bunch of school kids with hormones that don't know what they are gonna be when they grow up.

Courious- what industry are you webbing about?

Hey Roger,

Do you know how to make a hormone - rub her leg!

[Jim Skiff]

Washington,

My friends Tim & Cathy Hodgdon make the finest sailing yachts in the world.
Check out some of their work here: http://www.hodgdon-interiors.com/portfolio.shtml
They may give you inspiration for an interior.

Jim

[HarborBus]

Wow Jim, those are some beautimus interiors and woodwork. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$