Total Generator Failure

[jack14r]

I was inverting the night of 8-21 with the bedroom AC running and the generator auto start sensed the start voltage and the generator started at about 3 AM.I awoke and activated the other 3 AC units,at that moment the bedroom unit shut down,so I shut down the other 3 and the the bedroom unit started again,it all seemed ok so I went to the panel and one leg had 108 volts and the other had 140 volts.The gen would seem to correct the voltage and I would try to start another AC but it could not put out enough current.I was going to Louisville Ky for the week and so I called Nixon Power and they met me in Louisville,their rate for Sunday is $250 per hour and 4 hours minimum.The Technician did a good job but they did not have the needed controller,it was ordered on Monday and arrived on Tuesday.My real problem was that I was at the KY State Fair dry camping and so I had no choice but to find a generator,after searching around town the largest that we could buy on Sunday was a 8000 watt Generac.I wired it up and we had power,I felt like that we were on life support,I could run 2 AC units,charge the house batteries at the lowest setting and run the water pump or the water heater.On Tuesday Mike from Nixon had controller in hand and did a great job of figuring out the problem,first he replaced the SCR and we ran the generator and it failed in about 30 minutes,then he replaced the controller and started the gen again,we had voltage at the gen but not in the house.The failed controller apparently sent a voltage spike to the transfer switch and took out the coil in the transfer switch.I thought that was the problem so I called Troy at Liberty and we pulled some fuses in the transfer panel and plugged the shore cord into the buddy plug and we had power to the house but not to the AC units.Troy had me put in the two bottom fuses in the transfer panel and that sort of fixed it,we were now inverting on one leg and the other side had current from the gen.I could now run 3 AC units.We ran like that the rest of the week.When I got home I replaced the coil in the transfer switch and everything is working again.I know that Liberty has inverter bypass switches in the transfer panel and I did not try them because I did not want to upset anything.I do still have one concern,I had 116 hours on the new control panel when I got home,I serviced the gen and then I had 3.9 hours on the control panel,Bill at Liberty Chicago is checking on this for me,I think that I really want another new controller.

[jack14r]

Bill checked on the time on the controller,and he told me that Kohler was aware of this glitch but they did not know how to fix it but when they did they would contact us and replace the controller again.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

With that in mind, is Liberty dropping the Kohler generators until they make a reliable product? What vintage Kohlers are affected or are all potential problems?

It's bad enough when something breaks, but when it takes out other equipment or devices when it does fail that makes that failure intolerable.

[jack14r]

The glitch only affected the digital hour meter in the control panel on the generator,the reliability as I understand it is not affected,only the hour meter.I think that all of the EORD and EORZD series have the same controller.It will be interesting to see how long it takes for them to fix the problem and then get parts into their servicing dealers hands.I will post when I hear something.

[merle&louise]

My generator slowed down in rpm and then speeded up again several times, so I shut it down. I checked the oil level & water in radiator and both appeared normal. It started right up again and ran for about 30 minutes then did the same thing. But the second time it stopped producing electricity, so I shut it down and came home using the dash AC (which wasn't too bad!).

The generator is a 20 KW Kohler. It ran fine all weekend (tailgating LSU) and this morning when we left to drive home it started acting up. I am within about 100 hours of an oil and filter change so I'll see if that could be the problem.

It sounds to me like an engine problem that occurs when a load is applied (like an AC cycling on).

We were fortunate that it happened after the partying was over.

Any ideas?

[Woody]

It sounds like a fuel filter problem.

[jack14r]

I agree,change the fuel filter.

[dreamchasers]

My generator slowed down in rpm and then speeded up again several times, so I shut it down. I checked the oil level & water in radiator and both appeared normal. It started right up again and ran for about 30 minutes then did the same thing. But the second time it stopped producing electricity, so I shut it down and came home using the dash AC (which wasn't too bad!).

The generator is a 20 KW Kohler. It ran fine all weekend (tailgating LSU) and this morning when we left to drive home it started acting up. I am within about 100 hours of an oil and filter change so I'll see if that could be the problem.

It sounds to me like an engine problem that occurs when a load is applied (like an AC cycling on).

We were fortunate that it happened after the partying was over.

Any ideas?

Tuga,

The symptoms you have described is exactly the same as I experienced with my generator a couple of months ago. My issue was the electric fuel pump was faulty. My generator will not run unless the electric is priming the main fuel injection pump. I replaced the electric fuel pump and all is fine.

Hector

[merle&louise]

Hector,

It's good to hear from you again. Thanks for the post. I kind of thought that it might be the fuel pump, but I wasn't sure.

I will order one tomorrow and I'll post if that fixes the problem.

Thanks again,

[GDeen]

Might as well jump in with my own problem. Last weekend while dry camping at the OU FSU game, my generator shut down at 10:30 PM. It was very hot so I had been keeping an eye on temps and the voltage, etc. Even had the bus aired up to max height on level low to ensure good air flow under to the radiator. Let it cool down and it still would not re-start. Runs for a second and shuts down. Steve B was kind enough to take a call from me and we checked several things to no avail. Good coolant level, good connections on everything, checked some fuses, belt good, basically everything we could think of.

Nothing like spooling up all your tailgating stuff at midnight and moving to a remote lot. Ran the big engine on high idle and OTR all night. Next morning, a very generous gentleman walked all the way out to the edge of the overflow lot where we were parked and offered us an extra 50 amp spot. As is the case with most RV spots at big football programs, there is a long waiting list for the electrical spots.

I put in new fuel filter, new fuel pump in Dec, and had just changed the oil and filter ahead of the trip. Had about 25 hrs on the oil change and interestingly enough, while it was on the lift at Prevost 2 days before the problem, I took a close look at the radiator with a flashlight and it looked very clean. Temps would run up to 200+/-, and the high speed fan would kick in and drop water back down to 185 in short order. Pretty typical of the way it has always run for me.

Kohler 20 KW with Yanmar engine and 3525 hrs. Seems like some sort of a sensor or sender is bad. Spoke with Rick May and he is going to walk me through a few checks when I can get some time to run out to the barn.

Any other ideas?

[GDeen]

Tuga, if you kick off the output load breaker does it settle down? I had a similar problem last fall and it was a speed controller along with a attenuator adjustment for lack of a better description. Under load it would start chasing itself up and down with RPM and vibrate. The speed control and other adjustment cured it.

[merle&louise]

Gordon,

I am going to change the fuel pump since Lee's problem was identical to mine. It is 12 years old and as a preventative maintenance item I feel it needs to be replaced with a new one. If changing the fuel pump doesn't do the job I will have a generator repair shop try to adjust the speed controller as you suggested. Thanks for the help.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'm not saying the fuel pump is the culprit, but mine did what Tuga described and the fuel pump cured it. At the time someone mentioned the fuel pumps on the Kohler were a problem.

[GDeen]

Certainly the easiest quickest way to attempt a fix...

[merle&louise]

I ordered a Kohler fuel pump this morning. Should have it in about 2 weeks. I was glad to be able to obtain a factory part instead of an aftermarket. I know they cost a little more, but I always feel better with OEM parts.

Thanks for all of the help. Once again POG to the rescue!

[GDeen]

Might as well jump in with my own problem. Last weekend while dry camping at the OU FSU game, my generator shut down at 10:30 PM. It was very hot so I had been keeping an eye on temps and the voltage, etc. Even had the bus aired up to max height on level low to ensure good air flow under to the radiator. Let it cool down and it still would not re-start. Runs for a second and shuts down. Steve B was kind enough to take a call from me and we checked several things to no avail. Good coolant level, good connections on everything, checked some fuses, belt good, basically everything we could think of.

Nothing like spooling up all your tailgating stuff at midnight and moving to a remote lot. Ran the big engine on high idle and OTR all night. Next morning, a very generous gentleman walked all the way out to the edge of the overflow lot where we were parked and offered us an extra 50 amp spot. As is the case with most RV spots at big football programs, there is a long waiting list for the electrical spots.

I put in new fuel filter, new fuel pump in Dec, and had just changed the oil and filter ahead of the trip. Had about 25 hrs on the oil change and interestingly enough, while it was on the lift at Prevost 2 days before the problem, I took a close look at the radiator with a flashlight and it looked very clean. Temps would run up to 200+/-, and the high speed fan would kick in and drop water back down to 185 in short order. Pretty typical of the way it has always run for me.

Kohler 20 KW with Yanmar engine and 3525 hrs. Seems like some sort of a sensor or sender is bad. Spoke with Rick May and he is going to walk me through a few checks when I can get some time to run out to the barn.

Any other ideas?

Since this is a resource and it is always good to post results, I was able to fix the generator problem today. Was headed out to the barn this afternoon to start checking some of the sensing units under the assumption that I might have tripped an overheat condition, and they stayed open or closed. Was also going to start checking voltage to the control panel, etc.

Talked to Steve Bennett and he suggested I pull the front panel and look for an inline fuse that he recently had a problem with on another coach.

Pulled the panel apart and checked the fuse for continuity - no joy. Was an 8 am slow burn which I didn't have, but stuck a 10 amp in and we are back up and running! Buttoned up the front cover and will go back and replace with the proper slow burn fuse. Sometimes the littlest things can shut you down. Thanks for the suggestion Steve!

[merle&louise]

Gordon,

Glad you found your problem. It's nice when it is a simple fix. My gen has been running a little on the hot side (about 210) with 95 degree ambient temps this past weekend at LSU. My parking site has a 2X2 drain so the generator (in front of coach) is about 2" off of the concrete. Not exactly ideal conditions for running 4 compressors, Louise cooking, and all of our other tailgating crap. We have been tailgating in this spot for about 5 years and this is the first time the temps have gotten this high.

So I removed my radiator this afternoon and am bringing it to a radiator shop to have it cleaned and tested. I ran the generator with the radiator cap off and watched the anti-freeze/water moving around. It was not flowing, it was just moving around and bubbling a little. I did this to test the water pump and it looks to me like the water pump is not making the water FLOW at a good clip.

My next test will be to test the thermostat and see if it opens when sitting in a pot of boiling water. I may just change it out since I have a new spare.

If both the radiator and the thermostat pass mustard - I guess the only other culprit could be the WATER PUMP!

Any other thoughts or opinions will be appreciated!

[Danss]

Trade up Tuga! Its nothing several hundred thousand dollars won't cure!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Tuga,

Unless the generator is hot and the thermostat is open it is unlikely you would have seen any vigorous flow when you looked in the radiator. Before condeming the water pump make sure the thermostat is functioning and the radiator has good flow.

I am assuming the radiator fan is pulling air.

[merle&louise]

Jon,

I removed the radiator and am bringing it to a shop this morning for a good cleaning and thorough testing. I also removed the thermostat last night and tested it in a pot of boiling water; it opened!

The exhaust air that comes out of the bottom of the generator compartment is strong, so I don't think it is an air movement problem.

When I get the radiator back from the shop, I will install it, fill with new anti-freeze and install a new thermostat and then see what happens.

I remember back when I had my Bertram 38' w/Cummins diesels, I removed the radiator (cold) and started the engine. When the thermostat opened there was a nice FLOW of water in one direction that was visiable thru the radiator neck. I would assume that meant that the water and thermostat were working properly. That is what I was trying to test here.

Another possibility: my generator exhaust pipe and my Aqua Hot exhaust pipe both exhaust thru the roof thru the same pipe. While tailgating we noticed a black soot coming from the exhaust pipe on the roof. I changed my Aqua Hot fuel nozzle and filter after I got home thinking the soot might be coming from the old fuel nozzle. I climbed up on the roof and felt the exhaust coming out of the pipe and it was a strong flow of hot air. Do you think that the exhaust pipe could have been clogged with soot and that was causing the high operating temps?

[GDeen]

Tuga,

Does you genset have a 2 speed cooling fan? I can watch temps on mine creep up over 200 and then the high speed fan kicks in and in short order drops temps back down to ~ 185-190. Leon at Marathon told me this 2nd speed is set to come on at 208 deg F.

[merle&louise]

Tuga,

Does you genset have a 2 speed cooling fan? I can watch temps on mine creep up over 200 and then the high speed fan kicks in and in short order drops temps back down to ~ 185-190. Leon at Marathon told me this 2nd speed is set to come on at 208 deg F.

Gordon,

My unit has a squirrell cage blower in the first bay next to the generator. It blows air thru the generator compartment and it exhausts the air out of the bottom of the generator compartment. There is a strong volume of air coming out of the bottom of the generator compartment so I don't think that the fan is the problem. It has worked for the last 4 years tailgating, so I believe that my problem lies elsewhere. This is the 1st year that it has run this hot.

Thanks for the help.

[GDeen]

Gordon,

My unit has a squirrell cage blower in the first bay next to the generator. It blows air thru the generator compartment and it exhausts the air out of the bottom of the generator compartment. There is a strong volume of air coming out of the bottom of the generator compartment so I don't think that the fan is the problem. It has worked for the last 4 years tailgating, so I believe that my problem lies elsewhere. This is the 1st year that it has run this hot.

Thanks for the help.

Mine has the same, only difference is, when the temp gets up to 208, the fan clicks into warp drive and really pulls the air through. Just wondering if you have the same setup and your 2nd speed isn't kicking in??

[merle&louise]

Gordon,

Mine does NOT have the same setup. As far as I know there is only one speed on the blower and it is constant. Also, I have VDO analog gauges, so I don't know EXACTLY what temps are. I purchased a non contact infared thermometer today so I can obtain real numbers.

I spoke with Newell today and they told me to check for air leaks around the front of the generator compartment door, loose belts, and also to verify the accuracy of the VDO gauge by using a non contact infared thermometer. John Clark w/Newell also said getting the radiator checked was a good first step. As soon as I get the radiator back from the shop, I am going to do those 3 things that they suggested.

While I was typing this the radiator shop called: they found 2 leaks in the radiator. The mechanic told me that a tube was leaking and another leak was found in the top tank where a 3/8" hole was made for a mechanical temp gauge. He fixed both leaks by soldering them. Next he will remove the top tank and "rod" all of the tubes to make sure none are clogged up. He assured me after this all is done the radiator will be like new. I am certain that this was my problem all along, but we'll see!

[merle&louise]

Trade up Tuga! Its nothing several hundred thousand dollars won't cure!

Hey Dan,

What is it that you always say, "These buses are not for the faint of heart"

I think will fix these 2 problems for under a grand; hope so anyhow!

And speaking of trading up; it's almost your turn. Jo told me that she would really like a bus with SLIDES !!!!

Come on and step up to the plate. Mississippi just passed a new law; no sales tax on a SLIDE bus!

[jack14r]

Since I had a electrical failure of my Kohler generator back in August I thought that my problems would be behind me,but as luck would have it I have either a turbo failure or a exhaust failure of some sort,the gen started to puff some diesel smoke on Thursday,so I ran it as little as possible and by Saturday morning it was leaving soot in the generator bay and was obviously about to totally fail.I was lucky that I was at a race and had my transporter with a 10K Onan that I could plug into,I made it through the weekend but now have to deal with Kohler warranty.

[jack14r]

After a little searching today,I have a flex exhaust pipe failure and it basically stopped up the air filter on the generator and of course the generator ran rich and that caused the black smoke.I need to replace the flex pipe,back in about 2006 there was an article about replacing the flex pipe and the pipe insulation written by a yacht repair guy that had a problem on his Liberty,i think that he even gave the information of the vendors that he used,does anyone know where this article is,or the flex that he used?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jack,

I remember the presentation at the first Kerrville rally and I tried to find the product doing a Google search to no avail. However I remember it was a flex pipe that was made like the flex pipe on the 8V92 engines but in a very long length. It was not a spiral wound pipe which can fail as you have found.

I will keep searching and maybe I will stumble across it.

[Kevin Erion]

Jack, I got some SS flex from GEIB Ind. www.geibind.com
I didn't use it and I have about 4 or 5 feet of 2" ID with about 2.5" OD. I think they have special weld fittings for the end also, I looked and didn't find any, just the flex tube. Let me know if you want it.
Kevin
714-342-8588

[jack14r]

Thanks Kevin,I will get the gen out soon and measure the length.
Jon,I searched and it was Ken Muller from Zimmerman Marine,but the article that he posted does not exist anymore.

[garyde]

This is the type of flex Zimmerman was using I believe;

http://centralstateshose.reachlocal.com/coupon/?scid=1325277&cid=648639&tc=10110121335241301&rl_key=4137dc2a132b0a3b9e8d52649a97dd58&kw=8552670&dynamic_proxy=1&primary_serv=centralstateshose.reachlocal.net

Go to; ' Products' and then select 'Special applications'
Then select 'flexible metal hose'

[jack14r]

Gary,That looks like it.Thanks

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jack, here is a link to the product I recommended to Joe Cannarozzi when he did his generator bay rebuild.

http://www.penflex.com/

Joe used it and will be happy to share his source for the product. 708-243-7871.

Here is the link to the Thread on the project: http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/showthread.php?1211-Generator-and-Gen.-Bay-Rebuild&highlight=generator+bay+rebuild


JIM :cool:

[jack14r]

After a lot of research I ordered the hose from Flextrol in NC,corrugated metal hose with stainless braided jacket and stainless NPT welded ends,the assembly is rated for 1500 degrees and 190 PSI.While I had the gen out I replaced the belt,air filter,and repaired a bracket,I also cleaned the gen bay and it now looks almost new.The replacement of the hose went very well as did re installing the generator.I had some fiberglass hose hi temp insulation that I pulled on the new hose and safety wired it in place along with the hose insulation that Liberty had originally installed,the whole package looks great and the gen runs great again.

[jack14r]

At the beginning of this thread I had the digital hour meter reset itself from 116 hours to 3.9 hours,finally Kohler has a fix and I went to Nixon Power in Charlotte on Thursday and they installed new updated software in the controller and they say that that should fix it.I have had service done by Nixon Power in Louisville and Charlotte,their tech people are great but their warranty people are thieves and don't do their jobs.I was wrongly billed 1900+ dollars in Louisville and Wells Fargo credit card people have gotten involved and this should be resolved soon,even though Kohler supplied a controller that had a glitch in the hour meter Nixon Power in Charlotte wanted to charge me,when I told the warranty manager that Wells Fargo said that it was Kohler's and Nixon's responsibility she reluctantly agreed to repair it at no charge.The controller should have been repaired at my location but I decided that it would be impossible to win that battle so I drove 160 miles round trip to their location in Charlotte.IMHO i think that Kohler is too large to deal with us little guys that own motor coaches,they want to supply fixed generators to businesses that have annual maintenance contracts.I have 4 other generators and have never had any major problems with any of them,I don't ever want another Kohler generator or one that uses Nixon power for service.

[truk4u]

Jack,

Hang in there, maybe the generator fiasco is now behind you. I have followed all your posts regarding your generator and even pisses me off that you have had so much trouble and no real help from the responsible parties. I've had a bunch of Motorhomes and 3 buses and never had a minutes trouble with any of the generators other than routine stuff. Here you are with an 08 Elegant Lady, the best of the best, and have had nothing but problems and everyone wants to pass the buck.

I just wanted to let you know I feel your pain, for what thats worth!

[jack14r]

Thanks Truk,Liberty's Dave Wall was very diligent in getting Kohler to change my warranty status from commercial to RV status with additional help from Aaron Marquardt at Steiner Electric.Kohler has a 1 year warranty for commercial units and a 2-3 year for RV units with the third year having a $100 deductible.When I called Nixon for service in August and supplied them a bill of sale they registered my coach as a commercial unit because they would be paid more money by me than by Kohler warranty.I did not realize this had happened until almost 30 days after the service and I received a bill for $1932.71.The service writer in Louisville(Bobby) had agreed that the generator was in warranty after Liberty faxed him a bill of sale.Even though they did not have permission to bill my credit card for the 1900 they refused to refund it.I then got in touch with Wells Fargo Credit Card Dispute people and they only wanted Nixon to fix the glitch in the hour meter,but when I told my local contact at Wells Fargo that I would move my accounts then I got some real attention.The warranty status has been changed to RV status and Nixon now has the old parts and they should have been shipped to Kohler,Nixon has finally been forced by Wells Fargo to file a warranty claim with Kohler and I should get the 1900 back on my credit card in 90 days or so.I hope that I never have to deal with Kohler or Nixon again,I do believe that they(Nixon)are crooks and that they made sure that the warranty was listed as a commercial generator,if i did not have Wells Fargo people helping me I would have already lost the 1900.I may purchase another coach some day but before I do I will open the gen bay and verify that it does not have a Kohler!!!

[Kevin Erion]

Jack, I have had a few problems with the new Kohler unit in my transporter. If I have a say in the brand, Martin Diesel in Ohio. Jim is the owner, great guy and a bus owner. I have owned 4 or 5 of his units and never a problem, and he helps me trouble shot the others that are brand X.

[Charles Spera]

I second the recommendation of Martin Diesel. They have taken care of my needs in a rapid and honest manner.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I had a Universal powered by Kubota in our first bus and now a Yanmar powered Kohler in the current bus.

So far my only repair on either was a new fuel pump on the Kohler. But I can say with conviction the Yanmar powered generator is an easy starter compared to the Kohler. The Kubota would crank forever and it got to the point that I would prepare for a trip by powering the electric fuel pump on the Kubota until the ticking indicated the fuel system was primed and ready. Then it would fire up immediately.

The Yanmar has just fired up without hesitation and very little cranking even after a long period of inactivity.

So far so good on the generator part on my generators. Keeping my fingers crossed.

[GDeen]

Are the Kohler problems related to the newer models or have they always been problematic? It is hard to believe the big convertors (Marathon and Liberty) would have used them for decades if they were routinely problematic.

I have an annoying problem with mine described in another thread. I may call Kevin's guy and see if he is willing to do a consult over the phone on my current issue. The So-Tex guy down in San Antonio did fine last go round, but he won't let customers back in the shop which I can't stand. I may be over thinking it and should just run it down there, but I wouldn't mind talking to another expert on the genset (Kohler / Yanmar) and current symptoms to see if something else comes to mind for him.

We rely on the generator so much when traveling, I would prefer it to be fairly bulletproof with routine maintenance. Only common problem I have heard on my vintage is the bearing failure on the generator shaft. May get that replaced next time they are in there just for peace of mind.

[jack14r]

I had another problem with this generator,the return oil line from the turbocharger was only clamped on the last 1/8 of an inch of the hose,over time the edge of the clamp cut the rubber hose and of course oil began to leak.The leak was easy to find once I got the gen out of the cabinet for the third time(I am now good at removing the gen)NAPA had an exact rubber hose with the 90 degree bend in the right place and 2 new clamps and all is well.I can't blame Kohler for this one so I will blame Yanmar for installing the clamp at the edge of the hose.I deal with machinery every day in my manufacturing plant so I am used to some failures but the QC of my Kohler generator leaves a lot to be desired,at this point I don't want another Kohler generator!!!

[Kevin Erion]

Martin Diesel, Jim
419-782-9911
They will work and repair any brand, I think they use Yanmar almost 100% when they build there gen sets. Great guy!

[GDeen]

Thanks Kevin.

[Sid Tuls]

I have the same one Kevin has,I haven't had any problem.

[jack14r]

After almost a year I have decided to throw in the towel and hopefully I will never again purchase another Kohler product.Karen Baird that works for Nixon Power in Tennessee refuses to explain how I was charged $271.60 for a round trip for service that was less than 30 miles and they also charged $89.77 for shop supplies which would be fair but my research has found that this charge is not SOP.I have written Kohler and they refuse to help me so I can only do one thing and that is to not support Kohler with my future purchases.The only thing that I can say nice about Nixon Power is that the technicians were knowledgeable and they did repair the generator.If any of you need service on your Kohler generator from Nixon Power make sure that they email a quote before you contract with them!I have a Powertech generator that is 16 years old and a Onan that is 7 years old and both of them have never had a problem,there is a great chance that I will purchase a Powertech or Onan in my next coach.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

We went all high end Kohler when we built our house. I know pluming is not generators, but the same name is on the product.
From the start we had problems with fuacets, both leaking and problems with the finish and plating. To Kohler's credit they did keep sending me repair parts and replacements, but after a while I just quit fighting a losing battle and went to Lowes and bought replacements at 1/4 the cost. After a while they started exhibiting similar problems, but with cheap products I can accept them. I just go out and buy new ones.

Kind of like the pickup truck and Mercedes. Both are over 10 years old and I will tolerate a rattle in the pickup truck, but go crazy when I hear one in the Mercedes. Actually the pickup is as solid as an anvil.