Smaller Aux Generator wanted

[Jeff Bayley]

I'm a full timer that mostly prefers staying elsewhere than RV parks. There are times when I just want to run one roof A/C at night to sleep (or during the day) instead of "lighting up" the entire coach with the 17.5 kw Powertech Gen Set installed on my 97 Royal. I'm considering buying either a gas or diesel aux generator in the 3000-3,500 range to use for this purpose. The reason for this would be fule economy but one has to consider the cost for the parts compared with the long term fuel savings. Responses could comment on the fuel useage of the big gen set but I seem to be getting data that suggest the consumption is between 1-2 gallons an hour depending on the load. Reucing that to a half gallon an hour (or possible less) would save approximatley $30 a day if you used 10 hours a baseline of running the gen and rounding out at $3 per gallong. The 2nd reason I like the idea (if it is practicle) is lower noise and peace of mind. I had the big generator set almost catch on fire when the turbo burned up about a year ago and now I never sleep as sound with the gen on as I do when staying plugged in at an RV park.

I'm analyzing the feasability of either using a run of the mill portable gas gen that would stow in the bay OR I'm wondering about a compact air cooled diesel gen that might fit in one of the two available spaces at the rear (of a 45' XL) that are extensions of the engine bay. I thought the Prevost service center could run an extension off the main engines fuel line (probabley incorporating a check valve) or the return fuel line perhaps that would eliminate the need to keep refueling and probabley be safer (would prefer not to have fuel tank in the heated main engine bay of course). Disposing of the fuel tank, it might fit in that space.

The other method might work as follows. One of the storage bays (where I keep my medium size tool box) has a 110 volt outlet that I never use. Since this terminates at the main fuse block, I thought of using the existing wireing to that plug in reverse as an input to put power to the fuse block using that outlet as an input obtaining power from the portable gas generator. I might be able to leave the generator run in place inside the bay next to my tool box if I vented the bay properly. With a remote electric starter, it would be convieient to toggle on and off as needed with the only draw back being that I have to now carry gas around instead of tapping into the diesel supply (as in the first example with the diesel gen installed in the engine compartment).
Since this proposed bay to carry the gas gen is in the passenger side instead of the drivers side (where the 50amp shore power cord is), I'm proposing running the power to the fuse block through the 110 volt outlet in reverse like I said. From there, I presume I can toggle what I want to power on an off at will (stove top, either roof airs, one battery charger, etc) by turning everything else I don't want to run off. I don't know if the gauge of wire from that one outlet is large enough to handle the amp load without a possible fire hazard. I don't want to test out my fire extenguishers and it occurs to me that I better check this througoghly before charging ahead. I joined the Prevost Owners Group specifically to put this subject out there.

I'll remain and see if anyone has any comments on this [semi] off the wall idea. Thanks in advance to all.

Jeff Bayley

[win42]

REPEAT: Free electricity any time anywhere. I'm still waiting for you full timers/boondockers to step up and outline a good Solar system for our coaches. Helloooh ! are you out there.

True Solar units large enough to keep up a rack of batteries under load will be expensive one time. Think of the flexability it would afford us.
Harry

[MangoMike]

Hi Jeff,
Welcome to POG. I don't have many answers for you except I've been considering roughly the same thing. When dry camping I just need to get the batteries charged up and the refrigerator running and it seems like a waste to run a 20kw genset to accomplish that. Honda makes a great portable and quiet generator the EU2000 that would meet my needs. The main problem I see is dealing with the gas issue. JW solved his supply issue at OSH by stealing AVgas for his Honda EU1000 from someones plane.

342

Maybe you can tap into the TOAD gas tank to have a nearby fuel supply.

Now there are others on the board that will say, Suck it up you own a Prevo, just pay the piper and run the generator. But it's always good to talk about options.

Mike

[dalej]

Jeff, I thought I was the only one with this idea, I had ask almost the exact same question earlier this
year, maybe it was last year? on the other forum, maybe this one.

Seems that the little guys 2000-3000 watt run so loud that you don't want to be around them. They are
used for construction. I had talked to a couple of manufacturers and that’s what they said. Seem you
should be able to quite them down.

After a month or so I just let it go. If you are at all like me you want to be as efficient as you can, not
counting the cost of the little generator, Its just a challenge to me. I was going to put it next to the
Wabasto so the fuel would be right there.

Let me know if you find a jewel of a generator for this. Thermo King has one for truckers so they don’t
have to run the big block for heat.

[MangoMike]

Dale,

I've heard this Honda EU2000
http://www.wisesales.com/images/EU2000-246x242.png

Extremely quiet only 55db. Again it's the fuel issue.

MM

[rfoster]

Jeff: I too don't like the idea of running a 20kw gen set to run one cruise air in the bedroom. I purchased a couple of mini type (110v) fans that I can place on the window sill inside the bedroom, open the window and let it run all night off the house batteries..(makes a nice low hum) Now - it has to cool down at night for this to work, if you are in the deep south or Fl in the summer -it just doesn't cut it. Maybe Harry can keep up the push for solar power with batteries. Or better yet JDUD can train the prairie dogs to power a treadmill generator.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I wish Peter answers this also.

The fuel you burn relates primarily to the power you generate.

Obviously there is some consumption related to just keeping an unloaded generator spinning, but as you add load you increase the fuel burn. I am shooting from the lip here, but it is probable that your generator will burn somewhere around 1 GPH (more or less) heavily loaded, and with a light load substantially less. I will be so bold as to suggest to run a single air and the refrigerator and battery charger you may be burning 1/2 GPH.

There is a direct correlation between HP, Watts produced, and fuel consumed. Because I am sore from spreading mulch I am too lazy to look in the manual, but I suspect the generator manual has a fuel consumption chart or listing.

Adding to that, I see no downside to running the generator all night, but with a reservation. If it cools down and the batteries are charged and the AC cycles off, the generator has little or no load, and at some point to keep the injectors and the cylinders clean you will need to load the generator because running a diesel at low power is generally not good for them.

[garyde]

Here are a few additional items to consider;
1. Gas Generators have self contained tanks which need to breath, they also will heat up much more than the diesel generators.
2. Gas is extremely flamable
3. To run a typical 120 volt A/C unit , you will need a 1800 watt or larger Generator, to accomodate start-up and cycling.
4. Gas Generators are not designed for full load , 8 hour use in the smaller sizes.
5. Gas tanks are limited in size; 2- 5 gallons.

These Generators need a lot of Air for cooling purposes because they do not have radiators.

Now, I am sure there are exceptions to all of the above, but you should be well informed before you make a decision.

[Jeff Bayley]

Wow. What a pleasant surprise to sign on and see 7 replies to my first post and all within the first day. Interesting comments. My further reply follows.

Before replying to the thread, I would like to invite comments on the idea of installing a small, air cooled, diesel generator in the engine bay area on either the passenger or drivers side of the 45’ XL. This was one thing nobody commented on yet. There is an access door for either side. I saw where I missed something worth looking at in one of the bays at the recent rally ( http://www.prevost-stuff.com/santafe-2%20109.jpg ) What’s in there ? I’ve yet to determine if there is a diesel generator small enough and economical enough to fit but its close enough to keep investigating until someone shoots this down. This solves the dual fuel issue and eliminate the carry gas if we can make it work. I’m getting the feeling (as a first time generator shopper) that the small diesel sets are a bit larger than their gas counterparts. By taking an open frame model and hacking away at the frame and possible eliminating the fuel tank (will tap into the main fuel supply to the engine) then this compacts it a bit. I invite critical comments on the idea. Does anyone thing this could be a fire hazard? I’m a bit paranoid of this unproven (evidently first time) idea and I don’t want you all to ready about me in the funny fire papers. I’m quite certain I don’t want to introduce a gasoline generator into this compartment. That seems like an accident waiting to happen.

Regarding fuel consumption, Jon Wehrenberg wrote that the fuel consumption decreases with load and this is true. I would be pleased to find out that it could be a low as ½ gallon an hour. Can anyone comment ? This seems to be something that is all over the board. I found a chart at http://www.mclifts.com/kubota-generator.htm that shows 1.5 gallons an hour for a 15kw and 1.8 gph for a 20kw. These are at between 35 and 40amps load. Wouldn’t you know the field is blank for the 17.5 (like the one I have) so I guess its fair to call it a split at around 1.65 but I don’t know how accurate these estimates are and I don’t care to get out the beaker and eyedropper to confirm.

Regarding the fans that Roger wrote about…….true that. Got two small box fans tucked away in the closet that work sometimes. “Roger that”.

As an aside, I modified my fuse blocks quite easily to run two roof airs while running down the road. I read where the new coaches (mine is a 97) are usually wired to run one roof air off the coach and I thought “I want that”. The modification was surprisingly easy (I’m not an electrician) with a couple of heavy duty toggle switches in line between the shore power fuse block and the inverter fuse block that let me switch between power sources. My inverter fuse block had two empty spots for additional breakers. I found a great use for them and I haven’t had to let the smoke out yet from a fire so I guess I did it right. I had already replaced my bad house alternator with a $1,300 (ouch) 270 amp replacement which makes plenty of power to put back what is taken from the battery bank. Your actually running off the batteries and inverter with this set up, not direct off the alternator of course which is only refilling the batteries as fast as I’m draining them when I have the two A/C’s on. More on this for anyone that is curious. Write and tell or if there is already posting on this let me know (I haven’t browsed the rest of the posting yet).

Back to the small gas generator. Its strange and against my nature to try and spend time on modifying this because I’m not a penny pincher but it just bugs me to leave the generator running night and day and sometimes you need A/C all the time. I would like to not think about it as much as I do now. Running the big generator even at low load has to use at least a gallon an hour (in my gut feeling). Do the math and your talking $75 a day in fuel and more if consumption is over a gallon an hour which I think it is. No wonder I gravitate toward an RV park for half that cost but there are times I want to park where I want to park and I find that I can get a better view on my own than I can from the RV Parks with State Parks being the exception (cheaper and better I’m finding out as a rookie to RV parks). I just want to have power all the time and I find myself cycling the generator on and off now.

Regarding Dales comment on the noise of the small gens, are you talking about the small diesel gens ? The gas ones are quite as a mouse so you must mean small diesel gens are loud. Do you have a link to the Thermo King one you referred to ? I did a few minutes of searching and didn’t find it.

I said in my initial post that I dodged a near fire on the main generator and now I was gun shy about running it at night and getting restless sleep. I spent time and money researching a way to put a fire suppression system in the generator bay and settled on a marine system after I couldn’t find anyone at all who could make a recommendation on one for the bus. I had the company install it themselves only to have the system explode on me like a grenade. They mounted the extinguisher too close to the exhaust and the internal temperature on the propellant evidently likes to expand (a lot) when aggravated by heat. It wasn’t enough heat to trigger the thermostat which requires 240 degrees to release the propellant but evidently enough heat to make it blow. Talk about a safety devise back firing on me. It blew a 1 foot diameter hold in the generator bulkhead to the opposing storage bay. Nobody was hurt but would have been if they were poking around in one of the two bays. More on this later or in a separate thread if anyone has anything similar they want to share. Write and tell if so.

Anyway, you can see why I’m shy about the main generator and also paranoid about unproven modifications after a failed pioneer attempt on the extinguishers.

[Just Plain Jeff]

Hitman Frank, of the 2.8 meter bridge fame, bought an inventory of compact, electric start gennies 1000, 2000, and 3000 watt for the summer season in Maine. I think the brand name is Kipor. They're slick. They are quiet and have the spark arresting requirement for National Parks and BLM, low fuel requirements (gas). They are about the size of a medium-sized suitcase.

If you call him on his cell at (207) 975-6066 and tell him you're a POG person and Jeff sent ya, you could likely get a deal. I believe he has just the 1000, and 2000 watt models left.

We tried the 2000 watt in his shop and it was impressively quiet, unlike the Hondas, etc.

My 2 cents worth and you can keep the change.

[dalej]

This is the web site of the Yanmar generator that I thought I was going to get. http://www.generatorjoe.net/product.asp?0=541&1=556&3=1506
I'll let you know about Thermo King's model when I find it......found it! http://www.thermoking.com/tripac/ 
Talked to them on the phone this morning. Priced around $8000 installed. Includes heat and air, 65
amp alt. Connects to the Detroit to keep it warm in winter. Seems like a good unit except its doubling
up on our systems. So a small gen set is probably going to be the answer. Yanmar makes the engine for
this unit.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

First, I need to correct something. I stated a 1 GPH fuel flow, and my brain was processing 20 HP instead of 20 KW. The actual heavily loaded fuel flow will be 1.8 GPH as Jeff B. posted.

I do stick with my assertion that the fuel consumed is related to the load and our 15 to 20 KW generators are not as inefficient to run as is thought.

Installing a second generator may give the bus owner a feeling of satisfaction, but there is a whole lot to doing it. Problems to be considered that have been addressed in our current installations are noise suppression, vibration, safety devices, finding adequate space, and the cost versus benefit.

I can't speak about other coaches, but I could not find any space on my coach suitable for a generator installation, especially in the engine compartment. When I consider the investment we all have in our coaches I find it odd that we tend to ignore depreciation and the cost of the invested capital, but we fret over a few gallons of diesel fuel.

[Kevin Erion]

Give Jim at Martin Diesel a call, he my be able to help. He manufactures all diffrent size generators and also has a bus so he understands what you want to do.
419-782-9911

[MangoMike]

Jeff,
I can respond to that pix from the Rally as it was the Mango Mothership.

That compartment houses the webasto and it's pretty darn full so no room there.

I did find this new offering from Kohler 5kw, air cooled.

http://www.kohlerpowersystems.com/MungoBlobs/420/680/aaa45570-Mobile%20Generators-A.jpg

http://www.kohlerpowersystems.com/1147042085605.html

Mike

[truk4u]

I must be missing something here.:confused: We have generators big enough to run several houses, are designed to run in excess of 20,000 hrs. (according to Kohler), are quiet, uses a small amount of fuel and you guys want to add another one!:eek:

Kohler told me the biggest problem they have is little use and low hours. They also told me not to worry about the load, as long as there is some consumption of 110 volt power, lights, frig, charger, TV, fans, etc.

So do your generator a favor and run it long and often...;) Or like Harry said, use solar panels and run off the inverter. I have a friend with a new Beaver who has 6 solar panels that generate about 24 amps. Now thats a good deal.

[Jeff Bayley]

Regarding the fuel costs, I just want to reiderate two points. I'm full time and I prefer to find my own parking instead of RV parks. Not becuase of costs but because of superior locations. I also don't tow a car and I like to park near the things I want to see and do. Hence, not being a weekend warrior, the fuel can add up.

I'm seeing referrals (thank you) to nice gen small diesel sets that are nice but pricey. I think the only way this makes sense is to spend under $1,500 to $2,000 or else the cost of the revision outrunds the savings and practicallity in my math. Anyone know of a compact gen that might fit the bill ? I know it won't last or a jillion hours but to large degree this is a test anyhow.

Jeff

[Petervs]

Hey Foontoon ( Jeff Bayley) ! Stop acting like you own a Winnebago! That means get over this crazy plan of a little generator, and while you are at it, remove the ladders and bicycles you have hanging on the back of your coach!

Now that I have your attention, let me explain. Your plan has many faults in the design, and in the end will not really save you any money besides. The problems as I see them:

1. Your 17.5 kw gen burns much less fuel than you think while it is only powering one AC and the fridge. I challenge you to setting up a test run with a one gallon can of diesel as the fuel supply, just feed it right to the generator fuel pump. Then turn on the AC and the fridge, turn off everything else, and see how long it goes till the fuel runs out. I bet it will be over 3 hours. Then you will know what the fuel consumption really is when the generator is lightly loaded. Post the results so we will all know, please.

2. One AC needs at least a 4 kw generator to allow it to start. So a 2500 or 3000 watt unit will be too small. Go back to the old one AC rv's from the 1970's and the smallest gen that would run it was a 4kw, some even had a 6.5kw. When you look at those little Honda 2000 watt units, wow they are quiet but they are also way to small to run an AC. Invalid comparison.

3. A gas or diesel generator that is air cooled will require some interesting mounting details to allow it not to overheat. And it will make near as much noise as the well muffled big one in your coach. The little ones come with instructions to set it out in the open air for good cooling.

4. Your big gen while lightly loaded should not generate very much heat in the turbo or anywhere, so the risk of a fire should be no more than with a small genny.

5. If you are full timing, why do you hang out in hot climates where you need AC at night? Good grief, go find a coooler place to hang your shingle.

6. Your proposed wiring plan leaves much to be desired from a safety point of view. If you can sleep over that method, you should be able to sleep with the gen running.

7. A small diesel or gas generator will burn as much fuel per hour ( almost) as a larger one running at an equal reduced load. If they are both putting out, say 3500 watts steady,the only difference would be the running friction on the bigger one is a little higher because it is larger. But it is a very very small amount of work difference. A small diesel will be way more efficient than a small gas unit. The difference in fuel used would not be more than a gallon a day in my estimation, so the payback on the cost of the second system would be measured in decades.

One final comment about Jon Wehrenberg. Both for his invite to me to post on this topic, and for his answers on this topic, I have to give Jon an A in POG for the day. He is on the right track and has been paying attention in class.

As always, anyone is welcome to let me have it if they think I am wrong, but I prefer factual details to innuendo and slander. And I am really looking forward to the results of the fuel consumption test outlined above. We could even do it at the next POG if someone has not done it by then.

Peter VS
94 Marathon XLV

[MangoMike]

Peter,
What ever you do - don't hold back, just let it all out. We can now divert attention from Lew.

but I prefer factual details to innuendo and slander.
Since when is this group goint to start confusing people with facts.

I would also be interested in seeing the fuel usage test.

Mike

[Coloradobus]

foontoon,

If you want to run one A/C unit with an auxillary genset, you will need at least 4000 watts for compressor startup, 3000-3500 won't handle it.(Honda 3000 :( )
Yamaha makes a 3, but has a battery boost backup for compressor strain.
We use 2 Honda's iin tandem (only manufacturer to allow this) with a special power pack that ties the two together,.During a test at the dealer, this pair of 2000 obtained a strained output of 48 amps.(both units were obviously staining hard to keep running, they were both jumping up and down off the ground complaining). and kept going to keep the A/C short cycle compressor to continue. We use this set-up boondocking in our Airstream trailers that are equipped with Carrier 15,000 btu A/C units. We tried the Honda 3000. It was big bulky, and heavy and COULDN'T handle a quick cycle on the compressor. Its STALLED!! almost everytime. Under ordinary startup, the stall was random and not a trustworthy unit. These small units as said above are air cooled, so you will have to set them outside the coach secured in some fashion so they don't walk off.
While in our "H", we ALWAYS run the generator (Kohler 20KW) ALL night when stopping at camp WAL MART. The cost of the Honda Paired unit vs the amount of fuel you are using in the Power Tech is no contest. The Honda 2000's plus power pack will set you back $2,400.00 .At $3.00 a gallon, that will buy you 800 gallons of diesel for the Power Tech. Using the figures above of 1-2 gallons per hour (which is excessive) of diesel used in the Power Tech, that's 400 to 800 hours of genset use. Our previous coach, 2002 XLII Marathon, we ran the generator in Yellowstone, 12 hours a day for 9 days, we used about about 28 to 32 gallons running at least 2 cruise airs, frig, and other electronics you can't turn off. Its hard to come up with a concrete consumption rate while using the Webasto as well.
The coach's generators are somewhat over kill for the coach, but the healthiest for coach's electronics. Nothing kills our coach's electronics like low, or bad voltage. I think you are asking for BIG trouble. We just had a low voltage reprogramming problem corrected at Marathon last month....OUCH$$$$$$$

If you want to spend some good money on your Power Tech system, add a fire suppressant/alarm system to give you piece of mind sleeping with it on
Good luck

[truk4u]

Peter,
What's your take on the dual output framulator?:p You have one on your Marathon you know.:rolleyes:

[kmuller]

Jeff - that was an interesting story about fire suppression for the generator. Something was definitely wrong with the unit and/or the installation. Many times there is a huge "gap" between the manufacturers specs and what some tech knowingly or unknowing does during the installation. Being in the Yacht service and construction business for 25 years, we have never heard of this happening and technically it’s not possible, all of these tanks are designed to vent if the temperature gets too high. Every marine system we have ever seen vents off at 175 degrees. I wonder what brand the unit was? In addition, our yard would only install such a unit to ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) technical guidelines. In addition to specific installation requirements, ABYC standards do not allow for any part of any exhaust system to exceed 200 F, if it does it must be insulated in order to comply with that temp rating. Great advise for coaches as well, particularly in light of all the recent press regarding coach fires. We recently had the genset exhaust system on a Liberty checked for temp and found two areas that required re-insulation to meet the 200 F max temp standard. This was in addition to loose wiring and several chaffing issues that would have led to real problems down the road. Sleeping with a generator running is a significant concern if the exhaust, temperature, fire, and CO detection systems are not up to snuff. We will be installing a coach wide fire/smoke/temp/co detection and suppression system to cover all bays as well as the engine, generator and electrical panels/systems this winter. The system and installation will be ABYC compliant.

[Petervs]

Hello again,

What the heck is a dual output framulator? If I have one, would somebody kindly intoduce me to her?

If you mean the wiring to run 2 ACs from the engine alternator through the inverters, well, sorry, my coach does not have that. I have inverters that are not big enough for that, instead, I have what amounts to 3 dash air units, one in front, middle, and rear; for use while driving. It works real well. And then there are 3 cruise airs for use when shore power or generator power is available.

Another way to think about this generator fuel consumption is as follows:

The coach engine, 500hp or so, burns diesel at about 7.5 mpg while driving down the road at an average speed of say 62 mph. That works out to 8.3 gallons per hour. The engine is not working all that hard most of the time, lets say it is making 175 hp on average. That is 35% of rated power. I am just guessing at the hp made here so we have numbers to use in this example.

Dividing 175 by 8.3 gives you 21 hp for an hour for each gallon of diesel consumed.

Now run the generator. If it is a 17.5kw it probably has a 30hp diesel attached. Since it is also a water cooled diesel it should have about the same specific fuel consumption as the coach engine. If it is running at 30% power output to run just one AC, then it makes 9 hp on a steady basis. You can run at that power for 2.33 hours on a gallon of diesel if the usage is the same as the big engine. My guesses can be off by some amount, but I bet they are pretty close.

And if you ran one or two little generators at a power level to run a generator, well, you would be burning the same amount of fuel in those anyway. Just stick to the one good generator you have installed already.

Peter VS

[MangoMike]

Karl,

Please keep us posted in your new detection/supression system. Photos, details and amounts would be very helpful as it's something we should all look at.

Mike

[garyde]

From my standpoint, the A/C units are too noisey to run all night, and I have to get up in the middle of the night to turn them off. The problem seems to be we have a Diesel engine under us or adjacent to the sleep area. If the engine is hot, we will be attempting to cool off for several hours. Secondly,the bedroom has poor natural ventilation. If you can open both windows in the room , and run the bath exh. fan, you can keep the heat down until the Cool night air drops the temp.
Other than that, run the generator , run the A/C, and park next to a Lake, River, or Ocean when you can.

[win42]

Gary; I know it looks a hoaky, but when I shut down for the evening I open the rear and passenger side engine doors and any breeze cools the engine area prior to sleeping above it. I know Prevost Owners are not allowed to do hoaky things like this, but it works. Just make sure there are no PP's watching.
Harry

[Jerry Winchester]

And lastly, I have one of those 5500 Honda generators that will run an AC unit and I wouldn't have it within a zip code of the coach. It is noisy from hell and shakes like a dog crapping a peach seed :eek:

Kinda reminds you of Lew after a cheese pizza buffet binge......

[Chris and Debbie Yates]

Probably the same pizzas that come with a Liberty according to A1

AP

[Jon Wehrenberg]

That is PIZZAZ not pizzas. You not only talk funny, but you spell funny.

Hanging around with batman and robin is definitely starting to show on you.

[Chris and Debbie Yates]

To be called to task by a colonial from Tennessee.:p
You can be sure that if I win the lottery and buy a Liberty, thanks to you, I will never confuse my pizzas with my pizzaz. That way I will not go hungry and the coach will require less clean up:)
Hey Mango, you already have Mango Mike's and Bubba Mike's, how about Mike's pizzaz pizzas?

Austin Powers

[garyde]

Gary; I know it looks a hoaky, but when I shut down for the evening I open the rear and passenger side engine doors and any breeze cools the engine area prior to sleeping above it. I know Prevost Owners are not allowed to do hoaky things like this, but it works. Just make sure there are no PP's watching.
Harry

That s exactly what I would do with my Country Coach which was designed with no Vents on side or back. It makes you wonder about designers.
Anyway, 20 years ago I used to sleep outside in a tent, now I sleep in a 1M Coach and spend $ trying to keep cool.

[Ben]

Has anyone investigated the idea of enough solar cells on the roof to at least keep the fridge running and the batteries topped off (if I have almost everything else shut off... might want to use my laptop and charge my cell, but not much else is essential).

I hate having the generator kick in right when I'm trying to sleep and run for 5 hours just to charge up the batteries... the only thing that has been turned on in the panel is the refrigerator.

If I could keep the fridge running without draining the batts, then I'd be a happy man.

Liberty's use cruise airs, which leave a sh*t-load of empty space on the roof for solar cells. I can't imagine spending $8000 on an aux generator when the same amount spent on solar has got to keep the batts topped off.

[Jerry Winchester]

http://www.solarbus.org/graphics/buslogo.gif

[Jerry Winchester]

The Ray Davis Version

http://www.shuttlepresskit.com/images/iss/iss_top.jpg

AP Version

http://static.flickr.com/96/267102956_93fa2d92d6.jpg

[bluevost]

Hey Ben,

I had six 7 amp solar panels on the roof of my Eagle. I went from running the gen 5-6 hours a day to about 1 hour per day, using everything we wanted to. Mind you we had LP stove, water heaters, and heat, but a (old) residential fridge. Solar is great!!! The only thing I would do differently, is I would make them tilt as much as possible. You lose some of the effeciency when they lay flat. I can only imagine the picture JDUB will post when he reads this.

[win42]

Ben: Search RV Solar Panels on your browser.
H

[MangoMike]

This could be more Ray's style. A little more down to earth.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/arecibo_naic.gif

[Jeff Bayley]

I thought I posted this same message days ago but it looks like it never posted so here goes again.

After reading all the cons against my cooky idea for a smaller generator I've decided it's not practicle. I'll put it out to pasture with the Myth Busters stuff that didn't pass. I'm going to turn my attention to increasing my battery capacity with help from Harry.

Jeff

[win42]

Jeff B. Solar, young man, Solar. It's the wave of the future. I figured it out and I'm not even a tree hugger. Look @ Ken Z's post above. If a total of 42 amps of solar panels almost eliminated his generator operation, think what larger amp panels would do. Stay in the sun brother, something the other coasters don't understand.

My sons neighbor added solar to their big house and vertually eliminated their utility bill. Even in summer with multi AC units running. They have a pay back of 6-7 years on their investment. Not counting rebates given them for doing it. Search RV Solar on you browser. If I used my coach more often, I'd do it in a flash. A friend of mine put a small solar panel on his plastic coach, soon after he bought it, for storage reasons. I never heard him complain about any battery problems.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
H

[Jeff Bayley]

Harry- Ok. The solar is worth investigating further. A couple of my thoughts that need to be addressed:
1) Where to run the power lines from the roof to the battery bay ? Just straight down the side and cover them up?
2) We typically don't have ladders for our rigs but I would love to go ahead and add one if someone can tell how. I think it needs to be two pieces. If I convert my bumper bay to storage, the right ladder could work there possibly. I don't tow a car and the ladder can double as the bike rack. My guess is that you would need to access those buggers frequently especially in the beginning and ongoing to clean them (?)
3) Related to above, I read on another web site discussing the panels that you want them to be angled, not flat. Do the kits have motors, do you adjust manually from the roof or do you "set it and forget it" like Ron Popeel's chicken roaster ?
4) Cost. I haven't priced them but I get the sense that were talking $5k to cover the roof if not more but this is just a "from the hip" guess. Since I was willing to spend $2k on an aux generator (which I decided against) then this money could go toward the solar fund. Anybody know how much investment is required to get the job done? Is it practical to think that the A/C's would run one roof air ?

As someone pointed out on this thread, if you figure up how much fuel your saving and balance that against the cost of the aux gen or solar panels now, then the ROI is measured in decades.

Intense sun = more power however I think intense sun also = 2 A/C's needed instead of one so you wind up running the generator anyway.

If the solar panels wound up not working or being practical I guess I could take them off and put them on my house. Looking forward to the comments.

Jeff

[Ben]

I looked at many of the solar sites, but was unable to figure out if it would be enough to keep my fridge running and batteries topped when I'm running the fridge, a few lights and charging my laptop. If I could do that and spend something like $3000, then I'd be into it.

I know that $3000 will buy a bit of fuel for the generator, but who wants to constrantly change the oil, have the thing auto start on your when you're trying to sleep, have you worry if you have enough fuel to keep it going for a while and have your batteries get discharged if you forget to turn on autostart after changing the oil, etc, etc, etc, etc. I think I should only have to start up the generator if I need air conditioning or some other huge load. It's madness to run it for 5 hours every other day just to keep the refrigerator running.

I'd really like to know more about solar... I'm planning to stop by one of the RV solar places next month and see what they think.

[Jeff Bayley]

I've got a chance to buy this for $600. Here is the description.

Two 55-Watt Solar Panels

Like New

Very Nice Controller Included

Measure approx. 5 feet x 13 inches each.

Work Great- Lots of Power


......Questions. I know NOTHING about Solar panels or if that is enough power to keep a typical set of house batteries topped off. I have roof airs so they need to be installed around those. What to use for brackets ? Mounting hardware and the most intersting question is........how do you snake the wiriing down to the battery bay ? Seems like you either would have to drill a hole in the roof (no problem for me there) and send it down through the wall (I suppose their is enough space behind the wall to do this .....?) and keep going down to the battery bay OR would it be possible, practicle to wire it through the fuse box ? Directly to the battery is the better way I think.

[Ray Davis]

Jeff,

I'm no expert in solar panels, but this sounds really small. 100W isn't enough to keep a couple of 60 watt lightbulbs lit in your coach, much less power anything else. Obviously it will help charge your batteries somewhat, but I don't have any feel for how much this would help.

ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Despite what Al Gore says....is there a problem just cranking up the ole generator?

For the life of me I don't understand why everybody is reluctant to crank it up when the bus is shut down and just keep it running until you start the bus or get on shore power.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Another accessory Jon. Just another gadget.

As a Liberty owner you should be able to understand that:p

Have you noticed the fuel prices creaping up again? NO GOOD

We toped her off at 2.17 on the way in from Fla.:p

Not to disagree with either of you but it will take me probably 10+ gal. of fuel to run that genny for 8hrs. Bout the same as paying for a campground. Could be a tough choice, sometimes.

Jeff, ya know those stats on that solar stuff are all factored in TOTAL SUN and preformance is GREATLY reduced with shade.

[Ray Davis]

2.17?!!! Everything out here right now is $2.80 to $3.00

[Joe Cannarozzi]

That was back at the begining of Feb.

I love it when a plan comes togeather like that!

[lewpopp]

Even then, I think you topped it off with drinking water. $2.17...Where the heck are you, in Ok?

[garyde]

My first RV had a Solar Panel which kept the Coach Batteries charged. I think you would have to choose between chassis or Coach with the Solar Panels. Are they 12 /24 volt? You might be able to lace the wires down thru a vent (if you have some kind of fresh air vent). A couple of aluminum L-channels will do for mounting, using self leveling roof seal to seal the screws.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Even then, I think you topped it off with drinking water. $2.17...Where the heck are you, in Ok?

Sorry Lew, but don't you know that Bottled Drinking Water costs more than diesel fuel ? STRANGE but True :( :eek:

[BrianE]

Jeff,
I know these guys are a long way from you but I just bought some new inverters from them and they seem to be very knowledgeable about all phases of RV electrics. http://wholesalesolar.com/index.html
_______________
94 Liberty XL

[Orren Zook]

Even then, I think you topped it off with drinking water. $2.17...Where the heck are you, in Ok?

Lew,

FYI, fuel was $2.37 in Wytheville VA earlier this week and $2.57 when I got home to Ohio... 400 miles = .20 per gallon. It was less in Rock Hill SC, but I was passing the exit before I saw the sign. <sigh>

[Joe Cannarozzi]

2.17 was available in both South Georga and Gary, Ind.

might as well have been an eternity ago:(

[Jeff Bayley]

For those that are curious, I got the aux generator to work.

The small generator. I finally figured it out after a lot of testing. I picked a Yamaha inverter type, quiet running 2,600 watt generator as the aux gen. It fits in the tiny rear bay on a 45' perfect. I finally got it figured out after a lot of testing.

What didn't work: I had hot wired it to the breaker box through a breaker and shut the main big breaker "power in" off when ever I went to use the aux. gen. That seemed to do the trick and I was keeping my batteries topped off and one air on and getting what I wanted. No so. I burned out a small component in the ATS. The inverters (and the ATS) were getting power from both the batteries and the 110 volt aux generator with that configuration. Double feed. At the mini Pt. St. Lucie Ralley John pointed out that I wasn't done with my engineering. He said the only safe way to use that gen without doing some more revisions was to run it through the shore cord. But each time I tried that (even with a 3,500 watt gen), it would trip the generator. I powered down the inverters remotes to 10amp shore cord and 3 amps trickle on the batteries and left the air OFF and it still tripped the breaker on the aux gen. What I finally figured out to solve it was to go to the remotes and turn one of the inverters (the one that doesn't run the fridge but luckily does run the air that I want)..........I had to turn one of the inverters OFF at the remote. Turns out the inverters draw significant power just from being on, nevermind if they are charging batteries or running much of anything. By running only one inverter, and by plugging the portable generator into the shore power, nothing can get double fed or burned up. I've only tested it for about 10 minutes, not used it overnight but expect I've found the solution. I'll post this as a follow up to the old original thread anyway in case anyone is interested.

[Petervs]

Note the post just two above this one. It was posted on 3-3-07. They were discussing diesel prices at $2.17 per gallon, just a little over a year ago.

Who would have predicted the price would double in a year. We all knew it would rise, but not expecting quite that much so soon.

Now, who should we elect for President to straighten this out?

Oops, sorry, I did not mean to convert this to a political discussion.

[merle&louise]

Could the price of diesel rise to $8.30/gallon by March 2009?

I noticed on TV the other night that the price of gas in Great Britian is over $8.00 per gallon. Ouch!

I guess we will adjust to higher prices like we have been doing for the last 40 years! I remember when I started driving 45 years ago regular gas was $.23 per gallon and premium was $.26 per gallon. One thing for sure, if it has been increasing for the last 45 years, it will continue to increase for the next 45 years:D

Don't know about you guys but I am getting out of the MH business! Too much money for my budget.

[truk4u]

No way Tuga, suck it up, we can't lose Karen!:D

[MangoMike]

Tuga,

Just cut out about 25% of those LSU parties and you'll have more than enough fuel money. ;)

mm

[Jeff Bayley]

Shoot. No accalades for my generator eh ? I think I'm alone on this one. Everyone else I talked to along the way said it was stupid (including John) but he ultimatley saved me from disaster by telling me to run it through the shore power.

Ok, back to gas prices. Oh, by the way, if you dry camp, you cut your gas way down by using a small aux generator when only need a little power. he,he.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Peter

The guy we should elect would be the one who has the balls to go up to Alaska and off the West coast and pull the cork out of Texas and Oklahoma and go out in the gulf and get it. It should be the guy who will allow the industry to start building more storage for crude so we do not have to import refined. It should be the guy who will let the industry build new refineries. It should be the guy who will immediately agressivly move forward on shale. It should be the guy who will tell the tree huggers to get lost when it comes to this issue. It should be someone who has the ability to lead.

I am usually a very optimistic person. Right now I do not think that guy is out there, or is not willing to run, or is out there but not electable because we are surrounded by idiots. I do not think we the people have the collective will or intelligence to do it either. I think it is going to have to get a lot worse before it gets better.

[tdelorme]

Wow, Joe, what?? Debbie forgot to get the Zanex refilled? Lew, can you help Joe out here?

We love you man, breath deep and say OMMMMMmmmmm.

[jonnie]

Joe

Well Said And Right On Point!

[Darl-Wilson]

Amen!!!!!!!:cool: