I'll always remember the summer of 2010...

[Devin W]

...as it has been a spendy one. We knew when we bought our bus that we would be due for a few things before long. Of course all of the systems aside from the Webasto heater checked out well from purchase, but we knew that tires would be the first big investment (and of course took that into consideration for what we paid).

Unfortunately, sometimes things hit all at once and we had some down time that started with the engine getting hot. After getting a complete service and having all of the codes checked, we found that the issues persisted so it was time to dive in deeper. That more detailed inspection revealed the need for an new radiator core, as well as a new blower driveshaft and coupler and turbo (or blower) blowoff valve. Of course, all of those are parts that tend to wear and ones that seem to be particularly vulnerable on our motors, so we fixed them and we're ready for the next 100,000 miles.

But not so quick -- as things go, while in for the engine service, we had the generator running at times to power the A/C for the interior work (since the bedroom floor had to be partially dismantled) and, wouldn't you know it, one day while the generator was running it began to smoke. The technician caught it quickly and shut things down and we found the culprit was a bad bearing that allowed the stator to drop and cook a few things (testament to replacing those bearings if you notice any issues). Of course, I look at it as good fortune as 1) I often use the watchdog when we are not connected to shore power and it could have happened when we were away from the coach when a fire might have started 2) the bearing certainly did not fail randomly, so it was near the end of it's life and could have easily failed while we were trying to use the coach. Silver lining...or maybe I should say gold, 'cuz those parts aren't cheap.

Now, we take it in Monday to have the transmission looked at. Everything else is running so well that there is a very apparent hesitation under power that is not related to an actual gear change and after a test ride, my technician believes that there is something awry with the lockup which means possible issues with the torque converter. Based on some readings he got with the TPS there is a tiny glimpse of hope that it might be resolved with programming, but I'm preparing myself for something more significant.

As I've told my wife several times, these are just the things that come around every about 100K miles, so if we like using it we have to take our lumps. The other saving grace is that we've got a really great shop within walking distance of my house that is skilled and so fair when it comes to price that I sometimes worry if he's making enough money to want to see me again. When we bought the coach last November it had 88K miles on it. We now have about 105K, so we're on track for squeezing almost 20% of it's overall miles into it's 16th year of life. One thing that's for sure, these things drive so well, it's a shame not to drive them whenever you can (OK, so the MPG is a bit poor for around town commuting...:p).

[Will Garner]

Devin,

Just for kicks, and to possibly save some Lewbucks, change all your fuel filters - both primary and secondary filters. It really may be that simple and you may not realize it. They probably need changing anyway.

[Devin W]

Thanks for the tip, Will. I did just have that done with the recent service as I wanted to make sure that all of the potential obvious culprits were taken care of (did the filters on the Webasto, too!).

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I wonder about a few things that got my immediate attention.

The most obvious is that apparently folks are comfortable relying on auto-start for their generators. I know our generators have protection devices, but I still feel very uncomfortable putting my coach in a situation where an unattended mechanical device, especially one that involves fuel and huge amounts of electric, is allowed to function. I wonder if I am alone in my unwillingness to do that? The only time I have done that is at OSH and as luck would have it the genrator threw a belt while I was there. Fortunately the POG pit crew came to the rescue and got me going again.

The second thing that popped out was the age and total miles. Recently we have seen posts relating to coaches that have seen minimal use going through some painful repairs. For years buyers have focussed on low mileage coaches and equally low hour generators. Yet these seem to be the ones that have a shopping list of maladies while the high mileage coach owners just seem to keep on chugging along dealing with routine maintenance. What has been the ownership experience of those with disproportionately low miles and those with unusually high miles? Just curious.

I am presuming Devin's coach is an 8V92 and one of his comments is a reflection of something I have sensed but don't have data to prove beyond my own experience. I think the 8V92 cooling system absolutely, positively has to be properly maintained or the radiator core will be subject to blockage and will require replacement. I believe all our cooling systems require good maintenance, but the 8V92 easpecially so. For potential buyers this is a serious consideration and if proof of maintenance is not provided the price should reflect a radiator exchange.

[Devin W]

John,

You make some good points. We often rely on the watchdog when we are dry "camping" to make sure that the refrigerator doesn't draw the batteries down too low while we may be away during a good portion of the day, but the bearing failure and the fact that I have actually broken two generator belts (the original that was on the coach when I bought it and more recently, one on our last trip) would point to the fact that we could be inviting some serious issues if left unattended. In the case of both gen belts breaking, I was near the coach (although in this condition the system shuts down quickly and aside from lots of coolant puked all over, I'm not sure if there is harm done -- the failed bearing could have been a different story).

As for the mileage, I definitely get the impression that things may wear faster when the bus is used more, but they are less likely to just break or fail without warning. It might be the difference between something aging and becoming fragile and being able to routinely spot wear and replace or repair proactively. Our motor is an 8V92 as you presumed and while that motor seems to be more sensitive to heat, the cooling system also seems to be robust enough that it can be hard to spot an issue until you have one. Our bus ran well at normal operating temperatures for 7 months until the right circumstances collided to really reveal that there was a problem. By the time the core was checked they determined it was 60% occluded. I was probably most shocked that nothing had shown up before based on that finding.

Fortunately, while the repairs have not been cheap, I feel we buffered ourselves well in our original purchase price to where we're able to soak up the maintenance and repair costs to date.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Devin,

I think there is a sense in some folks that the 8V92 runs hot. My experience has been different than that. My 8V92 ran at 180, and climbing especially long 6% or greater grades in the hottest temps it might get up to 195, but not beyond.

My radiator issues gave substantial warning. A hill I could take at 195 on the hottest days became a 200 degree hill, and then a 205 degree hill at which point I had to act. The cost of running in the rust belt showed up in the form of disintegrated fins. When the radiator was recored the shop told me that it was time to recore because the radiator was also getting blocked and that was despite 2 year coolant changes and 6 month filter changes.

While frequent use my produce wear, I think the greatest wear and associated problems comes from infrequent use. I think if a bus has spent most of its life parked I would expect to see problems with the Norgren valves, hub seals, prematurely aging tires with dry rot, and an engine that has internal cylinder corrosion. From lack of use perhaps algae in the fuel tank and a myriad of other conditions brought about by not exercising the various switches, valves and moving parts.

[Woody]

Jon

You seemed to gag when I said that I started the engine and brought it up to temp once a week. In aircraft I know that ground running is bad but isn't exercising all bus systems a good thing as opposed to my once a month 60 mile drive?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

While just running the engine and getting it up to temp may not be a bad thing (assuming you can actually get it hot enough) it doesn't exercise the transmission, the valves associated with the suspension, the brakes, and the various other parts associated with driving.

I may not have the patience or maybe it is not possible, but anytime I have run the engine from a cold start I have never seen the temp gauge get to the point where it is cycling the thermostat. I think anything short of max normal operating temps might tend to leave moisture in the crankcase.

One thing we were told in seminars by tire experts is our tires have chemical compounding that resists sidewall cracking and aging, but to release those compounds we need to exercise the tires by driving, or as an alternative store them like a tire warehouse does. I presume they mean to get the weight off the tires, something we are unlikely to do when we park for a long term.

[Yankee802]

Jon

You seemed to gag when I said that I started the engine and brought it up to temp once a week. In aircraft I know that ground running is bad but isn't exercising all bus systems a good thing as opposed to my once a month 60 mile drive?

I do this as well, it was the very first (and probably most important) bit of advise I got when I started looking at Prevosts. I guess the question is, is this enough to keep the gremlins away? Jon?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

My reasons for not just running the engine are above.

I feel strongly that if the coach is destined to sit for vey long periods some plan of action to avoid issues due to inactivity should be made. The problem is I don't know what constitutes an unacceptably long period of inactivity and I do not know how to measure if leaving the engine alone is better than starting it periodically. I don't think any of us has the answers because all of our experiences with issues like this are anecdotal. In my plane's handbook it outlines exactly how to preserve the engine during periods of inactivity. I have never seen that for the bus.

Adding immensely to the confusion is the environment the bus is in during inactivity. In my garage which minimizes my coach's exposure to the elements and especially the salt air near the coast I suspect strongly it is less affected by inactivity than one that sees wide temperature swings in humid salt air.

I think we all know a bus with little or no use over a period of time ends up with problems not encountered by one that is used regularly. But take one bus and park it near Tuscon and a second parked in Palm Beach and in my mind it is no contest which one will likely have greater issues. The same goes for coaches used frequently. Drive one exclusively in Texas and a second one in the rust belt and there is no doubt which one will have substantial damage from rust and corrosion.

I do believe strongly (my opinion only) that if as part of the plan to have little or no activity with the bus for an extended period, such as six months or more, part of the plan will be to do several things at least once a month. First, when parked I will support the chassis with stands and dump all the suspension air pressure to get most weight off the tires. I might even raise the axles so the tires are not in contact with the floor or ground. Next I would shut it down electrically. If I wanted routine access and needed electric i would make sure the inverrters were on and I would monitor them at least daily.

Once a month I would drive it. I have a loop near my house that would allow me to get everything up to normal operating temperatures and all moving parts exercised and lubricated. The distance is about 16 miles but it has enough slope to it that the engine and transmission both reach their max normal operating temps. Getting up my driveway and into my garage requires that I both raise my bus and lower it so the suspension is getting exercised over its full range which keeps the Norgren valves operational. Doing that is a PITA, but so is replacing an engine with internal corrosion, or replacing Norgren valves that leak because the seals sat in one spot and corroded the polished aluminum interior of the valve. In case that doesn't make sense is there anyone that has not had to hit reverse just to get the brakes to release after the bus sat in humid conditions for a while? (That might not apply to disc brakes, but drum brakes "freeze")

If on the other hand the bus will sit 3 months.....I don't think I will do any of the above, but bear in mind I always have the bus on stands when in the garage so I can go under it if I get the urge without worrying if it will come down unexpectedly. If the inactivity is in a campground I would definitely drive it some distance because I couldn't get the weight off the tires so I would want to exercise them. The question is how long is too long to sit and I see so many variables that I can't think of any answer that fits all situations.

[Yankee802]

Well, personally we live full time in our coach in a campground on the Gulf coast. Once a month I take her out for exersize, about 60 miles, and recently decided to extend that to 100+ miles. I try to keep her washed, but it has been so damn hot. I can't do anything (that I know of) about the salt air or what it does to the coach.

After my run, I top off the fuel and take her back to the campground. I put the tire covers on, re-connect everything and just wait for the next run. After about a week, she has slowly settled all the way down, and pretty evenly. I am not sure if I should fire up the engine to raise the coach or if it's ok to let her stay down untill the next run, any thoughts?

We'll be at the POG rally in Texas in October, and am looking forward to meeting all who attend, and mostly to learning all I can. :)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

It doesn't hurt to let the coach down. Inside the air bags are rubber stops. This according to Bill Jensen when he spoke to us in OKC.

[Devin W]

Well, it looks like the transmission has to come out. Checking on re-manufactured ones, although my mechanic seems pretty confident about doing a rebuilt if we can't find one at a reasonable cost. When I went to check on it today there was this thing parked in their lot:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x150/cs427fanatic/DDBus.jpg

They said it is a repo that is being stored on their lot. I did a quick search and it looks like the same bus from this ad (prior to repo, perhaps?):
http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/1046-1984NeoplanNasaOriginal/#imgiframediv

Kind of interesting. The idea of having a "second floor" where you could have a stateroom and sitting/viewing area is kind of neat. Mostly dreaming as even at the price they were saying that it could go for it would take some serious capital to get it converted. The thing is 49 feet long, 13 1/2 feet tall and has the twin steering front axles.

[Ray Davis]

At 49 feet, I don't have a clue if it's legal to drive in CA, or if you would require a Class A license! Class B in CA only goes to 45 feet.

[Woody]

It doesn't hurt to let the coach down. Inside the air bags are rubber stops. This according to Bill Jensen when he spoke to us in OKC.

I always let the coach down and level at the lowest point.

I thought this is what one was supposed to do. When I let the bow down I can feel it hit the stops, not so for the rear.

What is really correct?

[Devin W]

At 49 feet, I don't have a clue if it's legal to drive in CA, or if you would require a Class A license! Class B in CA only goes to 45 feet.

No doubt. That dual steering in front probably makes it turn a bit tighter, but it's a behemoth. They drive them in europe, though, so they can't be too bad...

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I always let the coach down and level at the lowest point.

I thought this is what one was supposed to do. When I let the bow down I can feel it hit the stops, not so for the rear.

What is really correct?

I suspect if you were sitting over the rear axles when it was being let down you would feel them hit bottom as you do the front.
There has been some posts regardig the sequence of lowerig and raising. I can't remember ever seeing that in a Prevost owner's manual so I don't know if that is important or if it is an OWT.

[rahangman]

I always let the coach down and level at the lowest point.

I thought this is what one was supposed to do. When I let the bow down I can feel it hit the stops, not so for the rear.

What is really correct?

Prevost Jacksonville told me thats why it is called Level Low:p

[Yankee802]

That is so cool, would love to have a double decker. There is a double VanHool at a nearby tour company with one. One day on the way back from Pensacola, we found and talked to the owner of this (http://www.ourodyssey.us/index.html). Very nice.

[Devin W]

That is so cool, would love to have a double decker. There is a double VanHool at a nearby tour company with one. One day on the way back from Pensacola, we found and talked to the owner of this (http://www.ourodyssey.us/index.html). Very nice.

Great link! My wife and I daydreamed about how cool that Neoplan I posted would be having two levels and then it occurred to us that by the time we bought it and paid someone to gut and properly outfit the interior (let alone address any potential mechanical issues), we would be able to raise the roof and add a level to our Prevost! I still have to respect what those guys did with their bus, though. Well planned and thought out once they found they were in the thick of it.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

A double decker bus is a great concept, but it has to start life as one. Our coaches are just not suitable for two levels due to the structural design.

Legal height limits around the country are 13' 6". take away 12" of ground clearance and divide the difference by 2 and considering the thickness of the floors and roof and the floor to ceiling dimensions are less than 6' 3", more likely 6' or less. Then consider how much of our bay space can be used for living area. It will not be the space for the holding tanks, or the space for fuel, or the space for the generator. Then take away the space required for the axles and the engine.

Pretty soon the result is a double decker with seriously compromised ceiling heights and a minimal gain in floor space due to the need for the stuff listed above. There is a reason why the Neoplan and other double decker concepts have never been embraced by converters. All of a sudden slides make a lot of sense.

Besides, who wants to drive a bus from a position that puts our eyes about even with where our headlights are? I often wonder how a driver of a vehicle with compromised stopping distances likes sitting so low he cannot see ahead so he can anticipate problems.

[Devin W]

We just got back from our maiden voyage after having extensive engine and transmission work done and after nearly 4000 miles of driving the consensus is good. The bus hasn't run as smoothly or assertively since we've owned it and the transmission is shifting great. The engine and trans temps are also back down in the comfort zone with none of the dramatic fluctuations we were having before.

That being said, we certainly had a plenty of other excitement as we headed out to Florida to see what was to be one of the last space shuttle launches. My Dad has worked for (what is now) USA Space for over 25 years and prior to this trip, the closest I had come to witnessing a launch first-hand was t-2:00 -- then it got scrubbed. The launch originally scheduled for November 1st was our target so I pulled my 10 year old daughter out of school for a bit, we loaded up the bus and headed to Florida.

Our first evening on the road proved to be eventful. More so for the deer than for us:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x150/cs427fanatic/Prevost%20Liberty%20Coach/IMG_0670-1.jpg
That was where the main impact was and there is some additional cosmetic damage down the passenger side where it would seem hooves and/or antlers rolled down the side, but from the inside there was only a solid "thunk" that both my wife and daughter slept through. We happened to be heading east on I-70 in Kansas at about 11PM. There was no other traffic to speak of around us for nearly two hours, until of course, there were three deer standing in my lane with a car tailgating me and another in the other lane passing me at about 0.5 MPH increments. I certainly wasn't going to make any radical maneuvers. I replaced the bulbs in the headlight and parking light and taped them up with clear and orange tape and after a call to notify the insurance company we were set for the remainder of the trip.

We had made arrangements to stay at The Great Outdoors near Titusville, since my folks live in town and it looked like a nice place -- not to mention a bargain since we were staying for six nights and only paid for four with their current promotion. My wife wanted something with a water view, so I made that request that landed us this nice spot:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x150/cs427fanatic/Florida%20trip%202010/IMG_0695-1.jpg

Not long after arriving, a friendly neighbor came over to give us the nature talk. Having seen this little one running around:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x150/cs427fanatic/Florida%20trip%202010/IMG_0696-1.jpg
The neighbor thought it would be prudent to warn us of this guy:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x150/cs427fanatic/Florida%20trip%202010/IMG_1930-1.jpg

...continued in next post...

[Devin W]

...continued from last post...

We soon noticed that once we set up camp, he decided he would too and spent quite a bit of time lurking off the bank. The next day a pond maintenance guy came around throwing a line in (probably auditing the fish) and we watched as the gator stalked him as he walked the entire perimeter of the pond. Early the next morning a different guy showed up and asked a few questions about the gator. Not long after -- he dragged the gator out of the pond and apparently initiated its trip to what would likely be Paris to be reincarnated as a medium size ladies handbag:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x150/cs427fanatic/Florida%20trip%202010/IMG_1946-1.jpg

That was rather exciting seeing a little gator wrangling considering we're from Colorado. Sure we have mountain lions, bobcats, rattlesnakes, etc -- but no gators. The "pest control" guy said after inspecting the gator closely that it was a problem. He could tell by the wear on the claws and the scales on it's back that it spent a fair amount of time getting around through the larger drainpipes and cruising paved/concrete surfaces. It also was apparently not very afraid of people.

My daughter was concerned about being able to go trick or treating since she was away from home, but my dad did a little research to find the most candy-laden neighborhood and after my mom helped her with the requested "hippy" costume. She satisfactorily managed to fulfill the yearly tradition:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x150/cs427fanatic/Florida%20trip%202010/224f779e-1.jpg

While visiting with my folks their neighbors brought out something unusual that I've never seen before. I call it a funky chicken, they call them "silkies":
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x150/cs427fanatic/Florida%20trip%202010/IMG_0708-1.jpg

All of that was great entertainment while the launch continually got moved back. We spent a day at the beach in Fort Desoto with the wonderful powdered sugar-like sand and then the next day we went to Cocoa Beach to play in the waves and make the stop at the original Ron Jon's. Of course, they have them in quite a few places now, but it has become a traditional to get a t-shirt or something from that one when we are in town.

You'll notice in my picture of our site that I have my awning up. That was the first time that I ever extended it to the nearly horizontal position. Unfortunately, that slipped my mind during one of the heavier downpours and I woke up at 5AM to the sound of a crash outside. I immediately thought I knew what it was and was validated as soon as I peeked out a window and saw only black. Fortunately, the damage was minimal. A couple of support ends broken and the main awning tube was bent, but the fabric was fine and not damage to the coach at the attachment points. I was able to straighten to tube so I could at least re-wind the spring and retract the awning securely for the trip home.

We ended up getting skunked on the launch as they finally scrubbed it on Friday. We were scheduled to leave that day, but waited to hear that morning to see if there was any chance of it happening. If so, we would wait it out in town at the mall parking lot, if not, we would hit the road...so off to the open road.

On the way home we decided to make a stop in Chattanooga to check out Ruby Falls. We had seen signs on the way down, but didn't really know what it was. A little bit of quick internet research yielded that it was worth the stop. The only thing that the internet didn't reveal was that driving a 40ft bus towing a mid-size SUV up there was not a great idea. I specifically looked for parking info, but didn't see anything. So we went for it, and managed to escape unscathed, although I had to unhook the toad to get turned around and back down the mountain. It was worth it though:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x150/cs427fanatic/Florida%20trip%202010/fd8a85fc-1.jpg

The rest of the trip home was uneventful -- now to find a good repair shop! If you made it through all of that I hope you enjoyed the story. We're already looking forward to the next trip!

[Sid Tuls]

Yes i did enjoy reading about your journey. Life doesn't get much better than that. Oh the bus thats just minor in the overhaul picture of life. Just wondering about deer whistles that I,ve seen attached to the mirrors if they work or just another gimmic? My brother has them but gave me a smart ass answer "I haven't hit a deer since i put them on" end of story.

[Devin W]

Yes i did enjoy reading about your journey. Life doesn't get much better than that. Oh the bus thats just minor in the overhaul picture of life. Just wondering about deer whistles that I,ve seen attached to the mirrors if they work or just another gimmic? My brother has them but gave me a smart ass answer "I haven't hit a deer since i put them on" end of story.

Sid, glad you enjoyed it. I enjoyed thinking about the small things as I wrote it. I've had the same response about deer whistles. In fact, on this past trip as a guy was looking at the damage he asked me if I had considered them and when I inquired if they work, he answered exactly as your brother did. This was the first time that I had ever hit a deer (or large animal) and I've driven quite a lot of miles -- even drove a truck criss-crossing the country following races for a few years with a lot of night time driving. I'm just glad that we were in the bus vs. one of our regular cars. The outcome might have been alot different.

[Woody]

FWIW

We just drove from Maine though NH, MA,NY, PA, VA, WV,TN,NC,SC,GA and FL - Joanie counted 39 deer road kills before she stopped counting.

Hunting law limits should certainly be relaxed.

[Devin W]

We finally got our estimate for the damage from the deer incident completed. Keep in mind that the damage is all cosmetic (we've used and driven the bus nearly 5000 miles since the incident). It came in right at $20K :eek: !

I sent the estimate along with some pics I took to our adjuster (he's located in Florida) and after a quick review he said that the pics support the estimate and things are now in process for the repair.

Of course, it's going to take about two weeks for the parts as a couple need to be fabricated and then another week for polishing the panels....the great thing, though, is that the company doing the repair doesn't even want the bus until he has all of the parts in hand and ready to do the work, so it doesn't have just sit waiting on parts.

Can't wait to have everything all pretty again!

[Coloradobus]

Devin, who is doing your repair? Just future information since I have burned my bridges at Prevost Ft Worth.
Hey, I think I saw you guys heading west on I-70 going up Mt Vernon Canyon a few weeks ago.

[Devin W]

We're using Sameday RV Body & Paint Repair ( http://samedayinc.com/ ).

I started this process by asking the outfit that does the bulk of my engine and chassis stuff who he would recommend and he gave me two places out of Denver. I called the first, Divine Coach, and I wasn't particularly impressed with the demeanor of the guy on the phone. He seemed to be under the impression that he is the only one around that fixes buses and he said so. He also seemed to be unable to describe any repairs in specific detail as far as how they were done. He made a lot of MCI references, which as a Prevost owner, really meant nothing to me. The second place was Colorado Coach (I believe). I called them twice, an operator took my number and message twice, and I never got a call back.

I found Sameday on the interwebs. In fact, they were the only ones to come up with a site specific to repair when I did a search for local resources. I sent them a message through the website and got a response within a few hours. I spoke to Ian on the phone and he was able to provide details on how the work was done and the things to be aware of and since he happens to live in Ft Collins (his shop is in Johnstown) he actually came to my house to make the estimate. When he saw the coach I explained my concerns about having the job done well and he said two things that made me feel a little better: 1) based on what he saw, since there was no structural damage, any place experienced in buses should be able to do a decent job (we need just a little paint done on the entry door), but more importantly 2) he said you don't pay until you're satisfied with the outcome.

He is a smaller outfit, but he apparently does warranty work for several coach companies, Vantare in particular. He seemed to know most of the Prevost buses in Northern, CO. I'll let you know the outcome.

You probably did see us heading out to CA. I spent a week working out there and I typically take the bus, wife, dogs and camp out in Newport.

How the bus shopping going for you?