Xantrex inverter dead?

[Trendycat]

The Xantrex Freedom 458 thew an overtemp fault light a couple of weeks ago. I reset and thought everything was OK, but I have no lights on the inverter or remote panel when just sitting or on engine alone. Everything looks fine while on shore power or generator power - but nothing on inverter alone.

Anyone know of a good shop in the Phoenix area (boy, it's hot here at this time of year!) where I can get this checked out?

Thanks,
Bruce

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

I have not had personal experience with this shop, but I think some others have. Dessert West Coach http://www.desertwestcoach.com/

See if they can help you.

Gary S.

[gmcbuffalo]

Bruce sounds like the problem I had or maybe still have. I pushed the red CB buttom and the fan came on for the inverter, so I thought that was the problem. Keep us posted on what you find out.
GregM

[Trendycat]

Went through the troubleshooting steps at the Xantrex web site and it seems that there is no power to the inverter from the batteries. I guess that means there is either a bad connection between the batteries and the inverter or a blown fuse in that circuit.

I've checked what I can - most of the lines in the electrical area in the engine compartment are not labeled. What I don't understand is - if there is a bad connection between the batteries and the inverter, why do they charge on the AC pass through and yet not send current to the inverter. Is there a different loop for charge and draw?

Only having this problem with the Xantrex Freedom 458 (not even sure what model it is since I can't see any plate on it without completely disconnecting and removing it from the box it's in. (I know it's a dual AC in/out but don't know if it's a 2500 or 3000W unit) The older Heart inverter right next to it is working fine.

This problem most likely exceeds my meager electrical troubleshooting skills - so I'll need to take it to a shop to have it looked at. The problem here in Phoenix at the moment is the temperature (we full time and the cats won't like sitting in a bus without A/C for hours while diagnosis/repair is underway.)

Since I don't have a problem while on shore or genny power, I'll probably wait until the end of September when my short term work contract is up here and either run to Prevost in Mira Loma, CA before we head to the ABQ balloon fiesta or go to a shop in the Albuquerque area if anyone has a recommendation there.

Thanks,
Bruce

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Bruce.......I think I understand what you are saying and something doesn't add up. That may be because I do not know how Bluebird did the circuits.

If you are not getting power from the batteries to the inverter, then it follows you will not charge the batteries when you are on shore or generator power. Did I understand that correctly? If so something isn't right with the analysis.

[Trendycat]

Jon,

That's what I can't figure out. While on shore or genny power, both the inverter and the remote panel show full charge on the batteries. Once you disconnect shore or genny power, the remote and inverter displays go blank and the inverter won't start up either locally or from the remote panel.

When I check voltage on the battery lines at the inverter while on shore/genny power, I get 13-13.5 volts.

Xantrex troubleshooting says to disconnect shore/genny power and then try to start inverter both remotely and locally. If it doesn't start (which it doesn't) then check DC voltage at battery connection on inverter. When I do that, I get only 5-6 mA readings. According to Xantrex, that means there is a DC connection problem between the batteries and the inverter?

I don't see any obvious problems on the cables between the inverter and the section of the engine electrical compartment that has a hand labeled "inverter" arrow drawn on it. However, I can't see all the cables easily, I'm not sure that the label applies to the Xantrex inverter and not the Heart inverter (which is working fine) and trying to check all of this out in the 100 degree heat and sun is probably going to cause a short if I drip any more sweat on the wiring :D.

So, since this appears to be beyond my meager electrical skills I'll probably head to Prevost Car either in Mira Loma or Fort Worth at the end of September before the ABQ balloon fiesta, unless I can figure it out or find a good shop before then.

Thanks,
Bruce

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Bruce, If you get 13 to 13.5V at the battery cables at the inverter, are you getting the same voltage at the batteries?

Both Dale and Granvil had open circuits caused by a fuse or safety device in the battery cable system and maybe they can help you with the diagnosis. But I cannot get past the fact you appear to have power going in one direction, from the inverter charger to the batteries, but not from the batteries to the inverter. Regardless of whether you have power into the inverter, or the inverter is converting battery power to 120V you should see DC voltage at the battery connections

[ajducote]

Bruce,

There should be a large 300 to 400 AMP DC fuze somewhere between the Batteries and the inverter. Check the voltage on each side of the fuze. The side going to the batteries should show the same as the battery voltage. The other end of the fuze woud show 0 volts if the fuze is blown and the inverter is OFF and not trying to charge the batteries.

[gmcbuffalo]

Bruce are you also saying that the batteries are good because the old Heart inverter will power your 110 v circuits when you have no shore or genny power? Do you know if your two inverters are connected to the same single battery bank or does each inverters connect to it's own bank (set) of batteries? If you have two banks of batteries maybe the bank for the Trace inverter are dead.
GregM

[Jay Becker]

I sure wouldn't ask Mira Loma to look at an inverter problem, especially after watching them try to diagnose a relay problem that IS Prevost. I would suggest talking to Mark Roundy at West Coast Marine Electric in West Los Angeles, CA. He actually services these things and could walk you through the troubleshooting, and repair the unit if that's the indicated step. He also often has rebuilt units in stock, and is a dealer for new ones, as well as for Victron Energy, which in my experience/opinion is a far better inverter/charger choice if you end up replacing it.

Mark's number at WCME is (310) 636-8400 - he's got a plastic coach and sells some RV parts as well. You can tell him I sent you and ask for a deal (I buy a lot for the boat and bus there, and he takes pretty good care of me).

Good luck,

Jay

[Trendycat]

Thanks for all of the help so far - it appears the problem is a blown fuse - one of the fuses is only showing voltage on one side when everything is shut down and running on inverters only. (Batteries are all fine - I have 6 Lifeline AGM's that are less than 2 years old)

Next issue:

The Bluebird plant cut some corners on the electrical when they built all of the units and wrapped the fuses in electrical tape and clamped them in place rather than using a fuse holder. I would like to redo them with proper fuse holders, but don't have the tools/expertise to make the new cables I would need to reposition and insert new fuse holders.

I asked on the Wanderlodge forum, but most of those guys are big into DIY - so they had no suggestions of a shop to do the work (other than one in FL).

So, any suggestions on who would be competent to do this kind of work and located somewhere on a line from So Cal to Dallas, TX? I had a great deal of non-electrical work done at Prevost Fort Worth in Jan of this year and was very pleased - could they handle this?

Here are a couple of photos of a '95 Wanderlodge with a similar wiring setup to mine. The first photo shows the original setup, the second after the fuse holders have been installed.

7097
7098

Thanks for all of the help so far.

BTW although I'm not setup to handle this repair/upgrade, I am an authorized AquaHot / Webasto mobile service center. If you ever need AquaHot / Webasto parts or service, let me know. (I offer a special discount to fellow POGgers.)

Bruce

[ajducote]

Bruce,

If you want to try to fix it yourself, look for a local NAPA store that carries truck parts. I have had good luck getting cables and hoses made for very reasonable prices.

Here is 1 source for the fuze and holders.

http://www.tekrispower.com/inverters/product_info.php/cPath/61/products_id/565?osCsid=da625e459fb646f321943afef846cb51

[BenC]

If you don't mind wandering a little farther north to Tulsa Oklahoma, we have good friends at Tulsa RV in Catoosa (suburb to the east) which is completely capable of performing any work you need done along the lines of battery cabling/wiring/fusing. Let me know and I'll look up the phone number for you.

The other scary situation I have seen on Wanderlodge units is that generic conduit clamps, with no loom or rubber or other insulating material were used to fasten down battery power cables to the metal structure of the coach. Over time, the clamps tend to wear through the insulation and poof, literally. The instance I witnessed most recently gave the strongest motivation for the customer to trade out of the coach I think I have ever seen! My stongest advise, no matter what brand/make/model coach someone owns is to have the battery cabling and terminals inspected for abrasion and all terminals tightened REGULARLY. That is probably the only reason I haven't seen more birds burnt up...the fact that most of the owners, being do-it-yourselfers, perform inspections regularly and catch those issues.

[Trendycat]

Ben,

Thanks for the info about Tulsa - that's well out of the way of where I prefer to be, but if it turns out to be the only recommendation in the area, then I'll try to detour up to there.

I followed the issues surrounding the fires in some of the mid-90's birds last year and checked all of the cables and connections I could see on mine. Strangely, almost all of my cables seem to be wrapped in plastic loom - I don't know whether it came from the factory that way or was done later. My chassis number predates a couple of the buses that had problems and a number of my wiring runs look significantly different than the photos I've seen of those. However, I still plan on having the fuse blocks redone properly (similar to the photos I posted earlier) and all the wiring runs reviewed/checked as thoroughly as possible at that time, as well.

Prior commitments prevent me from making it to FL this year or I'd visit Coachworx for the repairs. I'm trying to get this work done in a narrow window at the end of September / beginning of October so that I can make it back to ABQ for the balloon fiesta - which is why I'm trying to find a shop no further than Texas. I figure I can make the run from Arizona either west to So Cal or (preferably) east to Texas and back to Albuquerque in that window, but probably no farther than that.

Thanks,
Bruce

[gmcbuffalo]

Again I think this is something Desert West in Phoenix can do for you. Just show them the before and after pictures.
GregM

[travelite]

Bruce,

Your wiring loom is original. Blue Bird did a good job with chassis wiring as the evidence points out: been building Wanderlodges since 1964, most of which are still on the road, wiring fires can be counted on one hand. I'm still looking for the conduit clamps, can't find any.

[Trendycat]

I went over to what used to be Desert West Coach in Phoenix today. They went out of business in February 2010. According to the few people left there, a new owner took over in May 2010 and the business is now named Divine Coach Care. I saw a few seated coaches there with "Divine Coach Transport" on them, so I assume it may be a small local transport / bus line operation.

Their "inverter tech" wasn't in this week so I'll evaluate whether I'll return there next week.

It's always sad to see these businesses that were once obviously quite successful reduced to a small staff and a bunch of empty, decaying buildings.

Bruce

[Trendycat]

I want to thank everyone for the tips and help provided here, I finally got my inverter issues sorted out.

I had John Bata at Divine Coach (formerly Desert West) replace my strange factory fuse arrangement with proper fuse holders. However, replacing the blown fuse didn't fix the problem - leaving the Xantrex inverter as the prime suspect. Divine had no inverters in stock, but after calling around I found some units at Tekris in Gilbert, AZ.

Although they carry Xantrex, I opted to go with Magnum for the replacement, since they are made and supported here in the US. Once the failed Xantex unit was removed, I looked at the other inverter (a Heart Freedom 25) and discovered it was original to my bus. Figuring a 15 year old unit was likely to be approaching the end of its functional life, I had it replaced, as well.

So, I now have 2 new Magnum ME3112 inverters along with new remote panels for them. Magnums also come with battery temperature monitors, included so that should help avoid some issues that could develop with my Lifeline AGM's if they underwent non-temperature compensated charging. The new remotes are great - they have a screen that provides way more status information (including battery, FET and transformer temperatures at the inverter) than the LED display bars on the old inverters.

I highly recommend Brian (who runs the branch) and Vince (the tech) at Tekris Power in Gilbert, AZ. In my opinion, the price for the units and labor was more than fair. Whether you need work done or just want to order inverters and parts, I would strongly suggest you give them a call. I don't know if their main operation in NJ is of the same quality, but I would certainly check them out, as well, if I were on the East Coast.


Bruce

[Jturney081]

Hi Bruce,
Did you ever figure out what the problem was? I'm getting no power to my appliances and electrical sockets when using the house batteries. The lights and toilet will work, but no refrigerator, radio, or outlets.

Everything works when connected to shore power or when the generator is running. I have two Xantrex Heart Freedom 25 inverters and a Marathon 5600 emergency management system remote on the dash. I turn the inverter switches off in the bay when powered up and turn the inverters on/off from the remote on the dash.

I've already disconnected the power to both inverters and let them sit for about an hour before reconnecting them to the batteries. No change...

Ant suggestions?

Jeff Turney
1993 Prevost Marathon XL

[Gil_J]

Bruce,

I'm surprised anyone would have sold you modified sine wave inverters. Although your coach came with MSW units, the added cost of a pure or true sine wave inverter today is almost nothing when compared to the MSW version from the same manufacturer.



I want to thank everyone for the tips and help provided here, I finally got my inverter issues sorted out.

I had John Bata at Divine Coach (formerly Desert West) replace my strange factory fuse arrangement with proper fuse holders. However, replacing the blown fuse didn't fix the problem - leaving the Xantrex inverter as the prime suspect. Divine had no inverters in stock, but after calling around I found some units at Tekris in Gilbert, AZ.

Although they carry Xantrex, I opted to go with Magnum for the replacement, since they are made and supported here in the US. Once the failed Xantex unit was removed, I looked at the other inverter (a Heart Freedom 25) and discovered it was original to my bus. Figuring a 15 year old unit was likely to be approaching the end of its functional life, I had it replaced, as well.

So, I now have 2 new Magnum ME3112 inverters along with new remote panels for them. Magnums also come with battery temperature monitors, included so that should help avoid some issues that could develop with my Lifeline AGM's if they underwent non-temperature compensated charging. The new remotes are great - they have a screen that provides way more status information (including battery, FET and transformer temperatures at the inverter) than the LED display bars on the old inverters.

I highly recommend Brian (who runs the branch) and Vince (the tech) at Tekris Power in Gilbert, AZ. In my opinion, the price for the units and labor was more than fair. Whether you need work done or just want to order inverters and parts, I would strongly suggest you give them a call. I don't know if their main operation in NJ is of the same quality, but I would certainly check them out, as well, if I were on the East Coast.


Bruce

[Hoffman]

Gil,
Bruces post was from 11 yrs ago. Is it possible that the MSW solution made more fiscal sense back then?