Elegant Lady Plumbing

[Jon Wehrenberg]

While replacing a failed macerator pump this week I ended up taking apart all the copper piping in the waste water bay to provide easy access to the macerator pump (and to polish the piping to make plastic piping owners envious).

While this post is the perfect opportunity for those not having a coach with such spectacular appearing plumbing to poke fun at us, let this be considered a word of caution for those that do have the pretty polished copper piping.

About 3 or 4 years ago the piping that goes from the top right fitting into the top of the tank at the right (Not shown in the photos) was replaced on my coach. I had just gotten through polishing my slack adjusters and was working on the copper and I noticed the pipe had perforated due to some corrosion that began inside the pipe.

Now the pipe I made to replace the original is showing signs of internal corrosion and its life is limited.

The piping assembly that extends from the center top of the compartment, and two fittings on the tank to the gray water by-pass valve is also showing signs of significant corrosion and in spots of the assembly it is paper thin. It also had extensive internal build up of a black material that would break off in hard chunks. The life of this tubing assembly is also limited.

The centrally located tube which extends from the bottom of the holding tank to the macerator inlet is sound and free of evidence of corrosion. The tube which extends from the top LH fitting to the top of the tank on the left is also free of build up or corrosion.

The photos show the blue corrosion on one of the tubes which indicates the copper is being eaten away. We do not use chemicals other than soap or dishwashing soap so I have no idea what would be causing the corrosion. I chipped some of the black scale from the pipe interior so it is not possible to see how occluded the pipe had become despite being relatively new.

On the photo of the piping the assembly, the left hand side tubing assembly is the second one I consider life limited. The upper portion of this assembly under the clamp at the rubber connector already had perforated completely through, but because of its location I can get more use out of it. It will not be long before I have to remake that assembly.

The last photo shows a 3/4" stub sticking out to the right of the tubing leading to the gray water by-pass. I am revising the macerator discharge so it is introduced to the waste line at that point. As it has been plumbed it exits at the top of the bay and makes a convoluted path to the hose bib at the rear of the bus. It will now share the hose bib with the gray water by-pass. I will post pictures when I am done. I did this to significantly reduce back pressure on the pump by shortening the discharge piping.

My reason for posting this is to alert those with this type of waste water piping to be alert to potential tubing perforations, with the result possibly being a leak of waste water into the bay. Sometimes plastic is good. It is just not as pretty.

[Kenneth Brewer]

You know what to expect, now, after you post pictures of that magnificent copper tubing/piping.

Incoming.

[rfoster]

Geritol Alert!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I kind of expected all sorts of flak, but apparently as this group ages, it also gets mellow. Skiffer wanted me to post that I disassembled the piping to polish the inside. Now we all know that is a little over the top.

I did it once but it was too much work.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Well, thanks for the heads up Jon, but I don't look forward to all that work.

Did you consider Stainless piping to keep all metals in the correct order in the periodic table?

Plastic! Wasn't that the word in "Mrs. Robinson" the movie?

If you get the copper gold plated it will not corrode and you will not have to polish it:o

JIM

[dale farley]

Well Jon, I am truly sorry to see your problems with your Liberty pipes. No negative comments!

[travelite]

You know what to expect, now, after you post pictures of that magnificent copper tubing/piping.

Incoming.

Beauty is only skin deep...

[garyde]

Hi John. When you think about it, copper is vulnerable to minerals and corrosive chemicals. In Sceince labs we do work on, the waste lines are glass. In homes it's either cast iron or plastic. In the street its either concrete, clay or plastic pipes. There are companies who will come into facilities where copper water lines are leaking and dry the pipes out, blast them clean and coat the inside of the pipes with an epoxy like substance.

[gmcbuffalo]

Jon
Are your gate valve metal also?
GregM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The gate valve is a Valterra plastic valve available at Camping World and painted gold.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

So what was wrong with the macerator, electrical or mechanical?


JIM

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

While replacing a failed macerator pump this week I ended up taking apart all the copper piping in the waste water bay to provide easy access to the macerator pump (and to polish the piping to make plastic piping owners envious).

While this post is the perfect opportunity for those not having a coach with such spectacular appearing plumbing to poke fun at us, let this be considered a word of caution for those that do have the pretty polished copper piping.

About 3 or 4 years ago the piping that goes from the top right fitting into the top of the tank at the right (Not shown in the photos) was replaced on my coach. I had just gotten through polishing my slack adjusters and was working on the copper and I noticed the pipe had perforated due to some corrosion that began inside the pipe.

Now the pipe I made to replace the original is showing signs of internal corrosion and its life is limited.

The piping assembly that extends from the center top of the compartment, and two fittings on the tank to the gray water by-pass valve is also showing signs of significant corrosion and in spots of the assembly it is paper thin. It also had extensive internal build up of a black material that would break off in hard chunks. The life of this tubing assembly is also limited.

The centrally located tube which extends from the bottom of the holding tank to the macerator inlet is sound and free of evidence of corrosion. The tube which extends from the top LH fitting to the top of the tank on the left is also free of build up or corrosion.

The photos show the blue corrosion on one of the tubes which indicates the copper is being eaten away. We do not use chemicals other than soap or dishwashing soap so I have no idea what would be causing the corrosion. I chipped some of the black scale from the pipe interior so it is not possible to see how occluded the pipe had become despite being relatively new.

On the photo of the piping the assembly, the left hand side tubing assembly is the second one I consider life limited. The upper portion of this assembly under the clamp at the rubber connector already had perforated completely through, but because of its location I can get more use out of it. It will not be long before I have to remake that assembly.

The last photo shows a 3/4" stub sticking out to the right of the tubing leading to the gray water by-pass. I am revising the macerator discharge so it is introduced to the waste line at that point. As it has been plumbed it exits at the top of the bay and makes a convoluted path to the hose bib at the rear of the bus. It will now share the hose bib with the gray water by-pass. I will post pictures when I am done. I did this to significantly reduce back pressure on the pump by shortening the discharge piping.

My reason for posting this is to alert those with this type of waste water piping to be alert to potential tubing perforations, with the result possibly being a leak of waste water into the bay. Sometimes plastic is good. It is just not as pretty.

With the macerator discharge entering below the graywater by-pass valve wouldn't you then be creating a black water by-pass with no more control than the macerator pump switch or did I miss interpret something you said?

Do you mean when your job is done the grey water will then exit the bus in the right rear at the existing macerator discharge?

I do not have a hose bib at the exit point of my grey water by-pass.
JIM

[truk4u]

Jim,

On mine, the grey water bypass discharge pipe was threaded PVC, so I just adapted down to a garden house fitting.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

My gray water by-pass exits the bay downward as a copper tube, but then it has a No-Hub fitting (a rubber connection) to a PVC elbow to which is attached a copper hose connection.

I am merely rerouting the macerator discharge to go from the macerator outlet to a point on the gray water discharge tube, below the shut off valve and above the floor. To discharge gray water open the valve. To use it for the macerator, close the valve and turn on the macerator pump.

My macerator motor is fine but the pump will not pump. My guess is the impeller is shot. There are kits available so i will rebuild iut and keep it as a spare. With less back pressure to pump the waste the impeller should last much longer. I could have just added a hole in the bottom of the bay and had a hose connection strictly for the macerator but I don't like adding holes.

[hhoppe]

Jon: I guess you know you made my day because my cheapy model Liberty has plastic pipe. I'm sorry to hear you are having the trouble though. I guess I better be happier with my plastic pipe. Maybe I should find some plastic polish and polish them babies up. Well here's the minor bit of flak you anticipated. You are still our fearless leader though. Metal men hate plastic and I'm no exception. We were building solar water tanks of stainless steel, some areas had corrosive fresh water supplies and required copper tanks. So SS would not be an option for waste water. Lead, lead coated copper cast iron or plastic are the only choices.
Cheers

[Gary Carmichael]

Jon, This is probably a dumb question but why did you have to disassemble the piping? On mine I can clean in place, By the way that reaction in that piping could be coming from your water source. Also I use WENOL metal polish, just wipe it on and let dry and polish very easy.Distributor is Reckitt Benckiser a german Co. Tel:+49(0)621-3246-570

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I could use 316 Stainless and that would be sure to work but I think given the prices we used to pay for 316 sheet stock when we made drains for the chemical industry it would be cheaper to replace the bus rather than the piping.

I may be polishing plastic with you Harry, but I like the bling. Roger told me to say that.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary,

I pulled all the piping apart because I needed access to remove the macerator and in doing so I decided to revise the outlet location from the rear of the bus to a fitting at the waste bay. I did replace the one tube previously because it had perforated from some chemical reaction. The replacement is experiencing the same thing and I don't understand that because we do not use any cleaners (we don't use Drano, or toilet bowl chemicals, or even Comet. We do use dish soap and shampoos but maybe it is something I ate like all them oysters at Wintzels.

Every now and then (at least until Kevin took the wind out of my sails) I have to jab the guys on here about such important things as polishing slack adjusters and copper pipes.

BTW, I use Flitz, or Mothers, or Blue Magic (from Walmart), or any other cheap stuff that will work. When I am desperate I use the stuff in the kitchen that is used to polish the bottoms of Revere wear pots.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon, if your trying to zero in on any particular food your eating, I think you might look at all those acidic tomatoes you said you grow and can :rolleyes:
Seriously, didn't you say the water on your mountain top retreat was terrible. Maybe there is a connection.

JIM:o

[truk4u]

Jon,

If your macerator was the same vintage as mine, the impeller parts are no longer available, so I had to change out the entire pump. I found a new pump assembly on e-bay that was a direct replacement, no plumbing changes needed.

[gmcbuffalo]

Jon
Two more question on your system. Is that the Macerator pump I see behind the plastic gray tube? And what is the copper tube with the pressure guage and quick connect fitting?
Thanks Greg

[charlesebrownjr]

If my plumbing was that pretty, I would take the bay door off so when I am on the road, every body could see it. It really is pretty!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Greg, The macerator is secured to the ceiling of the bay, an arms length in from the outside of the coach, and yes that is it with the gray water line passing in front of it. The water line will be secured when I install the outlet piping today. I installed the large water pressure gauge and I also added the plumbing for a hose with a ball valve. The coach originally had a spigot, up high and to the left and it was difficult to attach a hose to it and harder still to turn it on and off so I revised it so I can easily access the hose fitting and open and close the valve. The pressure gauge was just to replace the smaller one that was previously installed. The big one is easier to see.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

With the new macerator in place the easiest thing to do would be to reattach the old original macerator outlet tubing and call it done. However I have never been satisfied with the macerator outlet hose connection in the rear of the bus under the bumper.

I also was of the opinion the problem with the original macerator had to do with the large length of piping and tubing just to get to the point at which I could attach the drain hose. So I now have my macerator outlet sharing the grey water by-pass outlet. I don't know the magic of arranging the photos or adding text between them so I will attempt to tell the story and perhaps when looking at the photos it makes sense. I also think the same modification can be made to liberty Classic plumbing if the owner has the same concerns I have.

I started by adding a "tee" to the gray water by-pass tube below the gate valve. I then created the 3/4" copper tubing assembly which was simple to make using a few elbows and straight connectors. The straight connectors are used because they are the same diameter as the inside diameter of the macerator outlet elbow and the braided plastic tubing.

I connected the outlet tubing assembly to the tee at the bottom and to the macerator at the top. It is simple so there is not much to tell. I "abandoned" the original outlet and have not removed or modified it. If I do not like the changes I can easily revert back to the original configuration and rehook the macerator to the original outlet tubing.

But with the new outlet installed it looks like it belongs and it should make it easier to use the macerator. The old macerator will be rebuilt and retained as a spare. It appears the impeller cracked and lost a portion of one of the legs which caused the failure. It is easy to disassemble and repair.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Gary,

I pulled all the piping apart because I needed access to remove the macerator and in doing so I decided to revise the outlet location from the rear of the bus to a fitting at the waste bay. I did replace the one tube previously because it had perforated from some chemical reaction. The replacement is experiencing the same thing and I don't understand that because we do not use any cleaners (we don't use Drano, or toilet bowl chemicals, or even Comet. We do use dish soap and shampoos but maybe it is something I ate like all them oysters at Wintzels.

Every now and then (at least until Kevin took the wind out of my sails) I have to jab the guys on here about such important things as polishing slack adjusters and copper pipes.

BTW, I use Flitz, or Mothers, or Blue Magic (from Walmart), or any other cheap stuff that will work. When I am desperate I use the stuff in the kitchen that is used to polish the bottoms of Revere wear pots.

Connecting this reply to the above post. I found an article on the pitting of copper piping.
Here is the link, after which is an excerpt from the link that may point to the underlying reason for the corrosion/pitting.

http://www.toolbase.org/Building-Systems/Plumbing/copper-pinhole-leaks

Combination of: use of soft waters with low pH; high suspended solids and assimilable organic carbon content; long-term or periodic water stagnation; low or nonexistent chlorine levels; maintenance of water temperatures that promote rapid growth and activity of naturally occurring bacteria; and/or the lack of an adequate monitoring program to periodically evaluate water quality and pipe wall condition

JIM:cool:

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Another one, scroll down to corrosion of copper.

http://www.mrwa.com/OP-Corrosion.pdf


JIM

[Gary Carmichael]

Gents, Jon your plumbing bay looks like one of those good old copper stills we have here in the mountains of S.W. V.A. Matter of fact I am drinking some peach brandy from one of those right now, You got to have the spifyest water bay going looks good!

[GDeen]

All this discussion about Jon's plumbing and impaction problems is starting to feel a little wierd....shouldn't we set up a proctology section or something for those who want to discuss such matters?