License Costs?

[Ray Davis]

I'm wondering what other people pay for licensing their coach on a yearly basis with the DMV? I've got an older coach (1993), and just received my first yearly bill from the DMV for nearly $1000. I was a bit surprised on a 14 year old vehicle.

Anyone will to share what their yearly expenses are? Did I get classified correctly?


Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ray, That is the price you pay for living in Paradise. Over here in redneck country each county differs, with ours being outrageous due to a recently imposed wheel tax. We have to pay $60 annually. It was $30 the year before las.

In NY our bus used to cost $65 per year.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

$110 per year in Illinois plus $35 for a vehical sticker, because we park it at home, and $35 for the annual air polution test. Sounds like you might be "Movin to Montana"

[merle&louise]

Ray,

Down in cajun country, we pay $45 per year plus $10 for a brake tag.:D

[Ray Davis]

Yikes, it's time to move!!!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Ray, Montana has some VERY PREFFERABLE tax laws for those of you in states that are costly in this regard. Mango did it, Im sure there are others. Its a little bit of effort but well worth it. You form a corp. there and use there tags. It will save mucho sales tax when buying also.

Dont have to move,
I dread the thought:rolleyes:

[Ray Davis]

Hmm, maybe a discussion item at POG?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I think it would be a good item for discussion because there are advantages in registering with your home state, and advantages in setting up an LLC or business to register in another state. Both have disadvantages also.

In VA the cost of registration is so high, the alternatives are better. In CA, if I am not mistaken (like NY) the tax chasers are very good at ferreting out those that evade paying the cash strapped state its due, and when you get caught the penalties are harsh.

[Ray Davis]

In CA, when you register a vehicle (new or used) for the first time you effectively pay the state sales tax rate. In my county that was 7.75%, so registering a bus can be a pricey proposition.

I guess it's fairly common (with cars at least) that people try to avoid paying the road taxes by registering out of state. I've been told that they now have people watching out of state plates on the highways, and when they see the same plate for more than 30 days, they can go after you.

I've never seen it happen, or actually hear about anyone getting caught, but I've heard the warnings.

I think it might be cheaper to move!! CA is getting way to expensive, and I wanna get one of those large garages and dig a pit too!! :D

Ray

[lewpopp]

I have a 90 and registered in Montana. It is a permanent registration and I now pay no yearly fees. I believe you would qualify with the older coach. I cost me a few bucks over double the yearly cost but I'll never pay any more after this year.

Lew

[MangoMike]

Ray,

A free call to these guys would be in order. This is their specialty and they will provide you with a printout per state as the legalities. Worth the call to Alain, you can use my name.

Bennett Law Office
135 W. Main St.
Missoula, MT 59802
866.543.5803

Alain B. Burrese

Mike

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The methods the authorities use to catch cheaters goes beyond the local cop seeing the same out of state plate. The tow car plate should match the bus plate. The driver's license should match also.

A Montana LLC for example is a legal way to get around that because you can legally live in CA and drive a vehicle owned by a company you own in another state, but that begs the issue of if the coach is now a commercial vehicle such as the leased entertainer's coaches, thus requiring a commercial license and other things like a DOT inspection?

The whole topic is one of risk versus reward, and the biggest advantage comes in deciding before the coach is purchased what you will do so you not only get favorable licensing costs but sales tax treatment. If you get caught cheating however the consequences are daunting. We were at a PP rally in San Antonio about 15 years ago and an owner of a new bus just paid CA over $75000 in fines, plus the sales tax and registration that was due because he falsely registered the bus in Oregon (I think), registered his new (expensive) tow vehicle in Nevada, and had no residence or business in either. His driver license was CA. That was back when some converters helped buyers evade sales tax with PO Box addresses, which after a year or two would be dropped and the owner would re-register in their home state to beat the tax.

[lewpopp]

I've heard of some guys getting some stiff fines. I also understand that the majority of the people fined were the ones that parked their coach in plain view so the authorities could see it day after day at their residences.

I own a dude ranch in Montana, dude.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Ray, Look through the adds in the rear of for example Motor Home Mag. There are several attorneys advertising to set up the LLC via. Fax and Mail. You are supposed to get the license and pay the tax to the entity where the bus or anything else will primarrily be used. If you maintain a residence in Ca. and park in a place where your plate can be seen from the road and you drive around town a lot you stand a chance of getting caught. If however you are fulltiming or part timing you would probably be OK as you are not in any one place too long, and that is the circumstance that brought this all about. You can own anything through the LLC but stationary machinery in a plant for example, to avoid the personal property tax would get you into trouble. JIM

[Jeff Bayley]

I use Bennett Law Office like Mike suggested and they are pro's at setting this type of thing up to be all legal. They got my existing business licenced to do business IN MONTANA so that it satisfies the letter of the law. I don't tow a vehicle so the aspect of the tow vehicle matching didn't come into play. I've been ID's by a half dozen police in the last 2.5 years since I did it and it has never even come up as a question as to why the tag differs from my California isssued drivers licence. Not so much as a mention.

[win42]

My coach had Oregon plates on it when I bought it. I had a address available to me in Oregon. I bought plates in Oregon for the first six years. After considering the reasons stated above, and the nosey neighbors I finally changed to CA plates to match my place of residence. In getting my vin number certfied by a CHP to complete the license purchase, I was told; Even if I'm retired and not working in the state, if I claimed a property tax exemption on my place of residence, I must register my vehicles in CA. I have been told by other individuals, you can buy a vehicle in another State and keep it out of state for a prescribed period of time and put on 3,000 - 5,000 miles you can avoid sales tax. Check with CA DMV on that one for sure. However if you bring an expensive Prevost to be licensed here you will be charged large license fees acording to the vehicles current evaluation. My Oregon fees for two years were less than one year in CA and I have an old coach. If you work here, own property here I think you are required under law to buy the license here.
I did not do it out of the goodness of my heart, I did it to avoid penalty. In my opinion you cannot give the State of California enough money to piss away on useless endeavors. They get me for almost ten percent on my retirement income in state income taxes, not to mention sales and a laundry list of other taxes and fees. I owe them nothing, especially for the beat up deteriated roads we drive on.

[MangoMike]

I'm casting the first vote.

HARRY FOR GOVERNOR!


MM

Just a side note: In Northern Va. you pay a YEARLY personal property tax on all your vehicles to the tune of 4.2% of the appraised value.

[Ben]

Will you please pay my taxes out of the goodness of your heart (or better yet the payments on a 2007 Prevost)? For me, it's a matter of law and if there is a way to legally avoid the tax. In some states you can and in others you can't. There are a few law firms in Montana that will give you a summary of the law based on your state of residence. I wouldn't trust their interpretation (since they do not practice law in your state)... so hire a tax attorney in your state (like I did) to analyze the laws and give you advice to see if it's possible to LEGALLY avoid paying the tax. If you haven't checked the facts, then I would not suggest a Montana Limited Liability Corporation (LLC) since it might not be compatible with the laws in your state of residence.

When you buy a bus using an LLC, the LLC is the legal owner of the bus and it assumes the tax obligations of that purchase. Since the LLC is based in Montana, and Montana doesn't have sales tax, then no tax is owed on the purchase. The key then is to make sure that the laws in your state of residence will not assume you are the owner (instead of the LLC) or have other restrictions that will require you to register the vehicle in your state of residence (like not being able to park an out of state vehicle on your property for more than 30 days, etc.).

I'm a resident of Texas (although I own no land there and have only been there for three days this year) because they have no state income taxes and their laws make it possible to drive a bus that is owned by a Montana LLC. Texas law would require me to register my bus there if I were to have it in the state for more than 30 consecutive days (although even that is not 100% certain since the bus is not owned by me directly... it's owned by the LLC). I have no plans to be there that long, and if I did, I'd just drive over the border and pay to park at an RV park for a night before returning to the state. Other states have different laws that might not be compatible with having a vehicle being registered in a different state, so please get legal advice from a lawyer before making any decision and make sure that info is from someone who practices law in your state. If you're fulltime like me, then you can choose which state is considered your residence and therefor choose a state that is compatible with the Montana thing to avoid paying sales tax.

I could not remain a Colorado resident because their law states something to the effect of: If I'm in control of the vehicle for more than 30 days (regardless if my name is on the title or not, and regardless if I ever take the bus to Colorado or not), then I will be considered the owner and must register the vehicle in Colorado. The key here is that I'd be considered the owner.

I carry a document in the bus that is from the Montana LLC (which legally is the owner of the bus) that states that I have the right to drive the bus (the Montana law firm I used to setup the LLC created this for me). That document can be presented to the highway patrol if you're pulled over to give them an explanation as to why my toad has different plates than the bus (since I own the toad and the LLC owns the bus).

If you were to actually review the laws in most states, you'd find that many of us should have registered our vehicles in states that we have visited (if you were there for more than 30 days). But it's not realistic to change the registration for such visits and I don't know that anyone is checking up on that kind of stuff on a regular basis.

So, if you are at all interested in doing the Montana LLC thing to avoid paying sales tax, you really need to talk to a tax attorney to see if it makes since in your specific situation. It won't work for everyone since you might be a resident of a state that would require you to register the vehicle there (even though your name is not on the vehicle's title).

I will be able to permanently register my Prevost in Montana next year... that means no more yearly registration fees! (that's for coaches that are 10 years old or older).

Please don't try to make people feel guilty for working around the law without violating it. I will not pay taxes out of the goodness of my heart... I'll only do it when it is legally required and I am not able to change my situation in such a way that would allow me to legally avoid the tax. If you have a problem with that, then please try to get the laws changed to make what I'm doing illegal and then I'll stop doing it.

Just drive through any RV park... Jeez, people who live in Montana must make a lot of dough since they seem to own half the rigs in the park and are on vacation all the time. I have yet to meet anyone who has a Montana plate who is actually a resident of Montana. I'm sure they're out there, but I think the majority own an Montana LLC instead.

[MangoMike]

Nice informative post Ben.

"I carry a document in the bus that is from the Montana LLC (which legally is the owner of the bus) that states that I have the right to drive the bus. That document can be presented to the highway patrol if you're pulled over to give them an explanation as to why my toad has different plates than the bus (since I own the toad and the LLC owns the bus)."

Who produced this document for you. Can you email me a copy?

Mike@mangomikes.com

Thanks

MM

[garyde]

I,m registering mine in Zimbabwae! Who,s gona question that!

[merle&louise]

Question:

If you can save money by registering the coach in Montana; why not save money by registering the toad in Montana?:confused:

[lewpopp]

It certainly makes sense. I licensed my car (new) in Montana when I purchased it without a trade so I didn't have to pay the long sales tax. Then when I purchased the coach, I just gave the dealer Bennett's address. Easy as pie. I only need one insurance policy instead of two.

I was going to license my coach and car in Florida and when I found out the increased cost of insurance, and the cost of re-licensing the vehicle, I passed. It was several hundred dollars and my coach has a permanent registration on it now so it won't cost me a nickle from here on out

Lew

[Ben]

I will eventually get my car into the LLC, but I purchased the car before I setup the LLC... before I bought the bus, so sales tax has already been paid, so there is no hurry to get it into the LLC.

[jelmore]

It certainly makes sense. I licensed my car (new) in Montana when I purchased it without a trade so I didn't have to pay the long sales tax. Then when I purchased the coach, I just gave the dealer Bennett's address. Easy as pie. I only need one insurance policy instead of two.


First post: We're getting ready to buy and hit the road full time and it seems timing is an issue. I imagine we'll use a mail forwarding service, so that would be our home state. But if we buy the bus before we have that service and haven't closed on the house, then do we pay tax and licence fees in our current state or is there a grace period? Maybe I need some local legal advice?

Really enjoy this forum, by the way. I'm sure we'll have many questions and someday be able to provide some answers!

[garyde]

Try FMCA for mail forwarding. Sounds like you would be the prime example of a person who should have a Montana LLC. Gary

[dale farley]

I had a Montana law firm create an LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) for me in November. It cost me about $1000 for the firm's fee and $225 for a lifetime tag for the coach. I have to pay $125 a year for the firm to maintain my LLC and provide me with a permanent Montana address.

If I had registered the bus in Florida, the initial cost would have been over $12,000 plus $150 -$200 a year thereafter for a tag. I realize they may outlaw this sometime, but so far it is legal. If I have to, I will buy a lot in Alabama and park it over there. I guess I should have never moved from Tennessee, and I could have enjoyed the low annual fee like Jon.

I'm sure I could have established the Montana LLC myself, and saved some money, but I was in a hurry, and I didn't know all the hoops to jump through. I went a little slower when establishing an LLC in Florida a couple months ago, and I got a law firm to do it for lesss than $200. I created the LLC in florida to actually limit my liability on my farm since I board horses and have many people in and out of the farm. Dale

[Ray Davis]

So, I guess I have to question the legality aspect of it. Perhaps laws are different in TN, than here.

From what I'm told about CA law, if I reside in CA, then I have 30 days to register any of my vehicles in CA. When I purchased my bus in Seattle and then registered down here, it cost me somewhere near $14k to register it.

Now, certainly I guess I could setup a Montana LLC, but it seems to me that if I am ever caught, this could be a bad deal? Perhaps I'm just a worry-wort, but I envision being pulled over for whatever reason, and then having to try to explain my CA drivers license, and Montana plates? Am I just being concerned about nothing?

[dale farley]

Ray,

I don't think you are being concerned about "nothing". I am hoping if I ever get stopped, that I can convince the trooper that because I have a residence in Florida and NC, and a third address in Montana, and that I go to and through all 3 states periodically, I am legal. I do have a vacation cottage in NC, and I have been through Montana 4 times in the last 2 years, so I don't know if I can convince them enough to stay out of trouble or not.

One of the things that I have read is that your are much less apt to get in trouble if you keep the bus out of sight most of the time. Sitting in your driveway or on the side of the street is not a good idea. I live off the road several hundred feet and keep the bus in a shed, so I am hoping to minimize my exposure. I am also aware that there could be complications, but I have done mine according to Florida law which states that I must have it outside of the state for the first 6 months. It will stay in Alabama until I pick it up to go to POG III. My 6 months will be up when I return from POG.

I have gone by the law in establishing the LLC, but at the same time, I do know there may be other implications. I don't think they will ever be able to get me for breaking the law. Neither do I want to flaunt my bus with an out of state tag, while I am in Florda. Also, I am retired, so I have no Florida job and have no children enrolled in school. I don't encourage or discourage anyone from doing this because they could outlaw this everywhere at any time. It is currently worth the trouble for me.

[jelmore]

If I don't own any real estate and use a mail forwarding service, does that mail forwarding service become my state of residence? If so, I wouldn't need a separate corporation to own the bus, would I? I suppose I could move my sub-s corporation to another state and then it could own the bus. I guess I should check with my accountant.

[MangoMike]

I've used Bennett Law Office in Missoula, MT. They are extremely effecient and will have the entire LLC, plates and title back to you in a week, hassle free. They will also email you their legal interpretation of the law as it pertains to your state of residence. I will note that one of the first queations out of their mouth is do you reside in Florida as their are some "issues" with that state and Montana tags. But you should let them explain the situation.

Bennett Law Office
135 W. Main St.
Missoula, MT 59802
866.543.5803

I dealt with attorney Alain Burrese.


Mike

[Denny]

Ray,

I live in Ohio and Ohio law states that if you reside in Ohio, owned vehicles must be titled in Ohio. Prior to establishing a Montana LLC through Bennett Law Office, I checked with my attorney and she said that it is legal. The loop hole is that I personally do not own the vehicle but the LLC does. I own 100%of the LLC but do not directly own the bus. My toad car is titled in Ohio and my driver license is Ohio.

Several months I was stopped by a beautiful, young, star-struck, Ohio State Highway PatrolWOMAN and the first words out of her mouth were "who's on the bus?" She had a great look of disappointment when I told her my wife and I. She then started asking how many people were on the bus. Again, disappointment when I told he two, my wife and I.

She did the normal things a cop does and checked my license and registration and asked why I had Montana plates on the bus living in Ohio. I told her that I own a corporation in Montana and that the bus is titled in the name of the Montana corporation. I showed her insurance papers with the Montana corporation name confirming everything and she was satisfied.

Since she had to have Probable Cause to stop me and "Who's on the bus?" does not qualify, she said I did not signal a lane change and don't do it again. If there was a legal problem with the Montana LLC and a non Montana drivers license, I would not have been told "Don't do it again and have a nice day."

I have had the LLC for several years and have purchased a Foretravel and a Prevost with it saving thousands of dollars in sales tax. But before anyone does a LLC, check with your attorney because each state is different.

[dale farley]

Bennett Law Office is also the one I used in Montana. Everything I read says they are the best to use.

[jelmore]

Wow. Bennett Law Office has it figured out. I talked to Dan Bennett, he sent me an overview of how it all works. It's all definitely stuff I don't need or want to know. Certainly worth their fee. Thanks for the advice.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jim

Go back to old posts and check ones by BEN on this issue. He fulltimes and I believe he has a real informative post on it. I believe after his Montana regesrtation, I think I remember that he uses a Texas address for some legal reason. The law there is most advantagious for this senerio and is was the least hassle and cost.

Welcome to the group.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

jelmore;First post: We're getting ready to buy and hit the road full time and it seems timing is an issue. I imagine we'll use a mail forwarding service, so that would be our home state. But if we buy the bus before we have that service and haven't closed on the house, then do we pay tax and licence fees in our current state or is there a grace period? Maybe I need some local legal advice?

Really enjoy this forum, by the way. I'm sure we'll have many questions and someday be able to provide some answers!

Welcome JIM and LINDA, Well It didn't take you long to get into the pot. Hope everything goes well on your new acquisition and fulltiming. Sounds like you are especially busy right now, but soon as you can, fill in the user profile and tell us a little about yourself. Pictures are good, show and tell, we will all enjoy your experiences. What conversion did you buy? What part of the country are you in NOW? :p :) JIM

[lewpopp]

I also use the Bennet Law firm and they ask you some key questions over the phone and will send you a complete explanation of everything.

I was in an accident a year or so ago with my car and the police officer wondered why I had it registered in Montana with a NY drivers license. I told him my LLC owned the car and that's all I said and it was accepted, I was in Florida when this happened.

My coach is permanently registered and I do not have to spend a nickle to register each year.

Registering a car is pricey every year. My Saturn Vue coat about $366 each year. It depends how old your car is.

When the coach is 11 years old it qualifies for the permanent reg.

lew

[Coloradobus]

We had similar thing crossing the border back into the US. The border agent asked all the usual questions, guns, booze etc. Then asked why our drivers license didn't match the coach registration. I explained, the coach was a company vehicle. That said, she was satisfied and we were on our way.

[Journeyone144]

Hi Lew,
Would you go into detail about this no yearly fee...who Qualifies and I wonder what Reg. Fees would be in Fl. if I find the 1990 or so Pre...??
Thanks Viv


It is a permanent registration and I now pay no yearly fees.