Chasis Batteries

[TG Transport]

Well I got to the storage facility last night and got ready to leave, turned the key and "click" nothing. I knew the batteries were getting weak over the past month. Luckily, there is a jump start switch on the Marathon dash so I was off and running from the house battery bank. So now that I'm in the market for four new starting batteries, who out there can give me a recommendation on brand, price, and source. There are Delkron's in there now. Age is unknown. Thanks for the help y'all.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Interstate seems to be a very good battery.


http://www.interstatebatteries.com/cs_eStore/content/product_info/marine.asp?id=RVs

They also have dealers almost everywhere to handle any situation that might come up down the road.

Gary S.

[rahangman]

Prevost Jacksonville deemed Interstate to be their choice to replace our Chassis Battery Bank with in 2008. No complaints since. Price was "Average"

[HarborBus]

I replaced mine in July, 09 with Delco 1150's. The Interstates that were in it only lasted 3 years(July, 06).

[Johnny]

I am using innerstate since 05/2008 no problems.

[sawdust_128]

Do a forum search. There is a battery program with discounts for POG members. I think AGM's from Lifeline.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Prevost at one time used Delco 1150's exclusively and I used them on our first bus exclusively. I changed them every 5 years regardless of condition. They always performed and required no service.

Our current coach was provided with new Interstate when we bought it and I just pulled them out in 2009 because they hit five years. I never had problems. I went back to Delco 1150. I think I have about $450 in the set of four and that includes all taxes.

[truk4u]

Do not use AGM's for the chassis!

[jack14r]

Tom,Lifeline has a special battery for cranking and a different one for the house,Newell has used the craking one for several years with great success.Tell us why not.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I can easily tell you why. Gel and AGM batteries cannot handle heat. On my first coach the house batteries were located in a pair of racks above the chassis batteries. At that time gel cell batteries were all the rage and Interstate was willing to sell me a set through their distributor and monitor my performance.

As a result I got to talk with not only the distributor, but the engineers and technicians at Johnson Controls who makes Interstate. The gell cell batteries kept failing and when we monitored the temps we found they were in excess of 130 often. As it turns out gel and AGM batteries do not have a liquid unlike the lead acid batteries, that circulates and helps disipate the heat. The AGM and gel batteries just get too hot and either vent or get internal bubbles that compromise their performance.

I have seen some coaches with AGM for the chassis batteries, but I think it is more luck than anything else that keeps them working acceptably. If they are positioned where they get good air flow and are not directly exposed to engine heat they may work, but with the maintenance free Delco and Interstate batteries what is the advantage? It certainly isn't price.

[jack14r]

Jon,The heat makes sense,and you are right that cost is a disadvantage.I have used AGM batteries in race cars for some time but we do replace them every 2-3 years.I did have a problem with a gel that was a house battery that was only 1 year old and I thought that it might be heat related and your information makes me believe that it was.I replaced all 6 with Lifeline Agm batteries and they are working out fine.Do you think that the AGM's are less sensitive to heat than the gels?

[truk4u]

Jack,

As Jon pointed out, heat seems to be the killer for AGM's. Other articles I've read claim that AGM's are also not tolerant to the constant higher voltage of some alternators. In a commercial operation, the wet cell start batteries are good for thousands of cycles and the AGM's have a lower cycle number.

I just did my chassis batteries in February and the cost of wet cell sealed vs AGM was probably 50% and my concern has always been heat in the engine compartment.

Now if I had the King's money, I would get the gold plated super sponge titanium NASA approved "Sparky!":p

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jack,

I do not have information about the relative heat sensitivity of gell and AGM batteries. But I do know neither can handle heat. If they get too hot, but do not vent they form gas bubbles internally, exposing the plates and reducing their effectiveness. If they get too hot they will vent, at which point they have failed. I wish I knew the relative temperatures when these gassing and venting events occur.

As to voltage from what I have read the old lead acid batteries are quite tolerant of voltages that would damage a gell or AGM. It is my understanding from what I have read that a gell battery is less tolerant of higher voltage, and if a gell is exposed to high temps plus high voltage its life is almost nothing.

After my experience with the Interstate gel cell batteries I determined that their charging attributes do not sufficiently offset their weaknesses and although I am only on my second set of AGM batteries I got 5+ years of very good service from them, longer than any other house battery except my Delco Freedom 27's that I used for house batteries in my first coach. They were lead acid batteries, but their location in an area above the chassis batteries was well vented so I never had reservations about their use.

BTW, in defense of Interstate the batteries were not widely available gel cells and my usage of them was monitored by the distributor who spent many evenings in my barn monitoring them. Whenever any failed they were replaced at no charge, and after several years of usage, which included failures they were pulled and replaced with conventional lead acid.

[TG Transport]

Thanks for all the advice. I just bought 4 NAPA Maintenance Free Group 31 batteries for $92/ea. Switching them out was a less than pleasant experience but something anyone can do if you spend the time labeling the leads and wire tying all the bundles for each post. She started like a champ afterward.

I mis-spoke when I initially said my former batteries were Delco. They were actually Exide PX 31's and dated June 2004 so they definitely had a long career.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

We called Lifeline 2-3 months ago for batterries and identified us as POG members and was told that there was NO DISCOUNTS to us. Honestly this happened. We even repeated to them about Lifeline as one of our sponsors and still was told, NO DISCOUNT. We were quoted $500something for the AGM's each.

[Jim Skiff]

Lifeline is no longer a sponsor but was until the end of April and from a business stand point, "No Discount" ???? when you have a customer ready to make a purchase?
Not a good business move by Lifeline.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

We agree strongly with you, Jim! We were going to buy 3-4 batterries from them at least. If there had been a discount, possibly would have bought a complete set for the house. We just moved on and told them, "Ok, thank you very much...Goodby".

[hhoppe]

J Skiff: We are doo for new house batteries. Have you lined up another sponsor source for AGM's? Where is everone going in lieu of Lifeline for their AGM's
Thanks

[gmcbuffalo]

Jim, what was Lifelines reason for dropping us?
GregM

[BenC]

We spoke to Lifeline regarding the POG discount pricing they offered last year and were informed that it was supposed to be a temporary promotional price, which at the time was lower than any dealer could even get the batteries for. It was not meant to be a slap in the face to POG that it ended, but a goodwill promotion that simply ran out. Some dealers charge as much as $700-900 per 8D Lifeline (Lazy Days, for instance).

As far as the heat situation, the answer is temperature compensation. All Vantare, Marathon, Parliament, and Amadas (amoung others) that installed Trace's white inverter (either the RV-series or the SW-series) should have that feature. All had yellow telephone-style connections that went to the house batteries to sense and compensate charging voltage for temperature. In these coaches, battery life for a Lifeline AGM is generally 4 to 6 years, or about twelve hundred charge and discharge cycles. No other AGM battery on the market can say that. Lifeline is pattented and one of a kind (at least until the patent runs out). I am not trying to sound like a Lifeline representative defending them, but in the proper environment, they are BY FAR the best battery, especially for high power inverters like the SW4024.
I will say that a Heart inverter, lacking temperature compensation, can distroy them, and every other non-liquid battery on the market. The right battery for the right application is important. Liquid lead-acid batteries also have a very important DOT ramification to where they can be installed. They have to be in a vented compartment with no spark-producing equipment. Because they can and do gas, producing hydrogen, they are treated by DOT as an explosion hazard. Please bear that in mind in chosing replacement batteries for your coach. For engine-starting, deep cycle batteries (which have fewer and thicker plates) are also not the best choice, especially in cold weather starting applications.

Hear is the rule of thumb about batteries: If you see a CCA rating on them and no AMP-HOUR rating, they are designed with more but thinner plates to facilitate short-term high current engine starting, but because the plates are thinner, they tend to break easily under deep discharge situations. They are engine starting batteries only.
If you see am AMP-HOUR rating, with our without a CCA rating, then the battery was constructed with the fewer and thicker plates, with not as much surface area for the high-current starting applications, but great for deep discharges, making them ideal for house batteries.

Also note that most battery manufacturers, at least if they know the situation, will not warrant the batteries that were designed for starting if installed in a house battery situation.
Hope the info helps. Thanks.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

What started this thread was a question regarding chassis batteries. That in turn prompted a discussion relative to heat because there is no heat compensation on the alternator or any way to control ambient temps.

I would be very interested in having someone whose AGM or Gel Cell batteries are located in an enclosed compartment rig up some way to measure and record temperatures, especially in the summer in the southwest. When I was involved with Interstate and their new Gel Cell batteries the temps in the engine area where my battery racks were exceeded 130 degrees F on a 60 degree day. This despite the fact the door was slotted, the floor was open and the bus movement caused a lot of air flow.

Despite temperature compensation I would expect battery compartments not vented to the atmosphere such as those enclosed for aesthetic purposes or hidden from view on warm days are also getting warm. What I don't know is the definition of warm. I do know 130 was unacceptable.

[truk4u]

Ben,

I obtained the Lifeline account for POG and can assure you there was never any mention of a promotional price. The bottom line, they just dumped POG to save the advertising money thinking we would all just continue to buy at whatever the going price just happened to be.

[phorner]

Maybe one of those wireless temperature transmitters could be stashed somewhere in an enclosed area to monitor the temperatures. I have one in my inverter bay and the batteries seem to last about a year or so.

Mine is an Oregon Scientific indoor/outdoor thermometer that will accept up to 3 remote temperature transmitters, but I'm sure there must be others as well.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Interesting Paul......When I got our coach it had a lead/acid battery in the electrical bay for generator start. I did not want acid fumes vented where the PLCs and all the circuit breakers were so I switched it out to an Optima which I believe is an AGM.

At 5 years of age I replaced it with another one, and I still use the old one as the battery for my trackhoe.

I don't know what temps are present in that compartment, but whatever they are the battery life was not compromised. The battery however is not contained in a case, but sits open. I removed the case when I removed the lead/acid battery.

[Mark3101]

Ben,

I obtained the Lifeline account for POG and can assure you there was never any mention of a promotional price. The bottom line, they just dumped POG to save the advertising money thinking we would all just continue to buy at whatever the going price just happened to be.

FWIW, I got all 6 of my 8-D's replaced at Millennium last month for $629.00 each.

[jack14r]

I bought 6-8D's last June on the POG deal from Lifeline and they were $434.16 each.Does anyone know what dealer cost is today?

[jack14r]

I put a remote thermometer in the chassis battery area yesterday and drove home about 2.5 hours yesterday,the outside temperature was 75-80 and the highest recorded on the remote was 115 degrees.I would think that if the ambient was 20 degrees higher the battery area would also be 20 degrees higher,so 130 degrees would not be unusual.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jack,

When we were doing the testing on mine they were early designs. AGM was not even on the market. From what I have read the least affected by higher ambient temps was lead acid, followed by gel and then AGM. No battery is completely tolerant of heat, just that some are less affected.

Before inverters and chargers with temperature compensation batteries could be ruined by thermal runaway, in which as the battery got hotter, it absorbed more charging current, which in turn made it hotter, which caused it to absorb more charging current.

I have no knowledge of this, but if I were to guess the batteries are more tolerant of heat because of the temperature compensation in the inverters, BUT....there is no compensation for higher temps when runninng down the highway and charging via the alternator. I think the reason for the higher than ambient temps you saw may be in part due to heat radiating off the road. A highway sitting in the sun on a warm day can radiate some high temperatures.

[Woody]

What is the proper voltage indication while underway?

I noted today 26.4V

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I presume that is the chassis voltage and I believe 27.7 or thereabouts is the set point for the voltage regulator.

That voltage will vary depending on loads (such as OTR)

The small analog gauge I have is reasonably accurate, but if in question I always check the voltages at the battery terminals with a digital multi-tester just to get a value not influenced by potentially bad connections or long wire runs.

[Sid Tuls]

My reads 27.5-28 at the gauge on my screen,