I've Been Pricing Batteries

[Journeyone144]

I've been given House Battery Prices anywhere from
171.29 each with old battery from Van Winkle Napa on Rt.88 Pt. Pleasant, NJ...and
418.32 wuth no credit for old battery...from Lee Battery Manasquan, NJ...
Napa says their battery's don't say AGM on them anywhere but they are Group 4D's...and they also say they are giving me the same battery's I showed them the pictures I took of my batteries are..
Lee says their battery's do say AGM and they are also Group 4D's...

Jon and anyone with an opinion...kindly express it for me...

These are the only two places in my area that sell bus, truck, and marine batteries...

This such a drastic difference in price...I'm shocked...What say you, Please...

Hugs Always Viv aka Journey One' Cruisesr...
Prevost 1988 Le Mirage XL

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Viv,

I assume you are considering replacing house batteries. While it may seem as simple as driving to a battery store and replacing your batteries I have found there is more to it than that.

You mentioned you thought your inverter wasn't working right. Since that is your battery charger when the bus is on shore power or generator power step one is to verify it is functioning as it should. The quickest way to ruin a set of expensive batteries is to let them go dead so you need to insure the inverter is working and the bus alternator is working. They may be doing just fine, but are you willing to risk the price of a set of batteries and maybe roadside service?

The next thing you have to decide is what kind of batteries you want. There are lead/acid batteries that must be maintained regularly by checking the level of the fluid and adding distilled water if required. To my way of thinking unless your house batteries are right where you can see and service them lead acid might not be the best choice. The next option is gel. These do not require service and have some advantages. They are expensive. The last option is an AGM battery, which also does not require maintenance and has some advantages. They are also expensive.

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/01.Type/index.html
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Using%20a%20deep%20cycle%20battery %20as%20a%20starting%20battery
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/rvbatteries.php

The above sites have excellent information and you really need to study the options available to you. I use AGM others use Gel, and others still use lead / acid.

Once you decide on the type of battery you want and have verified your charging systems are functioning, find someone who will install them. It is not as simple as pulling the old ones out and putting in the new ones. If you have a 12/24 house system the new ones must be installed exactly as the old ones were. If you have a straight 12V house system there is not much an installer can screw up, but the installer has to be sure to use good or new cable clamps, make sure all fittings including grounds are clean and tight, and that the inverter is set up for charging the specific battery type you have selected. IT IS CRITICAL THAT THE INVERTER CHARGER IS SET UP WITH THE RIGHT PROTOCOL FOR CHARGING THE BATTERIES YOU HAVE CHOSEN.

I would recommend AGM batteries and specifically Lifeline because they appear to provide the best service life. If you are looking for the cheapest batteries lead acid are the way to go, but remember you must check fluid levels and be very much alert to corrosion in the battery area and on terminals. For that reason I don't recommend that type.

Battery prices vary significantly. Make sure you are buying what you think you are buying and that all the batteries have exactly the same date code. That is important.

[Journeyone144]

I read it all Jon...copied the 3 URL's....Will go to each... I have never had a new car...or a new coach...or much of anything brand new...but I've learned by living and I have a taste for the best even tho' I have to make do with almost always second hand...That's fine with me...
The last Christmas my husband Leo was alive he wanted to buy me a new Dodge...We had a big argument...I wanted a used Caddy...He gave in...I was happy with my 93 Caddy...After he passed away and I really needed a newer car I went looking for a Lincoln...and got a 96 Lincoln Signature Series Town car that I'm still driving today...and very happy with it ...

Can I maybe find used batteries somewhere with 3 or 4 years of life left in them...????!!!!

Now don't get mad at me...just funnin' you... I know there are some things I have to buy new...Like Batteries and Lite Bulbs...and I'm finding wih the Bus Custom Made...Curio Cabinets...Done...but need improvement...

I do want the best because I know they will serve me best...never the cheapest...just the cheapest price of the best...but I bet it could be done if they could come from a wrecked Bus...smile

The Website here won't let me type...I just lost a whole big letter...it jumps when I click my mouse...so I have to use the arrows to get where I need to go...tough to do ...but at least my sense of humor is taking hold again ...and I want to drive my bus some more ....

I won't buy any Batteries until I know I'm getting the right ones...I would like to find the exact same ones I have but I think they're not being made anymore ...no one had them...so far...but they sure did serve the bus well...didn't they ...I'm sooo pleased at how it's performed...I absolutely love driving it...I've even found a way to get it up into my driveway with out dragging the bags...I lift up my tag axel and take a wide swing into the yard...It Works Fine...

The Power Cord has to go under the bus to reach the outlet on the house...so I tied a long heavy string to the end of the cord and pull it under the bus...leave that long length of string on the ground and when I come back with the bus I just have to pull the cord back under the bus to get it to the outlet...Works...as well as the pine cones I used in a CG one time when I had to back into a really tight site...I laid a row of pine cones down where I wanted my wheels to ride next to...and put a stick crossways at the point where I needed to stop the back wheel...so I didn't hit the fence behind the RV...lol...Where there's a will there's always a way...
I will find the right Batteries...
Hugs Always Viv...

[Journeyone144]

PS: Forgot to give you the Website to see the Batteries in My Bus...
Hugs Always Viv..
http://sports.webshots.com/album/573815861syDEFr?start=60

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You appear to have AGM batteries. I did note some corrosion which would suggest whoever does the replacement that they insure the cables where they enter the terminal are free of corrosion.

AGM batteries, such as sold by Lifeline have a discounted POG price. You have to contact Lifeline and advise them you are a POG member and would like the discount. They will ship them to you or refer you to a dealer. I'm not sure how it works.

If you go with AGM, even though you are replacing like batteries, refer to the owner's manual for the inverter and make sure the charging protocol is properly set up. It will increase your battery life.

[Journeyone144]

Sounds awfully good Jon,
I'll write Lifeline Monday...After I do get the batteries or make an arrangement to get them, Unless Lee Battteries get the installation...I'll have to start hunting for who can do it ...Maybe Lifeline will know of someone...I'll be sure to ask them...Lee Batt. who tested them had said they would also install... Napa said they couldn't...
There are several new cables for the batteries already right in the batt. bay...Don really tried to have everything he might have need for ready and waiting ....If he hadn't sold the Bus to me and was able to keep it I'm sure the batteries would have already been replaced...or surely be on his "to do next" list...

In my lifetime I've purchased countless cars, vans, and now with my Bus, 15 RV's...Never did anyone go to sooo much trouble to help me learn about my new purchase...or care anywhere near as much as Don...He was phenomenal...

Always Viv..

Many thanks...Always Viv..

[Journeyone144]

I will Call Lifeline Monday Jon,

There are several new batt. cables in a cache in the batt. bay...Don was prepared for everything...I keep finding out more and more of all he did...The bus was his baby...no doubt...and he did his best to help me try to keep it up...I only hope I can do half what he would have...with the help here I can make a good attempt...sure have learned a lot more than I knew last July 18th...

I'll post all that happens...and do my best to follow all suggestions...

Many Thanks again...Alwaus Viv...

[stevet903]

Viv, I'd bet that the Napa battery is a 4D SIZE battery, but is not an AGM battery, and probably not a deep cycle battery. Since this is a house application, you want a deep cycle type battery. Despite the NAPA battery being a good price, it's likely not what you are looking for. I think the price ranges for a typical lead acid 4D size starting battery are around $200, a 4D size gel battery $300-$400, and a 4D size AGM battery, $400 to $500.

I will second Jon's advice on your battery terminals and cables. They must be clean with no corrosion, or you will have no end of problems with your house systems. I looked through your pictures and have some comments/questions. Your battery cable terminals have open ends at the crimps - this will allow moisture and corrosion to travel into the crimp and cable - you will need to have each cable checked to ensure that the cable ends make a low-resistance connection. How do the house batteries charge? From the picture, the house system is 12V. From the engine picture, I don't see a 12V alternator, and I'd be willing to bet that the engine alternator is a 24V 50DN type. I see a switch on your panel for an inverter, a 12V charger, and a 24V charger. I'd assume that the 24V charger is for the start batteries. Is there a separate 12V charger for the house?
Your inverter looks like an older Heart EMS model, similar to the one I have. If it is like mine, it has a three stage charging system. It does not have adjustable charging parameters. If the parameters are similar to mine, it is not really appropriate for charging gel type batteries, only flooded or AGM type batteries. Can you get the information off of the label on the bottom right side of the inverter so we can be sure?
The wires going into the front of your inverters must be redone as soon as possible - they should have connectors crimped on them and they should be installed under the front cover of the inverter. Bare electrical wires can short and cause a fire!!

Steve

[Journeyone144]

Hi Jon, All, Good Morning...

I couldn't wait until Monday...just needed to rest a bit...back now...
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/rvflyer.php?id=5
Above is the URL for a Lifeline Battery I believe is closest to the House Batteries in my Bus at this time...Before I write to Lifeline about price...I would like to know if you agree my choice is correct....

I couldn't find the original start about this thread so not knowing what else to do I had to revert to General Chit Chat...

Hope you find it okay...I was just getting used to the old forum when it was changed...Par for any course I tread on...smile...
Always Viv...

[Journeyone144]

Holy Smokes I'm here on POG 3 years already.. Can't believe it's really been that long...
Hugs Always Viv...aka Journey One's Cruiser ...now...

[stevet903]

The GPL-4DA is the correct Lifeline battery - see this post for contact info

http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/showthread.php?3992-Lifeline-Contact

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Steve,

On coaches of the vintage of Viv's coach a single gear driven alternator was mounted on the front (actually the rear) of the engine over the bell housing. It supplied power to the house batteries via the equalizers. Generally there were two equalizers of 50 amp capacity at the time. Instead of a single 100 amp isolator that is common on coaches today. The house battery circuit was isolated from the alternator or chassis batteries via a large relay that had the circuit normally open, but would close upon power output from the alternator.

Some converters added more battery equalizers than those supplied by Prevost.

[Journeyone144]

Yes Steve I do have EMS...Heart Energy Management Systems...
Here is a Photo of the name...
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2191451660034860664EpqbiR
Why are you suggesting I should do the below asap...when the coach has been working fine...I'm afraid I'd be looking for troubles I don't even have yet ...Whew...

Replacing 5 yr. old House Batteries I understand but making changes worries me...Even the fellow who came here and could replace the batteries for 400 plus each but installing them included.........did things that worried me...switching a few switches on the inverter back and forth...He acted like he was familiar with it but he was real young...I guess the young do catch on faster when their parents are running a battery business only since before he was even born...It's his grandfather Jack who owns Lee Batteries on Rt. 70, in Manasquan, NJ...two miles from my house...Maybe I should let him put them in...with some good warranty...

I've written Lifeline and waiting for a reply...hopefully they deal with Lee...smile...I should be so lucky.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hugs Viv...
Stop scaring me Steve...I scare easily enough... smile....
The wires going into the front of your inverters must be redone as soon as possible - they should have connectors crimped on them and they should be installed under the front cover of the inverter. Bare electrical wires can short and cause a fire!!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Viv,

You have me confused. In your post above you talk about someone messing with switches on the inverter.

I understand you had the chassis batteries replaced. They have nothing to do with the inverter so I hope the guy wasn't monkeying around with the inverter when he replaced them. That would suggest the guy really was in over his head.

If the guy came to work on something else, such as your inverters, alarms go off because nobody should move a few switches back and forth unless they had a real good reason, had the operator's manual, and there was a problem related to the inverters. If there is an inverter problem the chances are real good moving a few switches back and forth is a waste of time and your money. At least tell us he actually put a voltmeter on the batteries prior to monkeying around.

You should be very scared. Especially if you plan on using people that have not worked on Prevost conversions. So far I am undewhelmed by those who have taken your money.

[Journeyone144]

Hi Jon,
The fellow who touched the Inverter was the same one from Lee Batteries who brought his meter here and tested my House Batteries when I told him My advisers from POG had told me this should be done before I would be able to make up my mind if I had to buy batteries for the House right now...One measured in the red on his meter but the rest all measured in the green...and it was then he said I should replace them all...not just the one ...same as you have said...Then I went to the pricing subject...and his price was way over 400...but included installation by him...He turned off several items on the inverter...the microwave, and others...since I'm not using them at home, he said..
I'm trying to remember all that happened but it's hard...I'm trying to remember correct replacement numbers for what I need...the dates being the same on all and all bring from the same manu. at the same time...soooo much...to remember...trying so hard not to make mistakes...

Now a whole new thing is happening...

I spoke to Jason at Lifeline...the sale they had last year for POG members at 380.00 each including shipping is off...batteries from them now cost way over 500. each...
He gave me a place called Takris on Rt. 34 by Allaire Airport...is where he suggested I go...1-888-483-5747...Michelle and Chris are there..Chris said to bring the coach to his place and he can equalize the House Batteries .......What say you to that...??? I haven't heard anything about that until him...
So this is where I am now...Deciding if I should take the coach there...?? Batteries from Chris are over 500 too...

I wish I could get thru' the summer as I am...if I put new batteries now I will probably have to spend most of the summer home...

Hugs Always Viv...

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Viv,

I am shooting from the lip here, having never seen your coach or put a meter or battery tester on it. Here is my opinion for what it is worth.

Since one battery tested bad, it is a given that your house batteries are nearing the end of their life. But if the other's remained good then my first suggestion is one that you should take very seriously. Disconnect the bad battery ASAP. That will leave you with less capacity, but you will be able to get some use out of the remaining batteries. Leaving a bad battery in the set impacts the remaining good batteries. When you are on shore power, the appliances are not running off your batteries. When you are driving the engine alternator is maintaining the charge in your batteries. The only time your batteries are being used is when you have shut off the engine and the generator is not running and you are not connected to shore power.

As to equalizing the batteries your inverter should be able to do that. Having said that however at this point in the life of your batteries I would not anticipate a measurable improvement in the batteries. Your inverter operating manual should tell how to equalize the batteries. If you do not have the instructions and the battery folks will not unfairly priced doing it, it may give enough new life to get you down to FL this winter. At that point you really should consider new batteries.

As to the cost, unfortunately that is the price of admission to Prevost Land. All owners, apart from routine maintenance like oil changes and lubrication we are all faced with buying new batteries every 5 or 6 years, new tires around the same time interval (regardless of tread depth) and we still have to recognize brake chambers, air bags, suspension valves, shocks, etc. all age out also and need regular replacement. The good news is your batteries may only last 5 or 6 years, but when you consider that is only $33 per month that isn't bad.

[truk4u]

Forget all this battery stuff.... This whole thing sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Viv - Take your bus to Clearwater and let Ben, Rick and the boys sort out your problems properly.

[Journeyone144]

I've been here and read everything...I think I better just take my bus for a ride...and see if I can camp in it for a couple of days...try sorting all this out and come up with a plan...I didn't plan on going to Fl. this winter after the misery there last winter and the two years before in my Dolphin...
I really need a break and my bus isn't saying I can't have it...at least not yet...so I'm leaning toward driving down to a S.Jersey CG...for a first nite in my Bus since I got back from Ga/Fl in Jan...Sure wish somebody from POG could join me...to talk busses...smile...
Hugs Always Viv...
88 Prevo Le Mirage XL

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Viv,

Before you do that get those batteries sorted out and disconnect the house batteries that test bad. It is the bad batteries that mess up the good ones, and a bad battery can make you think you have an inverter problem.

I haven't had an issue with AGM, but when I had gel batteries I had one pop open. It made enough of a noise to get my attention. You don't need surprises like that.

[Mark3101]

I haven't had an issue with AGM, but when I had gel batteries I had one pop open. It made enough of a noise to get my attention. You don't need surprises like that.

I just had all 6 of my 8-D Lifelines and both of my smaller Lifelines that are for starting the generator replaced at Millennium Coach last Wednesday. I had either 1 or 2 leakers, we were not able to determine for sure, but it appeared that 1 of the 8-D's and one of the Generator batteries may have been leaking. I didn't trust the 8-d's any longer because they seemed to drop voltage quickly, and I did have a couple of generator starting issues so I decided to start with a clean slate. I think that since our coach sat for so long at the dealer prior to our purchase, it was hard on the batteries. We replaced the 8-D's with Lifelines again, but the smaller AGM's for the generator starter had to come from elsewhere as they did not have the proper size in a Lifeline. I shouldn't have to worry about batteries for a long time now!

[jack14r]

All battery manufacturers recommend 50% discharge as the maximum discharge,most converters want to exceed this so that they do not disturb the elderly sleeping camping population.I would verify that your trace inverters are set to start the generator at 23.6 volts.If not you will replace the batteries prematurely again.

[Journeyone144]

Hi Mark & Kristi,
I wonder why those batteries needed replacement sooo soon on a 2 yr. old Coach...I wonder if maybe they went bad because of the engine not being started often enough or any use at all being put on them...Only two years old and needing replacement would surely do me in...Seems the dealer should have replaced them...before the sale...

Do you have a logical reason for this having happened to Mark, Jon...I would like to hear your input... Marks explanation sent red flags up for me...I know Don Y. didn't do much camping with mine but he did say he started it regularly...and I have every reason to believe him...

Quote "I think that since our coach sat for so long at the dealer prior to our purchase, it was hard on the batteries" Unquote.


Hugs Always Viv...
Journey One's Cruiser

[Mark3101]

Vivian: They likely went bad because the coach, while carrying a 2008 model year title, is a 2006 chassis completed in early 2007 and sat at a dealers lot until October os 2009. I am sure that it was not looked after as well as it should have, and in fact, was dead (house side) twice while we were looking at it / picking it up. That plus the leaking, made the decision easy to replace them.

I have a working knowledge of the systems on the coach, and have similar ones on our boat, so this is nothing out of the ordinary for me. From reading your posts, I would suggest getting a professional to look at you bus to check out the inverter(s) and the rest of the system. It will pay dividends for you as you will then know for sure what you need.

[Mark3101]

All battery manufacturers recommend 50% discharge as the maximum discharge,most converters want to exceed this so that they do not disturb the elderly sleeping camping population.I would verify that your trace inverters are set to start the generator at 23.6 volts.If not you will replace the batteries prematurely again.

The inverters are setup correctly and working as they should. That was not the case when we got the coach...it had not been setup completely and had been dead several times I am sure. I don't think I will have to do this again for a long time!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The worst thing that can be done to batteries is to allow them to become deeply discharged. You might just as well kiss them goodbye.

Mark is absolutely correct in that if they were not maintained in a fully charged condition their life was compromised.

There appears to be a mistaken impression that starting a coach and running it for a half hour or so is going to keep the batteries charged. Our batteries when charged should go through a three stage charging process, bulk, absorption, and float. To extend their life, initiate the charge process before they drop below a 50% discharge as Jack points out.

But no matter how well batteries are maintained they have a life span and 5 or 6 years is about what can be expected. Some have kept batteries longer than that, but as batteries age their performace falls off and a set that may have lasted all night long dry camping may not even make it halfway through the night.

Also it needs to be understood that the house batteries are typically always going to have charging current except when dry camping. The inverters, when on generator or shore power are chargers and do a good job of maintaining a battery. If power to the inverters is turned off when parked then it is incumbant on the owner to monitor battery voltage and turn on the inverters when voltage drops to 12.25, or 24.5 volts or thereabouts.

[Journeyone144]

I just found House Batteries for an unbelieveable price...what say you everyone...before I buy...
Here is where I found them...
http://www.factoriesonline.com/ProductInfo.aspx?id=5767609
Price: $1238.88 and I've been getting prices for between 4 and over 500. each ...
Hugs Viv..

[Jon Wehrenberg]

They may be fine. I would compare the spec to the Lifeline spec for the same size batteries and to the batteries now in the coach. Where are they made and how will warranty service be handled? What is the shipping cost and the cost of others with shipping? Any sales taxes due?

As a proponent of Chinese tires I have no objection to trying off-name brands, but the product has to at least be the equivalent or better.

[Journeyone144]

Okay Jon,
I'll follow thru' and try to find out all...I'll call them in the A.M.
Hugs Viv...