Stuck with Progressive

[Yankee802]

Because of the wonderfull reviews and recommendations of the POG members about National Interstate and Explorer RV, I thought I'd go ahead and switch from Progressive. Just talked with Jill at Explorer RV, and she said due to my coach's age (25) I'm stuck with Progressive.

So, anyone have any ideas? Is there anyone else with an older coach and a better insurance company, one they have good claim experience with?

Of course I hope and pray that I NEVER have to file any sort of claim, but it would be reassuring to know if I did, it wouldn't be a problem.

Geoff

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Those of us who do not trade or who own older coaches are all going to be confronted with this situation. I think as a group we are large enough to address this with Explorer and National Interstate.

But let's be realistic. If I was National Interstate the reason I set some arbitrary age as the cutoff is due to the increased exposure. On the new end of the scale their exposure is related to the value of the coach being insured, and to an extent the premiums can reflect that without the owner having big issues. But if you look at the old coach end of the scale the owners are not going to be happy if the insurance company raises the rates to reflect the increasing risk that they may have if the coach is poorly maintained. It probably costs the same to fix an old coach as it does a new one.

There is a certain reality regarding older coaches. They are cheap to buy, but the maintenance is as expensive or maybe more expensive than for a new coach, so I suspect often that maintenance does not get done. Going even further, a lot of our coaches may not even get inspected to verify they are safe and properly maintained. An insurance company will not put itself in the position of accepting some old coaches, while excluding others unless there is a way for them to make the exclusion black and white. Personally I have not been all that impressed with some of the maintenance on some coaches.

I would propose that everyone with a coach that is beyond the age limit for National Interstate to draft a letter to them and Explorer and propose to investigate their concerns about older coaches with the stated goal to set up a program by which their concerns would be addressed.

There is a parallel to this in aviation, not related to the plane but the pilot. Insurance companies want to verify the pilots are sound and they require recurrent training. The insurance company may only ask for commercial driver licenses and commercial inspections of the coach.

[Jim Skiff]

Jon,

I will be forwarding this to Explorer. It is my belief that they should be able to support our entire group with reasonable rates.

Jim

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I just sent an email. Great minds think alike.

[Orren Zook]

I can tell you from previous experience that Explorer's cut off is 20 years. After that age, I was never able to get anyone but Progressive to quote coverage and at more than double the premium cost.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I would think that as a potential for opening a discussion with Explorer and National Interstate we need to get a listing of all POG members who have coaches from 1991 and older. It would also help if those owners could identify who they are currently insured by, and what the premiums are.

The only way to know if we do get into talks with the insurance people if they are heading in the right direction is if we know where we are.

To use an aviation analogy, the insurance companies that require recurrent pilot training can justify their demands with lower premiums. However, if the insurance companies that have no requirements charge $1000 more in premiums, but recurrent training costs $2000 then the cost benefit analysis must be done. It might be National Interstate may reconsider with some conditions such as coach inspection that costs far in excess of what the difference is between them and Progressive.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Classic, collector and antique vehicles have had a similar problem and we may be entering that realm with the Prevost of the earlier vintage.
There are specialty Insurers that may be interested in us as a group.
Older buses will end up costing more to repair as the availability of parts becomes difficult to acquire. This is not the case yet, but it surely will come into the picture.

The conversation on this topic thus far is pointing to faulty or the lack there of, of proper maintenance as an issue as to why the Ins is not available for older buses. Is there any evidence to substantiate this? Those of us with a bus that is say 10 years old and keep it up to snuff will not change when the bus becomes 20 years old, if they are still the owner.
Conversely if an owner does not keep his bus up and continually drives a bus within the age limits for insurability, that does not mean he will be a better or safer ins. risk. I think the age of the vehicle has very little to do with the insurance risk and is just some arbitrary number, similar to the age requirement that some campgrounds have, the one year expiration of prescription drugs and the "good until date on food stuffs".
I would like to see the possibility of being insured with the same company I have been with and have had a good history with, when my bus was within their age requirement, when my bus exceeds their age requirement for insurability.
I feel a bad driver can just as well drive a brand new bus and be a far worse insurance risk than a good driver of a bus with the basic up keep maintenance found on most that are in regular use. This is just my opinion.

This is a good topic for any/every POG member. You all have ideas and opinions, lets hear them. There have been comments in the past that the posts are too much about maintenance and technical topics, well now is your chance. Join in, if we all revert to LURKER STATUS there will be no reason to belong. It is every members responsibility to supply CONTENT, even if all it is, is "that's nice" or "way to go"!:cool:


JIM:)

[Woody]

For what it's worth we are insured with Victoria through Gilbert RV Insurance Co at a very reasonable rate. They did require an appraisal for an agreed value on our 1990 Aongola.

[phorner]

Is there any possibility that we could get enough members interested to shop for insurance as a sort of co-op? Kind of like a group insurance plan. Perhaps as a group we could get coaches covered regardless of age due to the number of members.

[ajducote]

This subject may become very important to many of us in future years. The one thing I would like to ask is, would a "safety inspection" by a state agency or some recognized inspection system suffice to show that the bus has been maintained to some degree? Thinks like air brake check, brake drum and pad thickness, tire tread depth, etc. I know commercial trucks get spot inspctions at some weigh stations. There must be some mechnism to could produce a report that the insurance companies would accept.
It would not matter if house systems were not up to "Kevin" standards, as long as "safety" related items were up to snuff.

[Coloradobus]

We have had Progressive for 8 yeasr. We when bought our current coach, and were going to re-up with Progressive thru our Insurance broker, "Miller Insurance of Lake Oswego Oregon, we were shocked what Progressive wanted to charge to insure the older coach, 1992. Our past coach, the 2000 H cost us 3100.00 annual premium with $2500 deduct for coll, and comp., 1/2 mill for liability, uninsured, underinsured. We were told that $2,500 of the total was for the ":Agreed Value" of 500,000.
For the Beaver Bus, same coverage except "Agreed Value" was now $139,000, Progressive wanted $2100, stating $1600 of the charge was for the "Agreed Value" Whew!!! We went shopping, and Miller RV Insurance provided us with National Interstate, same coverage as before but with a deduct change in collision/comp from $2500 on the "H"3-45 to $1000 deduct for the same on XL 40. Our Beaver Bus premium is in realm of $1100-1200 annually.
Since we got in before "Zorro" has "Aged Out'. and we are currently covered with National Interstate, and we will be grandfathered as the coach ages.


JIM C's idea of possible useage of Classic Car type insurance is interesting, but we have policies with several and their restrictions are many. Here are a few examples of resrtictions thru Grundy and Safeco.

1.) No "errand" trips with vehicle.
2.) Limited number of miles per year.
3.) Used only for Club events, parades
4.) NO overnight trips, unless provided with " verifiable secured" parking.
(However, these restictions may very with the Insurance Carrier. Safeco is less restrictive than Grundy, and Grundy is less restrictive than Haggerty)

When we tow the 1967 Vintage Airstream with the 1969 Cadillac to a cross country Airstream Rally, we get "riders" to supplement the original Classic Car policies, thru our mainstream car insurers.

Unless a Grundy-type insurer were to change the restricitons, it would be tough to drive a Prevost to Palm Springs and "camp" in it.
We also learned this time around how the Insurer rates the use of the RV. We are listed as "useage" 2-5 months a year. If we were "Fulltimers, over 5 months, with an owned "stick" home, or Fulltime over 5 monthsr, with NO "stick home" our rates would be much, much higher.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

The issue of lack of maintenance was brought up by me as supposition as to why an insurance company may want to shy away from insuring 20 year old vehicles.

That may not be the case, but regardless of what prompts their position on this issue we need to talk to them as a group. A single person trying to insure a coach will likely not get anywhere. I suspect, but do not know that the underwriters look at risk and when the topic of 20 year old buses comes up I would be surprised if the mental image is not that of a well worn bus nearing the end of its life with 2,000,000 miles and currently owned by a church group or marching band or being home converted by an individual.

The insurance company may not realize the typical bus conversion likely has 200,000 miles, good care, covered storage, and is going to be carefully driven by a mature owner.

[Woody]

I'm sorry guys but there is such a thing as internet shopping. The carrier we had for our 4 Vogues wouldn't touch a 20 year old Prevost so we went hunting.
As I said before we found good coverage at a good price through a company that does not advertise a lot. They check out well and the agent in Orlando is great. They required a lot - I submitted 20 images showing every aspect of the coach, had an appraisal done and came to a good agreement.

I would be pleased to join any group arrangement and with all the info I have gleamed from this forum have no doubt that this coach will pass any inspection requirement but the group must come up with a competitive quote.

In the aviation business I have always found that association group policies seem to always be higher than individual policies but that all depends on experience and the aircraft. I can't see how we could ever come up with acceptable driver and coach condition standards that would fit all.

I hope I am not being too negative but this is from many decades of fighting these guys.

[phorner]

Jim,

The issue of lack of maintenance was brought up by me as supposition as to why an insurance company may want to shy away from insuring 20 year old vehicles.

That may not be the case, but regardless of what prompts their position on this issue we need to talk to them as a group. A single person trying to insure a coach will likely not get anywhere. I suspect, but do not know that the underwriters look at risk and when the topic of 20 year old buses comes up I would be surprised if the mental image is not that of a well worn bus nearing the end of its life with 2,000,000 miles and currently owned by a church group or marching band or being home converted by an individual.

The insurance company may not realize the typical bus conversion likely has 200,000 miles, good care, covered storage, and is going to be carefully driven by a mature owner.


Jon, have you met some of our members ???:D

[Darrell and Linda]

Our coach is insured through Allstate. We have a $168,000.00 full replacement value tag, (any higher valve, we would need an appraisal), full glass coverage with $100.00 deductible, includes all windows, $500.00 deductible on collision, $2,000,000.00 public / third party liability. Total annual premium is $426.00........ I presented and forced an ammenity list and a ton of pictures for their file. This is not government insured.

This is RV insurance. I believe the reduce premium is because the coach is in storage for a minimum of four months a year. Having said that, If we used the coach full-time, and they doubled or even trippled the annual premium, it would be very reasonable.

Isn't Allstate an american insurance based company?

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

I was just told this past week that Gilbert Ins.out
of Orlando,Fl will no longer insure with Agreed Value.
There carrier is American Securities. We are grandfathered
in but if we make any change anything with policy it will
be cancelled. No new policies will be written with Agreed Values.
For the new 2001 royale we just got,I have found a company to insure
with agreed value but will have to give it to you when we get
home in 2 days. Actually the 2001, with agreed value, premiums
are cheaper with exact same coverage amounts than the 1997 Royale with Gilbert.
I hope I have all this right. Will see policies in 2 days when we get home.
Sandy

[rahangman]

Darrell and Linda...can you send me a PM with your insurers contact?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Having had a fire caused by mechanical work done by "experts" I can only say that with National the repairs were done exactly how I wanted them done.

I cannot express how important it was to be able to have the bus towed to Prevost Jacksonville, and restored to its original condition by the company that made it. Other insurance companies may treat a claim exactly the same way, but I doubt if a company that wants 3 estimates for a fender bender on a car is ever going to allow you (the policy holder) to determine how or where your coach will be repaired.

The issue gets more involved if the interior is affected because the chassis and the conversion may need to be repaired and I would not want to even think about how a proper repair would be made if the coach were to be taken to anyone other than Prevost or Liberty (in my case).

I am prepared to pay a higher premium to have the comfort of knowing if anything bad happens my coach will be fixed and returned to me with no issues brought about from improper repairs.

[Darrell and Linda]

Rahangman

Rodger, make room for my PM, thanks

[Yankee802]

This is what we currently have with Progressive, in case it helps.

We live in it fulltime, and it will be (we are moving to my wife’s new duty station (Navy)) in Panama City, Florida
$100,000.00 is the agreed (and purchase price) value I currently have with Progressive for another 3 years.
I am 43, My wife is 30.
Full Timers Personal Liability: $100k ea person/$300k ea accident
Medical Payments: $5k ea person/$50k ea accident
Loss Assessment/Storage $5k
Deductible $2.5k
Premium is $1446 for 12 months.

I have initiated a yearly maintenace program, have had my fisrt one (and baseline) and the 2nd annual one is scheduled for this month at Prevost in Jacksonville. I also take my coach for a 60 mile(ish) run each month to keep things moving, rather than just sitting there for months.

Also am having problem with my icemaker, so if you think you can help, please see that thread. :)

[rahangman]

Rahangman

Rodger, make room for my PM, thanks

Sorry, forgot to look first :o

[Jim Skiff]

I just spoke with Tod Carney at Explorer. Tod has been working with National Interstate on a solution. With input from POG members on this board and in private emails I think this group effort will create a positive outcome.
We will make an announcement when Tod has worked the details out with National Interstate.

[phorner]

Thanks, Jim, for all your eforts on our behalf.

[Yankee802]

Here here!! Yes guys, thank you all for your efforts.

[Yankee802]

Update:

Tod called today with great news, got coverage!! YES!! So I have ordered my appraisal from Automotive Appraisal Services Group ($238) to get everything up to snuff. I'll be calling Tod tomorow to get everything else going.

Just wanted to thank everyone involved, and let everyone know that the power of the POG should never go underestimated. :) Now older coaches can get coverage too!

[HarborBus]

Geoff, That's great news, I have to admit it makes me feel good to belong to such a great group to have facilitated this turnaround for you and anyone else that has an older bus. This will likely effect a great many of us in years to come. Congratulations I happy for you.:D

[Journeyone144]

I sure hope some of this good luck rubs off on me...With a clean license.... I paid Progressive 1,400.00 for one year of full coverage...Being it was my first year of owning my own bus I knew I should protect myself and others at any cost...but I have never paid such a premium in my life before...I was shocked... but then I am only one year younger than my Bus...and don't tell me that didn't have anything to do with the cost...I can't believe it if you do...but...so far I have about 4,000 safe miles behind me in it...Prayerfully more coming...If I wasn't confident I couldn't drive at all but I am never cocky...

Hugs Always Viv... aka Journey One's Cruiser
1988 Prevost Le Mirage XL

[phorner]

That's great news !!

Thanks again Jim, and the folks at Explorer and National Interstate that made this happen.

I currently have a National Interstate policy and this saga plays a big part in keeping me as a loyal customer.

[Yankee802]

Viv, that is what I paid to Progressive, we must have had the same policy. Please call Tod and see what he can do for you now Viv.

Anyway, my new premium is lower, but when I add (and follow on question to all) my umbrella coverage, it'll be just over $1600 a year, but that is with a LOT more coverage, and of course the added piece of mind from National Interstate.

And now the question, who has an umbrella policy on their coach? I won't admit this anywhere else, but I'm covered to 1 mil. Am I over insured?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I think we discussed umbrella coverage on another thread. But to re-iterate I have umbrella coverage, but as a separate policy. It requires certain minimum coverages on my vehicles and house, and then it will kick in.

[dale farley]

Geoff,

As Jon said, most of us have separate policies for the umbrella policy. A policy of $1Mil - $2 Mil is common. I just reduced mine to $1mil and changed my policy to RLI Insurance Co. with an annual premium of $397. That premium is based on the number of vehicles and properties they have to cover. Mine covers the bus, motorcycle, car, truck, SUV, conversion van and 3 small houses. (You could easily place all 3 of my houses inside the Keller or Foster Compound.) But at the same time, I am highly Blessed and have nothing to complain about.