Request for new article on RIVETS

[ajducote]

I have read a whole bunch of old post on removing and replacing rivets. But I am still not sure what I need and the right way to remove and replace rivets. I thnk I have a few rivets up high on the side panels that are a little loose and may be creating a very small water leak.

Could someone write an article or tutorial message on this subject?

Questions I have:
1. Are all rivets on the bus the same size / material? 1/4" or 3/8", SS or aluminum
2. Are the rivets on the SS lower panels different the the rivets on the upper aluminum panels?
3. Do you use any sealer when you install the new rivets?
4. What is the best tool install the rivets? Cost within reason that is.
5. Good source for the proper rivets and tools.
6. Tricks that make the job easier.
7. And any number of things that I don't even know enough about the subject to ask!

Maybe this could be a seminar at POG 9 ??

Thanks in advance.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Andre,

I assume the rivets you are discussing are those on the painted portion of the upper skin.

If it were my coach I would look for black "sooting: around the rivet after a lengthy trip. The upper skins are aluminum and if the rivet is working loose there will be that black staining from the rivet working against the surface of the skin. On aircraft this is how we identify loose rivets.

While replacing the rivet may be the best way to correct the problem I would first try to seal the rivet rather than replacing a loose rivet. I would mask about 1/8" all around the rivet and apply this: http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/proflex-brushable-sealant/21208

As a last resort I would consider using replacment rivets.

[ajducote]

Jon,

Thanks. I was actually thinking the same thing. Sealing would be much easier and faster. But knowing how to do the rivet replacement would be good information for the future. A just in case kind of thing.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

At one time they were $1.00 apiece and it took a large pop rivet tool to install them. Next time you are at Prevost or if you get a chance to see International Bus Parts they can show you the rivets and how to insert them.

[BrianE]

Andre,

The original stainless rivets are 3/16's and they can be obtained from Prevost. IBP also carries them and they are cheaper but are 1/4". The head size however is identical with the originals. This is not a bad thing however as it allows you to remove the rivets with a sharp 3/16" drill and clean up the hole with a good sharp 1/4" drill. Prevost uses stainless rivets throughout but an aluminum replacement here and there in the aluminum panels would be easier to install. Pulling stainless rivets requires a lot of leverage and it can be done with a long handled rivet puller but must be done with two people because when the rivet stem breaks the puller will slip and damage the surrounding area unless one person steadies the tool and holds a rag around the tool head. A much better way to go is with a hydraulic or pneumatic puller. I have one of these http://www.fsirivet.com/product_info.php?id=6.and it works great but is not cheap. Send me a PM and maybe I can help you in that department. A properly installed rivet does not need sealant and I would not recommend it if the rivets are to be painted. Replacing rivets isn't rocket science but you do have to be careful. Good luck.

[ajducote]

Brian,

Thanks for the reply and information. I am starting to understand what is required.
Would this tool for Harbor Freight work?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98898

The price seems reasonable and does multiple sizes. I would hope that I would rarely need to use it, but the right tool always make the job easier. Even if it is just for a couple of rivets.

Or, would the link that you sent me be a better choice? I di d not see a price for this one.

[flyu2there]

Personally, I do not think that I would use a ss pop rivit on aluminum. I understand that Prevost does during manufacture however the force required may certainly cause dimpling or worse in the aluminum skin. I would also advise dipping the replacement aluminum rivit in Alodine or the equivelent as well as treating the drilled area "just in case" any corrosion may have started. I would reserve the ss rivits for ss.

Jon calls it sooting, I call it walking but, on an aircraft when black appears around a rivit it can be serious, mainly because the rivits are for the most part structural, in essence they hold the thing together. Rivit failures can cause an airplane to evolve into a bunch of parts flying in a rather loose formation....no bueno! When I find a walking rivit I generally replace many more than just the offender. I do not believe that the skin on the bus is "structural" however I would replace both neighbor rivits as well. Because these are "blind" rivits or pop rivits if you prefer the steel pin that the rivit gun is pulling on to set the rivit can and may rust, a dollup of clear silicone when finished will stop that.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Personally, I do not think that I would use a ss pop rivit on aluminum. I understand that Prevost does during manufacture however the force required may certainly cause dimpling or worse in the aluminum skin. I would also advise dipping the replacement aluminum rivit in Alodine or the equivelent as well as treating the drilled area "just in case" any corrosion may have started. I would reserve the ss rivits for ss.

Jon calls it sooting, I call it walking but, on an aircraft when black appears around a rivit it can be serious, mainly because the rivits are for the most part structural, in essence they hold the thing together. Rivit failures can cause an airplane to evolve into a bunch of parts flying in a rather loose formation....no bueno! When I find a walking rivit I generally replace many more than just the offender. I do not believe that the skin on the bus is "structural" however I would replace both neighbor rivits as well. Because these are "blind" rivits or pop rivits if you prefer the steel pin that the rivit gun is pulling on to set the rivit can and may rust, a dollup of clear silicone when finished will stop that.

There are rivets available with the mandrel that is pulled is the same material as the rivet material, such as Aluminum, Bronze, Monel, Stainless Steel.
I would only use those kinds of rivets.

There are also availavble blind rivets (pop rivets) that do no have the mandrel protruding through the rivet, they are for areas where a liquid proof riveting is desired.

JIM

[flyu2there]

Jim,

Touche! You could really make one of these look pretty with flush rivits but that would require Clecko's and a whole lot of work!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Unless there is a screaming need for rivet replacment on the bus I wouldn't begin to think about doing it, especially up on the painted part. The production methods may have changed, but when we visited the factory in the early 90s the aluminum was applied hot so when it cooled it pulled itself tight eliminating buckles. You might get away with replacing a rivet or two but if the project gets extensive I see the skin starting to get misaligned with the holes.

[ajducote]

Thanks to all who have responded. Little by little I am getting schooled on rivets.

Jon, I only have 2 "possible" loose rivets that "might" be causing a very small water leak, and only when it rains REAL HARD.

At some point I may try to replace them, but for now I will just try to seal them as you suggested in an earlier post.
The point of this exercise was to become somewhat knowledgeable of the process before it becomes necessary to do the work.
Try to be prepared before the need arises.

[flyu2there]

"Unless there is a screaming need for rivet replacment on the bus I wouldn't begin to think about doing it, especially up on the painted part. The production methods may have changed, but when we visited the factory in the early 90s the aluminum was applied hot so when it cooled it pulled itself tight eliminating buckles. You might get away with replacing a rivet or two but if the project gets extensive I see the skin starting to get misaligned with the holes."

Jon,

That's the purpose of Cleco's...temporary rivits so to speak, still could be a big job.


6424


Putting goop around a rivit to seal it.....no, especially in aluminum and even more especially if you live in high humidity or close to the ocean. Corrosion may well rear its ugly head in the skin, first little bubbles in the paint later, skin replacement. I doubt that the skins on these busses were treated at the factory with a corrosion inhibitor.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

FWIW I would almost bet the rivets are not the source of the leak.

[ajducote]

Update,

It think I found my water leak. The leak only occurred when it rained REAL Hard. The water would show up under my kitchen cabinets. I finally traced it to a side marker light that was allowing water in behind the light fixture gasket. I put a little silicone on it to take care of until I get home. The I will replace all the side marker light gaskets.

So Jon was right, it does not appear that the rivets were the source of the leak.