Dirty Job But Somebody has to do it!

[rfoster]

I have recently spent considerable time under my coach polishing the slack adjusters in preparation for POG2 and have noticed that the refrigerator wasn't cycling on and off as I felt it should. Checking under the refrigerator inside the coach and was disappointed to see the amount of lint that had accumalated on the coils preventing them from shedding the heat
After vaccuming and blowing with compressed air - the refrigerator now seems to be cycling off more than on. Mission accomplished.
Just wanted to pass this on so the rest of you bus drivers could get your hands dirty too.

[MangoMike]

You know Rog, that's what I love about you. You're always thinking about your fellow bus driver.

MM

[Jerry Winchester]

Mike,

I am sure he had one of the porters out there doing all that work. They are probably sick of that bus already.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Obviously Roger has just laid down a smoke screen.

I'm fairly certain I can't see my refrigerator coils while polishing my slack adjusters, so I think we all need to be a little afraid of Fast Roger.

I think what really happened was he pulled the refrigerator out so he could wax the back of it in preparation for the bling contest. Last I heard was that since he has developed skills with his stainless steel polishing techniques he has put a mirror polish on the inside of his fuel tank.

[rfoster]

I can see now I need to take at least one pair of boots to SF

[dalej]

We are back in full swing. We decided before Kerrville we had better get all the wheels pollished, so I got Jan to help out since I needed to change the seals in the drive and tag axles.

Does anyone know if all the seals are the same?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

The tag and steer seals on your coach are the same. The drive is different. If you need the Chicago Rawhide numbers I think I have them recorded somewhere.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

That is a picture of the tag spindle, right?

I would think the drive axle seal is gonna be bigger.

These hubs on these busses require 1 additional step to remove and replace seals. Where most seals are just knocked out with a hammer and punch these hubs have a flange that is attatched to them with bolts that first have to be removed in order to pound out the old seal .

Gonna refill with full synthetic gear lube? Do It Do It;)

I'll betcha it will be a long time before Jan volenteers for that job again.

[dalej]

Jon, that would help since I can't read the info on the seal. I have them out on the tag and was going to take it in tomorrow morning. They might be able to measure it.

Is the seal for the sight gauge cap easy to get?

I'm waiting to do the drive axle after the tag, just thought it would be better.

Joe said...Gonna refill with full synthetic gear lube? Do It Do It!

Is that the lube to use? I was going to call Prevost in the morning to see what they recomend.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Well Dale, By the looks of how Jan is dressed I'd say winter is over for you. It looks like the party is over too. Are you getting new rubber,( tires are off )? How about a pressure wash of th chassis and a little black paint now that everything is exposed.:) JIM

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Make sure you get some help retightning, the axle nut sockets tend to fit a little sloppy. And don't be ashamed to set the outer locking nuts with a hammer and chissle to MAKE SURE THEY ARE TIGHT.

Be carful, have fun.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale...here's the disclaimer...my logs went with my 87 coach so I don't know which went where so I am giving you a best guess. The numbers are correct.

Drive: Chicago Rawhide 48690 Steer and Tag: Chicago Rawhide 40086

Seal under the hub nut cover on the steer and tag: Stemco 3060. (Here is another disclaimer...there are two sizes. I think that one is right, but if not try Stemco 3024 which I think is for buses with disk brakes.)

If any of this is wrong post it so someone reading the posts in the future gets the correct numbers.

[Orren Zook]

Jon, that would help since I can't read the info on the seal. I have them out on the tag and was going to take it in tomorrow morning. They might be able to measure it.

Is the seal for the sight gauge cap easy to get?

I'm waiting to do the drive axle after the tag, just thought it would be better.



Dale, the part numbers on C/R seals are found on the oil side of the seal - nearest the bearings. You should be able to determine what you are using from the inner/outer bearing numbers too. You can buy new 6 bolt Stemco type caps with a gasket and bolts for about $6.50. It's more trouble than it's worth to try to change the window in those caps.

[truk4u]

Dale,

I showed Nancy the picture of Jan buffing, no good, she draws the line at drying and wiping the stainless with vinegar and water.;)

[dalej]

Thanks guys for the info, I'll take it to the NAPA man in the morning.

I looked on the oil side of the seal and it says....CR 40086

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Dale

When was the last time the rear-end was drained, 100000? Thats when it due. I run full Synthetic everyware I can, lawnmower and EVERYTHING.

Good Stuff.

The oil cavities on the tag and steer axle hubs are relatively small and make prime candidates for synthetic lube.

[dalej]

Joe the bus has 190,000 on it now and I'm the first to touch these seals. Don't scold me since I can plead... I didn't know :)

I think its a good idea to do all the oil too. Do I just ask for synthetic oil for a drive axle?

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Joe Cannarozzi,Dale
I run full Synthetic everywhere I can, lawnmower and EVERYTHING.

Good Stuff.

I agree Joe, Synthetic Wherever You Can! :) JIM

[Orren Zook]

Dale,

CR Scotseals are available in two different styles... one is called classic and requires a seal driver for installation and a plus type that does not use a special tool to install it in the hub. Most seal failures are caused by improper installation. Around here the plus version costs an extra $2 a seal, and you won't need two or three different tools to install the tag, drive and front wheel seals.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This may bring some criticism, but I was able to install all my seals using a wide board that completely covered the seal and by careful tapping with a hammer. So far I have not had any failures of seals I installed that way.

[dalej]

I called four places around our home and couldn't find the parts so I called Prevost Expar. The replacement parts are as follows...

Steer/Tag seal #610754/$23.89
Drive seal #621069/$36.88

Steer/Tag gasket #610755/$2.69
Drive gasket #620923/$2.88

note: Out bus is a 1986 w/o disk brakes

[Orren Zook]

Jon Wehrenberg;This may bring some criticism, but I was able to install all my seals using a wide board that completely covered the seal and by careful tapping with a hammer. So far I have not had any failures of seals I installed that way.

Well Jon, now the secret is out we all know the special tool MR. Z. was speaking of. Just because it wasn't made by some commercial manufacturer doesn't mean it isn't any good!

Kinda like tomatoes, home made is often better.:) JIM

I have a lot of customers that also use a block of wood to install their wheel seals, some successful and some not so. The design of the classic version of the scotseal is such that it will allow the top portion of the seal to bell or compress if struck after the seal has seated against the bearing race. This bending of the seal housing then causes either the sealing surface not to contact the inner wall of the seal or worst case result locks the movable inner seal member to the outer housing causing a groove to wear on the axle spindle that might require a speedi-sleeve or the axle surgeon to repair. When the installation tool is used you will hear a different metallic ring as the seal seats against the bearing race when you use the seal driver.

I scanned four pages of a CR installation for reference, but its too big to upload even page by page, if anyone's interested in this PM me and I'll send it to you.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Thanks for the professional insight Orren! :o JIM

[dalej]

Man...this is a job for the big dogs! I think I will let Jan do it and I will polish wheels. :)

PS...What is the best poor-mans way to put these seals in?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

Just a few comments...separate the hub and brake drum. I suggest that so you do not add any leverage on the seal as it slides into position. Much easier to slide on the hub. The screws holding the drum to the hub may be hard to get out. I made a "screwdriver" tip from a cold chisel and was able to nurse all the screws out carefully using short bursts from the 1/2 impact wrench. Use Never-Seez when you replace the screws with new ones. I never have figured out why the screws are there. The drum isn't going anywhere.

Orren provided sage advice. I have been dodging bullets by gently tapping on a board that is on the seal, after I position the seal on the hub. The key is to not get the seal cockeyed. Patience.

The inner portion of the seal that contacts the spindle must rotate freely within the seal. Critical. If you damage the seal installing it and the inner portion does not freely turn, junk it and start again.

A final note of caution, and this is important. When you replace the hub the oil reservoirs for the bearings are going to be dry. Make sure they have been refilled, either by tipping the differential, or by pumping or pouring rear end oil in there.

[dalej]

Jon, those were the right numbers for the hub wheel seals. I ordered the parts from Prevost so the numbers are different, posted earlier.

Drive: Chicago Rawhide 48690
Steer and Tag: Chicago Rawhide 40086

Thanks for all the info guys. I'm waiting for the parts now. The cost was about what it would have been thru NAPA.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

For removing the screws holding the hub assembly together, I would suggest an impact screwdriver. It is usually about 1.5" in dia. and about 8" long with a 3/8" square drive. The tool body is knurled for a secure hand hold. Select the correct square drive tip( flat blade or whatever is reqd.) for the job and insert the blade into the screw slot and apply a counter clockwise force on the handle. Hold the tool perpendicular to the screw and apply sharp hammer blows to the end of the tool. This is a good tool for this application, you get a sharp impact of torque turning the fastener along with a linear force driving the blade into the slot.
This tool is especially useful in an application that an experienced mechanic knows at a glance will be troublesome.
I recommend this method above the customary impact wrench because it has the linear force combined with the twisting action. Screws and bolts in blind cavities usually only need the tool for initial loosening, after which a conventional screwdriver or wrench may be used.
The conventional impact wrench is too powerful and abusive to the fastener. It is difficult to hold the tool unto the work and often damages it. Forcing one to drill it out and retap the hole. :eek: JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

Been there and done that and have the Tee shirt.

Trust me, that tool will not work on 1/2" screws. A tight fitting screwdriver tip that cannot move or damage the screw head is required unless you want to get out the old torch and start heating parts.

The impact wrench is not to over power the screw, but to kiss it with just enough force to break the corrosion and whatever else it holding it.

These are slotted, FH screws and some idiot that has never worked on a coach specified them. Later coaches have phillips screws which are not much better, but are an improvement.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

The way your removing the hubs is the hardest in terms of weight.

When I replaced a seal on the drive axle I did not remove the tires seperatly. I simply pulled the axle and then jacked the rear end housing so the tires were right at the point of leaving the ground, then just slid everything off on a smooth slippery piece of metal. I usually get stuck with no help and by doing it this way I had to lift nothing.

Removing it as you are with the brake drum still attatched to the hub makes for a very heavy assembly.

Here, once again, prevo adds another step to a process that in most other cases does not exzist. The brake drums are screwed to the hubs with large flat head tapered screws. I might add that they are also not easy to loosten and or remove. I'll bet you tried but couldn't.

It will not be easy for you to reinstall with the new seal with the drum still attatched to the hub. To be safe you might get some help lifting that back up so as not to nick that new seal going back in. Either that or get those tapered flat head screws loose and out and seperate the drum from the hub.

OOPS, sorry, better late than never.

[dalej]

I haven't had to nor want to try and lift this assembly, as the photos shows I'm using a floor jack to lift and carry the assembly away to work on.

I was going to ask if anyone has had to pay someone to replace the seals. Jan says that the money I haved saved on labor, she could spend on cloths! She wants a dollar amount! :o

[garyde]

Hi Dale. You are very industrious. I would not have attempted this project on my own. Take more pictures! Gary

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Dale

How about all that room to get at the trans and the back side of the 8-V with those tires out of there, gotta love that.

What do the drums look like? Are you going to put new shoes and spring kits on? What about the radius rod bushings, are the collers on them squishing out or bits breaking off? Would love to be there to help out.

I never did get those screws out of our hubs. I wonder what would happen it a guy put it back togeather without them? The lug nuts with tight tires hold all that togeather on every other large hub assembly I have ever taken apart, Jon?

Dale I know your pollishing but you might concider pulling the other side without removing the tires, just the axle the jam nuts and outer bearing. I suppose it will depend on how this side goes back togeather. A block under the frame and a jack under the axle raising it just enough to clear the ground, mabye not even but right at that point, with a piece of something smooth and oiled up underneeth. I'm out all day but call if you have a question 708 243 7871

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

dalej;I haven't had to nor want to try and lift this assembly, as the photos shows I'm using a floor jack to lift and carry the assembly away to work on.

I was going to ask if anyone has had to pay someone to replace the seals. Jan says that the money I have saved on labor, she could spend on cloths! She wants a dollar amount! :o

Dale, I give you a lot of credit, tackling the job enough in advance of POG. At least you don't have the pressure to finish in a weekend. You still have 20 days or so to go. Don't give up yet. Do a little each day and you won't get hurt or frustrated.
You tell Jan the money saved is for your clothes and Chiropractic tune-ups. :D ;) JIM

[dalej]

Joe....what is all this?

***What do the drums look like? Are you going to put new shoes and spring kits on? What about the radius rod bushings, are the collers on them squishing out or bits breaking off?


I just want to get in, change the seals and get out! ;)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

Joe is right. But...You knew that was coming didn't you....the best way is to use one of those carriers designed to support the wheels and just roll it stright back off the spindle. Joes method works, but I chickened out. In order to aslide that much weight off the spindle and then straight back on when the seal is replaced is a real challenge so I opted to just break everything down. Like you I used a floor jack and the little extra time spent was worthwhile.

To address the investment in time, you will do all the learning on the first one. After that I would guess it is about 1.5 hours each and that involves some time to point out where Jan missed a few spots.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Dale

If youv'e gotten the impression I'm trying to make more work for you, I am.:D
But if your planning on keeping it you'll be saving time and money later, you are familiar with the routine I am sure. If your drums are nice and true you could put new shoes and spring kits on that litterally in minutes.

I didn't mention that when you pull your tag on the passanger side that will all but expose your Bendix Air Dryer. The service interval on that is 2 years. Its a snap, with the wheel gone, to disconnect a couple of air lines, a couple of wires and loosten 2 mounting brackets. Under 200 for a rebuilt with an exchange.

To remove it never having done it before, 1 hour, max. Same going back in.

Just a thought.

[dalej]

I serviced the air dryier four or five years ago, do you think when you only put 10,000 miles on a year you should still change them every 2 years? I did think about it since its right there.

I have to get a big pan or a kids plastic pool so I can clean all the parts without getting the shop floor all oily. I will inspect all the other parts then.

PS I was going to buy silver spray paint to repaint the drums in the event Jon wants to inspect! :)

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Dale, hi-temp Bar B Q grill paint @ Lowe's or Home Depot. Flat black is nice. JIM:)

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Dale, I would service the air dryer at this time as dry air is extremely important in keeping your air leveling system and other devices functioning trouble free. It will be easy to do now as everything is open and the cost is minimal compared to having to look for trouble in the air system in the future. If you dont't elect to do it now, ask yourself the question, WHEN Will I? When a problem surfaces and it is too late? Preventive maintenance is the key to trouble free and happy motoring. Don't put out fires as they occur have a plan! JIM:D

[Petervs]

Hi Dale, Nice project you have going there.

I sold industrial air dryers for 30 years, and although they are not exactly the same as the Bendix, the theory of operation is similar.

The dryer has desiccant inside which grabs the water molecules as they pass by in the compressed air stream. When the dryer dumps ( the loud noise you hear it make every now and then ( every time the compresser unloads because the air tank is up to pressure) the water molecules are released by the desiccant and purged to the outside air. The desiccant is then ready to grab more water molecules and the cycle repeats.

The reason we change desiccant at some interval is if dirt or especially oil gets on the surface of the desiccant it blocks the sites where the water molecules hang on and the effectiveness of the dryer is reduced . The oil comes from the compressor if it is oil lubricated and the dirt comes in with the incoming air if the air filter is compromised, and other contaminants can be smog or chemicals in the air itself. The industry has decided that a two year interval is sensible for typical over the road trucks, they probably average over 100,000 miles a year. The dryers are still working fine usually at that 2 year, 200,000 mile time point.

In your case, and my case, I think some other interval rather than a time of two years makes more sense if you only drive 10,000 miles a year. Maybe a 5-10 year interval is sensible. It is much like changing a roll of toilet paper that is still 3/4 there, just because it has been hanging on the wall for 31 days......that is not a good reason to do it!

I vote for less work , get the bus on the road, and have go have fun.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

This is just an observation about my brake lining, hub seal project.

I got into it because I had one of the brake shoe return springs break. When I got things apart I saw one seal was starting to leak and some oil had gotten on the shoes, and I saw one of the shoes had cracked friction material. It was because I took things fully apart that all these little things became apparent.

I should add to maintain my A1 status that once I had the wheel with the broken return spring apart (that was the only problem there) I took the other one apart just to do a detailed inspection and found the remaining problems.

It was at that point that I looked at all the other linings and just decided to do the entire bus, and to replace the leaky seal.

My coach at the time was in the 175 to 185,000 mile range. While none of the shoes was worn down to the point where the friction material absolutely had to be replaced, several had cracks radiating from the screws holding them in place. But, and this was unknown to me, I had two seals replaced early on by Prevost before I started doing my own work, and I found that the oil from the seals seemed to have glazed a couple of the linings. When I replaced the brake lining friction material my coach stopped like it never had before. I never knew how bad my brakes were.

Our brakes are not that good relative to the other vehicles on the road, and I now know anything I can do to improve them is a big plus.

[dalej]

Peter, I like the way you think, it make very good sence to me.

Jon, I will be cleaning up all the parts soon so I can take photos if somthing looks questionable. I wll be asking more questions I'm sure.

I sure don't want to still be working on the bus for at least a week from leaving for Kerrville. Keep in mind if you don't see me at the POGIII, one of the hubs probably fell off along the way :)

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Peter

I think you are dead on with your comments and observations regarding the Dryer.

The contaminating oil is deffinatly a common occurance.

I would also like to add that concidering its location on the bus compared to where they are mounted on semis it is shielded better in extreem cold conditions and probably would last longer without failure in those conditions.

Failures at the heating element or power going to it are also reletivly common as well.

Good comments about conciderations of adjusted service intervals with our application.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Peter

I think you are dead on with your comments and observations regarding the Dryer.

The contaminating oil is deffinatly a common occurance.

I would also like to add that concidering its location on the bus compared to where they are mounted on semis it is shielded better in extreem cold conditions and probably would last longer without failure in those conditions.

Failures at the heating element or power going to it are also reletivly common as well.

Good comments about conciderations of adjusted service intervals with our application.

Peter, how can you tell if the desiccant is contaminated?

Joe, how do you know that the heating element is functioning ?

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Keep in mind if you don't see me at the POGIII, one of the hubs probably fell off along the way :)


Dale; Don't even JOKE about something like that happening!!!!!:mad: :eek:

Gary S

[dalej]

When we built our house in 87/88 I did a lot of the work myself and I always have this feeling that I might have forgot somthing. So when the wind blows (which it does a lot in Nebraska) I look for somthing like the roof to fly off. :)

I have been cleaning the hubs, drums and everthing else while I wait for the new seals to arrive.

I'm pretty sure the seals have never been touched since I have been having a time seperating the drums from the hubs. One down and three to go. Probably start putting things back together tomorrow or Friday.

If I thought anyone out there would do this I would take photos and do a show and tell via the internet.

[dalej]

If I were you guys I would invest in floor-dri, the way I'm using it it's bound to go up. I can't believe how much 90 weight gear oil soaks up this stuff.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

Go to the front page of the POG site. I wrote a blurb about replacing the hub seals. I would appreciate if you could refine it because my old bus was long gone when I wrote it from memory.

Make all the corrections you need to, add better or more pictures and see if Jim can post the revised updated document.

Jon

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

If I were you guys I would invest in floor-dri, the way I'm using it it's bound to go up. I can't believe how much 90 weight gear oil soaks up this stuff.

Dale: You mean how much Floor-Dri soaks up the 90 weight gear oil, RIGHT?

Its probably just dislexia, or is it aixelsid. I think it comes with age. :rolleyes:



I used to think I was wrong, but then I found out I was mistaken. :eek:

Gary S

[Petervs]

Hi Dryer fans.

The electric heater is only there to keep the unit from freezing in cold weather, heat trace if you will.

The desiccant is clean and white when new, and if any oil or dirt gets in there it begins to discolor a bit. When you change the desiccant cartridge you may be able to see the diffrence if you had been passing any oil.

The desiccant is a surface area type of thing, a pound of desiccant has like an acre of surface area ( it is porous like a sponge, only hard as a rock) and there are "sites" where the water molecules grab on. If they are covered in oil they are no longer usable by the water molecule. Eventually you replace the desiccant to keep it working.

In the industrial world, there is a special coalescing filter installed in front of the dryer to catch liquid water and any oil, so only oil vapor and water vapor gets to the desiccant. In that application, we recommended 5 year desiccant changes, but it was not needed for 10 years, and that is with the system running 24/7.

In our case, the air is hot from compression so would not have any liquid water in it at that point, only water vapor. But it is always 100% saturated with water, like 100% humidity. Think of outside air on even a dry day at 15% humidity getting sucked into the air compressor, then compressing 8 times ambient pressure to 110 psi, , the same amount of water is still in there! So if you run it down a long pipe or store it in a tank for a while, it cools back down and essentially rains inside the pipe or tank. That is why liquid water builds up if you do not have a dryer to remove it, or operate the drain ports regularly. Leave it in there on a freezing day and the frozen water blocks the air from doing it's job, like operating brakes.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This is merely an educated guess, so take it with a grain of salt.

As a compressor ages it will pass increasing amounts of oil. That oil as has been discussed will render the media in the dryer ineffective. When the media will no longer attract or hold the oil (or water) it will pass into the bus air system. Evidence that is happening will be detected in the area where the air dryer discharges that little shot of air at the end of every cycle.

If the area around the air dryer discharge is showing evidence of oil to me it indicates that the cartridge needs to be replaced, but also that the compressor may be in need of rebuilding or replacement.

[Larry W]

Maybe another test of the dryer is to watch for mositure when you drain the air tanks. If water is present as the tanks are drained the dyer may not be working. My brother-law runs ran a number of trucks and told me on his trucks if water was found they serviced the dyer

Larry W
2000 Royale

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Excellent suggestion with one word of caution.

It may be possible that if the aux compressor is run frequently such as when the bus is parked, that compressed air may not be passing through a dryer or moisture trap. That will show as water in the aux tank. That aux compressor air does not pass through the bus air dryer.

[dalej]

Jon and others...

I had a question about brakes. When I back up, somthing I don't do much, I notice the brakes vibrate and make noise. I have noticed this since owning the bus. If I back real slow and brake light its worse. If I brake hard, no or not much noise.

Is there a way to flip shoes so they wear better? Seems when you brake going forward 99 pecent of the time maybe they wear in a certain way.

[dalej]

A note on removing the brake drums first before removing the hubs from the axle. I used a air chisel to vibrate the bolts loose so I could remove them. After the 5 bolts were removed I couldn't get the drum off since it was rusted to the hub.

I took the whole assembly out side, turned upright and used a 1 inch pipe over the bolts and a sledge to break it loose. I have the two drive hubs done with the tag left.

I think to not damage the new seals it is going to be best to do it this way. There will be far less weight to contend with.

I don't think this has ever been apart in 21 years.

[Petervs]

If you use an auxiliary air compressor while the engine is not running and wet air gets into the system, then later you run the dryer while driving and dry air is added to the system.

This dry air will dry out the previously deposited water over a period of time so you may not get an indication by draining the tanks.

My personal plan is to service the dryer every 5 years.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale, I have no clue what would cause that vibration, but it obviously is the brakes alternately grabbing and releasing. Are the brake shoe pivots tight? How are the return springs? Do you have any corrosion or pitting on the drums? Are the brake shoe linings oil soaked or glazed?

I have no answers whatsoever.

Good job on the seal replacement. Add tips to the procedure. When I do my disk brakes or replace a hub seal I will add to the procedure because as written it covers drum brakes.

[dalej]

I'm kinda at a stand still. I have the tag hubs back together (except the oil) and I'm working on the drive axles.

The weather has been hanging around 20-30 degrees so that the 80-90 weight gear lube is more like 200-300 weight. If it would just warm up so I could finish this job.

I don't know if I like that countdown to POG3, it gives me an anxiety feeling.:)

[bluevost]

Dale,

If the countdown clock didn't change last weekend, you have one less hour than you think. Hurry!!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

When I filled the hubs on the front axle and the tags it was relatively warm and I would pour a little oil in and it would take forever to flow through the bearings. I would add a few ounces and then just wait for the oil to seep into place. It took forever. At your cold temperatures maybe you can get Jan to heat up your oil in one of her favorite pots.

[dalej]

Lets talk about a good and easy way to remove the spring that holds down the drive axle brake pads. What is it? Thats the hardest part of this seal replacement job! Please don't say you need a special tool.:)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

I have no special tools, and I replaced all my brake linings on the 1987 bus about 5 years ago, which meant I also removed and replaced every spring.

For the life of me I cannot remember how I did it, which tells me that it was not that big of a deal. I may have attached them and then put the pivots back into the shoes. How about Joe...he's had to have replaced tons of those springs?

[dalej]

I think I should have done the drive first, the tag was a piece of cake

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

I looked at my pictures and it appears I did attach the springs first and then slide the pivot pins in place.

[dalej]

Jon, thats the tag axle and its easy to access the springs. The drive is hard to access. I got them off, just thought there might be a trick to easying the spring back on.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon, thats the tag axle and its easy to access the springs. The drive is hard to access. I got them off, just thought there might be a trick to easying the spring back on.
Post that picture Dale so the brain trust can postulate till Joe steps in!:D :D
Show all the parts ready to go in. ;) JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

I couldn't find any of the drive axle assembly sequence. Sorry. I am wracking my brain and nothing stands out so I'm either having a senior moment or I accidently stumbled across a reasonably easy way to do it.

If it was tough I'm thinking I would have made notes or took pictures.

Mine are getting close to replacement. Can you get new shoes or do you have to get new friction material and put it on the old shoes?

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Special tools for Dale. http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/vehicle-specialty-tools-brake-service-tools-heavy-duty-drum-brake-service-tools.html ("http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/vehicle-specialty-tools-brake-service-tools-heavy-duty-drum-brake-service-tools.html")
:( Lew Bucks flittering away.:D JIM

[dalej]

On this one I took the top holding pin out along with the both rollers on the other side of the shoes. Lifting and pulling toward me then lowering down while holding the bottom shoe up. you could block the bottom shoe. the spring is really easy to remove. I hope the reverse is also true. I will post.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Those wacky French Canadians, the'll getcha.

There are many different things about the hub assemblies and related items that I have already encountered that I haven't seen before. Haven't needed to mess with the brakes yet.

For what its worth.

I can see by looking at the pic of the tag they are using 2 springs on the S-Cam end where only 1 is normal.

The rollers that ride the S-Cam I can't see good enough. What I'm use to is the roller can go on with the top shoe the bottom roller you can insert after getting shoes up but before instaling the second spring.

First make sure the S-Cam is adjusted all the way back. Attatch the 2 shoes togeather with the inside spring. Put the top one on with the bottom one cocked but still connected to it by the back spring and then with the top one in straighten and place the bottom one by pushing down on the shoe, stretching the spring far enough to get it uncocked and in place. Insert lower roller, Insert outer spring.

Vice grips to clamp and stretch the front springs.

Probably easier said than done till ya do it once or twice.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, I think I did a similar or slight variation to what you just posted. If you look at my tag axle photo you will see the rollers were not yet installed.

As I mentioned my drive axle is getting close to needing new shoes or new friction material, so when I do it I will detail it carefully with photos and better text if dale doesn't do it first. I'm kind of holding off because I have some thickness left and the hub seals are bone dry so I hate to mess with it.

[dalej]

I was looking at this whole brake pad removal from the stand point of just replaceing the pads with the hubs on. It just looks like a job with a capitol J.

When I took the photo with the hubs removed, it was easy. Just wanting to know what the trick is if you don't have to do the seals.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Maybe it is because I am A1, but I pulled everything apart except the slack adjusters when it came time to do my brake linings. I replaced the hub seals just because I had it taken down to that point and it wasn't going to get any easier than doing it then.

One of the seals had already been leaking so it had to be done anyway.

[dalej]

Anyone want to take a shot at whats going on here?

[ken&ellen]

Dale, Just wanted to be a smart a_ _. I am guessing you are filling your differential with oil. Ken

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The tip off was the funnel with the 90 degree fitting.

Dale obviously go real tired of pouring a few tablespoons of diff. oil into the funnel and then waiting 10 minutes for it to go down.

I used a device I got from Northern that you can use to suck oil or brake fluid into it, or by moving a valve, pressurize it to pump oil. It holds about 8L so I had to fill it about 2 1/2 times to fill the differential, but I would pump it up, go do something and come back 5 or 10 minutes later to either pump it up some more, or to refill it.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200007974_200007974

[dalej]

I had made up the funnel to fill the drive hubs with enough oil to run over the bearing races. Then I put the outside bearing in and finished the rest of the hub assembly.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Dale a few questions
1-What is sealing up where the clear tube goes through the cap. The air fitting too.

2- Are you regulating the air press and to what?

3- Are those c-clamps or adjustable bar clamps or?

In the wrong hands that could get ugly:eek:

But I like it.

[dalej]

Dale a few questions

1-What is sealing up where the clear tube goes through the cap. The air fitting too.

Answer... I wrapped a little teflon tape around the tube, but wouldn't have to. I drilled the holes slightly smaller.

2- Are you regulating the air press and to what?

Answer...my air compressor has a regulator on it and it is just turned up enough to run the oil, otherwise it might blow the cap off.

3- Are those c-clamps or adjustable bar clamps or?

Answer...those are two plummers plyers, the air was starting to leak around the rim. I held them closed with bungees.

I know what your thinking....SMART VERY SMART!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Dale do you have OTR A/C and if so do you have a different belt tension cylinders for the fan and the a/c compressor?

[dalej]

Dale do you have OTR A/C and if so do you have a different belt tension cylinders for the fan and the a/c compressor?

Answer...I don't have any auto air belt tensioner thingy's, I'm a real man and use wrench's!

I did not mean to say Smart Very Smart.... I meant A poor man has poor ways.

[rfoster]

I have been wanting to show off my non Michelin Tires, but just didn't have the right opportunity till I got em shaped up.
1088

1089

1090

Its hard to get good help these days, but finally got r dun:cool:

[Orren Zook]

Wow Roger, are those tires rubber or plastic?

[dalej]

Roger,

I put the polished side of the wheel down on carpet so as not to scratch or scuff any of the pretty. I take off and put on from the back of the wheel.

I never feel like I should suggest ideas to you and Jon, since you guys are the go-to guys.

PS...I wished I had your irons

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale, the reason we know so much is because we screwed up so much.

Tire irons were from Gemplers.

http://www.gemplers.com/tiressupplies/beadbreaking/G64521.html

You can mess up on the aluminum wheels putting tires on and off. They are easy to work on. But I know two guys that can tell you for sure there is only one way to remove and replace the tires on those steel wheels.

Someday Roger will put on a seminar about mounting Chinese tires with a Bobcat.

[dalej]

I can't talk, since I just bought a chinese tire for the tag. I had one that was really wearing bad, so I put a new R12 tire on. $285 for chinese and around $425 for the big M

If that tire blows I'm never going cheap again.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I can't talk, since I just bought a chinese tire for the tag. I had one that was really wearing bad, so I put a new R12 tire on. $285 for chinese and around $425 for the big M

If that tire blows I'm never going cheap again.

Dale, Maybe something to be looked at from the other side. If the Chinese brand is good you will not pay too much again for the M brand.

The bad part is when they finally put all the competition out of business. I hope we won't have to War with them. How will we get our supplies if they cut us off.

:eek: JIM

[dalej]

AMEN to that!

[rfoster]

OZ: They look like the hard plastic you see on toys, but they didn't cost that much so they are rubber with tire wet dressing.

Dale et al: I have to pass the credit to Jan, my new best friend for polishing my rims, and to A1-Jon for loading the tires in his truck and driving from knoxville to a deep remote location in the hills, bringing his tire irons and installing the new meats on the bus while I watched and sipped Iced tea. He ducked his head when I snapped the photo, but that is A1 working his magic with those tire irons. What a guy!

Life is good!:cool:

as I saw on anothers post:
Kerrville Bound!

[dalej]

How about now, anyone have a guess as to what I'm up to?



I know why they call this one, Busted Knuckles and Greasy Jeans!

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

That wouldn't be a box of vine juice would it.:confused: :eek:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Wouldn't be working on some Cruise Airs?

[dalej]

Well I found something else to do on the bus. Since I had oil leaking somewhere, when I got
home from Kerrville, I had started checking it out. I had to get under the bus, over on top of the
transmission with the engine on high idle, I could see a couple of leaky hoses.

It didn't take long to figure out I didn't have 1 ½ wrenches, so I ordered a set of Crowfeet
wrenches. Now I could get in the tight space and undo the hoses, the little one was easy but the
big transmission line was a bit hard to get to.

Then looking around I had noticed black exhaust around the exhaust manifold on the right hand
side, so there I go taking it off so I can get parts tomorrow.
I guess its not unusual for part of the gasket to burn up, didn't know this.

I had just finished putting in a new Bendix air dryer kit. I had put the new tag axle brake return
springs in.

I had told Jan that I don’t think I can work anymore, since all my time is spent maintaining our
bus.

Here are some photos from the day.

[Ray Davis]

Dale, you are my idol!! I need to move to Nebraska and get some property with a barn!

Your manifold looks pretty chewed up. You may need to send it to a machine shop and have the ports ground flat again (there's a proper term for this, but I don't remember it.)

If not, you might just burn another gasket pretty quickly.

[MangoMike]

This man isn't afraid of tackling any job.

Nice work.

Mango

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Dale it will never end but if you continue as you are you will for sure in a reasonably short period of time, get caught up and back ahead of the curve.

You folks have had that thing for what 10 yr now? Thats were we plan on taking ours and further. You are very realisticly, rapidly setting yourselfs up for another 10 years if you so choose. This is where you find real value.

I have a question about the manifold. Where the gasket went bad were the bolts loose? I have found a couple loose. I wonder what the tork ratings are for them, I just cranked them tight as I could.

Anyone with a decent surfacing machine can clean up that thing real quick.

I also had a major leak on the large elbow that comes out of the bell housing that one of the lines that goes to the external trans filter hooks up. I was able to get, with the floor panel removed from above, a large pry bar wedged right and put just enough of a twist on it to stop the leak.

It was already extreemly tight when I discovered the leak and I was barly able to tighten it further. Just enough and completly fixed now.

[dalej]

Joe, you are right on. We don't see trading or TWO BUS'N within the next five years. In Nebraska it a Classic after 25 year, so We might have classic plates soon.

You know we work with people all the time so to go out and work on the old gal in the barn, it's great therapy.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Yes therapy.

1183

Repairs, like some people, often disagree and give a hard time, but in the end I usually seem to have much better results from the repairs.:rolleyes:

Mabye I should work on that some , Ya think;)

[dalej]

Hey you do it your self POGGERS any idea what I'm up to now? When I was working on this, I thought, think any would know.

PS...this is going on the bus!

[jello_jeep]

I know, its a three port high volume turbo driven black tank dumper, for when the taco crew comes to visit!

[MangoMike]

Jello, hahahaha!

That was my exact thought. Nice job.

Now it's back to work getting ready for Mom's Day.

mm

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Looks like somebodys fabbin up some custom exhaust tips.

Thats nice, one of a kind.

How far will you have to go to get that chromed?

[dalej]

Good shot Joe, I have stainless steel tips that are going on soon. I will post before and after shots in a few days.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

What did you make that collecter out of? A piece of 4 inch with a 45 bend in it, off the shelf from someware?

I know how hard it is getting to get things, big things, chromed anymore. Even around the big city. And it takes forever. Stainless tips solve that.

So now you have the new LED tail lights, custom exhaust tips, and, what other unique customs are you planning to remove from the choices of others? How about a couple of bullet spots/w stainless visors for either side of the windshields, down low!

Make 2. I'll pay you;)

You can send it with the 10 door cylinders your sending me:eek:
Our gen compartment door is lined with a sheet of lead.

How far out of Chicago are you, 600?

[Orren Zook]

Hey you do it your self POGGERS any idea what I'm up to now? When I was working on this, I thought, think any would know.

PS...this is going on the bus!

what is that? a calliope? I once saw a similar one on the Delta Queen.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Looks like a muffler to collect engine and generator and webasto exhaust.

If it is, make sure of the venturii effect to prevent engine exhaust backflow into the generator or Webasto.

Relative to 8V92 manifolds....Dale has found one of the waek parts of that engine. I suspect he saw evidence of the blown gasket on his turbo boost gauge. That is usually the first clue unless the sooting occurs in a visible location. Also, it is not uncommon to crack those cast iron manifolds so in addition to monitoring the gaskets keep an eye on the manifiold itself.

For those intending to do what Dale has done, be aware of one thing not mentioned by Dale....it is very rare to pull a manifold without loosening and removing some of the studs. When the studs are loosened or removed you lose engine coolant. It is not a big deal as long as you have the pan under where you are working or you have drained the coolant. Having a manifold stud insertion tool is handy to have for replacing the studs.

[dalej]

Jon, thats a good thought. When you loosen the manifold bolts (5) you can lift the manifold straight up and remove it. Then I tightened the ones (2) that I could see were going to turn out. Then once the stud was tight enough the tap would start to move and then I just reversed them and removed them. You do not want to remove any of the studs unless you drain the block of anti-freeze.

When replacing the manifold you want to make sure that the manifold is just touching the stops and not resting on them or else you can tighten them and not have the manifold flat against the head. Torque to #65.

I did notice the temps were different from each side.

[Jerry Winchester]

I thought the stud intallation tool was two nuts jammed together?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

That works, but I saw a tool Snap On had and it was as slick as can be. Since the studs are sealing against coolant leakage this is an area I would want the tightness of the studs to be correct.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I thought the stud intallation tool was two nuts jammed together?

I would usually be able to think of something funny about your remark, but having spread 20 yds. of MULCH today I'm too tired. Anyway I will not be inserting studs tonight:eek: especially with nuts jammed together:rolleyes:

[dalej]

Here is the finished exaust that I was working on.

Photo #1 is the original exaust.
Photo #2 is the finished exaust from 10 feet
Photo #3 zoomed in.
Photo #4 underneath.

[garyde]

Dale, that's very cool! Nice work.

[truk4u]

Dale,

Looks great, how much of the work did you make Jan do?;)

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Looks real fine Dale!:D

What made you stop at three ports?

Hope your ex flo is not impeded by all those bends!:eek:

[rfoster]

Dale: I am impressed with your creative skills, I thought you just took pictures he he. Looks great, I now know where to go in the future for our next purchase of stainless toliet brushes.:cool:

[dalej]

Jim, I figured that a 5 inch exhaust tube, which I have, equals 19.625 sq. inches of exhaust. It takes 3, 3 inch tubes at 7.065 each, 21.195 total to supply the correct amount, thus 3 was the number to go with.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

My comment was directed toward the sharp and reverse bends. In this application it probably doesn't matter.
Just chitter chatter.

[dalej]

I have these old gas springs laying around so I came up with this idea. I never did like the way our engine bay doors had stops that wouldn't hold in the wind. Neither did I like that I couldn't see if the doors were left open.

I made brackets to mount the gas springs. The doors stay closed until I open them and they stay open until I close them. It works really good.

Photo #1, old style stops
Photo #2 gas spring installed
Photo #3 shows how far the door opens, so I can see them from my mirrors.

[win42]

Dale: I'm going to have to get you to our shop in Fremont. Just visiting the SS scrap bin you'll be like a kid in a candy store. Again I'm sorry to bail out on you by buying a newer coach. We had a great 10 years with the Royale. At our age it was a matter of change now or never. I'll still enjoy your projects as they unfold. As Joe says, your getting close to the end of your updates where everything that matters will be replaced. I'm still your SS buddy.

[dalej]

Hey Harry, nice to have you back in cyber-space! :o

[dalej]

Well after I noticed my steering boot need replaced, Thanks Peter. I decided to clean the front axle of all the grease and dirt since I had removed the tires. Also my front brakes were grabbing in reverse, making vibration and noise. So wanted to replace them. Then noticed the paint peeling from the wheel skirts, so I decided to just remove the paint and just use ArmorAll to keep them shinny.

I had Jan make me my steering boot. I had her put in a zipper to make for an easy install.

Also when I was putting the drums back on I had noticed some excessive play in the steering. I remember Harry talking about it. I tightened the adjustment screw one half turn, now it seems better, I can't wait to do a test drive. :)

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Dale, Real nice job on the zippered boot. What material did you use for them?

How did you remove the paint from the wheel well skirt?

Your post: "what is this" you said you were changing the pads! I thought you had disc brakes and was trying to figure out the components in the photos and couldn't. Also didn't think prior to your statment that 86 vintage had disc brakes. Now that you made this post I see you have drumb brakes and called the brake shoes pads:eek: now I get it!

How are your King Pins? tight or loose? Are they original?

[rfoster]

Dale: How cool is that? Prevost charged me 80 lewbucks for a peice of crap with no zipper. Jan is Wonder Woman now - she should post her price for zipper boot on the For Sale Forum and knock some poor french dude out of selling that piece of crap out of business. That appears to be a better mouse trap for sure. Congrats on the creativity.:cool:

[dalej]

Jim,

It was marine grade canvas.

I used Zip Strip original to get the paint off the skirts (still working on this).

King pins looked good along with the other moving parts. Like I said the steering worm gear was a bit loose.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Check this guy out.

First it's custom exhaust tips and now hes got every one of us drueling over a custom steering shaft boot, with zipper.

Thats what I'm talking about.

Dale I think I can take the liberty of speeking for EVERYONE in the group:
May we all have one for Christmas please;)

MPD continues.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Dale, When you had the drums off to check the brakes did you find anything worn or oily to contribute to your brake problems?????

Did you do anything in the way of maintenance to the bearings and seal??

[win42]

Dale: I think Jim C is scheming on buying your coach with all the questions.
Nice job on the boot. The mech. that did my front end alignment also tightened the steering box adjustment. He did a quarter turn on mine and stated max you should do is 1/2 turn maximum at any one time. More could cause damage to the gears. Sounded like good advice from a reliable source. Are you home from Nashville yet?