How to get towing most economically

[Ray Davis]

So, I've spent a ton of Lew bucks getting the bus working and hopefully ready for the trip to Santa Fe. I'd really like to have the ability to tow a vehicle, since I'll be continuing on for two more weeks from the rally, through Texas and back to CA. But, because of the prior expenses, I'd like to do this as cheaply as I can, but still be safe.

I'm looking for options. I have a 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid that I want to tow. I think that Ken and Ellen have mentioned that they tow that same vehicle, (other than a small issue with their rear tire?)

Anyway, I went down to a local large RV part chain here, and got a quote for stuff to get towing, which ran about $3000. More than I'm able to spend right now.

So, one thing to mention the bus came with a Roadmaster Blackhawk tow bar already. It's big, ugly and heavy, but I think it's servicable, and would save me having to purchase a new tow bar now. (I had been wanting to get a newer lighter Blue Ox unit)

It seems that the RoadMaster bracket would be about $370 on the internet, but mounting looks a bit complicated.

So, it seems if nothing else, I should be able to get a bracket and get it installed for perhaps under $500?

What about braking system? I hear several people say they don't use them on smaller cars (the Honda Civic is probably in that category). But, I assume I'm going to have to at least wire up lights and stuff. I've wired trailers for towing before, but never a vehicle. Anything "fancy" to do there? I believe the bus and the towbar are already for that, and the wiring harness is already on the towbar.


So, I'm curious if anyone has suggestions as to the best way to get going on a budget. Is it silly to try to get a RoadMaster tow bracket on my vehicle, if ultimately I'd rather get a Blue Ox towbar? Are the brackets usable with different towbars, i.e. are the hookups on the various towbars standard, or are they matched towbar to bracket only?

Help appreciated.

Thanks,
ray

[MangoMike]

Ray,

I'm towing a Honda Element (the toaster).

I've been very happy with Roadmaster. Use the Falcon 2 All Terrain towbar with the MX series brackets. Which are nice because when not in use they are almost invisible. You do not need the ugly cross brace that is shipped with the towbar if you have the MX brackets. I paid the local gas station to attach the brackets to my Honda (about $150) and I think the towbar and brackets were $900. Mango

http://www.roadmasterinc.com/img_x/mx_bracket2.jpg

[MangoMike]

Ray,

This is the easiest answer for lighting. And only $19.00. Unfortunately no Bling - non LED. ;)

http://www.rvtoyoutlet.com/images/products/7516.jpg

http://www.rvtoyoutlet.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=RV&Product_Code=7516&Category_Code=

Mike

[Ray Davis]

Thanks Mike,

Here's the unit I have http://www.roadmaster-tow-bars.com/blackhawk.html

So, it has this big back cross brace. Are you saying I won't need that if I get an MX brace? It seems that the only brace listed for the Honda Civic Hybrid is the EZ model.

http://search.cartserver.com/search/search.cgi?bool=AND&category=brackets&maxhits=50&keywords_1=HONDA&cartid=s-4078&keywords_2=CIVIC&GO=GO%21

Do you have external braking on yours?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ray, If you have the towbar, regardless of how ugly or heavy it seems to you you only need to get the part that you add to the car to mount the towbar.

I would suggest you contact Roadmaster and let them know the specifics of what you have and have them suggest what else you need to have to tow.

It will not be very expensive and it is likely that you could probably mount it yourself. Later on you can buy another tow bar if it suits you, but I would spend the money on LEDs instead.

The heavier and uglier the towbar the more likely it is suitable for any size or weight vehicle. You do not need to add any braking package with such a light car, although some states may have laws that require them. We towed a 3600 pound Jeep Grand Cherokee and my Dodge Ram 1500 without any supplemental braking. Only when we went to the 6700 pound Hummer did I consider braking to be a necessity.

Unless you intend to keep your tow car for a very long period of time the lights Mike suggests are worth considering. On the vehicles I tow or towed I had to get into the factory harness and add diodes for the lighting to work off the bus and that was a bit of a project.

[Denny]

My toad is a Jeep Wrangler and I have towed it with my Foretravel 320 both with and without extra brakes and did not notice any difference in stopping ability. However, most states require auxiliary braking for anything towed and the weight requirement for addditional braking on the towed trailer (car) can be a low as a 1,000 lbs. In Ohio where I live I believe it is 1,500 lbs.

In my conservative way of thinging, big expensive motorcoaches mean high dollar lawsuits if you are involved in an accident and do not have the braking on your towed vehicle. I feel an attorney would have a great time in court with this situation.

Now that I have a Prevost, I would never consider towing without an auxiliary braking system on the Jeep even though it probably is not necessary. I would rather error on the side of conservativism than take a chance in court without the braking system on the toad.

We all know that we are billionaires to afford a bus!

FWIW, I use the Brakemaster by Roadmaster.

Denny

[Just Plain Jeff]

We've got the Falcon towbar that resides on the back of the camper when not using it. That way, the only thing that's on the toad is a couple of brackets which are secured to the frame of it.

We ran wires from the commercial metal plug bracket on the toad as a separate circuit to extra bulbs in the back lights, no diodes, easy stuff.

We have found that taking off the parking brake is a real help in towing, although there are others here who seem to disagree with that idea.

So, everyone has their own ideas, all equally valid.

[MangoMike]

Ray,

I don't use a braking system, yet.

Jon is right. Contact Roadmaster and see what they recommend with your towbar. If your lucky maybe the MX bracket is available.

Mike

[matsprt]

Ray,

I have a Roadmaster Sterling. I, like you it sounds, did not like the heavy ugly crossbar. Roadmaster started a couple of years ago to make the adapter kits for allowing their tow bars to hook up to Blu Ox base plates. Nice kit, just screws onto the tow bar ends. You can view it here:

http://www.roadmaster-tow-bars.com/bracket_adapters.html ("http://www.roadmaster-tow-bars.com/bracket_adapters.html")

I needed adapter kit # T31 from Roadmaster. Works great. I tow a Honda CRV with no problems. I do not use a supplemental braking system. If I get a larger towed I would go with a braking system with a breakaway feature.

Michael
SoCal SSD/MPD

[Ray Davis]

Michael, thanks for the info on the adapters. I'm going to look into that. I wasn't thrilled with the look of the Roadmaster brackets, but this might be the way to go.

[rfoster]

Ray: FWIW - a site available compliments of the towing industry that list ads to buy or sell used towing componets. Maybe something on there that will fit the budget.:cool:
http://www.hitchtrader.com/

[win42]

Ray: You received good advice above. Call roadmaster and order the kit for your car to the Roadmaster bar. Theres 10 hitch installers within 5 miles of your house that will install the kit. Forget about the bar being ugly, You want to see ugly stand back and look at your Honda, now thats ugly. Mango has the correct solution to the lights. Take them with you to the hitch guys and let them hook them up for you. UHAUL in our area has a hitch shop that does outside work. Forget the brake for the small car on this trip.
Thats my 2 cents worth.
H

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon, spend your money on LEDs instead? Hmmmmm. Ray, We also pull a half ton Ram P.U. it weighs 6200 dry, probably closer to 7000 with cap and loaded up. No brakes, built the tow bar and the brackets for the front of it myself and magnetic tail lights out back. When we priced all this stuff it seemed a little steep for what it is. We are however giving up 700 for a driveshaft we can disengage from the cab instead of disconnecting it at the rear-end. We also have a dolly to pull a Taurus on shorter trips or when needed. No brakes there either.

[Jerry Winchester]

Ray,

You should just go with the South Texas tow bar set up. The most recent version included a nylon strap run thru a 5' piece of 2 3/8" tubing which is attached to the respective bumpers.

It should be noted that this setup requires a driver for the toad, but saves on the external brake system costs.

In other news, we tow the H2 with a Roadmaster Falcon All-Terrain tow bar and a Silent Partner brake system (that I am mostly unimpressed with). I can't tell much difference with or without the brake system unlike when I am towing my Featherlight trailer loaded with the trailer brakes. Big impact there.

[Ray Davis]

Interesting comment about the Silent Partner brake system. I had been reading a long thread on rv.net regarding braking systems, and most people raved about the SMI systems. Perhaps there is some adjustment necessary?

If anyone else is interested in braking systems, here's a link to rv.net thread which lists most of the available systems and their operating characteristics. Interesting read:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/13200019.cfm

[Ray Davis]

Thanks all for the comments. Lot's of good ideas, and it seems that if I forego braking for the moment, I can get hooked up reasonably.

Ray

[Jerry Winchester]

Ray,

You are of course right about the Silent Partner. It does need to be adjusted but the yokel that installed it knew little more about it than I did. I have yet to take it back over there and will most likely call the SMI folks (very easy to talk to on the phone) and let them walk me thru recalibrating it.

It got good marks when I researched it, so that was why I bought it. I just can't tell how well it works pulling a relatively small vehicle like the H3.

[Ray Davis]

Jerry, I'd be interested to hear your final outcome on the SMI. It was one of the units I was considering.

So, strangely enough I just called Blue Ox, who told me there was no baseplate for my Honda Civic Hybrid. Indeed their website had a civic hybrid baseplate, but indicated "No CVT". As far as I know, all the hybrids were CVT. They suggested I contact Remco Towing, and their phone system indicated that Honda Civic Hybrids were non-towable.

From reading other threads, I know that Ken and Ellen have indicated they were towing a Honda Civic (I thought it was a hybrid), with a Blue Ox baseplate. Hmm. Has something changed?

[Coloradobus]

For Ford, the Escape Hybrid 4X4, is towable per the owners manual.

[ken&ellen]

Yes we tow the Honda Hybrid. We purchased the base plate from Blue Ox and we towed the car all over the East Coast. Unfortunately we had a rear wheel bearing seize and distroyed the tire & wheel. American Honda claimed that we must have had the emergency brake on....which would have damaged both wheels..! Then they said we should have been using a tow dolly.....hey...wouldn't the rear wheel still be on the ground? We drive the Honda daily without incident and still tow it from time to time. Ellen purchase a Jeep Liberty that was the same color as the Prevost. Ken

[Jon Wehrenberg]

"American Honda claimed that we must have had the emergency brake on....which would have damaged both wheels..! "

I can attest to that. I can also say that it only takes about 1000 feet to destroy the tires.

[rmboies]

Michael, thanks for the info on the adapters. I'm going to look into that. I wasn't thrilled with the look of the Roadmaster brackets, but this might be the way to go.

Ray, we have the Roadmaster tow system for our coach as well. One of the nice features is that if you purchase a new tow vehicle, the hitch is very adaptable. You can often times use the same car brackets just remove and re-mount on the new car. The main hitch folds up out of the way on your coach. Bob--00 used to sell and install roadmaster hitches in one of his previous business lives:rolleyes: and highly recommends them. He does not feel that anything under 5000lbs requires additional breaks. Bob's 2 cents worth with me typing:D

Bob-00 and Debi the typer

[Ray Davis]

Thanks for the info. Well, because I've got the Roadmaster towbar, that would probably be the easiest route to get going. I think I'll probably just order the tow bracket, and see if I can install it myself.

Only thing that kinda scares me about towing without braking is IF anything does happen, the chance of legal issues is probably much more likely. But, it sure seems that from what I read here about 1/2 of the people don't have supplemental braking. I've tried to find the weight of my Honda, but it's not listed anywhere that I can find.

[matsprt]

Ray,

Several web sites show Honda Civic Hybrid's at around 2700 lbs curb weight.
In comparison my 05 CRV is 3300 lbs. The rules for requiring or not requiring supplemental braking systems vary widely by state . There are several that use the ratio of < 10% towed to towing vehicle weight. So if your towed is less than 10% of you towing vehicle weight you good. Some states work off the weight of the towed vehicle. Some off stopping distance from a preset speed...it goes on and on.

.....California it appears is a stopping distance state. At least after a quick look through the VC it appears that way. It would take a lot more than 10 minutes of research to be sure but suffice it to say that I don't think you will have a problem.

As ugly a picture as this may conjure up, it would be like a palm frond in a hurricane....the bus would not even notice that car flapping around back there.

Michael

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Ray, Being a tractor-trailer owner operator gov. regulation is irritating at best. I have been harrased by DOT for so many things so many times I have developed an additude. Here is my advice on this issue both saftey and legality in regards to pulling a small toad. Supplemental braking is defined by the DOT in a broad fashion and therefor can be achieved In a very simple manner. Take a drawer attatch some slides to the bottom place it on the floor of the toad at the brake with a large rock in it and a return spring attatched to the seat:eek: In a hard stop the drawer slides forward. Does this work well, depends on how much experimenting you do with how much weight you put in the drawer and the stiffness of the return spring and so on but, probably not. However this WILL satisfy regulations, screw them. As far as the important issue here, saftey, very simple. Take it easy, be carful, if you drive easy you wont even know its back there. Has eneyone ever seen a saftey inspection being preformed buy a cop on an R-V, I have not. Mabye after a reck. If involved in an accident the device I have just described will allow you to answer Yes to the all important question of do you have a braking device from both the law and your insurance agent! HAPPY MOTORING.

[Denny]

Even though I think this was said tongue-in-cheek, Joe is correct on this issue. (I have a previous post on this same issue). No matter how simple, as in the least cost, we need supplemental braking on our toads just to meet the law and to save our butts if the situation arises.

Last Thursday my wife and I were on our way to KY. to visit our daughter and we were stopped by an Ohio State Trooper on I 71. This female cop was young, drop dead gorgeous and would qualify as a Corona Cop at Mango Mikes. The first words out of her mouth were &quot;who's on the bus?&quot; She then asked for my registration and drivers license and then said 'I'll tell you why I stopped you after I see them.&quot; My immediate thought was I was stopped because the star struck cop was hoping a super star was on the bus and was disappointed when I told her just my wife and I.

I received a written warning for failure to signal a lane change. I had my CB on and knew this officer was in the area for 5 miles before I reached the spot where she was sitting in the median. She pulled out immediately upon my passing her and started to follow me. When I changed lanes the lights went on. I am as anal about turn signals and obeying the laws on the road as some of you are about polishing your wheel holes and copper and I know I signaled my lane change particularly since she was following me.

She had to have a reason to pull me over to meet the star on the bus and when the star was unknown me she issued a warning to cover herself. At this point she could have easily checked for supplemental braking on my Jeep, which I have.

Do we need it with a Prevost? I doubt it. But aren't we stepping over dollars to save pennies if we don't have it? I think the cost of the least expensive brake system is good insurance to protect us from the law, court, etc.

FWIW

Denny

[MangoMike]

Denny,

Knowing how creative Joe is I'm sure it wasn't tongue in cheek. Glad you dodged the bullet but at least you had a Babe trooper stop you instead of a Lewcop.

Mango

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I wish Ohio would annex Tennessee if a cop pulls you over for failure to signal a lane change there.

Down here the use of turn signals is seen as a sign of weakness. And those few (who probably moved here from Michigan or somewhere) who do signal it is usually after the fact, as in to say I just made a turn.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Yo Mango, once just for kicks. When we still had a coachman. I had my nephew get in the toad, an 04 HEMI Ram, while in tow, without the driveshaft disconnected. I made him sit on his hands so he didnt get the urge to steer. At 60mph I kicked the camper into neutral and he went to drive and pushed me down the road at speeds of 70+ until we both had a sufficiant laugh. Lets see that on a Dodge commercial! Trust me now? Hmmmm. Now that Im thinking about it I wonder if I can push the bus that way? What, did you say road service? We dont need no stinking road service!

[lewpopp]

Does your nephew do all of the crazy things you think up?

Explain just exactly what you were trying to prove. I'm confused.

Does a &quot;HEMI&quot; stop as fast as they say they jump. By the way. Don't most cars have HEMI'S?

How old was uour nephew? To young to resist, huh?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Hello Lew. Good question about my nephew, might be able to utilize him more. It was mostly a curiosity thing. It does stop as well as it jumps, accept when in tow, then it just pushes. NO most cars arent and where exactly is this age threshold? Do you think it will push the bus? Oh ya, he is 30something.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I know of a Prevost owner returning from FL with his brand new Vantare that cut his fuel a little close. He pulled off the interstate to get fuel, but because he misjudged he ran out just as he got across the highway at the end of the exit ramp. He ended up blocking all the lanes of traffic.

He was towing a Dodge Ram pickup and he had a friend with him, so they finally figured out two things for all reading this to learn. First, a Dodge Ram pickup with 4 wheel drive can push a stalled H3 to the side of the highway. One of the guys steered the Prevost, and the other drove the pickup.

The second lesson is that it is a pain in the a$$ to restart a Series 60 if you have run it out of fuel.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Thank you Jon. What did you think of my idea for the braking device. Ya dont have to use a rock, you can use some bar bell weights instead but I know you knew that! Ya know CATERPILLER has primer pumps. When you run them out you just pump them up an they restart absolutly normally. When servicing it I never put dirty fuel in the filters as to risk dirt getting in. Screw them on dry and pump them up. Always wondered why others dont do this.

HAPPY LABORDAY EVERYBODY

[MangoMike]

So Jon would you venture to say that running the fuel tanks dry is a worse sin than empty water tanks?

MM

[Joe Cannarozzi]

O/K Lew now ya got me thinkin. What if someone could figure out how to take one of these full size toads most of us pull and rig it to be used for a pony motor with a remote start and a few other such components. Sure would be nice ta have a little extra push every now and then. Dodge says it can pull 11000lb. It can certianly PUSH the same. Thats about 25% of our total gross weight. What do you think?

I think Ill post this idea at the virtual coach thread:cool:


You guys can compete for all the BLING in china. Nothing would be better than being able to be the first one to the top of the mountian! Especially with a bunch of us in route someware and all the 60series boys talking crap!

[MangoMike]

Now Joe, if yoiu really want to get serious about getting up that mountain.

127

MM

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Notice the 1 degree pitch on the top engine. This is to eliminate the nessessity for wings:D I like it

[Jon Wehrenberg]

&quot;Ya know CATERPILLER has primer pumps. When you run them out you just pump them up an they restart absolutly normally. When servicing it I never put dirty fuel in the filters as to risk dirt getting in. Screw them on dry and pump them up. Always wondered why others dont do this.&quot;

OK Joe. Go lay down and see if Deb can take your temperature. I think you might be delerious.

First, You ain't supposed to run them out of fuel. It's on page one of Diesels for Dummies. Second, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it suggests putting dirty fuel in the filter is not unusual. I was always of the opinion the reason for changing fuel filters was to get rid of dirt.

And somewhere else you want to have the toad push the coach?

And Mike....running out of fuel tops running out of water. In fact running out of fuel is only second to running out of oil or coolant.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

To have dirty fuel on the wrong side of the filter is not normal. When you are servicing filters and you prime them to put them on, you cant be absolutly for certian that theres no contaminants in the fuel that your pouring in that filter. Where are you getting the fuel from? Is the container absolutly clean? When I service that motor Im able to prime the filters with the prime pump and thus filling the filter with fuel that has gone THROUGH the filter element like it is supposto. Thats what I was refering to.

Riddle: Two dummies run out of fuel. One with a Detroit, One with a Cat. Who gets restarted without removing the filters or the use of eather?

Accept for trying to reasure Ray he could pull a small car with no brakes the rest of the stuff was entertainment, mostly, there might have been a touch of reality there.

[Ray Davis]

Well, the original topic on this thread was getting towing most economically. I want to report that I've just returned from almost 3500 miles, towing my Honda without any major issue.

I will mention one thing, however. I would NOT suggest getting the magnetic lights. Although it made hookup really simple, the cables from the bus to the back lights beat the paint in several places on my car to a scratched up mess. After the first day, Art helped me route the cables inside the car (for the most part), which helped, and I tried putting a soft rag around the cable where it had to be exposed. But, that still didn't work.

I think I will try to do what Kevin suggested, and that is embeded the lightbulbs somewhere in my current light socket area. In that way I don't have to re-wire for the braking system (which wants a relay inline if I'm wiring direct to the real lights)

So, other than the scratching from the wires, everything went extremely well, and it was certainly worth it to have a tow vehicle over the three weeks Kathy and I were on the road!

Thanks for all the advice.

Ray

[Kevin Erion]

Ray, Thanks for the plug, I can't take the credit for that idea. I think if you look back Jon or someone else came up with the separate light bulb deal.
Kevin

[Orren Zook]

I think I will try to do what Kevin suggested, and that is embeded the lightbulbs somewhere in my current light socket area. In that way I don't have to re-wire for the braking system (which wants a relay inline if I'm wiring direct to the real lights)

Someone makes a wiring kit that you can buy that contains the stop/tail light sockets - you drill holes in the back side of your toad light housing and plug the socked into the hole, run the wires to your bus cable.... a very easy simple installation. I'll get the name of supplier for you in the morning.

[MangoMike]

Whoa satellite boy,

I just got defend the magnetic lights (with a tip of the hat to BOB-00). I've put 18,000 miles with them on the Toaster w/ no scratching. However, I run them thru the engine compartment, directly out to the drivers door, inside the cab and out the sunroof in the back. No problemo.

MM

[rmboies]

Whoa satellite boy,
I just got defend the magnetic lights (with a tip of the hat to BOB-00). I've put 18,000 miles with them on the Toaster w/ no scratching. However, I run them thru the engine compartment, directly out to the drivers door, inside the cab and out the sunroof in the back. No problemo.
MM

Mango, have you been to the farm recently? I see you used the word &quot;Whoa&quot; with the satellite boy? :D

We have towed two PT Cruisers(one at a time of course) with our previous coaches and the with our present coach and the last one. We have never had a scratch issue using the magnetic lights. However, we do run the light wiring through the engine compartment, inside the car/SUV, and out through the back of the windows or hatch. Very little wire is exposed and we have never had an issue. Sorry to hear that you had a problem with yours!

Debi and BOB-00 who tips his go-kart hat back to you Mike:p
2000 Vantare XL, 2005 Jeep Cherokee
Landrum, SC

[truk4u]

Wiring kit by Blue Ox, you can get it through camping world or Blue Ox direct.

[Ray Davis]

Now, now. No offense intended, I'm just relaying my results. I did after day-one route the wires through engine into the car. But where I had issues was in two places:

1. Coming out the back door, looping around onto the trunk where the lights were. There's an 8 inch section that I tried everything including duct tape to keep it from flapping.

2. Between the two lights (they were joined together by 2 foot section of wire), I tried folding this down under the trunk lid, but they still flapped somewhat.

Admittedly I may have had better results if I were able to route the wires from the backseat straight through into the trunk and up. But given the rush I was in to get going, I wasn't able to try that. The darn hybrid has the batteries hidden back there somewhere, and I wasn't able to pull up the back seat to get the connector through there. That would have helped a lot.

I'm sure that cars with a back hatch, instead of a 4-door like mine would have worked better. A lot less exposed wire.

I'm hopeful that it will all buff out anyway. The car is so darn dirty from towing, it's hard to tell! :D

Ray

[ken&ellen]

I am with Mango....no scratches on our Jeep Liberty and those lights are mounted high for better visibility. Plus when my Brake Buddy kicks in I have double the light output. At night I can see them in the back up camera....very bright!:p If only they were LED's? Ken