Why to have your top end looked at!

[Kevin Erion]

This is my 2nd bus and the 2nd top end tune up. On both buses I have had to replace 3 roller rockers due to what looks like the surface starting to fail. On this bus one of the cam lopes also started to fail. So in my opinion the top end should be looked at somewhere between 100,000 to 120,000 miles. It would have been a lot less $ if I didn't need to replace the cam.
Ray Davis is kind enough to post these pictures.

[Ray Davis]

Here are Kevin's pictures ...

5895

5893

5894

5892

[sawdust_128]

Were there any symptoms that made you check for something?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Kevin,

I experienced that on a plane engine once.

I used to do oil analysis every oil change which I was doing at 35 hours. They always came back normal and there were no trends such as a rise in any of the elements.

That galling shown on the rollers happens almost instantly and is attributed to lack of lubrication. I'm not sure anyone could have seen that or any signs it was about to occur until after the fact.

At least that was the case with the plane engine.

[lonesome george]

Kevin, thanks for the post and sharing the ugly truth, sorry your cam got wiped out.

I believe the Detriot service manual states the first valve adjustment should be done at 60K, mine is about at that mileage, so the time has come, it looks like a pain to do in an XL. Most Diesel mechanics I've talked to say the valve train in a Series 60 should be maintained every 100k.

I have seen cams go flat in new engines that were still on a dyno, it can happen in a hurry.

[Kevin Erion]

This is only my opinion and the fact that 2 for 2 is 100%, not good odds.
I think there is a problem with these rollers and if you don't catch it soon enough, the pictures tell what happens next.
I did buy all my parts from United Engines and they are the best!

[rfoster]

Kevin, the outside and bottom exterior of your engine looked slicker & cleaner than those parts. Sorry to see and hear of your problem-

What where the synptoms that prompted you to tear into it?.

[James]

We just had the valves done at around 64,000 miles by Pacific Power. The tech stated that everything looked good. He did find a jake brake connection that was loose and fixed that.

He also recommend that the valves be looked at every 50K to 60K. Kind of a pain to take apart the closet and then put it back.

Has anyone ever modified the closet step on an XLVII to allow the valve cover to be removed without having to take the closet apart?

[Kevin Erion]

There was no reason other than preventive maintanance to take a look and adjust the valves. I asked my mechanic what the symptoms would be if the cam started to wear more and the answer was rough idle, power loss and lower fuel milage. He also said that with the computer, it is hard to notice this at idle because it will compensate for the cylinder starting to fail by increasing the idle speed to keep it at the preset idle.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Kevin......correct me if I am wrong. In fact use caps if I am misreading this because a lot of guys are going to be rushing to DD as a result of your post.

Your problem was not caused by valves out of adjustment. It was only noticed as a result of having the valves adjusted.

Going further, an engine can have its valves adjusted and before the next oil change this problem can show up. This is not an adjustment issue, but a lubrication issue.

Correct??????

[Kevin Erion]

Jon,
I DON'T believe this is an adjustment problem, I also DON'T believe it is a lubrication problem!
I looked at the valves ONLY as a PM. By doing this you get the only chance to take a look at things, I by no way am recommending that you tear down the motor just for the fun of it.
It is my opinion that Detroit Diesel has a problem with this area of the motor, like I said earlier, 2 for 2. I also have no idea how long the motor would have run before the cam would wear enough to effect the operation of the motor. I just feel better knowing this was done and I will do it again at 220,000 miles, God willing the economy holds up and I still have this bus!

[sawdust_128]

Kevin:

Did you get any kind of a response from United that they agree or disagree with your opinion on a Detroit issue?

[Kenneth Brewer]

Your problem was not caused by valves out of adjustment. It was only noticed as a result of having the valves adjusted.

Going further, an engine can have its valves adjusted and before the next oil change this problem can show up. This is not an adjustment issue, but a lubrication issue.

Jon is correct on this. This is a loss of lubrication or faulty rollers (heat treatment) - improper hardening. I wonder if the DDEC records loss of oil pressure beyond a time threshhold?

[Kenneth Brewer]

"Your problem was not caused by valves out of adjustment. It was only noticed as a result of having the valves adjusted.

Going further, an engine can have its valves adjusted and before the next oil change this problem can show up. This is not an adjustment issue, but a lubrication issue."

Jon is correct on this. This is a loss of lubrication or faulty rollers (heat treatment) - improper hardening. I wonder if the DDEC records loss of oil pressure beyond a time threshhold?[/QUOTE]

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I think Ken probably has it correct as being a hardening issue, but I will still stand by the fact that lubrication contributes.

If this was common the trucking industry would be all over this. But they run their trucks so long and so often the mating surfaces between the rollers and the lobes always have a film of lubrication between them. We who own motorhomes let them sit for long periods and the first start-up after that long period of inactivity is the problem. Any film of protective lubrication has probably drained down.

Once metal starts galling like that there is no cure, including lots of lube, and the rate of damage actually accelerates.

If properly hardened the resistance to that damage may be sufficient to mitigate the dry start up. Hats off to Ken for pointing that out.

[Kevin Erion]

I also agree with both Jon and Ken, but I am going with Ken's opinion that the hard face on the roller is not so good. Then with Jon's statement that after long periods of time between the motor running all the oil has drained off the parts and will magnify the problem of bad surface hardening of the roller!
Just FYI, last time when I did this to my 99, within 30 miles of us I found 110 roller rocker just for that model engine between 2 Detroit shops. Maybe that also leads me to believe there might be a problem with the part and not just us RV guys!

[hhoppe]

Kevin: You have the scored rollers why not send them out for a Rockwell hardness test. There is data showing what hardness they should be available somewhere. I tend to go with our intermitten use of our rigs causing these and a host of other problems. Possibly there may be an oil additive that will provide a coating on parts after the oil drains back into the pan. STP for one comes to mind.

[HarborBus]

I'm not as well informed on these kinds of mechanical issues and I don't know what everyone else thinks, but I view this as a REAL BIG problem with the Detroit diesel. Maybe this is one of those dirty little secrets that no one at Detroit will readily admit to or even discuss. I'm diaapponted and have lost some of that warm and fuzzy feeling I had about the bus:mad:. Our coach has just under 50K on it so I guess I'll be tearing up the bedroom and having the valves adjusted and the top end checked ASAP.

[garyde]

Its all speculation at this point. It would be nice to have Detroit comment. i have a very good Detroit Service center in Ventura. I will call them tomorrow and see what they know.

[LarryB]

Many of you may remember my "Check Eng. Lite" & "Stop Eng. Lite" issues this summer. This occurred after a 'Valve Adjustment and "tune up" at Pacific Power. When I limped back to them with the warning lites they found no active codes and wanted to re-check the valve adjustment. The rest of the story-----while checking the valves they found a couple of exhaust valves being held slightly open not by their adjustment but by the pistons on the jake brake head. Two pistons in the one of the heads looked like the pix Kevin posted----lack of lube or--?

[mikedee]

Mines going in soon, dropping a valve due to a bad rocker is an expensive problem.

The DD shop in Vegas say's they can due my Royale without going into the coach? Does this sound correct ? I had them replace a starter and I was impressed with the mechanic and shop.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I hope every POG member is not on the phone making appointments with their DD folks.

Kevin's problem was serious and did require attention. But I would doubt that the problem is across the board. Detroit engines are used in about 30 to 35% of the trucks out there and if the problem is as widespread as this group seems to be making it it would not be a dirty little secret.

That problem does not occur gradually over time. Trust me.

When damage of that nature begins it starts very small, and its progress to the level shown and beyond that happens very fast, such as between oil changes. Once it begins, no matter how small the problem is when first detected it requires the exact same repair. You cannot just remove a bad roller or repolish a cam lobe and be done.

I may have the problem right now. I may not have the problem. Regardless of which I am going to drive my bus until something tells me I have a problem. It may be a loss of power, or it may be metal detected in my oil filters. But in the meantime the sky is not falling.

[Kenneth Brewer]

I agree with Jon. One method to check on this is an oil sample lab test. Any authorized diesel shop will have the sample containers, which are then mailed to the labs, pre-labeled. Pretty simple to do. It should be readily determined if this sort of problem has begun, along with most other issues than can occur such as blow-by from worn piston rings, coolant leaking into the crankcase from above, fuel, etc. I would send one of the filters along to the same place if they will take it (I don't know if this can be done).

And as Jon says, and DD either claims or suggests, there are an awful lot of DDs on the road. There is a reason. There have been no engines produced by anyone that have never suffered a failure/problem, however rare, I am positive, and certainly not with the numbers that DD, Cat, Cummins, and many others have produced.

[garyde]

I spoke with Gem Services in Ventura(Detroit Dealer) regarding the rockers and cams. He confirmed the RV Engines need to be run more often, once a month, 15 miles or so. Also, Dave said some scratching is tolerable. No special oils or treatment will avert or help.
He also recommended having it looked at at 100,000 miles. According to them, if you hear something, it's probably too late .

[Ray Davis]

That's good to know. I guess I'm going to have to get out to the storage site more often, and take the coach for a ride every few weeks.

[James]

I have to leave the bus stored inside (plugged in) for up to two months in the winter without takeing it outside and getting the engine up to operating temperature.

Although I am unable to drive it during this time I could have someone start it once a week and get the oil pressure up and then shut down.

Would it be better to start the coach up every week for a couple of minutes and then shut down without getting the engine to operating temperature or would that be more harm than waiting a couple of months to drive it?

[Coloradobus]

Taking the coach out for a spin every couple of weeks, doesn't sound like a hardship to me.

[Kevin Erion]

I took the bus out yesterday for a test spin to make sure the top end made it OK after the surgery. I found a 6% grade for 2 miles on a local toll road, perfect test for both the pull going up and the jakes going down. All seems to be good and the power and smooth feel was also good. And a very good reason to go for a Saturday morning spin around the neighborhood!
I am no expert but my opinion is just starting the motor, even if you let it get to operating temp, which is almost impossible without driving is not a good thing.
What is better, I can't answer that question!

[travelite]

I have to leave the bus stored inside (plugged in) for up to two months in the winter without takeing it outside and getting the engine up to operating temperature.

James, take a look at your Detroit Diesel Series-60 Users Manual. It's pretty clear on what should be done if you intend on storing your bus for up to 30 days, and what you should do if storing for longer than 30 days.

The short answer is to drain you crankcase oil, fill her up, and run the motor for 2 minutes at fast idle, then shut her down. This is good for 30 days. Beyound 30 DD has more extensive directions. IMHO, dumping the oil as described and adding a new set of oil filters should get you to 60 days. I wonder if it's the acids in the used oils along with inactivity which might be contributing to the pitting and scuffing some are seeing?

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

James, don't run the bus without getting it to operating temperature before shut down, period!

If you must do something to minimize the risk of the premature wear Kevin experienced, assuming you don't already have it, switch your engine over to synthetic oil. It has several benefits over mineral oil and will possibly retard the drying of the oil from the moving parts during extended periods of non use.
It has been said about synthetic oil, that engines running with synthetic oil, have had failures in their oil supply and lost all their oil pressure and were still driven to safety only to have no ill effects when that problem was corrected and new/more was oil added.

Synthetic does cost more, but not prohibitively so and it has been proven to excel over regular mineral oil. With it you should also be able to extend your change intervals and bring it closer to the cost you now relate to an oil change.



JIM

[travelite]

The short answer is to drain you crankcase oil, fill her up, and run the motor for 2 minutes at fast idle, then shut her down.

I suppose you could do all the above with a hot motor, but the DD manual actually specs doing it cold.

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[garyde]

James, take a look at your Detroit Diesel Series-60 Users Manual. It's pretty clear on what should be done if you intend on storing your bus for up to 30 days, and what you should do if storing for longer than 30 days.

The short answer is to drain you crankcase oil, fill her up, and run the motor for 2 minutes at fast idle, then shut her down. This is good for 30 days. Beyound 30 DD has more extensive directions. IMHO, dumping the oil as described and adding a new set of oil filters should get you to 60 days. I wonder if it's the acids in the used oils along with inactivity which might be contributing to the pitting and scuffing some are seeing?

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

If this is the case, most of us are not doing it. Except for winterizing my boat, this procedure is rarely done by any of us.

[merle&louise]

James, don't run the bus without getting it to operating temperature before shut down, period!

If you must do something to minimize the risk of the premature wear Kevin experienced, assuming you don't already have it, switch your engine over to synthetic oil. It has several benefits over mineral oil and will possibly retard the drying of the oil from the moving parts during extended periods of non use.
It has been said about synthetic oil, that engines running with synthetic oil, have had failures in their oil supply and lost all their oil pressure and were still driven to safety only to have no ill effects when that problem was corrected and new/more was oil added.

Synthetic does cost more, but not prohibitively so and it has been proven to excel over regular mineral oil. With it you should also be able to extend your change intervals and bring it closer to the cost you now relate to an oil change.



JIM


I agree with the use of synthetic oil. I use Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic and have for years. I change my oil every 15,000 miles or 1 year whichever comes first. The oil is very expensive $25/gallon but it is worth it IMO. I also use it in my generator.

Just my .02

[James]

I don't see any mention of 30 days in the Series 60 manual I have. It only talks about changing the oil and filters after "extended storage" and it gives the example "over the winter" without specifying a specific number of days.

In another part of the manual it does recommend removing the batteries if storing it more than 30 days as well as draining the water pump.

I'd love to drive it once a week and get everything up to operating temperature but circumstances don't always allow that. And changing the oil and filters in an inside storage bay is frowned on by the storage facility management.

Too bad there's not another way to keep the top end lubricated. Synthetic oil may help.

[travelite]

From the Detroit Diesel's "EPA07 SERIES 60 ENGINE OPERATOR'S MANUAL", "DDC-SVC-MAN-0006 Copyright © 2009 DETROIT DIESEL CORPORATION".

My 2002 Operator's Manual says the same thing:


ENGINE STORAGE

When an engine is to be stored or removed from operation for a period of time, special precautions should be taken to protect the interior and exterior of the engine, transmission and other parts from rust accumulation and corrosion. The parts requiring attention and the recommended preparations are given below.


Preparing Engine for Storage

It will be necessary to remove all rust or corrosion completely from any exposed part before applying rust preventive compound. Therefore, it is recommended that the engine be processed for storage as soon as possible after removal from operation.

The engine should be stored in a building that is dry and can be heated during the winter months. Moisture-absorbing chemicals are available commercially for use when excessive dampness prevails in the storage area.

Temporary Storage (30 Days or Less)

To protect the engine for a temporary period of time (30 days or less), follow this procedure:

1. With the engine at ambient temperature and cool to the touch, drain engine crankcase oil into a suitable container. Dispose of the oil in an environmentally friendly manner, according to state and/or federal (EPA) recommendations.

2. Fill the crankcase to the proper level with the recommended viscosity and grade of oil.

3. Fill the fuel tank with the recommended grade of fuel oil. Operate the engine for two (2) minutes at 1200 rpm and no load. Do not drain the fuel system or the crankcase after this run.

4. Check the air cleaner and service it, if necessary.

5. If freezing weather is expected during the storage period, check the antifreeze/coolant for required freeze and inhibitor protection. Add antifreeze solution to the cooling system in accordance with Detroit Diesel's recommendations. Refer to How to Select Coolant in this guide.

NOTE:

If an antifreeze solution is not required during storage, flush the cooling system with a good soluble oil (3% – 5% by volume) rust inhibitor to prevent rusting of the outside diameter of the cylinder liners.

6. Clean the exterior of the engine (except electrical parts) with fuel oil and dry with compressed air.

7. Seal all engine openings. The material used must be waterproof, vaporproof and possess sufficient physical strength to resist puncture and damage from the expansion of entrapped air.

An engine prepared in this manner can be returned to service in a short time by removing the seals at the engine openings and by checking the engine coolant, fuel oil, lubricating oil nd transmission oil levels.

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[James]

David,

Thanks, I found it. For some reason I stopped at the section on "Extended Storage" and didn't look any further.

The manual seems to assume an almost daily operation of the engine. From reading the Engine Storage section I should change the oil if we're staying at an RV park for a week.

It would be great to operate the bus daily or at least weekly but sometimes that's just not possible. Hopefully the Arizona air is dry enough to not cause damage during starting after leaving it for a month.

[travelite]

The manual seems to assume an almost daily operation of the engine. From reading the Engine Storage section I should change the oil if we're staying at an RV park for a week.

James,

I agree, it's no secret why over-the-road truckers get 1M miles out of their engines, while coach owners sometimes have to replace theirs with few miles on the clock.

Following the "30-day or less" storage section of the manual just isn't practical for us; unfortunately this may cause problems for some of our motors now and then. The best I can do is to dump the oil after a season of use and in preparation for storage; thereby, getting rid of the acid laden oil which may attack bearing surfaces. Then, while in storage, I drive the bus at least every 30 days, just long enough to get the oil up to temperature.

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Clearly if we drive our coaches like entertainers or charter operators do we would not be having this thread. Kevin likely would not have had the problem, and we would all be unaware of the damage on ANY engine that has been dormant for an extended period.

Plane owners are very much aware that to maximize the life of an engine it needs to be operated often. The cost of a plane engine compared to a bus engine isn't even in the same ballpark but we still don't run down to the hangar every week of two and go for a flight just to oil up the engine.

But virtually all of us have let our buses sit for extended periods, and Kevein's post was the first time this issue has arisien in my almost 20 years of ownership. I am not saying the problem has never occurred before, but it is the first time it has gotten so much awareness.

I honestly do not think any of us can prevent this type of engine damage unless we run our buses regularly (not just idling in the garage, but getting it on the road and heat soaking it) and unless we have parts properly hardened. (Thanks Ken for pointing that out.)

There may have been a series of parts not properly hardened. Kevin may have been twice unlucky. Remember, DD had a series of engines with defective pistons and except for word of mouth nobody was notified thay had potential problems until their engine cratered. Why would DD step up to the plate on this issue, if in fact it is an issue. Especially if it only affect owners who do not put 80,000 miles a year on the engines?

I got enough to worry about, such as health care and the war in Afghanistan so I'm not going to worry about this and I am going to keep doing what I have been doing for maintenance.

[dale farley]

It always concerns me when I hear things like this, but after thinking about it for a while, I realize there's nothing I can do to ensure that I am never going to have a failure. We can't accurately predict such a failure, and it is easy to waste thousands trying to prevent it.

At the beginning of each year, I write on my calendar to change my house AC filter and run my bus the first day of each month. During this time, I run the bus at fast idle, raise/lower the suspension, start my generator and Webasto, then gradually turn on all house systems (AC's, refrigerator, etc.) I move the transmission through all the gears a couple times and apply the brakes a few times. I usually let things run for approximately 30 minutes, according to outside temperature.

I realize this is not a cure all, but I feel it is the best I can do on a consistent basis. When I have a failure, I know that I took reasonable preventive measures to minimize my problems. I am sometimes surprised that something doesn't work right this month that was working fine the last month. I always realize that I can't "hold a light" to Jon's maintenance schedule. I never polish my slack adjusters.

I am also surprised when I see I have completely overlooked something that needed attention (like the small hoses on the radiator reservoir). Unfortunately, that is just the way mechanical things are. They have an average "mean time between failure" and then they are gone.

[gmcbuffalo]

Does anyone see anything wrong with Dale's logic? What is the downside of just high idleing your engine for a period of time?
GregM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I don't know enough about stuff related to our buses to have an opinion, but I do know that a lot of moisture is generated by running an engine. When it is a cold day you can see that moisture coming from the car exhaust pipe.

That moisture gets into our engine oil. It forms acids. The best way to drive it from the oil is to bring the entire engine up to temperature and allow that moisture to evaporate.

Dale may be getting his engine up to operating temperature by running it at high idle for 30 minutes. I would guess that it gets pretty warm and even if all the moisture is not evaporated, by re-oiling all the surfaces he is likely having a beneficial impact. But that is a guess.

[dale farley]

I certainly admit that I am not sure that everything I am doing provides the absolute best scenario for our buses, but I have determined in my own mind that there is logic in my procedure.

I do know that diesels are not supposed to run for extended periods of time on "slow" idle. Slow idle supposedly allows gunk to build up on the valves and cylinder heads which causes more serious problems down the road. I don't even slow idle my tractors for more than about 5 minutes at a time. I am certainly open to any suggestions anyone has to improve the procedure I am using.

I do realize that 30 minutes may sound like excessive running each month, but by the time I do the things I previously discussed, the 30 minutes is gone, so it doesn't seem that long at all.

[James]

In reviewing the engine manual I noticed it recommends the use of a "pressure pre-lubricator" prior to starting a new engine or starting an engine after storage.

I found a website that has something called a Pre-luber, see http://www.pre-luber.com/preluberproducts.htm .

Does anyone have any experience with one of these? It sounds like a possibile solution to the lack of lubrication problem the engine experiences aftering sitting for several days/weeks.

[gmcbuffalo]

I have my bus under a RV Cover to keep NW mold, moss, bird crap, fir and pine needles off of it during the winter and it is a PITA to remove on a weekly or monthly basis. So I like what you are doing Dale, especially running all the systems.
GregM

[dale farley]

James,

I was wondering why someone hasn't developed a prelube system. It appears they have. I don't see any downside to the system other than paying for it and having a few more fittings that could possibly leak. The system makes sense and may well be worth the $600-$700 when amortized over a few years.

If there is enough interest, maybe one of us could become a distributor and get a better price. I did not see the Series 60 engine listed on their site, but I don't know that means they don't have a preluber system for it.

[garyde]

If Detroit Deisel recommends all of this(pressure pre lubicator), change of oil before storage) in their manual, why have we not heard of any of this before. I'm a little flustered.
Now I know some of us hang on every single word, idea, suggestion, etc. which comes our way, but this is a little over the top.
A owner needs to know what is a suggestion and what is recommended!

[Larry W]

Don't know if this relates about letting the engine idle. Some years ago I read in a publication produced for the auto industry about idling. An engineer from Ford stated that prolonged idle places more load on the rod bearings than driving at highway speed. Something about the rotating mass reduces the bearing load. Engineer I am not.

[James]

James,
If there is enough interest, maybe one of us could become a distributor and get a better price. I did not see the Series 60 engine listed on their site, but I don't know that means they don't have a preluber system for it.

They do mention the Series 60 when ordering the drain plug adapter, see http://www.pre-luber.com/heavydutyplugchart.htm .

I would be interested in getting one installed if someone in the group wanted to become a distributor. It appears that it would solve the problem of lack of lubrication during start after exended storage.

[dale farley]

I called them this morning, and they are supposed to call me back. I am asking about the DD engines and distributorship reqirements. Their on-line info says that some of the kits don't come with all the hoses and fittings, so I want to find about the DD engines.

[James]

I called them this morning, and they are supposed to call me back. I am asking about the DD engines and distributorship reqirements. Their on-line info says that some of the kits don't come with all the hoses and fittings, so I want to find about the DD engines.

Thanks Dale, keep us posted.

[phorner]

Just because this issue isn't convoluted with enough variables already, what would be the benefit (if any) of using the Webasto engine pre-heat to get the engine nice and toasty before running it on high idle for a period of time?

Would bringing the engine temperature up good and high help to drive out some of the accumulated moisture?

[dale farley]

I have discussed this with ESP, and there are several different kits available. They recommend using an oil filter adapter for the input rather than the sending unit adapter. This provides a larger opening and an easier, neater and quicker install. It also costs more.

They also offer 24V and 12V systems. Another option is to use a manual kit that you just flip the switch when you want to activate the system (instead of having it tied to your your ignition switch). The down side is that there is very little markup in the system from their cost to distributor cost, and it requires a few thousand $ investment, and you get the headaches that go along with startup and on-going operation. If I become a distributor and cut the "gross" profit margin in half, there would only be about a $25 discount on each unit. This requires a somewhat long-term investment of funds and energy with ESP for them to offer any discount. They will not set anyone up as a distributor to just buy a few units at a discount for their friends, and that is understandable. Neither do we want to buy the units and not have adequate support in the future. They say they have had some pump failures in the past because of improper installations or applications, but their failure rate is currently near zero.

I am considering getting one and installing it as a prototype for our engines and see how it goes. I welcome any comments before I order one. Is there significant interest in the system from this group? Would most want an automatic or manual system? I am assuming that anyone interested in the system would want the one that provides pre lubrication before the engine starts (adjustable from 10 seconds to 180 seconds) and post lubrication for the turbo and engine after the engine shuts down (2-6 minutes).

[James]

I am considering getting one and installing it as a prototype for our engines and see how it goes. I welcome any comments before I order one. Is there significant interest in the system from this group? Would most want an automatic or manual system? I am assuming that anyone interested in the system would want the one that provides pre lubrication before the engine starts (adjustable from 10 seconds to 180 seconds) and post lubrication for the turbo and engine after the engine shuts down (2-6 minutes).

Thanks for checking. I would be interested in the automatic version that does provide pre/post lubrication.

I'll be back at the bus in a couple of weeks and may order one myself in order to get it installed before I have to leave for an even longer period.

I did talk to Marathon Coach in California. They store buses there for customers and start them periodically to keep the engines lubricated and the chassis batteries charged up. The service guy guy I talked too had never heard of a pre lubrication system.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

But James, what if you check your engine and the cam and roller rocker arms are already on their way out? Once the wear starts you can't stop it.

JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The angry mob appears to be headed in a new direction. I thought for a while every DD dealer would be looking at cams and rollers, but now it appears everyone will be installing pre-oilers.

I hope everyone realizes a pre-oiler will not coat cam lobes and rollers, so the parts in question that failed will be unaffected. However the bearings will get lubed.

[flyu2there]

Should you own a newer XL, time would be better spent installing a coat, maybe four or five coats, of Tape Coat....take it from one who has been there.

[GDeen]

Should you own a newer XL, time would be better spent installing a coat, maybe four or five coats, of Tape Coat....take it from one who has been there.


My man!:cool:

[James]

But James, what if you check your engine and the cam and roller rocker arms are already on their way out? Once the wear starts you can't stop it.

JIM

If that was the case then by installing the pre lubrication system I would hope to prevent future damage to the new cam and rocker arms that I would have to install.

I just had the valves adjusted and at that time the tech did not indicate any damage. I would like to keep it that way. It would be great to drive the bus every day but most of us are not able to do that.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Wishing you the best my friend, hope you are successful in your endeavor. Take no offense in my comments, just pulling your, ... a little.


JIM

[James]

I hope everyone realizes a pre-oiler will not coat cam lobes and rollers, so the parts in question that failed will be unaffected. However the bearings will get lubed.

Jon,

I was searching for something to prevent undamaged parts from becoming damaged from the initial start after setting for a long time. The Series 60 manual addresses this problem and states that:

"To insure an immediate flow of oil to all bearing surfaces"

"the engine lubrication system should be charged with a commercially available pressure pre-lubricator. If this is impractical, rocker covers should be removed and clean lubricating oil should be poured over the rocker arms."

Since removing the rocker covers is not practical for most of us, the pre luber or a similar system would seem to be the answer. Are you saying that the pre lubrication system would not prevent the kind of damage that Kevin experienced and if so, is there another way?

Other than a lighter wallet, is there any downside to installing a pre lubrication system?

[dale farley]

I see there are other systems out there that are supposed to do the same thing as the Pre-Luber. Some systems cost less, but don't appear to be as effective.

I am wondering how long it actually takes for all the oil around the bearings to actually drain out or dry up? As close as the fit is, I don't really see how "all" the oil can possibly drain out from around the bearings? It seems for some reasonable time, there should be some oil between the mated surfaces even if the oil has basically drained from the open surfaces. I suppose if left long enough the oil between the mated surfaces either dissipates or turns to a gummy substance.

[James]

Wishing you the best my friend, hope you are successful in your endeavor. Take no offense in my comments, just pulling your, ... a little.


JIM

Jim,

No offense taken, we're just trying to figure out this, new to us, Detroit Diesel engine.

Although it may have existed we never heard about a similar problem with the C13 CAT we operated for several years. We had a lot of problems with the rest of the motorhome but never the C13. It just purred and purred :)

And, knock on wood, we haven't had any problems so far with the DD.

[jack14r]

I have seen a lot of owners crank their series 60 and go straight to high idle,I read somewhere that we should let the engine idle at the lower speed for about 3 minutes before increasing the idle speed in order to make sure that all metals are lubed.If an engine does not have enough lubrication at start up I wonder if roller rocker damage like Kevin has shown us could be a result of high idle just after start up.

[James]

An update.

I talked to Valley Detroit, Gene I think it was, about pre lubrication and he stated they do the pre lubrication using a drill pump connected to the oil hose at the compressor.

He stated that any place you could get to a oil line or port would do, they just use the one at the compressor because it's easiest to get access to it. He also stated that there was a Detroit pre lubrication tool that did the same thing but that they just use the drill pump.

[Kevin Erion]

Did he say when and why they would do the pre lube?

[travelite]

James,

That's all I need. I'd be quite happy with the DD solution. Did they mention whether the pre-oiler is sufficient to lube the cam and the followers?

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[James]

The Valley Detroit guy indicate that they prelube the new engines or ones that have been inactive for a long time. He didn't seem to think that 30 days was long enough to need prelube however it couldn't hurt.

He also indicated that the oil went all through all the engine, including the top end.

[travelite]

He didn't seem to think that 30 days was long enough to need prelube however it couldn't hurt.

Well there you have it. So people, get out there and drive your bus once every 30 days, and if you can't do that, consider a pre-oiler, and if your travel season is over, in preparation for storage, dump that old acid laden corrosive oil and put in fresh stuff. :)

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[James]

One thing I forgot, the Valley Detroit guy did stress that you need to follow the manual on changing the oil if you're going to let the engine sit for awhile.

Seems you want to drain the old oil out when the engine is cold to make sure you get all of the condensation that is in the old oil, fill with new oil and only run the engine for a couple of minutes with the new oil so it lubricates everything but doesn't get hot enough to cause condensation when you shut down.

[travelite]

Seems you want to drain the old oil out when the engine is cold to make sure you get all of the condensation that is in the old oil, fill with new oil and only run the engine for a couple of minutes with the new oil so it lubricates everything but doesn't get hot enough to cause condensation when you shut down.

Excellent, that's the clearest explanation I've heard on why to do it cold and shut it off early.

There's so much mythology surrounding the concept of engine/oil warmup, synthetics and dino oils, pre-lube, storage and periodic driving. This thread has gone a long way to putting many of these myths to rest.

1) There's no substitute for daily/weekly driving.
2) If number 1 can't be achieved, then at least drive it every 30 days.
3) Get that old oil out of there, especially if storing for greater than 30 days.
4) If storing for greater than 30 days, consider a pre-oiler, and
5) synthetics need to be treated the same way, no distinction is made.

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[merle&louise]

There has been a lot said about draining the oil when the bus is going to sit up for a long while.

What actually happens inside the engine if the oil stays in the oil pan for say 6 months or so?

Does it rust? Corrode? Cause pitting?

I read that diesel produces sulfuric acid when an engine runs. Assuming this is correct (and I am not sure that it is) is that the reason for changing the oil?

Could someone explain this?

[James]

There has been a lot said about draining the oil when the bus is going to sit up for a long while.

What actually happens inside the engine if the oil stays in the oil pan for say 6 months or so?



I'm not sure what happens to the oil. The Series 60 manual does state however that if you're going to not operate the engine for more than 30 days to:

"Fill the crankcase to the proper level with Tectyl® 930A preservative lubricating oil or an equivalent 30–weight preservative lubricating oil
meeting Mil-L-21260C, Grade 2 Specification."

[travelite]

Tuga,

From what I gather engine oil has a buffering characteristic that neutralizes the acids that you talk about, predominantly sulfuric and nitric. As the engine oil ages, the buffer/neutralizing capability diminishes. These acids, if left unchecked, attack the metals in the engine, damage surfaces and possibly lead to early engine failure. As the engine sits, the thin layer of oil covering vital surfaces becomes ever thinner until virtually nothing is left to buffer against the acids that may form due to condensation. This situation is made worse if the oil is worn out; i.e., it's buffering/neutralizing capability is down by 50%. Get some fresh stuff in there and you stand a better chance of guarding those precious surfaces. This is my layman's understanding.


David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[flyu2there]

One thing I forgot, the Valley Detroit guy did stress that you need to follow the manual on changing the oil if you're going to let the engine sit for awhile.

Seems you want to drain the old oil out when the engine is cold to make sure you get all of the condensation that is in the old oil, fill with new oil and only run the engine for a couple of minutes with the new oil so it lubricates everything but doesn't get hot enough to cause condensation when you shut down.


There is no condensation in oil, any water would float on top but that would be a sign of a major problem...head gasket and so on. The moisture that is a by product of combustion will condense on the valve cover, fill tubes and other hidden places, and may eventuallly cause rust.... the chances of it dripping back onto the oil...slim to none! Changing the oil when cold would only aggravate the problem as the hot oil has the ability of carrying moisture out with it when it drains and venting thru the fill.

Should this really be a concern why not take the oil filler cap off the engine when you shut it down....it allows the system to vent and the moisture will evaporate. Really want to get down to the nitty gritty, buy a Tanis System for around 700.00 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/TanisEngineDehydrator.php

[flyu2there]

Tuga,

From what I gather engine oil has a buffering characteristic that neutralizes the acids that you talk about, predominantly sulfuric and nitric. As the engine oil ages, the buffer/neutralizing capability diminishes. These acids, if left unchecked, attack the metals in the engine, damage surfaces and possibly lead to early engine failure. As the engine sits, the thin layer of oil covering vital surfaces becomes ever thinner until virtually nothing is left to buffer against the acids that may form due to condensation. This situation is made worse if the oil is worn out; i.e., it's buffering/neutralizing capability is down by 50%. Get some fresh stuff in there and you stand a better chance of guarding those precious surfaces. This is my layman's understanding.


David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC


Close, no cigar! The stuff in the oil, commonly known as detergent, hold the not so pleasant effluent in suspension within the oil. There is no expiration date on a can, gallon or drum of oil...the "stuff" is still there after years. True, the detergents dissipate after use however the oil change intervals are set to the conservative and most folks drain oil that still has all the necessary properties.

A non running engine will produce very little, if any condensation, that is all a result of combustion, blow by and the like. Starting an engine and not allowing it to reach full operating temperature when there is a moducum of hope that the moisture will evaporate, is perhaps the most lethal thing one can do.

[flyu2there]

I'm not sure what happens to the oil. The Series 60 manual does state however that if you're going to not operate the engine for more than 30 days to:

"Fill the crankcase to the proper level with Tectyl® 930A preservative lubricating oil or an equivalent 30–weight preservative lubricating oil
meeting Mil-L-21260C, Grade 2 Specification."


Don't! That stuff is the first cousin of cosmoline, a waxy rust preventative used by the military. You have to get it out of there once you put it in...not so easy!

[James]

I found this prelub system that Cummins installes. See https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/qsol/products/cummins_recon_parts/prelub.html .

The maker, RPM Industries indicates that it is also installed on CAT and Detroit engines. It replaces the starter.

http://www.rpmindustries.org/cms/

[dale farley]

If DD shops are using a drill connected to the generator line, why couldn't a small pump be connected in that line to do the same. A normally open solenoid could be in parallel to allow oil to always flow straight through except when the pump is engaged. This would only require a pump, switch, solenoid and connectors for a manual system. I don't see why a simple pump such as this one wouldn't work. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Biodiesel-Pump-12V-12-V-fuel-oil-diesel-transfer-WVO_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c0e9f405aQQitemZ12 0504402010QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear

[travelite]

Close, no cigar! The stuff in the oil, commonly known as detergent, hold the not so pleasant effluent in suspension within the oil. There is no expiration date on a can, gallon or drum of oil...the "stuff" is still there after years. True, the detergents dissipate after use however the oil change intervals are set to the conservative and most folks drain oil that still has all the necessary properties.

A non running engine will produce very little, if any condensation, that is all a result of combustion, blow by and the like. Starting an engine and not allowing it to reach full operating temperature when there is a moducum of hope that the moisture will evaporate, is perhaps the most lethal thing one can do.

Well, not quite the full story. There are 2 types of contaminants in used oil, soluble and insoluble. What you are referring to are the insoluble components. These are the particulates and abrasives that need to be lifted, emulsified, and filtered. The soluble components include acids: sulfuric, nitric, and others. These components need to be buffered and neutralized. The TBN, total base number, is the measurement of an oil's ability to neutralize the acids, and yes, TBN degrades. At some point the acids can do real harm to engine surfaces.

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[Kevin Erion]

This is good reading, what a pandora's box I opened up! Maybe I can help to close it. Today I spoke to one of the engine rebuilders at United Engines, OKC. From looking around the shop I think we can all agree that they might know Detroit Engines as good as we do, maybe a little better! This is what a very seasoned technician told me. I might get it off a little so it's not a quote, just my interpretation of our conversation.
1) Do not put the motor on high idle until after it has run at low idle for at a minimum of 3 minutes. I am guessing this is when it is cold and the first start up after sitting, but not a bad thing all the time.
2) use the Detroit recommended oil.
3) If the engine has not been run for 3 or more weeks, turn engine over without starting for 15-20 seconds to prime oil to top end. This is done with the start button in the engine bay without turning the run switch to on. After cranking over for 15-20 seconds, then allow engine to start.
He did say that the damage is done at start up both by sitting to long and also # 1 cause is by going to high idle to soon!

I have to say that I would agree with all he said, lots of common sense.

[HarborBus]

Kevin, your right, this thread has gotten a serious work out:rolleyes:. Your information from United Engines seems logical to me, I for one will be practicing the procedure. Time will tell wheather it will bring the thread to a close.......... if I ventured a guess I would doubt it. Thanks for following up with United.

[dale farley]

Kevin,

I agree that all sounds reasonable. Did you happen to mention pre-lube to him?

[Kevin Erion]

Why ask about the pre-lube, there is one built in, a starter motor. Just make sure not to grind the heck out of it, I would do two 15 second intervals with a short rest period. Lots of compression for the starter motor to overcome.

[travelite]

Why ask about the pre-lube, there is one built in, a starter motor. Just make sure not to grind the heck out of it, I would do two 15 second intervals with a short rest period. Lots of compression for the starter motor to overcome.

Well, pre-lube is still important. There's considerable load on injector and valve followers and cam lobes even when spinning with the starter motor, very similar to the loads of an idling engine. With inactivity these surfaces withstand an ever decreasing oil film. Imagine simply spinning the starter with a relatively dry top end. Why not pre-lube it first?

[Denny]

For the past 10 years I have had my oil changed at Speedco on my bus and the Foretravel prior to the bus. I never took a survey but I would guess that nearly 75% of the truckers that are having service have Lucas added to their oil. Lucas recommends 20% Lucas added to the oil. On our Series 60 that would be 2 gallons Lucas and 8 gallons oil.

I was never a strong believer in oil additives but after so many owner operators told me to use it I have used it for the past several years. Many of the drivers have had over 400,000 miles on their engines (all makes) and have not had the valve cover off. I also use it in the generator and my Diesel pickup.

One of the many Lucas claims are "prevents dry start ups" and this is what we are trying to avoid.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I would like to add one final comment to this thread. We are able to know when something such as what Kevin is experiencing without any engine disassembly.

Most if not all of us have oil pan drain plugs with a very strong magnet. We also have oil filters that can be examined. At every oil change carfully inspect the oil pan drain plug. It should be totally free of the little whiskers or pieces of steel that will start to show up if the cam or rollers have this problem.

A second check is to cut the oil filter apart and open the paper element. Since metal pieces are not as obvious as they would be on the oil pan plug, if none are detected visually, run a strong magnet across the element surface. Any steel pieces will literally jump to the magnet.

Inspecting an oil filter is always done when changing the oil on a plane and there is no reason why that practice cannot be done on our buses.

As a comment I change my oil every 5000 miles on average. It may be considered excessive, but if I were to follow the 20,000 mile recommended intervals a lot of internal engine damage could occur before I noted metal in the filter or on the plug. Unlike commercial operators who put 80,000 to 100,000 miles annually on their engines we only run ours sporadically so I chose my oil change interval because I consider our use to be severe duty.

[lonesome george]

The engine in our bus is at 60K miles now and DD says that is when the first valve adjustment should be performed. I'm not so concerned about the valves being out of adjustment but in the condition of the cam and the cam followers, it has been noted in this thread that some are out there with 400k on them that have never been adjusted.
Ours had only been driven 900 miles in 5 years prior to our purchase, so I'm certain it had several dry starts through that time.
IMO ours has somewhat of a rough idle, I'm thinkin' better take a look.
With the valve cover removed I decided to try to do the adjustment without removing the closing cover but the coolant return tube had to go. It can be done but you've got to want it.
The cam and cam followers were in good condition, that's usually not my luck.
Made some tools for the under the cover adventure. The local DD dealer did not have the injector adjusting tool in stock so I rigged up a dial indicator that was a pain to use.
I did NOT find ANYTHING that I would call out of adjustment. Intakes tight by maybe .001 or .002, exhausts OK to tight by .002. My guess is that DD sets them up a little tight, I'm sure they have a better method for adjusting valve lash than a feeler gauge. Injectors within .010 of each other.
I don't have a Jake Brake so I have no idea how that complicates the activities.
Body positioning:
Cylinders 1 & 2 from ground level.
Cylinders 3, 4 & 5 left knee on top of the right angle drive for the cooling fan and then MOUNT the engine.
Sweet cylinder 6 over the chassis batteries under the power steering supply hose, arms must go in first, got wormed in only to find out that my bifocals had no functioning range.
IF I ever do this again the closing cover is coming out!
pic. 1 compartment ready for action.
pic. 2 tool for intake valve and injector adjustment.
pic. 3 tool for exhaust valve adjustment.
pic. 4 top view.

[Ray Davis]

George, did you get your valve covers off without tearing apart your bedroom?

[lonesome george]

Ray.
Yes that is what I call the closing cover. The valve cover can be removed on my bus without removing the coolant return tube as well, just don't think the valves can be adjusted with the coolant return tube in place.
Please note I have an XL, don't know if a XLII has the same layout, I have about 3/4 of an inch clear above the valve cover and that is enough to get it off.

[travelite]

George,

Is that a Click-Adjust tool you're using? I've never seen a tool like that before?

Thanks
David Brady
'02 BlueBird Wanderlodge, LXi
NC

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Another seminar for Kerrville.

George, since yours has been done, you can do the seminar on mine. 225,000 miles and never been done. Not making metal yet based on the oil change I just did 0 miles ago.

[truk4u]

George,

How did you rotate the crank, big macho breaker bar or using the starter?

[lonesome george]

David, the handle for the locknut socket and the adjusting screw socket are home made, just cut off a 3/16" hex T handle for the other one.
Jon, you must have missed the part about if I do this again the closing cover is coming out. Or maybe we can get a contortionist to adjust # 5 & 6, I used up all my moves on this one.
Tom, the DD service manual says to turn the engine with the 3/4" square drive in the crankshaft pulley, I turned it with nut on the auxialiary drive, engine turns pretty easy. I turned off all the chassis battery disconnects so the starter would be inop.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

George, I didn't miss it. We need a demonstration of the method you will not be using again. Plan on the availability of my coach.

I agree with turning the engine using the aux drive on the LH side.

[lonesome george]

Discovered today that the top of the engine compartment in my bus is 3" taller than a standard XL, 86" floor to ceiling verses 83" floor to ceiling, this could make moving around in my engine compartment easier than it is in most XL's. I don't think the area under the electrical enclosure is different and I believe the closing cover is in the same place, but this 3" difference could be a big deal when adjusting the valves.

Jim C. said "you best fess up on POG before someone else catches that" so now we have full disclosure of this dirty little secret.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I don't think it has an impact on clearances George.

The additional height comes between the floor and the bottom of the windows so the clearances you had will be the same for all coaches.

At one time I could tell the difference by counting the ribs below the windshield, but I forgot the standard number.

[lonesome george]

The area I'm talking about is the section directly above the electrical enclosure, Jim's has 4 5/8" clearance for the top corner of the electrical enclosure to the top of the compartment, mine is closer to 8". I think everything else is the same from the vertical section behind the enclosure forward.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

In that sense yes. That is where the height can become an advantage. Actually we don't need height as much as we need longer arms and younger eyes.

[lonesome george]

Yea man! Arms short about 10" (for this job), eyes about 15 years.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Well I just had my cataracts removed and it looks too tight for me to even think about tackling that job from below.

[pwf252]

Smart man that William Douglas. Do not go gentle into that good night, Rage rage against the dying of the light!!!!!!!!!!!

[gmcbuffalo]

I tried turning over a 8v92 like Kevin said with the starter. I the engine started almost imediately, Front key off and back switch also in the off position. Is this technique 60 series specific?
GregM

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Greg, I had tried mine and found that the engine does not turn over unless the toggle switch is flipped to rear start, thus causing the bus to start immediately upon depressing the start button.
I didn't comment on that as I thought I had something different.
We'll see how others respond to the question.
Maybe it's an XLII thing?
Maybe Kevin changed his circuitry?
In theory it would be possible, but mine as wired by Prevost does not!



JIM

[Kevin Erion]

I have to admit, I soke first and then I did my test. I was wrong, the bus will start when you have everything on to crank the motor over. I think for me the best thing is to start the bus every 2 or 3 weeks if it is going to sit, I just make sure it gets to at least 190 water temp before I shut it off.
Sorry for the bad info!

[Kenneth Brewer]

Greg, I had tried mine and found that the engine does not turn over unless the toggle switch is flipped to rear start, thus causing the bus to start immediately upon depressing the start button.

JIM

Same here.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The engine actually turns pretty easily (S-60) by using a 3/4 drive socket on the nut holding the accessory drive pulley located on the LH side of the engine (as we face it).

If you want the engine to spin but not start trip CB #19,20.21 (you need to verify this because I am going by memory). Those breakers are the DDEC breakers and the engine will not run unless DDEC is powered up.