Let's make POG better

[Petervs]

Fellow Poggers,

A few weeks ago there was a long thread mostly about the booting off the site of a member. This concerns me very much, and since no reasonable explanation has been forthcoming, I have decided to cancel the automatic renewal of my $100 annual dues when it comes up in mid October. This is a sad occasion, as I have met a lot of friendly and knowledgeable people in POG, as well as a few clowns and religious or political zealots. I think I have contributed my fair share of useful information, humor, and snide remarks over the past few years. Joe C's posts on the conversion of his coach and some of his other projects were among the more interesting threads we have had lately, and without them POG is less valuable to me. But the underlying reasons for his departure are much more important to consider.

It is now 10 days before the OKC rally, and rather than just disappear from the group I thought I would bring this up again in the hope it might spark some discussion at the rally for possible improvements to POG. Perhaps as you drive to OKC you can consider the issues and a meaningful dialog can ensue while many members are together. I am all in favor of working to make POG better but I can not continue with POG as it is now. Let me know how I can help.

My concerns are as follows:

1. Either we are MEMBERS or CUSTOMERS. If we are members, then that infers we have some say over the operation of the group, by providing input to a manager or board of directors, or by participating in the creation of a document that governs the operation by a manager, bylaws if you will. If we are customers, then we simply take what is provided for the price charged, or not. The home page of POG calls us members. But there is no mechanism to affect the operation of POG by members. All we can do is call or email Skiff and he decides without recourse. As it is now I feel I am being treated as a customer, not a member, and I know how to act as a customer if I am not satisfied.

2. The home page also states: "The Prevost Owner's Group (POG) is an open group dedicated to sharing in-depth information 24/7 on the internet, and at occasional rallies. Anyone who has an interest in the Prevost ownership experience is welcome to join, current owner or not. Members are people who are interested in learning more about Prevost ownership, lifestyle, mechanics, finances; the entire range of topics essential to full
enjoyment of a Prevost coach."

There is no mention anywhere about membership being denied to anyone. The only comment made by Jim Skiff on the site about removing Joe is that he needs to have insurance, but that is not a requirement to belong to POG. Is it required that we all have insurance? What kind? What limits? Surely this is absurd.


3. There is a list of sponsors on the home page, but the sponsors rarely if ever post any information on the site. I think we would all benefit if the sponsors participated in the discussions concerning their products. In my mind, the big 3 are Prevost, Marathon and Liberty, but many smaller suppliers like the inverter manufacturers or the tire companies as examples would be a welcome addition to thread participation. What is POG doing to address this?

What benefit do us "members" derive from having the sponsors at all? I know they pay higher annual dues to advertise on the site and to fatten the Skiff coffers, and they occasionally pay for something at a rally, but really, why are we better off having sponsors at all? If you work for Marathon say, can you not simply be a member as an individual? What "rule" requires one to be a sponsor instead of a regular member? What benefit does a sponsor derive from paying the extra money each year?

4. There is the issue of private messages. If 'private' means they can or will be read by the webmaster, then that should be noted in the FAQ section under private messaging. The cat is already out of the bag on this, but future members might not get the history.

5. Lastly, it has often been noted on the site that there are no rules. Under why one should join POG, it states: "There is no hierarchy, boss, politics, everyone enters as an equal."If there are no rules, fine, then no rules have been broken and no one can or should be booted off the group. If there are rules, they should be published so we all know what they are, and what happens when they are broken.

I am dismayed that when this thread was running so many POGGERS just wanted this whole issue to go away rather than address it publicly once and for all.

I would like to continue to belong to the POG group. I hope that some progress can be made on some of these issues to make me change my mind. I am not saying Joe must be "re-membershipped" but there must be some momentum within POG to clean up this internal mess before I will continue.

For those who plan to flame me for bringing up this dirty laundry again, thanks in advance for your fine upstanding morals. For those who want to address these issues let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

Looking forward to everyone's comments!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Until all the facts are known any debate on this topic is going to be nothing more than an exercise which will piss people off. I think the topic should be dicsussed, if necessary, not about anyone in particular, but in how to deal with some of the points raised.

Personally I would like to see this issue ended.

[grross]

Peter...well said!!

[Denny]

Peter,

You have expressed exactly the way I feel about the Joe situation. I thought that I was alone in my feelings. I have kind regards for Joe and yes he came to Ohio to work on my coach. After he left, I discovered a minor problem with the work he did and he returned to Ohio from Chicago to correct it at no cost to me. I wish all companies were as thorough as Joe and backed their work as he does.

There are some very knowledgeable members in POG and I considered Joe one of them. He contributed a great amount of info based on his many years of trucking and practical experience.

Another concern of mine is Lew. Why was Lew disbarred from the group? Unless I missed it, there was very little mentioned about him and the reasons for his dismissal.

I am not against POG and Jim Skiff. I want to see it grow and prosper for Jim and all of the "members". Over my several years of membership, I have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge about Prevost and the many converters.

[parksincpp]

Can anyone give a summary of what happened with Joe and Lew so that I can understand? Maybe the name of the thread or a link?

[Petervs]

Hi Scott,

Well, you have now identified the problem. All this has happened behind the scenes and not much has been out in public except for a few little tidbits here and there.

The original thread is called "Anybody seen Joe?" in the category Miscellaneous Items.

http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/showthread.php?t=3792&highlight=happened+joe

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Peter, I am trying to figure your motive. Right now, despite my email to you you still seem to want to stir the pot. Perhaps you can correct me about your motives which seem designed to inflict the greatest amount of turmoil for Jim while he is trying to do the best he can for those of us in POG.

Your dumb comment about wanting to know what is going on behind the scenes is a perfect example. I would bet in your business you never revealed all of your motives to either your customers or employees, but you expect Jim to reveal his.

If you took the time to read my email you know the reason for the absence of Joe and that reason does not have to be made public. Despite the great posts made by Joe and the help he has provided to others he apparently has made a choice.

With regard to your other questions, if you can back off of making this topic about personalities and focus discussion on shaping policy or creating a more open group it would make sense to discuss them. But as long as you make the discussion about individuals the discussion will quickly disintegrate.

I thought you were a bigger man. You have a twisted sense of humor and values and I love most of your posts because of that, but right now I agree maybe you should let your membership lapse.

[ajhaig]

I can see both sides of this issue.

Jim's prospective:

It's Jim's site and he calls the shots. I'm sure Jim recognized, when he made his decision, that Joe added a tremendous amount of value to the group. Clearly there was more to the decision then proper insurance coverage.

Members' perspective:

People come to places like POG for information. It doesn't make a difference to the member seeking information if the information is coming from a fellow member, a fellow member with a side business, or from a POG sponsor.

What I don't understand is how this issue will "piss people off"?

About what? That Joe got the boot? Or that people will be reminded that some of the content (that they're paying for) has been unilaterally censored away? It seems to me that the facts will never be known.

I highly doubt that anyone will be pissed off because they're afraid that Joe may rejoin the group.

I think the world of POG and its members and feel that it would be a big loss if Peter leaves the group.

Early in our trip we had some problems with our coach, we were in Peter's neck of the woods and he offered to help us out. He invited us to stay at his home (50 amp service, sewer and water) and he spent the better part of a day helping me with the coach.

Additionally, Peter isn't afraid to speak his mind or disagree for fear that he may be less popular with the group. People like Peter bring a sense of balance to groups like POG, you may not agree with them all the time, but in the long run they make it a better place.

The OKC Rally looks like it will be a great time. Perhaps this issue can be kicked around and we can get some clarity and closure to it.

Keep up the good work Jim.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Good Bye PeterVS.

We are going to miss having your posts, almost as much as we miss, Joe C. and Lew.

Gary S.

[0533]

POG is a very small, specialized users group, as a result many of its membership know each other very well, as friends online and off, occasional rallies, trading stories and helping one another.

It is very disappointing to find that there has been a falling out between membership and Jim Skiff.

Unfortunately the barn door is now open, it has been fueled by the various threads and it should be resolved.

The posts that I have read so far seem to indicate a general uneasiness about the current events, the way it was handled and the long term affect it my have on the forum.

This entire problem has been played out in the public arena, it should be resolved there, and try to do so with a very high level of transparency in an effort to regain the high level of confidence we all have for POG.

Lets cut to the chase and get this issue dealt with, if Joe has actually violated the basic rules of POG?? Has done something that is so egregious to another POG member or to a client?? then we should be made aware (if Joe and Jim will allow us all to hear what actually occurred) so we can all develop a clear understanding of the POG rules for membership. It is only fair for all of us to be on an even playing field.

[tdelorme]

I was going to stay out of this but if we're all going to express an opinion, here goes.

We're members of a privately owned company. It's not a country club or a fraternal organization where we all get to vote on issues that come up. We're members like you would be a member of a health club or privately owned culb of any kind. In reality, like Peter said, we're customers.
The dispute between Jim and Joe is absolutely none of our business. It does not concern us. We're beating a dead horse with this deal.
This needs to be handled by the parties involved and I for one don't want or need to know the details.
What I would like is for everyone to show up in OKC next week ready to have a blast and learn from the activities that are planned. We're way better than this. Let's move on.

[BUSTER]

"You cannot please all of the people...all of the time"

"A business is not a democracy"

I give Jim a passing grade for how he handles the site..this is his job.

I have no issues on what has been done.

I do not think it warrants a public forum at OKC.

I am a member of the silent majority on this.

May this be the last post on this topic...here's hoping!!!

I look forward to seeing many of you soon.

All the best,

[garyde]

Hi Peter. I think the POG folks already hashed this out and put it on a shelf. Beats me why we need another review on this.
There's really no more to it.

[Darl-Wilson]

Fellow Poggers,
My concerns are as follows:

1. Either we are MEMBERS or CUSTOMERS. If we are members, then that infers we have some say over the operation of the group, by providing input to a manager or board of directors, or by participating in the creation of a document that governs the operation by a manager, bylaws if you will. If we are customers, then we simply take what is provided for the price charged, or not. The home page of POG calls us members. But there is no mechanism to affect the operation of POG by members. All we can do is call or email Skiff and he decides without recourse. As it is now I feel I am being treated as a customer, not a member, and I know how to act as a customer if I am not satisfied.

Looking forward to everyone's comments!

I am a member of Costco..I can't vote on reinstating another member that had his card revoked. I am a member of the Good Sam Club. I cannot dictate how Bob Livingston writes his column. I was a member of the U.S. Navy and I wasn't allowed to vote for the skipper of my squadron or to demand that he change a ruling he made regarding any operation. He could put me in the brig if I voiced opposition to his command.

As a member of the POG I always knew my membership was based on payment of my 'dues', behaving like a gentleman, and most importantly that the POG is a privately owned, for-profit business. This is much the same as the Good Sam Club and all of it's affiliates. They are a private, for-profit business.

So Peter, you are honorably departing the POG but not without leaving many of us wondering why you are trying to besmirch the reputation and business practices of a small, family-run company.

Darl

PS: Jon W's latest post summerizes how I perceive this tempest. Not very pretty and it sure is time to move on.

[phorner]

In some respects, I believe that the spirited, and at times emotional, discussion that has followed these events help demonstrate the success of POG as a forum.

Many of us have long surpassed the classic status of "member" as we have met each other, helped each other and socialized together. We have made close friends and relationships that feel much more like an extended family than simple on-line participants in a faceless forum. So, it's only natural to want to come to the aid of a "family" member or close friend that we might perceive has been wronged. Our first reaction is to want to help out in any way we can. We feel a kinship that most on-line forums fail to achieve.

All that being said, it's easy to forget that this forum is also a business that provides the livelihood of the owner/administrator upon which a family depends. It is the not only the right, but the obligation, of every business owner to make decisions that are believed to be in the best interest of the business and the family which depends on it.

As a member of an on-line forum, I have no right to question business decisions which are, frankly, none of my business.

I also have every right to miss friends who, for what ever reason, no longer participate in our on-line discussions.

It's time to move on......

See ya in OKC, and have a safe and uneventful trip there!

[Coloradobus]

UGH!! We want to enjoy OKC!! If you want RV politics up to your necks, buy an Airstream and join the WBCCI.

[Sid Tuls]

Just go to the rally and have a great time! Forget about this little hick-up and polish up our toys and cook up some steaks and sheep and then sit around and enjoy being a POG member!!!!!!!!!

[truk4u]

Sid,

Cooking sheep, now you've done it!:eek:

PS - Thanks for the T in Nashville.....

[BrianE]

Peter is of course and old and dear friend. We've known him and his family for years. Beverly and I highly value their friendship though we sometimes view things from opposite ends of the same telescope. We've also become good friends with both Joe and Jim....

1. Peter: You've made your point. Folks, it's time to move on and enjoy the rally.

2. Jim and Joe: Though it's no ones business but yours, please reach for the best in yourselves and try to patch things up.

[sawdust_128]

You all seem to be so upset that Joe and Lew are gone. You seem to get pissed off that Skiff did something. I am not upset or pissed off about any of that. All three men have something in common, they play with passion. I have great respect for all three as at any given moment, they might do the right thing, they might do the wrong thing, but they won’t do nothing.

First Lew: Lew lives his life his way. He doesn’t mince his words. He has been raised when correct was more important than politically correct. I truly admire him for that and find too many people would benefit from a big dose of vitamin Lew. I spoke with him just before he sold his coach. He decided that now was the right time to sell the coach and he did just that. I am happy for Lew. I admire him as he is still calling his own shots in his own way and on his own time. Lew’s life transcended POG. Right on Lew!!

Now Skiff. Here is a man I have never met. He has always helped me when I asked. He has a business to run. He seems to do it with more than a reasonable degree of competence and success. He like every other person on this earth has a set of priorities, and as we all know, sometimes those are goals and sometimes they are limitations. It is up to the individual to decide for himself how to play the hand. I thank Skiff for doing something and not sitting back and letting things get completely out of control. I would be gone from the POG in a heartbeat if that happened.

Lastly, Joe: There is no way that Joe and I could not become friends once we met. There is no way Joe will ever not be my friend. For me, he is one of those people that you feel like you have always known. I think I look very differently at the result that pisses so many of you off. I am amazed by it. I have to ask myself what did one little Italian kid from Chicago’s south side do to piss so many people off? I am befuddled by it at other times. How bad is the economic forecast of the converters if one little Italian guy becomes the focus of such angst?

I’ve been pretty much sitting back watching all this. It seems to me That Joe departing the POG was a good thing. For Skiff, problem over. For Joe, he got a whole bunch of advertising that the converters can’t even buy. They turned Joe into a legend of sorts. To use a Yogi Berra-ism, if the converters are so worried about what Joe is doing, what is it that Joe is doing that so worries them? So, I say good for Skiff and good for Joe. Too bad for the sponsors that complained (if that was what happened) as eventually, they will be found out., and I suspect that the disclosure won’t be too good for them.

Here’s the bottom line. Neither Skiff nor Joe are going to change their mind. That’s over and in the words of Tony Soprano “Fugetaboutit!” End of story! End of conversation! It ain’t gonna happen! That dog won’t hunt. Time to move on regarding that one.

However, there are still a number of issues being voiced. Some have merit, others can be worked around, but some just really chafe my ass.

Here we go:

None of the “members/customers” of POG is entitled to disclosure as to what happened . That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

The statement on the front page of the POG web which alludes to “no bosses” , that’s bull and needs to be corrected. It is misleading.

Many of you want the threads regarding this to stop. I say to you O.K. we heard you now go read another thread.

Some of you are concerned about “Private Messages” not being so private. It is simple, go use email or your calling plan.

Several of you have expressed a need for rules/guidelines. Great! Make it happen, don’t let me get in your way. If they work for me when they are done, I stay. Otherwise I fold my tent and pack out. That’s just the way it is.

Now I come to the issues that frost my butt.

Several of you had the audacity to contact me and tell me What, When, and How to feel about this situation. That act was definitely way over the top. Let me say this straight up. YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO THINK FOR ME. Make sure you remember that. I will look silly putting my size 11 steel toe-boot in your ass (figuratively), and you are going to look stupid trying to get it out, if you forget. That is a promise. I have now fixed ignorance, I won't try to fix stupid.

POG has sponsors. We know who those companies are. Who from the sponsors is reading POG and when? Why should we not know this? Why does no one on this forum feels a moral obligation to tell the new guys (the fresh meat) about the fact that they have entered the fish shooting barrel? That when they state they are looking for a coach they are probably painting a bull’s-eye on themselves for every salesman of every sponsor? They are so pre-qualified by the time they show up, I suspect that the whole sales effort is scripted against them. Plus, let those sales guys do their own damn work unless they want to include us in their compensation plan.

Who are the “guests” who are logged in all the time? Why are they entitled to anonymity? Are they criminals? Are they cowards? What is being hidden by whom? What is up with that? Because of these anonymous users, I didn’t trust the forum when I originally joined and the little trust I have developed over the past year has now been eroded significantly. Make no mistake, I have a great deal of trust in the members I know, but the forum is not a secure environment. Way too many unknowns to be trusted.

Why don’t the sponsors more actively participate in the discussions? Obviously they are sufficiently aware of the content of the forum as to be able to influence and effect changes to the membership if it fits their agenda. Which one of them is going to stand up and fill the content and information void left by the changes that have occurred?

Bottom line for me on this, all the sponsors got dirty on this probably because of the shameful actions of one. That’s too bad.