Oil Change Costs?

[GDeen]

What is reasonable for an oil and filter change on the Series 60? Local Freightliner is quoting ~$340 which seems a tad high to me.

I am servicing the genset myself, but am not interested at this point in the hassle factor of changing the oil and filter on the big engine.

[Ray Davis]

I think that's a pretty good price. I'm scheduled at ABC Bus to get a complete oil change, chassis lube, filter change etc, for around $450? Same thing priced at Prevost or Marathon was going to be over $800.

[Loc]

Gordon,

I go to B-Line lube, it is a truck oil change specialty shop with locations in west Houston, Odessa and Sweetwater (not terribly close to Austin). It runs $170 for oil, fuel filters and oil filter with a lube. I don't let them do the lube however. Flying J has J-Care service centers (the closest one is Dallas or west Houston). They have an Express Service (oil, fuel filters, oil filter, lube, coolant check, trans check) for $175. There has to be a heavy truck maintenance place in Austin that could get close to that price.

Loc

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gordon, I have no clue about what the market will charge for anything, but I can tell you hours and material costs.

If all you need is an oil change with new filters, and a lube, plus an inspection of all other fluid levels here is what I use.

(I pump from a drum and don't know the exact amount on oil so I may be off by a gallon or 2) I would check the WalMart price for a gallon of 15W40 oil meeting the Detroit Spec. It changes so I won't even guess. I would figure 9 gallons.

The filters (it takes 2) are about $16 each, some places a little less, some a little more.

I don't know what fuel filters you have but $25 is close enough for them in the context of this SWAG.

Those numbers represent what would be a reasonable price charged to you, since Prevost buys this stuff at substantially lower prices.

To fully lube my coach, dump and fill oil, replace fuel filters, check all fluid levels in the hubs, diferential, power steering, coolant, and windshield washer I take five hours total. Trust me when I say along the way I am looking stuff over, draining air tanks, looking for leaks in hub seals, looking for chafing, worn hoses, cuts in tires, brake pad thicknesses, and anything else I want to look at to verify no surprises on the road.

If I were a shop doing that work to that quality level I would charge you $500 for the labor content plus materials. If however you have someone who is going to drain and refill oil, grease it and not give it the hours of attention I spend doing an underside inspection then the price should be adjusted. The only way to insure the attention to detail is there is to do it yourself or watch it being done. That's the cynic in me talking.

An oil change with filters takes an hour or a little more. I do not check my transmission level other than using the keypad. It is the most accurate way. You can do that yourself.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I should add this is not a case of getting what you pay for. It is a case of you can get it done very inexpensively, which is good as long as you understand that it takes time to really do a quality job under the coach. I just do not know how you can be assured you get that, so maybe the best approach is to go for the cheapest oil and filter change, and have the underbody inspections done separately to a checklist.

BTW, greasing one of these is fairly simple and fast (I have a 120#drum and 40 feet of hose with a grease gun and a pit) but looking for evidence of worn linkages, or any other mechanical issues takes time.

Also.......if you let someone not familiar with disc bake systems grease the coach you can have problems if certain brake components are overgreased such as the slack adjuster pivots or the drum brake shoe pivots if so equipped.

[dale farley]

Jon has pretty much summed it up. I do mine also using gallon containers, and it takes 41 quarts of oil.

[GDeen]

I need to develop a maintenance schedule to look at all the things you are speaking of Jon. I have already done some of it albiet somewhat randomly - checked all the wet hubs fluid levels, checked undercarriage, checked rubber, etc.

The quote was for 1 hour labor and materials and he came up with the $340 estimate. When I told him I would like to hang around during the job, he said make yourself at home, but it may take him 3 hrs. Who knows.

Loc, Ray, thanks for the info. I am wanting to learn to check all the main items needing checking myself, and just want a basic oil and filter change from these guys.

I am going to Jon's house one of these days with coveralls on and notebook in hand.:D

[hobobimmer]

I am going to Jon's house one of these days with coveralls on and notebook in hand.:D

If you are in East TN, you could also come to my house for your "under the bus" look. That way Jon won't have to move his bus from his garage. If you come here, you should still ask Jon to drive the one hour 10 minutes from his house to mine, and carry a notebook/pen, and bring coveralls. He will fill you with info.

Jon did a beautiful chart for maintenance on the bus. I modified his a little bit for my bus, and if I can find your email under Members List, I'll send you a copy. It's in Excel spreadsheet program.

Eric Faires
Huntsville, TN

[GDeen]

Thanks Eric. Got the spreadsheet and will work with that going forward.

[michaeldterry]

Jon did a beautiful chart for maintenance on the bus. I modified his a little bit for my bus, and if I can find your email under Members List, I'll send you a copy. It's in Excel spreadsheet program.


Eric - I would love to get a copy of your Excel spreadsheet checklist! If you will, please forward a copy to michael_terry@comcast.net. Thanks!

[BrianE]

While this has been posted in the past, the following link will allow members to download relevant tech publications from the Prevost website. The maintenance manual lubrication section gives a detailed list of periodic maintenance items and lube specs. http://prevostparts.volvo.com/technicalpublications/en/manuel.asp.

Jon's spread sheet, his maintenance schedule and a whole host of other valuable information can be found in the Information Sharing section of this site. ;)

[Richard Barnes]

If you are in East TN, you could also come to my house for your "under the bus" look. That way Jon won't have to move his bus from his garage. If you come here, you should still ask Jon to drive the one hour 10 minutes from his house to mine, and carry a notebook/pen, and bring coveralls. He will fill you with info.

Jon did a beautiful chart for maintenance on the bus. I modified his a little bit for my bus, and if I can find your email under Members List, I'll send you a copy. It's in Excel spreadsheet program.

Eric Faires
Huntsville, TN


Eric,

Can you send to me as well; crichardbarnes@bellsouth.net
Thanks, Richard Barnes

[hobobimmer]

Jon's spread sheet, his maintenance schedule and a whole host of other valuable information can be found in the Information Sharing section of this site. ;)

A few people on this POG site have asked me to send them the Maintenance chart I use when I service our bus. Just to make sure I'm not receiving credit for work I didn't do, my chart is based on Jon Wehrenberg's chart, which can be found, as Brian E. points out above, on the Information Sharing section of this site. I didn't create it. I copied it from Jon Wehrenberg.

As Jon encouraged me to do when I was learning about our bus, he said adapt his chart to our bus. So I did. Note that if you do use what I send, there will probably be a lot of changes for your bus. And for extra insurance to make sure your "personalized chart" covers what it is supposed to cover, review his chart to make sure you've covered everything. Remember, he is A-1.

Eric Faires
Huntsville, TN

[Ray Davis]

Eric,

As a point of comparison to Jon's chart, what type of customizations did you add?

[hobobimmer]

Eric,

As a point of comparison to Jon's chart, what type of customizations did you add?

I'm not sure of the "customizations" I put in that are different from Jon's. One thing I think I added (without going back to Jon's to compare) was a "Next Due" column. He may have that, too, I just can't remember. Other things I know would be different would be oil filter numbers (and probably every other filter number, if I listed it). Same for belt numbers. Since we have different era buses, we're going to have different numbers for almost everything.

I think on my most recent chart, I regrouped some of the items from his list. For example, I put all the brake line inspections, brake shoe inspections, and brake adjustments together instead of different places in the chart. I recall that Jon grouped his more by mileage (5000 mile items first, then 10,000 mile items, then 6 month items, then one year items, then 10 year items, etc.). It would be up to you to organize your chart as you see fit. I used Jon's chart for my first three services, and it works beautifully.

My chart is a work in progress/process. If ever I see something that I want to change, I just change it on the chart. I would encourage you to do same with my form or Jon's form for your bus. I think the most important thing would be to make sure you have everything you do to the bus on the chart, and go through the chart whenever you do maintenance to make sure you cover every item you want to cover for that time/mileage interval.

Hope this is helpful and answers your question.

Eric Faires
Huntsville, TN

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Just a few comments......

Each chart or schedule is coach specific. I list my filter and belt and air bag and other numbers on my schedule so when they are due I do not have to go looking for them.

Also the intervals are mine. I use the Prevost schedule as a guide, but I also know from experience when I want to change brake chambers, air bags, etc. I also have very short oil change intervals. Others may choose to set other intervals. Its you schedule and there is no right or wrong as long as it satisfies you.

It is coach specific because each chassis has differences, like Eric's 8V92 compared to my Series 60. I have automatic slack adjusters whereas Eric has a combination of some automatic and some manual adjusters. I also included house maintenace, such as AC filter cleaning.

So if you pull up the Maintenance Schedule, use it to create you own and you will also probably improve upon what I did.

[Mark3101]

What is reasonable for an oil and filter change on the Series 60? Local Freightliner is quoting ~$340 which seems a tad high to me.

I am servicing the genset myself, but am not interested at this point in the hassle factor of changing the oil and filter on the big engine.

Just had mine done at local Freightliner dealer today. Oil change, oil filters, fuel filters, check differential oil, and a quick once over under the bus for $429.00. I will do the genset myself, but didn't want the hassle of the main engine either.

FWIW, they used 15-40 Delvac 1300.

[GDeen]

Nice coach Mark! Hope you guys are enjoying it.

I have found a local independent diesel shop about 15 minutes from my barn. Talked to the service writer and they maintain several Prevosts owned by some local entertainers. He knew of all the lube points and was familiar enough to discuss the bus over the phone. Going to give them a shot - like the idea of establishing a raport with a local independent for this stuff going forward.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Free advice.........when you turn your coach over to someone, especially someone you have not used before don't hesitate to give them a list of exactly what you expect, including such seemingly simple and obvious thins as look for indications of leaky hub seals, do not overlubricate the slack adjusters, check for chafing of any air lines, hises or wires, check all fluid levels, drain all air tanks (caution regarding the tanks serving the air bags...the coach will drop when they are drained).

By explainiing your expectations, and then checking when the techs are done they know you have a high degree of interest, and are not apt to give them a pass is something is not correct and should have been checked.

I am speaking from experience on a coach that was represented as having been properly serviced and it was not. In fact it had several things wrong that could have resulted in a serious situation.

I think you can use the Prevost service schedule, or a maintenance schedule found on the POG site or one you create on your own. I seriously would consider documenting what was done and add the date and mileage. It not only helps you with scheduling future work, but if you retain those records the next owner of the coach knows you have a coach worth a premium due to documented maintenance.

[GDeen]

As a follow up, finally was able to keep an appointment with a local independent diesel shop yesterday (Malone Diesel Dripping Springs, TX). Selected Malone due to the convenience of their location and the fact that they also take care of several other Prevosts for customers in the area.

Went in armed with my lube point schematic from the on line Prevost maintenance site. Was able to go over the lube points with the hand before he got on the crawler and underneath. Also went over jack points before they supported the coach.

41 qts of Delo in the engine, 9 more in the overhead reservoir, fuel filters, oil filters, lube and inspection was $440.00. Took about 2.5 hrs as I watched over them. I would like to forge a relationship with them for future maintenance and was happy with the work. As Jon says, when they figure out you know the coach (somewhat) and are very involved in its upkeep, you tend to get more personalized service.

As an aside, a couple of the other mechanics and the shop owner came out to look over the coach. All said the engine compartment was the cleanest they have seen which is good. That also creates a more attentive and careful dynamic by the mechanics.

[HarborBus]

Thanks Gordon, that's very useful information for future comparison as I don't change my own oil.

[sticks]

Just received a letter from Liberty regarding their maintenance program. WOW!$13550/year.What is their labor charges their? At $200/hour, that would be about 60+ hours + fluids and whatever else. How can this be?

[treedoc]

Sticks I would have to ask for a detailed list of what they plan on doing! The figure may include things like batteries and tires amortized over their life time. If you do get a break down of cost let us know I would be interested. Rick

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Just received a letter from Liberty regarding their maintenance program. WOW!$13550/year.What is their labor charges their? At $200/hour, that would be about 60+ hours + fluids and whatever else. How can this be?

There is the possibility the $13,550/year fee is to be looked at as the premium of term insurance :confused: :rolleyes:


JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I adhere to a reasonably comprehensive maintenance schedule on my bus that is biased towards preventive maintenance. For example my tires come off at 6 years, my batteries at 5, my brake chambers at 5, and air bags at 10 and those replacement schedules are not based on condition, but age.

Give me $13000 a year and I will have responsibility for your coach reliability and my price includes parts. Liberty does not. Parts are extra.

In fact if anyone thinks that is a good deal to spend $13,000 at Liberty, plus pay for whatever parts are needed, get in touch with me and lets schedule the work. I can work one week a month, make a fortune, get to meet a lot of nice folks, and grin all the way to the bank.

I'm just kidding about scheduling the work. I don't need or want a job.

My Libertys have been so reliable I doubt if my annual repair costs have averaged more than $100. I admit I do my own work, but I still have to buy parts if they go bad. My biggest and most time consuming repairs are replacing light bulbs. Occasionally I will tighten cabinet screws. Once on the old coach I had to replace a toe space heater and weld my fresh water holding tank. I did replace a refrigerator this year (I did not choose to repair the old one) and I do have a battery expense every five years.

The chassis does require time and money, but that is planned and routine. There are fluid changes, filter changes, air system maintenance including the dryer, chasing air leaks occasionally, replacing air bags and brake chambers and Norgren valves, plus dealing with the occasional hub seal.

Spread over the years there is no way any bus should need $13000 plus parts in repairs or maintenance.

[truk4u]

My Libertys have been so reliable I doubt if my annual repair costs have averaged more than $100

A-1 - We need to talk!:p I really need to know the secret to 100 bucks a year for repairs...:rolleyes:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

It's simple. Nothing breaks.

If I disregard the new refrigerator (total cost including assistance getting it in, the refrigerator, the RO system $4000) and batteries which everybody regardless of conversion has to replace I haven't had to replace anything except the 3 Cruise Airs (less than $700 each, I did the install) and a toe space heater. 20 years of ownership this coming year.

The coaches had the same water pump, TVs, sound systems, etc. as when new. Never repaired a leaky faucer, replaced or repaired a drain valve, fill valve, water heater, propane furnace, Webasto, etc.

Virtually every dollar spent on maintenance and repairs has been on the chassis side on both coaches.

[rfoster]

Well -- I can see right now Its necessary to upgrade to the Liberty remote controlled powered poop shoot, so I can be in the Liberty League. I may even step up to the deluxe model - the one that don't stink.hehe

I wonder on one hand why Liberty would publish that kind of a deal, that would give some potential new owners & Shoppers heart failure. On the other hand - it they get a couple of takers, I suppose it helps pay their bills.

I have never spent that kind of money on repairs to the house or chassis in the coaches I have had. I just pick up Jon's take offs.:cool:

[jack14r]

Sticks,I have a question,is your bed set at an angle of about 15- 20 degrees from the side wall or is it square with the wall?

[sticks]

the bed is at an angle. Even with slide in you can walk around it. Nice feature when you're dry camping in a lot somewhere. My last 4 slide Travel Supreme was inhabitable unless slides were all out. Generator is so quiet I forget it's on. Still getting used to Webasto noises at night ,but not bad ,just new.Have fun!

[truk4u]

King,

A guy paying 1.5 Million plus wouldn't even sneeze over 13K!:p

Go Parkway.....

[jack14r]

Sticks,I sent you a private message.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

King,

A guy paying 1.5 Million plus wouldn't even sneeze over 13K!:p

Go Parkway.....


The guy spending $1.5 mil did not make that money by throwing it away. My guess is lottery winners might see that as a good deal. Or politicians, as long as it is not their money.

[sticks]

Liberty listed a rather complete list of things they would check ,but no mention of tire or battery replacement as included in the deal. I think it is just the labor charge for " checking" and I assumed fluid replacements. As I said before, " WOW!" I think I'm going to have to learn some new " skeels".

[garyde]

The fee includes a front to back inspection, cleaning, maintenance, and minor replacement. It does not include parts. It also does not include labor and materials for major repairs if needed.
I think for the individual who does not want to maintain their coach Liberty is offering a comprehensive service.
If you have owned the coach a while and don't look after all of the different systems, it can be a daunting task to bring everything back up to operational status.
The point is , maintain your coach and stay on top of everything, or risk paying big $$$ to have the pros do it.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Sticks,

I will wager the list does not include anything more than what I do to my coach every 5000 miles. Admittedly there are a lot of fluids, filters, things to check and do, and some things that need close inspection.

Routinely I change oil, all fuel and oil filters (bus and generator) lube the chassis, and then go about inspecting and checking. That involves checking fluids that were not changed such as coolant, differential, hubs, fan drive gearbox, etc. I drain the air tanks, I inspect all hoses for wear or signs of age, I check brake material thickness, I look carefully for evidence of hub seal leaks, I clean the engine and generator, inspect all belts, look at all electrical connections readily visible, look for any signs of leakage (air, coolant, oil, transmission fluid, or freon), clean AC filters is required, change ar dryer cartridge it required, change coolant conditioning filter, inspect tires for damage, unusual wear or foreign objects, and sanitize the fresh water tank if required or due.

The time or mileage related service items include such things as coolant change, differential fluid change, air dryer cartridge change, transmission fluid and filter change, etc. and these items are done as they are needed. Also I have a set schedule for replacing tires, air bags, brake chambers, batteries, Norgren valves, hoses, etc. If these fall into the maintenance schedule they are also done.

Since the bus is a hobby, I also monkey around with changes or improvements, such as inverter by-pass switches, a back up water pump, an extension to the fuel priming port, relocation of certain service items for accessibility (such as the Headhunter flush valve), changes to the plumbing to simplify connections, etc. If I valued my time at $100 an hour I would be hard pressed to come up with more than 32 hours for a routine maintenance event which I do every 5000 miles, or four times in a 20,000 mile year.

I can envision doubling that to include the items that are not 5000 mile events such as differential fluid change or coolant change for example, so with my schedule which os posted somewhere on the POG site it would be a real stretch to hit 65 hours total.

Now if they include polishing slack adjusters then I can see how the number is derived, especially if parts are included, but since they do not include parts I feel confident in saying that if you create your own schedule or maintenance derived from the Liberty and Prevost recommendations, and find service people that will care for the coach as though it were their own you can really do a good job of caring for the coach and do it for a lot less.

There are a lot of folks on the forum that do their own work. There are several of us that have our own pits. I doubt if any of us comes even close to spending that amount of money, including parts for upkeep.

BTW, just to screw with your head a little, when you put that price for maintenance in perspective relative to depreciation plus interest or lost earnings on the invested capital in your coach it will seem like the biggest bargain on the face of the earth.

[garyde]

Jon, here"s a few more;
The A/C systems; Cruise aire and OTR. Webasto Heating, House Batteries, Inverters, Water systems, Hot water tank, Creston and relay Lighting , Audio/video systems, interior nuematic systems, Slides, Awnings, Dash and Controls, Satelite, roof fans, Antennas, toe kick heaters, small motor for table, bathroom toilet,and bed lift .

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jon, here"s a few more;
The A/C systems; Cruise aire and OTR. Webasto Heating, House Batteries, Inverters, Water systems, Hot water tank, Creston and relay Lighting , Audio/video systems, interior nuematic systems, Slides, Awnings, Dash and Controls, Satelite, roof fans, Antennas, toe kick heaters, small motor for table, bathroom toilet,and bed lift .

I agree Gary, but apart from cleaning AC filters other than making sure those things are working there is not much to do. I do flush the AC condenser coils once a year, but unlike when I ran up in the snow belt there is not much accumulation of debris.

About a month ago I had a prtoblem with the dinette lights not turning off. I looked at the wiring info in the Liberty book, dertermined it was relay 17 in the AB bank of relays, changed it out and solved the problem. Total time about 5 minutes. First time one of those has puked in 5 years. Prior to that I have replaced two octagon based relays (bay door locks).

I would like to see how anyone can come up with a justification for the amount of money. However....for those who have zero interest in maintaining the coach themselves and they don't want to be bothered, there is nobody better to maintain the Liberty, than Liberty.

[garyde]

Hi Jon. Can you explain more about cleaning A/C coils. What is the process in doing this. Is this for the cruise air units?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Prevost recommends flushing the OTR condenser coils with a water spray from the back side periodically. I don't use any chemicals such as car wash soap or Simple Green, but just open the door and using my garden hose spray the coils. Since I don't drive this bus in the salt and sand covered winter roads up north not much comes out, but on the first bus I would get a lot of crud that had accumulated on the coil. Most of that was deposited from the road spray, not from being sucked in. I suspect driving on roads with loose dust or sand would suck in that stuff when the OTR is running.

The Cruise Airs I spray from the outside unfortunately because I cannot easily open them up and back flush, and only the two behind the bumper. Since I don't run Cruise Airs while going down the road they are nowhere near as bad as the OTR coils, but they do get grass clippings and bugs. I don't bother with the middle two because I just cannot get at them, but I don't think they get much in the coils since they are situated so the air is pulled vertically. Unlike the front two, they appear pretty clean, whereas the front two are sucking in any debris that comes past the bumper and lies on the metal floor pan. The motor on the fan in the Cruise Air condnesing units sits up off the bottom by a few inches so I try not to blast the water into it when I flush the front units but I do spray them. A compressed air blast might work, but I am afraid it might damage coils if it is too strong.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon, what is the general location of the bay door relays?

Is it the compartment above the steer?

JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

2nd bay, forward bulkhead, about halfway up and halfway back. Driver's side.

On my coach, and I presume yours they are side by side.

The bay door locks are overly sensitive to voltage and if the relay contacts are not clean and offer resistance cutting down voltage the bay locks will not function properly.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Thanks Jon, for the location and the tip!

JIM:)