Royal Wiring Diagram or answer needed. Calling Royal owners with diagrams.

[Jeff Bayley]

I finally got some professional help on my inverter issue yesterday. But not solved. I have some wiring diagrams but not what I need.

This is a 97 Royal with 2500 watt Trace Inverters. There's a output wire labled 25b going to feed the coach and is hot with A/C. At the house portion of the breakers, there is a matching wire marked 25b that feeds one half of all the house breakers with the other half being feed by the 2nd inverter. The wire has no voltage at that breaker box. There must be a junction box somewhere in between but I've no clue where. If I'm wrong, then it's a broken wire which I would think is unlikley. At least I made progress.

Does anyone have a clue, a diagram to help ? My fax is 977-270-3505 if so and it's an Efax so send all you want w/o worrying about wasting paper. I also don't have the proper owners manual for the coach and Monico in all there wisdom disposed of it all (retards). I'll take a stab at Royal Phonix but haven't spoken to them before and don't know how much free phone time and charity work they get bugged for. Can Pay Pal them for help if in fact they can help. This forum us usually better than the mechanics anyway.

[rahangman]

Hope you get what you need and get er back on the road...as a note, Efax is a great tool. If using the "Free" Efax, keep in mind they have a 20 page limit in any one calendar month or they will cancel you "Free" subscription and force you to pay a monthly fee whether used or not. Just as info...really nice service to have when on the go

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Jeff. Ed and I have a 97 Royale. I will get his attention to this in the am and possibly he could help out. He is in bed at this time. Will let you know one way or the other.
Sandy

[garyde]

I finally got some professional help on my inverter issue yesterday. But not solved. I have some wiring diagrams but not what I need.

This is a 97 Royal with 2500 watt Trace Inverters. There's a output wire labled 25b going to feed the coach and is hot with A/C. At the house portion of the breakers, there is a matching wire marked 25b that feeds one half of all the house breakers with the other half being feed by the 2nd inverter. The wire has no voltage at that breaker box. There must be a junction box somewhere in between but I've no clue where. If I'm wrong, then it's a broken wire which I would think is unlikley. At least I made progress.

Does anyone have a clue, a diagram to help ? My fax is 977-270-3505 if so and it's an Efax so send all you want w/o worrying about wasting paper. I also don't have the proper owners manual for the coach and Monico in all there wisdom disposed of it all (retards). I'll take a stab at Royal Phonix but haven't spoken to them before and don't know how much free phone time and charity work they get bugged for. Can Pay Pal them for help if in fact they can help. This forum us usually better than the mechanics anyway.

I don't quite understand what you are saying Jeff. You should have a 120 volt circuit from your breaker panel going to your inverter, the breaker should be labeled Inverter #1 or #2. Then , a 120 volt line leaves your inverter and feeds to a breaker panel that runs inverter loads only.
(The breaker panel is essentially divided into two halves.)

Which one is not reading power?

[Jeff Bayley]

I found the problem with the inverter/electrical finally !!. I'm posting pictures of the problem and expalin in 30 minutes.


Winnie and Toby and others-

I acutally don't use Efax. I just call it that since that service seems to be ubiquiodus and branded with the fax to email service. I have had Efax before however.

I have Fax Ave AKA now as Easylink I belive. I like the interface better and they also do broadcasting easier and customer support is better so look into that if you want. I found the link which I had saved which is very hard to hunt down on their web site if you try it. I'm not sure if they have a free trial but the logging it does to keep track of faxes and the control center, I find I like better than EFax: http://www.easylink.com/customerservice/7_1_support.cfm#pctofax

[Jeff Bayley]

Here are the pictures of the problem. The wire clamp you can see is burnt. It had small nails in it. I can only summize that it got nailed down a bit too close for comfort and it's taken 12 years and 80,000 miles to vibrate and make the short. The wire 25B wire that was in question was burnt clean through. Lucky it didn't start an electrical fire. I don't know how this could have been avoided. The J Class fuses I thought got incorrectly wired were not wrong at all. I thought the remotes should go off from disconnecting the jumper to those but Royale Phoenix reported / reminded that they only go out under that simulation when your on battery power and that shore or generator will keep the remotes on. Sound correct ?

I've got the wires cut back and now need to get the right wire and make a splice. What is the best way to splice these wires for long term. Their solid not stranded so I don't think solder is the way. I don't want to use a scotch lock either. What about using a wire nut to get the wires twisted together, then remove the wire nut and apply solder, then use a generouse amount of electrical tape ? Or will the wire nut's be sufficient ?

[Ray Davis]

Jeff,

2 comments. First, if possible, I would replace the whole wire, rather than splicing into it. If you cannot do that, I believe the correct code way to do things is to install a junction box, and run both wires into it, and use correctly sized wire-nuts to attach wires. Make sure that the junction box has the clamps to hold the wires on both sides to prevent vibration issues.

Second comment. I can't believe that didn't pop a fuse. That seems way wrong to me.

I think you are really lucky you didn't have a fire.

Ray

[phorner]

Jeff,

I agree with Ray. If you can't replace the entire run, I would make the repair by using a pair of junction boxes if necessary. You may not have enough slack to get by with one junction box.

If that didn't trip a breaker, I don't know what would. :eek:

[Jeff Bayley]

Thanks for the feed back. Sounds like I need to simulate a short and make sure the proper breakers are functioning. Can someone confirm if that makes sense ?

There is no room for a junction box. Those wires are covered up by a 90% wood trim piece and it will be a challenge to get the wood cover up trim piece back in even with the existing wires that need to be jammed back into place.

I'm faced with only using 3 proper sized wire nuts then. Replacing the whole wire is impracticable. The wires are jammed in so tight there is no way to run a new wire. I can barely get in to the work space to make a jumper with wire nuts. If this is mortally incorrect, don't hesitate to tell me. It's probable not impossible to run a whole new wire, but it would be extremely challenging.

[garyde]

Hi Jeff. Whatever you do, replace as much wire as possible from the inverter back to the good wire,(same wire type and size):) and then place a UL approved metal Box with cover. Splices should be twisted first and then use a Scotchlok wirenut(red) for each wire including the ground. Do not do an open splice regardless the challenges.:eek:

[HarborBus]

Jeff, First this should not have happened this is converter error. They stacked the wire which is acceptable but then they put the staple thought one of the wires and it has taken this long to work the rest of the way through the insulation around the wire :rolleyes:. Second I would be very concerned with the neighboring wire as it appears there was an actual fire there and they also got very hot and their integrity may be compromised. Third I would find the breaker in that circuit and replace it. I agree that the wire needs to be replaced and possibly some of the neighboring wires as well. I think finding the problem was the easy part, repairing it properly is much harder as is usually the case with wiring.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'll restate the importance of all of us opening every panel, every enclosure and every wire or plumbing chase as soon as we get our coaches to inspect what is in those areas, to see where there are shutoffs, or valves or any signs of something needing attention. Jeff was extremely fortunate and I am glad this is only a wire repair necessary.

[Jerry Winchester]

Jeff,

You can see why Jon checks his wiring when you look at the Liberty harness...........

5334

And this is just for the whorehouse / casino lighting system.

[tdelorme]

And Jeff, speaking of "whorehouse / casino lighting systems" if you are in OKC get Jerry to show you the mood lighting system in his Marathon.
I loved it, reminded me of the several trips south of the border I made as a teenager a few years back.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Actually the Liberty wiring is a little more complex. However, since it never needs repairs almost no one has ever seen Liberty wiring.

[rfoster]

Ted: I didn't know that Jdub's bus had kerosene lanterns and candles.

[Jeff Bayley]

Elliott - Yes the surrounding wire looks suspect but it is ok. The outside insulation has soot but not melted at all. I think I risk more by making a splice than leaving it in this case but thank you for not leaving any stone unturned.

Jon- I thought for sure you were going to poke me and say it was from my electrical doings with the pony gen for example. Dogged a jab from you on that one. I have been more cautious since you warned me about altering anything.

I didn't think to change the breaker. Will do now though.

Just to reiterate, ground zero for that near fire was EXACTLY where the staple was. Maybe the reason it didn't flame up into a full fire was that the wooden 90 degree kick board that covers everything up may have helped prevent oxygen from feeding it. ? Who knows but definitely got lucky.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jeff, if I thought for a minute I would be all over you on that one, but it was clear you were the victim of a manufacturing error.

I think the reason it did not set fire to the coach was it must have been literally cut by the staple, but the staple continued to complete the circuit.

As it aged however the staple started to fail to carry the load and on the moment of failure the electric arced, effectively opening the current path. Since the path was open and no electric continued to flow things cooled down in a hurry and your ignition source was removed. Good thing, because where it was located you had plenty of fuel to feed the fire.

I only pick on you when necessary. In this case I am really glad all you experienced was a burned wire. This could have been much worse.

[Jeff Bayley]

Here's the quoted reply I got from Royale Phoenix on the issue. Let me know who agrees. Tommorow or Sunday I'm run after the right parts and matching wire and get it mended after I'm sure of the correct solution. I emailed him some of the postings which is he partially gives his two cents on. Glen Berden is his name and he's the electrical go to guy there or at least it says on their web site.

(begin quote)
Hi Jeff,

Here are your options, most preferred listed from top down, and already mentioned by some of the postings.

1> Replace the entire run. Obviously this is difficult and time consuming, but can be done.

2> See if you can run a new wire from the breaker box to the splice, this will give you more slack as you can make this wire as long as you need. If you can pull the other half back a bit, maybe you can get it to a location where you can add a junction box to junction the two halves together.

3> Use a mechanical screw connector such as this, http://www.tnb.com/ps/fulltilt/index.cgi?part=32503 to splice the wires together. Be sure to use heat shrink over the connector or wrap it with insulating rubber tape.

4> The Romex Scotch lock connectors I mention are only rated for 14 and 12 gauge wire, so they are out of the question.

Judging by your situation, #3 is probably the most practical.

I’m not a POG member so I can’t post a reply on that site, but to those wondering why it didn’t trip a breaker it is because there wasn’t a short.

A damaged wire, pinched, cracked, etc causes an impedance (resistance) to the electricity flowing through it. This in turn causes heat build up at the damaged point, just as a resistor dissipates heat. This will not trip the breaker, as it is not a short circuit or over current situation, but merely a “load” to the Inverter. Had the wire melted the insulation and touched the ground or Neutral, the inverter would have tripped out and shut down. The burn damage is most likely due to heat over time and not a instant burn
(end quote)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

His recommendations make sense without seeing the coach. I agree #1 would be the best choice, but if pulling a new wire is too difficult then a high quality splice is a good solution.

[garyde]

Jeff, they are grey wire nuts for # 10 guage wire. 3M or Scotchlok.