Anybody seen Joe?

[rodburtonmusic]

Hey...you guys heard from Joe Camper? Wanted to share some info that I have on inverters...but have not seen him post in a bit..

Maybe he's knee deep in that whole bus conversion effort...to quote my buddy Forrest...(sort of) "He's a smary man...."

Rod

[dalej]

Rod,

The last time I spoke with Joe, he said he might not be posting for a while if ever. :(

[Petervs]

I believe there are some behind the scenes issues going on here......

If Paul Harvey was still around one day we might have gotten the rest of the story.....

[merle&louise]

That's a bummer. I like Joe. Hope he starts posting again.:confused:

[rodburtonmusic]

Well that would be way too bad...he's a good source of info and learning here...and that's one of the big reasons I'm here! :)

[Journeyone144]

I heartily agree with you Rod,
I will really miss seeing Joe here if he is really gone...can't imagine any such thing happening with all he was contributing to this Group...

I would love to make it to Branson in 2010..I'll be familiar with my new to me bus by then so please send me the dates and other info so I don't allow it to slip my mind being a year away...that could easy happen to me...lol...
Please Send to Journeyone@comcast.net and if you have any CD's I would like to buy one..

Warm Hugs Always Viv

Viv's Prevost...1988 Le Mirage Xl...
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/573654792oeTYiY
Learning About My Bus..
http://sports.webshots.com/album/573815861syDEFr

Wheeeooooo very first time I could sign this info....!!!!!!





Well that would be way too bad...he's a good source of info and learning here...and that's one of the big reasons I'm here! :)

[Darrell McCarley]

JOE knows Prevost busses. I would like to thank him for sharring his knowledge with us. Come back, Joe, we need you.

[jack14r]

I think that we just lost a good deal of pneumatic and chassis knowledge.

[Will Garner]

joe,

I feel like I have just lost the air out of my bags. I think our family has suffered a tremendous loss.

My guess is the POG membership would like to see you back. Besides, how can you leave us all hanging without seeing the completion of your interior upgrade. Sawdust said it was coming along nicely. We want to see it.

Your friend,

Will

[Sid Tuls]

What happen??:confused:

[dalej]

As much as he would like, Joe can not read posts.

It would be good if our webmaster would post rules and ethics of the forum, so we could know where the boundries are in PM's and posts.

In the last few months Lew and Joe have been removed from this forum due to printed replies and PM's, (one side information).

We are here on this forum to learn about our bus's and share stories and voice our opinions about current topics. If and when our view needs censored, we should be called on it from the webmaster or edited by him.

If and when we are in a situation of a bad or hurtful posting from a member, it should be handled in a professional manner.

We make friends at events and for the most part members are only involved in this forum to share. Sometimes the printed words are taken wrong and thus the posting person is shunned.

Joe's intentions were only to help fellow members and it came across as a undermine of sponsors.

There are always two sides to a coin and if the membership were allowed to view both, then we all could decide on the future of POG. I was always told by the webmaster that this is a member forum and let him know what we would like, to see POG grow.

This would be a good time to voice your opinions on Lew and Joe and the webmaster would and could decide on the future of POG.

Thanks for the space.

[garyde]

Both of these gentlemen offer more to POG than detract from it. I do not know the facts behind the vanquishing so we had better hold off judgement but I like Joe and even Lew .

[dalej]

That was a good point Gary, if Joe and Lew could voice there side then the membership would or could decide to voice their opinion on the matter, much like which is better a Liberty or Marathon. It doesn't take long for us Country Coach owners to keep quiet.

[Sid Tuls]

Hi Dale, just wondering were are the rules or regulations for posting on the POG site? I thought it was an open forum:confused: Just like to Know.

[tdelorme]

Interesting information Dale, thanks. The only other RV forum I have ever paid any attention to is RV Net which is owned and run by Campingworld. It has always amaized me the amount of Campingworld bashing that goes on over there and the fact that the forum ownership allows it. There are folks who post about a good experience they had at some CW, but the bashiers are quick to jump in and post some negative comment.
I know this much, Loc's spelling and grammer have gone down the crapper since Lew ain't around to strighten him out. Hey Skiffer, can we still pay our renewals in Lewbucks??
Momma always said, if you can't say something nice

keep your damn mouth shut!!

Momma was a little rough around the edges.

[Denny]

As much as he would like, Joe can not read posts.

It would be good if our webmaster would post rules and ethics of the forum, so we could know where the boundries are in PM's and posts.

In the last few months Lew and Joe have been removed from this forum due to printed replies and PM's, (one side information).

We are here on this forum to learn about our bus's and share stories and voice our opinions about current topics. If and when our view needs censored, we should be called on it from the webmaster or edited by him.

If and when we are in a situation of a bad or hurtful posting from a member, it should be handled in a professional manner.

We make friends at events and for the most part members are only involved in this forum to share. Sometimes the printed words are taken wrong and thus the posting person is shunned.

Joe's intentions were only to help fellow members and it came across as a undermine of sponsors.

There are always two sides to a coin and if the membership were allowed to view both, then we all could decide on the future of POG. I was always told by the webmaster that this is a member forum and let him know what we would like, to see POG grow.

This would be a good time to voice your opinions on Lew and Joe and the webmaster would and could decide on the future of POG.

Thanks for the space.



I'm copying Dalej's post for reference for those reading this. I just got off the phone with Joe. I consider Joe a friend first and fellow POGer second and I was upset by some of things I heard. I always thought this forum was a "members forum" and we can discuss and disagree with one another. We discuss Liberty vs Marathon, Prevost OTR vs Country Coach OTR, blatantly bash Country Coach's service, condemn the high price of Michelin tires vs Chinese tires and other manufacturers to mention a few. These discussion are very informative and present all sides of the situation. It is up to the reader to interpret the facts and make a decision. These conversations become very pointed and condemning to some manufactures but they are allowed to continue. I have NOT talked to Lew but in Joe's case he was removed from the forum because of his negative printed responses. Why was Joe singled out and not others? I own a Country Coach and am very proud that I have obtained the position to own a Prevost. But on this forum I feel that a Country Coach is the slime and scum that floats on a stagnant pond. We are all second class citizens if we do not own a Liberty. People can condemn a CC but Joe can't say something negative about a sponsor's poor quality of workmanship. It his only his opinion and not the forums opinion.

I wonder how much negative CC talk would be permitted if they were a sponsor?

Interesting is the fact that many of his negative comments were in Private Messages that are not so private. Big Brother is watching and reading private messages. Again, these were meant as private and not for general forum reading so as not to openly criticize a supporter. But if there is a problem with a sponsor's product then it should be made known so those owning or using it can be made aware of any shortcomings. This is not undermining a sponsor but presenting useful and valuable information. If a good sponsor is reading this forum then they should respond and explain why they do something the way they do. If it is a problem then they should correct it.

Joe was also criticized for working on POGers buses. I contacted Joe and had him do a lot of work on my bus with my helping him. To me, this was a very valuable learning experience. Maybe a sponsor doesn't like this but it is free enterprise and competition is good. This helps Joe in his present situation (being without a job) and helps me to learn by working with him. Plus his work is first quality.

Joe never meant to hurt anyone feelings. He expressed his feeling just as I am doing now and many others have done since this forum has been on line. Some people are better with words and others are more direct. We are both Italian and fluff is not part of our conversation.

I am not vindicating Joe but simply presenting some of what he related to me. If there is another side to the story than Jim you need to come forward and state your case. We all paid to be a part of POG and I am proud to be a part of it even though I don't agree with everything being said. This is the United States of America and we do have freedom of speech. We may not like what is being said but we do have the right to voice our opinions.

I want Joe and Lew back.

[rodburtonmusic]

I've had conversation with Joe as well...and I'm hearing the same info that Denny and others are posting. I've learned a lot from talking with Joe...and he's helped me learn how to care for my coach. He's also the reason...by the way, that I joined this board. He was very supportive of what goes on here...and a real cheer leader to get involved.

I know times are rough...and sponsors can be pains...but frankly, if this is the way this board is done, then my membership expires in March, and I'll bid you all farewell.

[dale farley]

I agree with most of what has been said in this thread, but if this situation is not handled correctly, it can explode in all of our faces.

[Jim Skiff]

I spoke with Joe several times in the past about purchasing liability insurance for his business. I suggested it, stressed it and at this point require it for him to be on the board.

The consequences of damage to a coach or worse...to a POG member or Joe are too substantial to be ignored. Should something bad happen, as it eventually will, the consequences would be dire.

My hope and belief is that something good will come out of this. Joe taking the steps to minimize his risks and move forward with his coach servicing business.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'm going to take what is likely to be considered an unpopular stance on this issue.

But first some background. Joe and I have had many hours of phone conversations. As soon as his problems were made public I helped push him towards generating income by helping other POGGERs with bus repairs and maintenance. We spent many phone conversations talking about inverters, Norgren valves, suspension systems, etc. I still support Joe and want him to continue to be a part of POG with respect to helping owners maintain their coaches.

I would like to see him back here.

But this entire topic needs to be put in perspective.

As Denny points out I have trashed CC at times for their singular lack of timely support, something I NEVER did about any converter until Ray Davis was badly abused by CC in his quest for help on his first coach. I spanked Liberty for failing to include a check valve or backflow preventer on certain coaches with HeadHunter toilets. Joe and I have been brutal in criticizing Michelin. I have been open in pointing out that owners of certain Marathons may have overloaded front axles and tires. All of that could be considered trashing converters and suppliers. I stand by what I said.

But there is one serious difference nobody has expressed. I am nothing more than a POG member expressing an opinion on an open forum. I am not in business repairing buses, I am not competing with services selling coaches or service or maintenance. I may have helped some folks with work on their coaches or offered advice, but I have never taken a penny for those efforts. Joe as a person who is doing business in competition with any of POG's advertisers who repair or maintain coaches is on a different level. First, he is competing with the very advertisers who support POG and keep it afloat. Those folks such as Liberty and Parliament and all the others have employees who have had formal training on our coaches, they PAY to advertise on the site, and they have liability insurance so their customers are protected.

Because of that I think they are entitled to a level playing field.

So from Skiffer's point of view he has a situation where his bread and butter is threatened by PAYING advertisers who feel it is unjust to allow a competitor to advertise for free, to compete without some formal training, and to do so without insurance (which they have to carry just because it is good business). I have no knowledge of who if any has complained about Joe, but I can envision complaints being made and Jim being put in the position of allowing Joe to continue as he was risking a serious loss of revenue, or asking Joe to at least make an effort to be on a more equal footing with the advertisers.

I have heard one side of this story, as have others. I believe until we can get both parties to the issue in the same room and hear them both speak we will not know the full story, only the one we are being told.

Joe is a Prevost owner. He qualiifes in that regard to be a POG member. I would hope that at some point he can pony up his $100 and join us. If he wishes to compete with advertisers I would say word of mouth is all he now needs, so if he could rejoin, he needs to be aware as a competitor he has an obligation to either stay silent on some issues, or pay as an advertiser, and address the training or insurance issue (that's between him and Jim) he should be a part of this group. There are a lot of us who may have done some business because of this group but not in competition with advertisers. I am sure some electric boxes have been purchased from my daughter, and I bet one or two cars have been sold, but none of those things dig into an advertiser's pockets.

Remember, one of the things that makes this a great forum is we can say anything we want within reason. But as soon as we become competitors with those who are financially supporting this group, and we are not paying to advertise, we should be very careful what we say and how we say it.

As to the privacy issue, there is none. On a site like this there is no free speech. We are at the mercy of the Webmaster who has a lot of differing points of view he has to protect. PM's are not private. I don't know why anyone should consider them private and if something needs to be expressed that is confidential it should be done via the phone, in an email or in person.

We can treat this as a popularity contest for Joe, or we can look at this as a knotty problem that has put Skiffer in a no win situation. I think the solution is simple. Joe and Jim need to communicate. We need to stay the hell out of this. If Joe and Jim can resolve the issues that is great, but if they cannot that is too bad, but it is not the end of Joe or POG. It just means Joe will not be on POG and Jim will have lost a contributor to the forum.

Flame away.

[Petervs]

Anyone can start a Yahoo group for free. People can join the group for free.

Jim Skiff has no business telling anyone how much liability insurance they must have in order to be allowed to be in the group. If he is concerned about the security of POG then maybe he needs to buy liability insurance?

We do not need membership fees or sponsors at all except to provide enhancements at Rallies and to help support Jim Skiff's lifestyle.

I am amazed that after being asked to state his position on this matter, the only posting jim Skiff made was to say Joe needed liability insurance. Joe's activities, postings, donation of service work to the POG charity auctions have all made this a better website. I have long been amazed that there are hardly never direct postings from some of the companies in this business, sponsors or otherwise. Having someone from Prevost, Marathon, Liberty ,etc post direct specific details of their companies position on technical matters would be very welcome. This is sorely lacking. I belong to several other Yahoo groups ( aviation oriented) where the manufacturers do chime in, it is a wonderful addition.

I believe Jim Skiff owes the group a better explanation.

[truk4u]

Bus repair is serious business! All we have to do is remember the tragedy with Jim Scoggins, our friend and POG member. If Joe is going to do repair work for hire, any reasonable person would agree that Liability Insurance would be a must. The person doing the hiring of Joe would also be negligent if he knowingly hired Joe without any Insurance, not to mention Mechanics Risk, Workmen's Comp or other local requirements such as a Business License. Does Joe have Health Care Insurance in case of an injury?

The above would be a gold mine for the blood sucking personal injury Attorney's. In this day and age, all parties involved would get sued and the legal fee's alone would eat you alive.

I would hope that Joe could pay his dues and get back on the board as a member and whatever he does outside of POG is his own business. He could handle that business via other communication means as Jon suggested.

I also don't think you can compare the POG/Stuff sites to some Yahoo Group, that's not even apples and oranges. Skiffer has it all on the line for these two sites being his livelihood and all I have invested is 100 bucks, so I'm in no position to dispute how he runs his business.

By the way, remember the POG rules, there aren't any!:cool:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This issue is not about insurance, but insurance happens to be an example of the uneven footing.

For discussion purposes only we had two POG members get repairs or maintenance done on their coaches, and as a result they spun their axles off, or ruined them beyond repair. The shops that did the work and stood behind it either had insurance to cover their liability or pockets deep enough to cover the cost.

Lest any owner think stuff does not happen, these two POG members can jump in and elaborate. Suffice it to say the cost to repair the repairs had to have been substantial. The differential ends were destroyed, necessitating expensive machining and welding repairs. Additionally the coaches were not towable so they had to be put on trailers. One of the coaches was severely damaged when being loaded. I would not be surprised to learn the repairs to the repairs were north of $20,000 when all was said and done.

There are other examples of repair facilities eating substantial costs. My brain is a little feeble but I can recite a few instances where there were some excessive costs incurred by somebody due to errors at the repair shop, ranging from the loss of a set of batteries, to other damage.

If there is no insurance the owner has to pay for the susbsequent damage from his own pocket, and then has to try to recover. Both parties are protected by having insurance. I doubt if having insurance is a condition of being a POG member. I see that as just business advice.

[ajhaig]

POG vs Yahoo may be apples to oranges, but the old expression used in the retail industry applies here: 'you're the best - until something better comes along.'

I think Jim has done a good job with the site and I'm sure he'll work through this.

My two cents - the site has become a bit too heavy into maintenance/repairs and less about the "Prevost lifestyle."

[Petervs]

The point is not whether someone working on a coach should have liability insurance or not.

The point is that a member of POG should not be booted off with the excuse given that he has no liability insurance, or that he should be a sponsor instead of a regular member.

[phorner]

Without question, by losing Joe, we as a group have lost a significant contributor.

I sincerely hope that whatever obstacles there may be can be overcome in a manner mutually beneficial to Joe and Jim.

Hopefully there is some middle ground that will allow Joe to continue to participate in POG and still satisfy the business concerns that Jim has expressed.

I'm hoping they can find a win-win solution.....

[garyde]

It's a slippery slope . Joe started out helping other POG members for a few Lew bucks. No big payday. It has morphed into a very small business.
He could have insurance but most of his customers participate in the repairs with him as I understand it. Do we carry Liability insurance on ourselves for working on our bus or helping a friend with his bus.
It gets down to how much of this work is Joe doing. Is it a main source of income or a side job? he is wearing two hats, an individual bus owner, and a go to guy for help in repairs and friend.
When does he cross over into a full-time business .
A Liability Policy can be a couple of thousand bucks. Does the amount of work and money warrant it.

[jello_jeep]

Well, as far as what Jim does, doesn't do, or require... This forum is a business and as such he would be the dictator.

Someone has to run the show, pay for the server, pay for the programming, recruit sponsors and keep it all afloat. I don't expect him to do it for free and sure don't begrudge him making a profit if or when he does.

My first fun was Kerrville, and I couldn't figure out how someone could put on a weeks worth of eating and camping for what was charged, less than 25% of a big commercial rally.

He has made sound decisions in the past and I don't doubt he will make more in the future.

I have used Joe for service, he has stayed at my house and I like him, and have recommended him to others. He knows a great deal, and when stumped he is not afraid to use his resources to figure things out

I am not privy to what happened between the two of them, but I hope they can hammer it out. If it has something to do with finances, maybe Jim feels an obligation to be silent about it in the interest of the confidentiality all involved and I don't feel he owes me an explanation for his decisions anymore than I would owe him one for mine.

As Jon points out, when you start charging for service the rules would have to change to some extent, as liability gets spread far and wide these days.

I hope to see Joe back, this too shall pass..

Let cooler heads prevail (lets all have a Martini).

[Denny]

The last couple of days have been difficult for all of us; we all need a laugh.


A man walked into a very high-tech bar. As he sat down on a stool he
noticed that the bartender was a robot. The robot clicked to attention
and asked, "Sir, what will you have?"

The man thought a moment then replied, "A martini please."

The robot clicked a couple of times and mixed the best martini the man
had ever tasted.

The robot then asked, "Sir, what is your IQ?"
The man answered, "Oh, about 164."

The robot then proceeded to discuss the 'theory of relativity',
'inter-stellar space travel', 'the latest medical break throughs', etc...

The man was most impressed. He left the bar but thought he would try a
different tact. He returned and took a seat. Again the robot clicked
and asked what he would have. "A Martini, please."

Again it was superb. The robot again asked, "What is your IQ, sir?"

This time the man answered, "Oh about 100". So the robot started
discussing NASCAR racing, the latest basketball scores, and what to
expect the Dodgers to do this weekend.

The guy had to try it one more time. So he left, returned, and took a
stool....Again a martini, and the question, "What is your IQ?"

This time the man drawled out "Uh....‘bout 50".

The robot clicked then leaned close and very slowly asked,

"A-r-e.....y-o-u…..h-a-p-p-y…..w-i-t-h…..O-B-A-M-A ?????

[J.C. Watts]

My two cents - the site has become a bit too heavy into maintenance/repairs and less about the "Prevost lifestyle."


I would agree with that statement 100 percent. At times it appears that all our toys are nothing but problems that need fixing all the time. Perception is reality and I have to be honest that my perception and mine only, is that the site appears to be a mechanics forum most of the time. I honestly like to hear about the trips and see the great pictures you guys take. I am not a big poster but I am sure I am not the only one who signs on and hopes to read about some fun stuff rather than mechanical issues.

[Tully]

Joe drove to my house and picked me up. Drove me 1 1/2 hours North and helped me drive my new bus home. Spent and entire day helping me learn the bus. I had no idea who or what he was about. He made the offer.

I did not know Joe. He asked for "Zero Money"....

He simply contacted me when I was posting I had found a bus. He was and is a very real and honest person.

Joe has a true love for these "campers" and it always shows.

I had repairs done one time and they were 100% correct. No guessing.
Getting it right the fist time. Not getting paid to learn.

For whatever it is worth- I will continue to work with good people.
Joe is good people.

I was not aware of the matter with Joe. I figured he was busy. Will call him and let him know he still has my vote.

This site still rocks! It is full of info and the people are good people
My pennies worth.

Tully

[bluevost]

There have been many comments made, but Jello's was right on the money. This was a business decision and we aren't owed any explanation. Tough business decisions are made daily.

Come on Joe, do it right. Get a business license, a Fed. I.D. number, insurance, pay your POG dues and come back.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I would agree with that statement 100 percent. At times it appears that all our toys are nothing but problems that need fixing all the time. Perception is reality and I have to be honest that my perception and mine only, is that the site appears to be a mechanics forum most of the time. I honestly like to hear about the trips and see the great pictures you guys take. I am not a big poster but I am sure I am not the only one who signs on and hopes to read about some fun stuff rather than mechanical issues.


This site is driven by the POG members. Any member can discuss any topics. I often am concerned about a few of us who have been posting on P-Stuff before POG, and then who became the core of POG in the beginning having an impact on other members. We all have had coaches for quite a while, we know one another, we have probably gone through the range of mechanical problems, and we likely have traveled in our coaches extensively. So we carry on insulting one another and occasionally answer questions. My point is I think it can be intimidating to newer owners or members. The only way you will enjoy this site to the maximum is to post topics of interest to you.

Please don't worry about topics others post, and for sure don't let our horseplay here stop you. You can drive the direction of the posts by contributing. If you feel you are too new to post don't worry about it. Every one of us was new at one time.

I think the reason for what appears to be mechanical issues dominating the site is because we are driving complex assemblies of parts and systems down the highway and those things need to be repaired from time to time. What you may or may not notice is the mechanical questions are rarely new. As new owners join and they experience problems they ask questions about topics that have previously been covered. We can tell them to do a search, but that is not fair to them. When a person has a problem with their coach it is very important to them and since I know the feeling of being inneed of help, I for one want to provide someone the help they need.

It would be nice to see more pictures, not necessarily of just buses with a nice sunset in the background, but of the people who make up this site doing things in their buses, and visiting places I might want to go. I like seeing some of the great photos of places others have gone such as Dale's excellent photos (both Dales). I would love hearing stories of people's experiences. So to make your wish come true why don't you guys who want less mechanical stuff and more lifestyle stuff start posting those things. I will join you and say I want to see more stuff of interest to the women. It is a lot easier to sell a trip to Mama if there is a lot of neat stuff from the woman's perspective. All guy stuff doesn't cut it.

If you want to see a great lifestyle Blog, look up Lloyd and Pam's site. They epitomize the thing you are talking about. But keep in mind, sometimes Lloyd has mechanical problems so he asks questions here.

[JIM KELLER]

Nice post, Jon.

[mike kerley]

Off line for two days and look what happens!!

Lots of pro's and con's on members rights, but unfortunately, Jim Skiff still holds "most" of the cards. Its his forum for our use and I'm gratefull for it.

That said, I dont agree with Joe being removed. I believe the issue was more pressure from advertisers than insurance and find that to be regrettable (if its true). I state that after talking to Joe and reading Jim's posting.

From what I've seen, most of the work Joe did was for other than monetary exchange. Without question his postings on the forum were very helpful to many of us and cost us nothing other than our time and membership. I do not know him personally, he has never stayed at my house or done work for me, but, until I see otherwise, he has my vote for a decent, honorable man who genuinely loves working on his bus and helping others with theirs. I hope Joe and Jim can converse as adults and mend the torn fence.

As for Lew. I know Lew is attempting to sell his bus, so it may not be a big deal to him, although his dry humor is missed and I'm sure he misses reading every ones posts. I dont know that he would come back if he was invited.

This feels like dealing with family! Notice the similarity. Its never all hugs and kisses.

[Jerry Winchester]

How about we move on from this one and find something else to obsess about.

5267

[mike kerley]

Jerry, So, your first comment is "no comment", shuffle off? What flavor have you been drinking?

[Denny]

I think something needs to be said about Joe and why he got involved in the bus repairs business. Many newcomers may have never heard the story.

Joe was an owner/operator truck driver meaning he owned his own truck and worked for a trucking company. The company Joe was working for hauled gravel, slag, stone, dirt, etc. for road construction. Joe was traveling slow and a car ran into the back of his dump trailer killing the driver of the car. Ultimately, Joe lost his drivers license for two years which will be up in April, 2010. A truck driver without a license means no work.

Joe went through an extremely difficult financial time with no income. He sold his truck and what ever he could to just survive. He tried to sell his bus but that never happened. As I said, Joe was having an extremely difficult time.

Joe has always been very mechanical and maintained his own truck and equipment. Trucks and buses have a lot of the same components so out of necessity Joe started doing work on buses to survive. He did it to put food on his table and to keep bill collectors away from his door. I have the most respect for Joe and what he did. The survival instinct kicked in and he provided for his family.

To compare Joe's bus business with other bus businesses and converters is not fair. Yes, he should have insurance to protect himself but do you pay the insurance premium or buy food for your family? Do you buy insurance or make your house payment?

As a business owner, I have disability income insurance, liability insurance, malpractice insurance, umbrella policies to cover umbrella policies and a host of other insurances. Did I have all of this when I bought my funeral home 20 years ago? No. I was concerned with keeping my head above water not winning any races. Joe was in survival mode and food was more important than many of the common business practices we use today.

And now you have some of "the rest of the story"

[MangoMike]

I get a lot of feedback from my customers and staff on how run my restaurants. All input is appreciated and digested.

But at the end of the day one person has to decided what's best for Mango Mike's based on a global view. And I always ask myself: "What's best for the business?"

I'm sure Jim has asked himself that question and is responding accordingly as he wants nothing more than to have this organization be as strong and lasting as possible.

[dalej]

And...

We pay $100/year to belong to what I thought was a private forum, not so I find out.

Are the sponsors allowed to view comments and use it to improve there position in the marketplace? A quote from Joe " we are in a fishbowl, they are reading our every statement and....and skiffer is reading our Private messages".

I just think we need to have published disclaimers i.e. who is getting free memberships and why. Is there a hidden board of directors? who are they?

Jim Skiff said to me, "this is your board" meaning the members. Why doesn't it feel like it.

Lew gets the boot..
Joe gets the boot..
who's next? and we pay for this!

Maybe this forum needs to end and just use the free site.

[dalej]

"What's best for the business?"


Mike with due respect,

What is good for the customer is good for the business. If you have one unhappy customer, they will tell 10 others. If you have one happy customer, they will tell 3.

In the last week, I have heard of two unhappy customers on POG. It makes me wonder how many emails and phone calls they have had.

[dalej]

And,

Just because we aren't discussing changing out a fan belt or which is better, doesn't mean this is a bad thread.

Last I looked it was viewed over 1000 times in 3 days.

[J.C. Watts]

I get a lot of feedback from my customers and staff on how run my restaurants. All input is appreciated and digested.

But at the end of the day one person has to decided what's best for Mango Mike's based on a global view. And I always ask myself: "What's best for the business?"

I'm sure Jim has asked himself that question and is responding accordingly as he wants nothing more than to have this organization be as strong and lasting as possible.

Well said. That is the bottom line. In any business you are not going to please everyone. It just will not happen. But it is much like politics. You just have to please the majority or as this site is concerned, the owner needs to please as many as possible, realizing that some may get mad, some may not understand when he makes a decision. The gentlemen being discussed surely are not the first nor will they be the last to be banned from this site. I am sure other past members have a side to a story that has not been heard but it does not matter, as the owner made a business decision. I am sure he would hate to lose any member but if one fails to understand or support his decision then I am sure he thought about that and realizes you may not want to be part of the site anymore. But that is a decision each person would have to make.

[J.C. Watts]

Are the sponsors allowed to view comments and use it to improve there position in the marketplace?



I would assume and note I said assume that most sponsors can view comments. I am quite sure the money they pay which I am sure is more than the $100 we paid, would certainly entitle them to member privileges. Just because you do not see them post, I think would mean nothing. I would believe that they are members like us who can read post whether we post or not. This is only my second or third time I have posted but I have been reading so I am sure sponsors could do the same. And since this site is a business, no matter how we or some want to view it, it is a business and sponsors are just as important as the members, if not more so. There are many websites that do not have a forum like this one but yet have sponsors. Advertisers are key in this type of business.

[Petervs]

As a result of all these back room shenanigans I am considering dropping my membership. If Skiff does not come clean with a complete explanation I see no reason to keep sending him $100 each year.

As I said before, these yahoo groups are free, we could easily set up a new one. No one has to buy a server.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Peter,

There are two sides to every story, and unless you have gotten both sides of this issue privately you are in the same boat with everyone else.

I have been in touch with both Jim and Joe, and if the emotional issues are separated, what is left is both guys have agreed to disagree because they are each looking out for their respective buiness interests.

There is nothing that could be called backroom shenanigans. I think it is sad what has happened, but I know both guys made the decisions they made because they felt the decisions were best for them. It is not something secretive nor is there any skulldugery. Jim or Joe are entitled to say or not say anything. I think we would all do both guys a favor by not interfering.

[gmcbuffalo]

I didn't realize Joe hung up a sign and was doing business. I thought he was a guy who had tools and helped the owner turn the wrenches. If people are dropping off buses for him to fix then he probably needs insurance.

So Charter members of POG what is the difference between POG and P-S besides $100? Why can't what we do hear be done on P-S for everyone to see?

I too read other website forums and they have some rules published. Maybe we need to publishes the unspoken rules, so we not step on our ****.

What is the issue with Lew?

Many times the only reason I get on the computer is to read POG.

GregM

[michaeldterry]

<snip> I would love hearing stories of people's experiences.

I vote for more stories from Jeff Bayley! C'mon Jeff - I know you've got a zillion of 'em! Dish, man! :D

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Greg,

This is only my opinion. I was a poster on P-Stuff and still post there. When POG was formed it was a private site so we had a little more freedom to address things and we could post pictures.

By being private I mean it was not open to the public and needed a user name and password to enter, neither of which were available unless the user spent his $100.

POG has turned into a family. P-Stuff folks were just familiar posting names, but in POG we have had the opportunity to meet each other face to face, we have dropped in on one another when we were nearby, we have had impromptu mini rallies for not reason other than to get together once again, and we have helped each other in more ways than we can count, not only with mechanical issues, but in many other ways.

Joe was doing business and he was doing it to put food on the table. There were a lot of us that had encouraged him, helped him, hired him and supported what he was doing. He was doing a lot of work for a lot of POG members and he travelled across the country to do so.

[Darl-Wilson]

There is an old saying, often attributed to Albert Einstein, “Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance.” That ode seems applicable to this family feud. There are some folks that want to over-react and splinter this great group and others, like Jon W. and J.C. Watts that seem to preach temperance.

My take is, "this too, shall pass" and soon be just a memory. Maybe Jim and Joe will resolve their differences. Maybe they won't. Does anyone really know what caused this squabble? Is it any of my business? Until I know I am not going to make a judgment nor am I going to leave a group that has become much like family. Which brings up another thought, something like cutting off ones nose to get even with ill-deeds of the face.

So with that I am going to surrender my baseball bat to Jerry Winchester and quit pounding on his pony.:rolleyes:

Darl

[rodburtonmusic]

I didn't realize Joe hung up a sign and was doing business. I thought he was a guy who had tools and helped the owner turn the wrenches. If people are dropping off buses for him to fix then he probably needs insurance.




The difference is that if I take my coach to Joe and he does work, that's a transaction between us. Has nothing to do with this board...which by design in a place to share info and make contacts. The folks running this are the ones with the sweat equity in it...they make whatever rules they want, and that's their right. It's also mine to choose whether I stay a part of it or not.

Hanging this on a decision that Joe needs insurance is a farce. Just say that the sponsors are not happy with someone here getting repairs in that they could charge a premium for. Let that be that...at least it would be direct.

As far as the private posts being read, whatever. That happens on any site where this is set up. The only reason I'd send a PM is so I wouldn't bore others here with my ignorance!

I enjoy the info I learn here...and enjoy reading about the adventrues. But frankly...this isn't the way you treat someone who has not only driven business to your site, but also is a valuable resource. So..my right is to simply not renew.

Sorry this has generated so much heat...though it certainly is the 1st post I've listed that has gotten this much attention!

[michaeldterry]

My take is, "this too, shall pass" and soon be just a memory. Maybe Jim and Joe will resolve their differences. Maybe they won't. Does anyone really know what caused this squabble? Is it any of my business? Until I know I am not going to make a judgment nor am I going to leave a group that has become much like family. Which brings up another thought, something like cutting off ones nose to get even with ill-deeds of the face.

So with that I am going to surrender my baseball bat to Jerry Winchester and quit pounding on his pony.:rolleyes:

Darl

I'm with Darl and feel that we would all do well to follow his lead on this transient issue.

[Tully]

I find that in life and many things in general the majority rules.

If you have someone off the street read this thread I feel their first thought would be that Joe is a very popular guy.
A good guy. A well liked guy.

This person would not even know Joe. They would see that a majority of the post were "possitive" with very few
negatives. They would cheer - We Want Joe Back -

Now in business, that is Utopian. More people liking and using your product than the few who do not. As stated, you cannot keep all the masses happy.

I doubt this site will fold because a few leave. On the same course- I am certain that with the events in play we will tread a little more towards shore and not in the deep waters. I would hope that PM's are just that. Private.

If all Joe needs is insurance I will set him up with a BOP and be done with it. I own my insurance agency and will foot the coin to do this. I have saved thousands by getting it done right the first time with Joe.

He does not need to carry work comp. It is just Joe working with no employees. So, he can elect to reject
him self off a policy nor would one be needed.

As to him carrying health insurance? Not our business.

A hand shake is the contract with Joe and most times that
is even better than a written contract.

Im done with my take on all of this. Would be best to lock
this thread down. Every web site seems to have the thread that will just not die. The thread that separates everyone...

Tully

PS
Let's not forget that the reason we joined the site was to learn and many times trouble shoot our problems. Just having your bus looked at for a problem- $100.00 gone without repairs every starting. So the fee each year in my book is a great savings. Most members can point you in the right direction right out of the gate. $ saved.

[dalej]

Tully,

What ever a BOP is, that's right nice of you.

Thanks!

[rodburtonmusic]

I don't know what a BOP is either...but it sounds like a good thing and not all that painful? :)

[Tully]

A BOP is a Business Owners Policy. It is really geared for a small business. Covers liability aspects for Bodily Injury and Property Damage to others. Also, extends liability protection for a office or shop along with a small endorsment to cover tools of the trade.

Policy is not too much in that the premium is around $500.00 a year. Could be a little lower or a little higher.

A lot of commercial policies are based on number of employees and payroll / receipts. With Joe being a one man show- the whole process is very easy. There is no need for a Federal Id number. He is not a S or C Corp, not a partnership. He is an individual with a DBA. Even if he were a Corp. - still very very easy and not much $.

I will drop him a line when I have some time on my hands.

Tully

[Jon Wehrenberg]

That is an extremely generous offer and will certainly give Joe and his customers a great deal of peace of mind to know if anything should happen they all have protection.

However, communicate with Joe. This is not about insurance. Insurance may play a part in this affair, but there were other issues and the bottom line is both parties have to come together. The other issues are really between Joe and Jim and I don't think any of us should be interfering. It is the two businessmen that need to resolve this.

Your offer however may be the catalyst to help make it happen. If nobody else says it, I will...Thank you.

[Tully]

Jon:

There is a handfull of people on this site that without saying are the Masters of Information. You being one. Joe being one. This is "IMO" only. But I am certain many agree.


I hope this works out for all of us.

Tully

[Sid Tuls]

I also want to say thanks for your offer to help somebody out. I don't know Joe but sure miss his posts!!! If you ever pass through CA. the steaks are on me:D or if I'm in Amarillo.

[Petervs]

Jon you alluded to other issues besides insurance. Jim Skiff has not mentioned anything else so us outsiders can not solve the unmentioned issue. I have not spoken to Joe or Jim and am basing my point of view on what is on the POG site.

My real problem with all this is that here we have a nice website where we all learn and share info. Everyone seems happy. Then one day the "chief" removes one or two members who in my opinion have added a lot of value to the site. No explanation is given at first, then a very limited one that seems to be a red herring anyway. What does POG care whether Joe has liability insurance or not?

Why should we let Jim Skiff have the power to remove anyone without some explanation at least? Publish the rules and we can follow them. Since there are no rules, if something is out of bounds it should be in the open. If we can not operate in that civilized way then I do not want any part of it.

As I said before, if no clarification is forthcoming from Jim SKiff I will not be renewing.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Peter, stirring this pot is not going to resolve anything. It is not up to me or you to do anything, and it is not up to the parties involved to tell us anything.

I am sure that when you and I were running our businesses we made unpopular decisions, and I'll bet neither one of us felt compelled to spill our guts to anyone regarding the details. If Jim as the owner of this site chooses to tell anyone or not tell anyone that is his decision. We (you and I and even other members of POG) are not going to solve this because sure as hell is not our place to solve this difference of opinion between Joe and Jim.

If you choose to not renew because Jim and Joe opt to not discuss their business decisions that is up to you. I will miss your brand of humor and wit and your ability to get past the BS and get to the heart of an issue.

[J.C. Watts]

Thanks to the few new friends I have traded conversations with. Peter you bring up an interesting point about written rules. I mentioned in a previous post that I am sure the gentlemen in question here were not the first to get booted from this site and would certainly not be the last. Well according to some there are indeed others who were banned from this site and what rules did they break? Was there something written that said they violated something? Yet I am told that some members actually contacted the webmaster here and pushed for some to get booted. And according to what I have heard they did not violate any written rule. Yet off they went. This matter needs to be dropped. If the webmaster says he is out, then he is out. It seems others were shown the door, and if it was good enough for them then it ought to be good enough for the gentlemen in question. There should be no "Well BUT" about any of them. I said it once and I guess I will say it again, these gentlemen will not be the first, nor the last to get banned from this site. All this about not renewing, I agree with Jon that is each person's decision. A decision was made about a member's status and I assume the right decision was made. We could go on and on about why someone should not get the boot but it is over with. If there is any change of heart then I guess the webmaster will reverse his actions. My question would be then is it fair for some to get a reversal and not others?

[truk4u]

For those of you that are threatening to quit, go ahead an do it! It's your decision to leave, threatening to quit isn't going to change anything and damn sure won't bring Skiff to his knee's, if thats your motive.

Let this thread die and allow Jim and Joe to work it out.

[Darl-Wilson]

Here is the rerun....


How about we move on from this one and find something else to obsess about.

5267

[Jerry Winchester]

Jon, I agree with not stirring the pot and as much as we would all like to just move on past this, several folks seem to believe they have the right to all the facts and to make a determination themselves.

And as many have already tried Jim Skiff in the court of public opinion, my dealings with him over the past three years have been nothing but above board and honorable. He has let this forum move all over the spectrum with very little interference and I appreciate there not being a lot of rules. He owes me no explanation or reason for his actions. That is between him and the other parties.

Who is he to require liability coverage for someone soliciting work from this board? He has every right because even a shopping center lawyer could trace a fatality or property damage back to a connection made on this board. I have been in court all day fighting a frivolous lawsuit. Three jurors said so in interrogation today and we dismissed by the plaintiff. I have only spent the price of a new XLII on defense so far. I get sued all the time for just being near an issue; you don't have to actually do anything they just sue everyone on location.

As for another board, Peter I PM'ed a few folks looking to raise a $100 to send you so you can move on and start your Yahoo forum.

I had to shut the donations down at $1200, so enjoy yourself and I'll buy the guys at POG 8 a round on PeterV.

JC. - Take a knee and sit this one out on the sideline. Just because you cheated death once doesn't mean it will happen again.

[rickdesilva]

Jdub,
great post count me in for $200. I can only assume that Joe is a great guy as everyone has great things to say about him and my contact with Skiffer brings me to the same conclusion about him. Besides the potential liability problem, getting insurance makes Joe's business situation legitimate. This helps the situation in everyones eyes. Speaking of eyes, my mother used to say its all fun and games until someone loses an eye........then the lawyers come out. I'll be more than happy to educate anyone about the effects of non insured auto repair shops/ sub contractors. Lets do what we do best, help Joe out, head to OKC and if you don't like the forum.....addios.

[jello_jeep]

1200+200=
1400

JJ raises the pot $1,000...

Total 2400.

Peace & quiet.....

Pricless

[jonnie]

I know a few of you guys and that this is a great forum whether you have a Prevost or are a wanabee. There are only 2 dogs in this fight and that is the way we should leave it!!!!!

[gmcbuffalo]

There may be only two dogs in this fight but Jon and Jerry what do the rest of us do just keep running around the yard until we run out of chain and get jerked by the neck and we're gone?

A board rules notice of some type would be helpful. If what JC say is true some people on this board have more pull then others or know some of the rules.

Most of the people on this board have been in business and have made major discisions, it's hard for people like this to be kept in the dark.

I agree it's Jim's site and his to run.

All you business guys who say is you make the final say, how many of you fired someone without an explaination to rest of your employee's? Especially if it''s because someone violated company policy. Without an explaination any employee will wonder who's next. nIt's called good management.

GregM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'll offer up the rules if that is what has everybody concerned.

#1. Be nice to one another on the forum

That's it. We can debate. We can disagree. We can have different opinions, but in the end we need to treat each other with respect. We need to be nice. Except to JDUB. :rolleyes:

I think there are people on this forum who have "pull" to use your term. They are the people who work with Jim behind the scenes to offer advice, to help with the extensive planning that goes into making a rally successful, that put on seminars, that write articles, and from time to time just shoot the breeze with Jim because he is more than the guy that owns this site. He is a friend. Those folks aren't special in that they aren't running the show, it's just that they make a contribution and as such are usually communicating with Jim and the others who are also working for POG routinely.

Anyone here can have "pull". Volunteer to help out for the next rally. Offer Jim advice on how to improve the site. Be willing to write some rules if you feel they would be a good thing. I don't think we need rules because we are adults and we should know the difference between right and wrong, but there are some folks that will step out of bounds whether we have rules or not. So maybe that is a good thing to have rules for the people who need them.

I did fire people and refused to discuss their termination with other employees. The only people who needed to know why there was a termination was me and the one who got fired. But usually everybody was smart enough to figure it out anyway.

But when all is said and done this entire issue is not about a member who made a nasty post. Joe made great posts and to the best of my knowledge never attacked anyone or did anything wrong on the forum. This is about the business side of POG and since Jim is POG and it is his business, and the decision on how to run the business is his, he needs to be permitted to run his business.

Can we kill this thread? Will that be OK with everybody? Lets vote so Jim doesn't get blamed for killing it unilaterally.

[tdelorme]

"Can we kill this thread? Will that be OK with everybody?"

YES, the sooner the better

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

An old man in his mid-eighties struggles to get up from the couch then starts putting on his coat. His wife, seeing the unexpected behavior, asks,

'Where are you going?'

He replies, 'I'm going to the doctor.'

She says, 'Why, are you sick?'

He says, 'Nope, I'm going to get me some of that Viagra stuff.'

Immediately the wife starts working and positioning herself to get out of her rocker and begins to put on her coat.

He says, 'Where the heck are you going'?

She answers, 'I'm going to the doctor, too.'

He says, 'Why, what do you need?'

She says, 'If you're going to start using that rusty old thing, I'm getting a Tetanus shot!' :D :D :D

THE END


Gary S.

[dalej]

I like how you substituted Gary and Peggy with He and She. :)

I just think it goes along with your bus too, you can't even get your slide out. :)

[rfoster]

Boy Dale! Thats way harsh. He- He-

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Good one Dale.

And stated perfectly for a family site.

I hope Peggy understands when everyone inquires about Gary's slide when they are in OKC.

[jello_jeep]

I just think it goes along with you bus too, you can't even get your slide out. :)

I hear just the SEALS for the slides are 5K... I would use your slide often to keep it excercised if it were me :D

[J.C. Watts]

JC. - Take a knee and sit this one out on the sideline. Just because you cheated death once doesn't mean it will happen again.

That's nice. Real nice. I appreciate your concern.

[sawdust_128]

For those interested, rumor has it that Lewpop no longer owns a coach.

Good luck Lew.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I'll second that!

JIM

[hhoppe]

I'm very very proud of you POGGERS getting through your first, and I hope last, bruhaha using great concern and respect for one another. We all tour the US and Canada preaching the values we have found working together in POG.
I'm extremely happy to view the combined strength we have developed.

10/2 Let the party begin again.

[Sid Tuls]

Hey Harry, ya never got back to me on that free dinner and are ya going to bid for me @ auction in OK:confused:

[Ray Davis]

Sid,

I'll be happy to bid for you at the auction! I think I've got your cell number ....

Ray

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Sid, I'll be happy to bid for you at the auction! I think I've got your cell number .... Ray

Ray, maybe you can take pictures of the items at the auction, and send them to Sid so he will know what he wants to bid on, in advance of the auction?

Sid it really is too bad you won't be here. The auctions are usually the craziest and lots of fun and excitement. Be sure and give Ray your Platinum Credit Card # so he can do you justice...:eek: :D

Happy bidding.

Gary S.

[Ray Davis]

I think we can probably arrange that!

[jello_jeep]

Sid, I wasn't aware you were up for auction ?? :D



Hey Harry, ya never got back to me on that free dinner and are ya going to bid for me @ auction in OK:confused:

[Sid Tuls]

Warren, me either:rolleyes: but then again Harry could buy me to help him polish his bus:confused:

[hhoppe]

Sid if you would just read your email and answer mine, you may be able to buy us a couple of those black and white steaks tomorrw night. Send me your cell number. I would bid on your polishing my bus, but you said bid on you helping me polish my bus. I know how much help I can expect from you so I'll pass.

[Sid Tuls]

Sid if you would just read your email and answer mine, you may be able to buy us a couple of those black and white steaks tomorrw night. Send me your cell number. I would bid on your polishing my bus, but you said bid on you helping me polish my bus. I know how much help I can expect from you so I'll pass.

OK I sent you an E-mail with all the information now allyou have to do is call me;) @ 559-901-6426