House Batteries Not Charging

[grantracy]

While underway my house batteries are not being charged from the engine driven alternator. The batteries do charge when the Genset is running and/or on shore power. The chassis batteries are charging and there is 28+ volts on each pole of the isolator but nothing to the house batteries...any thoughts?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Tell more. Are they normally always charging while underway or is there a switch you have to throw?

[lloyd&pamela]

I have a 1991 Country Coach and the house batteries are not charged on it from the engine alternator. They only charge from the Gen or shore power. Your newer coach may charge from the alternator.

Set your inverter to shut off if the charge on the house batteries go to 12 volts. Otherwise it takes forever to recharge them and you can damage them if they get too low. Four Lifeline 8Vs are expensive to replace.

Hope this helps some. I am a newbie and Joe is a real expert in these matters.

[dalej]

I think at some point someone changed your guys bus's. The house and chassis batteries should be charging while driving or fast idle.

It just doesn't make any sense that you can't drive during the day and dry camp at night.

[garyde]

Hi Granvil. What makes you believe the engine alternator is not chargng your house batteries? A better question may be why are they not charging now.

[Coloradobus]

Perhaps one of your sacrificial breakers has blown. Our's are called Klixon Breakers, and we find them near the house batteries. They are about 2 in X 3inches in size and have twin terminals on them. We had ours blow in the last coach and the house batteries would only charge by shorepower or genset. just a guess

[grantracy]

I never noticed if they charged by the alternator or not...I got a "low house" light and was told to check the actual voltage on the electrical panel ( which showed 24 v) there is definitely a provision for charging as I have an isolator which splits the charging. I think you may be right about breaker...just cant find it. There is no switch that I know of,looked over schematic which showed a disconnect which I checked.

[JIM KELLER]

Granvil, Usually Jon would be all over this but I know he is busy right now. Yes one of your alternators charges the house batteries. Start at the source and work backwards. Access your house batteries and put a a voltmeter on one of them. Start the Bus with shore power disconnected. Observe readings before starting and after. Do the same thing with shore power. Check all breakers in and around the inverters. Could be as simple as the voltage regulator that is paired up to the alternator has quit or an inverter problem.

Using the proper procedure, you can force the alternator into a full charge at the regulator to determine if the alternator or regulator is bad.

[mike kerley]

Granvil, Follow Jim's advice and I'm sure you'll know a lot more about your electrical system when your done than you did when you started. Seems that no two coaches are exactly alike, and you've got to figure out (or pay a technician to do it for you) just how yours is configured.

Its just a matter of following wires and checking breakers and fuses.

Mine has two alternators, one for the chassis and one for the coach. Not the same voltage output (one 12V, one 24V) . I dont know how yours is designed, but you'll know soon.

Wish I could help more.

[grantracy]

thanks for the help...I have done all of what you have suggested. There is a device in-line called a "cable limiter" nobody seems to know what it does. I am guessing it stops the batteries from back feeding. In any event when the alternator is turning there is 28 volts at the isolator and only 16.5 at the isolator side of the limiter I guess there must be a short somewhere in line.

[mike kerley]

Granvil, Are you certine you have only one engine driven alternator for all the batteries, chassis and house?

How many house batteries do you have and what size are they. What does the voltage on them read, engine off and engine running fast idle?

Do you have a drawing for the house electrical system?

Have you looked at every circuit breaker in the engine and electrical compartment and checked power on both sides (12 or 24 V)?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Granvil Ed is there with you he has a Vantare and is very knowlegable on his stuff. I think it is exactly the same wiring as you.

Let him help you reprogram your inverters, wont take but a few minuites and you really need to know how to do it anyway.

Every time you disconect them from the batteries you need to reprogram them to choose the source of charge.

All you Vantare owners take note, ol Sawdust has very quietly become a bit of a resident expert on those conversions.

[grantracy]

thanks for all the replys, Ed is here and been helpful. I believe it is a faulty cable between the isolator and the bus bar. Mike: it is a single alternator ( I believe 270 amp) it is only the 24v side that is a problem ..tomorrow I am going to a prevost authorized serice center to see if they can confirm my suspicions

[0533]

Hello Granvil,

Often times Prevost Car will not be much help if the problem is on the house side. They will spend your $ for sure looking but it is best to carefully evaluate the source for all charging before heading out to Prevost car, this includes the following: With a single 270 AMP alternator that is responsible for charging both the chassis and the house (marathon older units the same way) there has to be some type of sensing capability for the alternator to sense demand from the house side.

On a Marathon single alternator hookup the 270 AMP alternator senses the house side not the chassis side for charging purposes. In other words follow the alternator wires to the regulator, from the regulator the wire (Prevost wire code) should go to the chassis main shutoff at the rear C/S back door in a Prevost configuration, but if the sense wire from the regulator is sensing the need for a load at the house side the wire will be spliced from a Prevost coded wire into a converter coded wire and attached to the House main 12/24 volt shutoff, you will be able to see this connection if you follow the wires. once you have established this, then you can follow the wires to the fuses (inline) to the Isolator and if installed the Load Balancers and on to the inverter chargers to the house batteries. some where in this chain of events there must be a fault. I would also take a look at the regulator to make sure it is supplying the correct output from the alternator, make sure the house (converter fuses) shutoff fuses are OK.

In most cases the reason for moving the sense wire from the chassis side to the house side for charging is because the house will call for a charge and have a greater demand before the chassis side does while underway if you have AC loads on in the bus and do not have the generator running.

[grantracy]

Thanks for the reply, resolved the problem. Was a combination of a faulty cable( compromised somehow) and the cable limiter reducing voltage by around 4v. Replaced cable and tossed limiter( was not on original schematic anyway) Bruce did I see correctly that you sold your coach?

[0533]

Sadly I do not have a bus to worry about any longer, will be picking up a ride soon though, need to get out of my Toad.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Rumor has it you have an "H", remember I asked, "where in the H are you".

Sorry to hear of your plight, but I have a feeling you are happy ;)

JIM

[0533]

I saved enough money in repairs and upgrades to cover the next stimulus plan. The only thing I really regret is not being able to purchase new 365 tires and wheels. My wife said My tire thing was like her shoe fetish and about the same price.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Well it's done now and I'm happy for you. Sorry though that you didn't get to complete your trip!

JIM

[ajducote]

Okay Bruce, it is time to spill the beans for the rest of us. Where are you guys? What happen to your bus? And what is the new bus and when do you get it?
I guess this thread has gotten way of track...

[0533]

Hello Andre,

We are relaxing in Nova Scotia, forced to spend endless hours staring at the ocean, taking hikes, Kayaking, biking on the trails nearby, eating huge volumes of Mussels in white wine, Seafood Chowder and other unpleasant stuff.

We had not planned on selling 0533 until the season was over, had even told the salesman we would not be able to show it, turned down 4 showings, was not making friends of my sales rep. He called me and said he had a deposit from a customer who new the bus, its history, and the previous owner. wanted it in 3 days, would pay cash and just wanted a look see and drive away, YES or NO was all we had to say. You know the rest. That easy.

Still evaluating our bus/coach options, really want to head back out, but do not want to hurry, rush out and make a poor decision in effort to have wheels under us. Am weighing my need to Boat and Bus at the same time again verses placing all into a Bus, great time to buy, although the selection is getting thinner by the day across the board, Marine and RV, nobody is manufacturing no banks are lending at rates that make much sense, and dealers are left with very little inventory, it does make for interesting times.

We will see all of you at some point, your not done with us yet.

[ajducote]

Bruce,

Thanks for the update. I think your statement "it does make for interesting times" pretty much sums it up. Good luck on the search for a new ride. Hope you guys get everything you want. Have fun and enjoy the rest of the summer.

[merle&louise]

I tried starting my coach today and it wouldn't start. I tested the 2 starting batteries: one tested 13.8 volts and the other one tested 2.4 volts. I did not disconnect any of the cables. All of the cells had water in them. The batteries are 4 years old this month. I checked for loose connections; everything was tight.

Did I test them incorrectly?

Sounds to me like the second battery is dead.

Should I change both batteries since they are wired in series?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Tuga,

Voltage is only one indicator of a battery problem. Obviously a battery reading as low as 2 volts has a problem. While four years is not a very long time in battery life it is much closer to the end of life than the beginning.

Not knowing your coach I don't know if the batteries are used as 12 volt in parallel or 24 volts in series. It makes a difference because if used as 24 volts apart from the battery problem there might be an equalizer problem.

Yest terminals need to be kept clean, the top of the batteries also so voltage doesn't leak to ground through a trail of corrosion.

To test your batteries they do need to be disconnected regardless of whether they are wired in series or parallel. I would not only test for voltage, but I would use a battery tester to determine the battery condition. A battery tester will tell you if the battery needs a charge or is junk. Before testing the one with low voltage I would charge it separately and see if it even takes a charge and holds one.

You say they are wired in series, so just so there is no doubt, in series it means one negative post on one battery is connected to a positive post on the other.

[truk4u]

Tuga,

They must be 8d's since there is only two of them and since you have a series 60, I'm sure they're hooked in series. Like Jon said, you have to remove enough cable to isolate each battery. Also, is there a chance you got your meter hooked up bass ackwards, the bad battery usually drags down the good one. Check the voltage at the equalizer on the 12 and 24 lug.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Not all Series 60's are 24 V are they? Not talking about Prevost, but Series 60 engines used in Newells and trucks.

[merle&louise]

Jon,

The batteries are connected in series: negative to positive to negative to positive.

I am going to disconnect the cables today and try charging the bad battery with a separate charger to see if it will hold a charge. I will also purchase a battery tester to test the specific gravity of the cells.

I read on the Newell site about a fellow who had a similar problem. His starting batteries were weak when cranking. Turned out that his problem was a blown 600 amp fuse that was connected on one of the batteries. Newells have a battery merge switch on the dash which allows you to use the house batteries in addition to the starting batteries to start the engine, generator, or send power to the inverter. When he replaced the fuse everything worked perfectly.

I don't think that is my problem. I believe that my #2 starting battery has a bad cell. Using the specific gravity battery tester should confirm my guess.

If the testing proves that the battery is bad should I replace both starting batteries?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Batteries should be replaced in sets. From a battery manufacturer's owner's manual is the following quote: "Always use batteries of identical make, model and with the same manufaturing date." That quote is from a section relating to multiple batteries.

Since you are confirming the batteries are in series, I would look at the equalizer as being part of this potentially. I am not familiar with how Newell is set up, but speculating here, if one is 13 volts and the other 2 volts the equalizer may not be doing its job. When you maesure across the 12 volt and 24 volt posts on the equalizer the 12 volt side should be 1/2 of the 24 volt side within 1/2 volt. There is more detailed information in the Vanner owner's manual but that is a quick check. You do have an equalizer, correct?

[merle&louise]

I am pretty sure that I do have an equalizer, I remember seeing a Vanner blue device in one of the bays. I will check to see if I have a Vanner equalizer owner's manual in my paperwork binder.

Hope it is a simple as re-setting the breaker and equalizing the batteries.:D
I'll check it out this afternoon.

Thanks for the help. :D

[merle&louise]

Tuga,

They must be 8d's since there is only two of them and since you have a series 60, I'm sure they're hooked in series. Like Jon said, you have to remove enough cable to isolate each battery. Also, is there a chance you got your meter hooked up bass ackwards, the bad battery usually drags down the good one. Check the voltage at the equalizer on the 12 and 24 lug.

Truk,

They are 8Ds. I will check the voltage at the equalizer. Thanks.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Tuga,

Again I am offering an opinion with no specific knowledge of your coach.

If you have an equalizer the odds are it is a Vanner, and the odds are equally good that it will be adjacent to the chassis batteries. I am making an assumption here that you have both chassis and house batteries.

If you have an equalizer it will only be because you have loads on the chassis batteries that are 12 volts. If your whole chassis is 24 volts, including lights, DDEC and anything else powered from the chassis side then you probably do not have an equalizer.

The only reason I bring up the fact you may have an equalizer problem, that may have created a battery problem is because the two batteries in series have such different voltages. An equalizer will work to keep both batteries equal (duh!), and that means all the way down as well as up in voltage.

Look for a reset button on the bottom of the equalizer and charge the batteries independently. My guess is that 2 volt battery is dead. I don't know if your coach came equipped with a Vanner monitor, if it did it should have alerted to a battery imbalance.

[gmcbuffalo]

Tuga
In your set up are you pulling 12v off of one battery and then 24v off of the two, in other words do you have 12v draws and 24v draws off of the starting batteries. I you are not pulling 12 and 24 volt draws you may not have an equalizer is the circuit.
GregM

[Pete]

Tuga,
If you do have bad batteries, please let Karen do the supervising during the change out this time, she should not be lifting the batteries again...I don't want anything to hinder her craw fish pie making!
Pete

[Coloradobus]

Tuga, If you're changing out the batteries, be sure to take off you watch and ring. I have experiences that will curl your hair and fry your fingers:eek:

[merle&louise]

[QUOTE=Jon Wehrenberg;58619]Tuga,

Voltage is only one indicator of a battery problem. Obviously a battery reading as low as 2 volts has a problem. While four years is not a very long time in battery life it is much closer to the end of life than the beginning.

Not knowing your coach I don't know if the batteries are used as 12 volt in parallel or 24 volts in series. It makes a difference because if used as 24 volts apart from the battery problem there might be an equalizer problem.

Yest terminals need to be kept clean, the top of the batteries also so voltage doesn't leak to ground through a trail of corrosion.


Jon,

My entire coach is 12 volt.

I was wrong, the batteries are wired in parallel (jumper from #1 batt neg to #2 batt neg and jumper from #1 batt pos to #2 batt pos). I'll learn the difference one day; I've been hanging around DANSS too long.:D

I purchased a specific gravity meter to test each cell. One cell in each battery tests bad. Looks like new chassis batteries are in my future.

I read the owner's manual for the Link 2000 monitor and inverter/charger control. It explains how to EQUALIZE the batteries using the Freedom 25 inverter/charger. I do not want to do that without talking to Newell first.
The manual warns to turn off any DC sensitive loads before equalizing; since I am not sure how to do that - I'll just pass for now.

I'll try to explain how my coach is wired. All of the DC accessories are 12v.
My coach has 6 - 8D Lifeline Concord AGM glass mat batteries for the house. The 2 - 8D chassis batteries are wet cell batteries connected in parallel. There is a BATTERY MERGE switch which allows all 8 batteries to be charged. When the BATTERY MERGE switch is on, the house batteries are charged first, then the chassis batteries are charged. When dry camping; the BATTERY MERGE switch is turned off. When the generator is started the BATTERY MERGE switch must be turned on in order to charge the house batteries. The BATTERY MERGE switch in the off position prevents the chassis batteries from being run down so that the generator or engine can be started to charge up the house batteries.

I also have a separate Heart Interface echo-charge; it has a red wire labeled starter battery, a red wire labeled house battery, and a black wire labeled ground. The only warning light on it is a red thermal shutdown. It is NOT lit. So I would think that the echo-charger is working properly.

Today, I disconnected both batteries, cleaned the terminals, and tested the voltage. #1 tested 11.4v #2 tested 12.7v So I guess #1 battery is a dead battery; and the #2 is not much better.

Jim,
Thanks for the warning; I don't wear any rings or a watch.

Pete,
I'll let her man-handle those 8Ds. She can still cook while installing the batteries. The girl is talented!

Greg,
Sorry I can't answer your questions. I'm not good with electrical systems.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

12.7 is an OK voltage and 11.4 does not mean the battery has pooped. It may not get a charge due to corroded terminals.

I would charge it up and see what happens.

I need to see how your bus is set up, but it sounds like instead of an isolator to allow automatic charging when the engine runs you have a manual switch arrangement.

[merle&louise]

Jon,

My coach will charge all 8 batteries (6 house & 2 chassis) from the alternator thru the ignition switch when the engine is running. If the generator is running or if shore power is connected the BATTERY MERGE switch must be ON to charge the batteries. Actually, the only time I turn off the battery merge switch is when I am dry camping. Then when we start the generator, I turn the battery merge switch back on to let all of the batteries charge up.

I spoke to Newell this morning and they advised me to just buy 2 new batteries. The logic is if each battery has a marginally bad cell it will only get worse. Better to have strong fresh batteries than marginal ones. They don't recommend equalizing the starting batteries.

Is it still recommended to use wet cell batteries for starting? I remember reading that the heat from the engine is not good for gel cell batteries.

[Alek&Lucia]

Tuga,

Get two brand new, wet cells 8D's, from Interstate, and you will be happy for few or many years to come.
Had similar problem many Moons ago with my Holiday Rambler Limited with CAT 3208T.

Alek