Pulling the alternator on 8V92

[mike kerley]

Hello All,

I have our bus in the Florida Detroit shop for oil change and transmission service. Its has had an oil leak for some time which I'm told is coming from the area of the alternator. Mechanic does not feel he can access it from the bottom and want to pull the wardrobe and floor in the bedroom to get at it from the top. Not sure if its the seal around the alternator or the oil line feeding it at this point.

Any thoughts? Anyone done this. I remember Jon posting something about this at one time concerning his old bus.

Also have a minor leak from the "front seal" which I'm told will require pulling the bumper, motor mounts + more and expect 10 hours labor +. Sound right? Still waiting to find out what "minor" is. I will be at the shop later today. Its the first time I've left our coach with a service shop!!!!

I appreciate everyone's input.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Mike,

This is a jaundiced view of replacing stuff like front and rear seals.

Get a firm price. Then compare that cost with the amount of grief you have at the end of a long drive cleaning the back of the bus or the toad. If you do not have a lot of time invested cleaning things after driving all day then it puts the amount you are going to spend in perspective.

I had a rear seal replaced at one time and within a year the oil on the bottom of the bell housing and the oil pan was just as much as before the work was done. It takes a lot of cans of spray cleaner to add up to the amount I spent trying to pay someone to replace that seal.

I stock spray cans of brake cleaner and they work like a charm washing away any oil that may have leaked.

[mike kerley]

Jon, Looks like were going to live with the front seal leak as well as a very minor one at the cam shaft on the rear. These are not bad.

The oil leak by the alternator is more of a problem. Puddle now under the bus when I stop for several days. Everything in the area is covered with oil. I'm pushing them to identify that leak (seal of line) and at least give me an estimate on time to repair. They are doing the oil change now and cleaning the area, then we'll go from there.

Your info on changing the alternator on your old rig was was a big help. Thanks.

I flew old airplanes for years that always had a puddle of oil under each engine. Just never parked them in a friends driveway. I've got a plastic shield I put down under the coach, but its a mess.

[Petervs]

Since we are discussing leaks here, I noticed nobody is complaining about the leans these days.

I am a firm believer that the leans is a wintertime phenomenon. The o-rings get cold and just do not seal so very well, then the air leaks out and the bus leans over.

On the other hand, in summer, the temps are nice and warm and the seals work great, presto, no leans!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I would be suprised if your leak was that oil line but I suppose it could happen.

You have 2 potential leak points other than the line (I had both and significant) The flange that you attatch it to the gear case by and the back cover plate.

3 out of the 4 bolts on the flange are easily acessable, ours were very loose, and without removing the alternator but tightening the ones I could I stoped that leak to where it will accumulate dirt but it does not drip.

The back plate is the simplest of the potential leaks.

While you are in there tighten the attatching bolts on the flange for right angle oil filter assembly, there are more easly gotten things to check and snug up if you will be in there. I had oil coming out of every oriface. Many were that way. Its just a good old American 736cube V-8

The back plate can be done from underneath and the flange bolts ??????? I think I remember that 1 or more needed to be tightened thru from the bedroom floor

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Access through the bedroom floor helps a little, but it is 100% doable from beneath the coach. The key is to be able to stand so a pit (not the best choice) or the lift that allows the height of the coach to be varied is needed.

On the internet at sites such as this one http://www.elreg.com/category/83.aspx you can get all the seals and repair parts for the 50DN.

[mike kerley]

Thanks Jon and Joe,

DD are back at it today. They will not be going through the floor as the hatch is partially covered by the rear cabinet and would require pulling that loose to lift that panel. Bad design.

They (Florida Detroit) are going to use a thinner mechanic today!

I'll let everyone know what the outcome is.

$$

[Jon Wehrenberg]

When that skinny mechanic gets that alternator loose I hope he can support its weight.

FWIW, from the time I pulled in to get the alternator replaced until I pulled out of the Prevost shop was less than 6 hours. I think it was close to 6 hours the first time they replaced it, and around four the second time. The first alternator replaced lasted long enough to get me 400 miles to home. When I went back for the second one they knew exactly what they had to do.

[mike kerley]

New info from Florida Detroit. The oil is coming out of the + terminal on the alternator. They are removing it to determine what has failed inside to allow the oil to exit that point. Sounds like a rebuilt alternator is in my future..

It will be a few years before there is any rust on this mechanic. He is well oiled!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Mike that post has a double nut one to keep the post tight and sealed to the housing and the other nut holds the cable. The seal is a nylon bushing that keeps the lead from grounding. If the stud wiggles at all it will also be leaking oil.

If ya pull the first nut and cable the lower nut can then be tightened possibly stoping that leak.

Sounds like you have a new one coming.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Mike, the web site I previously posted is selling brand new Delco 50DN alternators, your configuration cheaper than I can get one rebuilt and they do not require a core. That's where I got my new alternator. They call them Elreg alternators, but as I posted previously, they are made in Canada and they have Delco Remy cast into the parts.

If you alternator is working and all that is leaking is the main post, I agree with Joe and would just repair that. I would get a gasket kit because when the rear cover is removed I suspect the gasket that is on there will not seal as good as before.

[mike kerley]

Update on alternator repair.

The casting around the + terminal has a crack in it allowing the oil leakage. I'll not allow a patch, so were looking at Jon's link and Fla Detroit parts for a replacement. Looking at parts catalog, there are many different configurations, so I want to be sure we get the correct one. Best estimate now from Fla Detroit is $1,100.

No core available because the case is cracked. No ideas on how it became cracked. Work in progress.

Meanwhile, fresh oil, filters and transmission fluid and filters. Still cleaning oil of the the bottom of the coach>

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Mike,

I still have my old alternator. No cracks in the case. It's yours if you need it. They have a hefty core charge if I remember. Unless you buy the new and cheaper one that does not require a core from ELREG.

[dalej]

Well that's right nice of you Jon!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I was going to repair it and keep it as a spare, but I haven't yet so it is available. I think Mike will find he is actually better off to by the new one like I did ($864 if I remember right). Everybody else was more expensive for used or rebuilt ones and they did require a core.

[mike kerley]

Jon, Thanks for the generous offer. I've talked to Fla Detroit and informed them that its possible I could have core for them. Of course, they were less than excited.

As we live aboard full time, this is very inconvenient and were doing what we can to "move this along". A rebuilt unit is coming from Tampa and will be here tomorrow morning. Hopefully installed and were out of the shop Friday.

We've emptied the refrigerator and freezer, moved all of our valuables (both of them) out and are living out of suit cases until this is finished. Neither Karen or I like not having our home. This is the part of "full timing" that is not enjoyable. We've always stayed with our coach while service was performed, up until now!

Again, Thanks for them offer. If the old unit was not so heavy, I'd find a way to ship it to you for parts as it was still working fine.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If you need the core just let me know.

I am sure you could sell yours on ebay. A crack can be repaired by JB weld if need be. It will not be perfect, but for someone with an old church bus or something like that it may be just what they need.

My core is a splined shaft and not the gear driven. As far as exchange however, a core is a core and since there are less of the two cycle engines the shop would probably rather have mine than yours.

[Toy Box]

Mike, which Fla DD shop are you in? We are located across the road from the shop in Ft. Lauderdale. Can we help? call 954-646-4490 if so.

[truk4u]

Mike,

If they're going in through the bedroom floor, how about taking some pictures for us poor 8V slobs that may have to do a compressor.

[mike kerley]

toy box, Were in Ft. Pierce. Hope to have it completed this afternoon.

Truk, They wanted to tear out the furniture on the back wall to access the floor panel. No Thanks! They were able to remove the old unit from the bottom as Jon outlined, with some effort. I'm hoping they never need to get "on top" of our engine.

Not to get it back together. Free of all the old oil and grease....

I'll try to load the old unit into my car and store it somewhere???? Gotta do it without Karen seeing it!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

"With some effort" is an understatement.

There is no problem getting the fasteners loose or disconnecting the wiring or the oil lines, but then the mechanic is faced with 105 pounds (or maybe more) that he just cannot get in a good position to handle. I do know from my experience with one failing immediately after replacement, when the second alternator was removed and replaced the grunting and groaning that took place the first time was almost non-existant the second time. The key is for the mechanics to know exactly how to handle that dead weight.

The weight is not the sole problem. That alternator is full of oil and if it is mishandled the mechanics get an oil bath, and the oil is black and ugly, the main reason you never let them get at it from the top.

[phorner]

Mike,

Wish I had known you were in Ft. Pierce, as we're only 10 minutes away!

If you need anything, or if I can help in any way, give me a shout.

[mike kerley]

Thanks Paul, Were just setting and waiting. Monday should tell the tale.

Then, we get a good look at the engine seal in that area that's also leaking. I'm told its minor. If so, we'll live with it.

FYI, the mechanic had to pull the exhaust from the generator in order to get the alternator down around the transmission. It was a tight squeeze with a large, heavy and oily monster. Zack (the mechanic) will not be happy if this cookie fails....Nor will I!

[mike kerley]

Yet another update on the alternator replacement> Pardon the long winded post.

Picked the coach up at Fla. Detroit Tuesday afternoon late. It had been road tested and the bill was waiting. Technician had left for the day.

I fired it up and found a good charge on 24Volt meter but only 12+ a little on the 12 volt side. Coach batteries were almost dead at 10.0 volts. I had turned off the inverters, but domestic power was turned on for the test run during the previous week and not turned off. Numerous lights and "devices" were turned on which drained the house batteries.

I aggreed to take the unit home and plug in to get the batteries up. Ran the generator going home and plugged in immediatly. Saw no charge on the 12V side while driving home.

By 11PM, we had the inverters charging and the house batteries were back at 13 volts. Continues to charge all batteries overnight hoping both alternators (the old and the new) would work in the AM with good battery voltage.

No joy on the 12 volt side at 7 AM with the engine running, so back to Fla Detroit. I had already checked every breaker and fuse imaginable, so explained the issue and suggest they check to make sure the new alternator was the correct one. They assured me it was and the 24 Volt charged proved it was working OK. I questioned that what they were seeing was from the small, belt driven alternator, but they insisted I was wrong.

At 10 AM, Troy, from Liberty (who they do much work for) explained to them the two alternator configuration and assured them that what they had changed was the 12 Volt alternator, not the 24 volt and it seems they had installed a 24 in its place. SO, we are back to searching for a correct unit to start the process again. Should go much quicker the second time around and they have accepted the blame for the mistake.

Jon, the firm you recommended has told Fla Detroit they will only rebuild my old unit, no new stock or rebuilt in stock. The old housing had been "patched" by the previous owner with JB Weld or something similar where the case was cracked. No rebuild of that case. Fla Detroit wanted to take the guts out of my old unit and put them into the new case, which I objected to because I do not wish to pay $1600 + many hour labor for an old alternator with a new case. They also mentioned converting the 24V unit to 12 V which I know is not a simple task with wire size and number of windings being a big issue.

The good news is, no oil leaking after changing the alternator case and having the front seal replaced (it was leaking worse than I originally though). Almost like having a Series 60.

Film at 11.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Apparently the 8V92 alternator configuration is no longer being produced so based on what you have found, Mike anyone with an 8V92 and the big alternator that has alternator problems will end up with their unit rebuilt, or and exchange for a rebuilt one.

If it is any consolation we have been seeing this occur with parts for planes. And as the replacements get more scarce the prices go out of sight. If the market wasn't so small someone would have a business opportunity if they came up with a belt driven alternator driven off the fan drive or the bus pulleys, and a plate to cover where the big alternator now sits.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Also....forgot to mention and this may prove important. Some coaches use two alternators and while they are both working it is important for the owner to figure out which one is supplying power to the house and which to the chassis. You may think it is obvious but it is not necessarily so.

If and when an alternator pukes a technician not familiar with bus conversions may make an assumption about which alternator has failed or the voltage of the failed alternator and what has just happened with Mike could happen to you.

[mike kerley]

How true, Jon. The small, belt driven alternator was changed to provide power to the chassis system by Country Coach. That's a 24 volt unit. The larger direct drive unit was rewired to feed the house system with 12 volts. We all thought what was being changed was the chassis unit, but it was not. There was a large placard on the back door showing chassis charging system and specified 12 volt with the four chassis batteries outlines. That turned out to be a 24 volt unit, belt driven.

the large alternator is connected to a 12 volt regulator mounted on the rear bulkhead. That's the device that keeps the 12 volts steady for the house systems. Right now it is keeping the 24 volt alternator from toasting everything down stream. I'm not running engine anymore than absolutely necessary to get the unit back to Fla Detroit as I dont want to cook that regulator.

Fla Detroit messed up in not checking part numbers closer. It turns out the Tampa branch had been setting on this alternator for some time and were happy to ship it out. Looks like Ft. Pierce branch will now be the owner.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Mike,

Disconect the field wire from the regulator and it will turn the alternator off so it cannot damage anything. I am making a huge assumption here that they have the large regulator, which at this point may have been fried. The guts to them are also available from Elreg.

You might check these folks for your alternator and regualtor as well.

http://dixie-electric.com/catalog/9801-50DN-003.pdf

[mike kerley]

Jon, How about I take all of them off? Will that just open it up?

I've located (with out Fla Detroits help) a new case for my alternator at "Bus Service, Inc. in Kansas. For a couple hundred $'s, I will test and move the old parts to a new case and reinstall. Full refund on the wrong unit from Florida Detroit.

These guys in Kansas were great. Rebuilt unit from them was $850 + $500 core charge, but the gentleman on the phone said "why dont you just buy the case, its easy to move the parts over". I've elected to have a rebuilder locally test and move the components, but I'll have my old stuff back with a new case, if all goes according to plan. Worse case senerio, I'll put the old parts in the new case and ship it as a core, and buy the rebuilt, but that is projecting a bit.

The group in California wanted $2,200 for a rebuilt, which they would discount $600.00. shipping according to them was $300.00. The case will be much cheaper to ship and only from Kansas. If this regulator is fried, I'll be asking FLA Detroit to replace it at their expense.

[dreamchasers]

How true, Jon. The small, belt driven alternator was changed to provide power to the chassis system by Country Coach. That's a 24 volt unit. The larger direct drive unit was rewired to feed the house system with 12 volts. We all thought what was being changed was the chassis unit, but it was not. There was a large placard on the back door showing chassis charging system and specified 12 volt with the four chassis batteries outlines. That turned out to be a 24 volt unit, belt driven.

the large alternator is connected to a 12 volt regulator mounted on the rear bulkhead. That's the device that keeps the 12 volts steady for the house systems. Right now it is keeping the 24 volt alternator from toasting everything down stream. I'm not running engine anymore than absolutely necessary to get the unit back to Fla Detroit as I dont want to cook that regulator.

Fla Detroit messed up in not checking part numbers closer. It turns out the Tampa branch had been setting on this alternator for some time and were happy to ship it out. Looks like Ft. Pierce branch will now be the owner.

Mike,

I own a 1995 XLV, Country Coach. After reading of the converter swapping the Prevost alternator functions, I went out and traced the wiring on my unit. Sure enough, the smaller alternator (Delco) mounted in a CC supplied housing (the coach AC in mounted on the same bracket, above) is connected to the engine starter (Series 60). What a surprise!

I recently purchased a new Elreg replacement for what I thought was the original Prevost service (Not installed yet.). Humm.....

My alternator case is leaking oil. I replaced the front seal, but did not resolve all the leaks. Mine appears to be leaking where the o'rings seal the main case. I guess that the rubber o'rings failed over the years.

I would very interested in finding our what is the modification, if any, needed to the Prevost alternator to suit the 12 volt service. I wonder if the installed regulator is designed to reduce the 24 volt output to 12 volt service for recharging the house batteries?

I would be very interested in what you find out.

What a great comment on these Country Coach systems. Another instance where keeping up with the comments on the POG forum has lead to learning more of these complex machines.

Thanks,

Hector

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Mike,

This forum is populated by a bunch of wannabe mechanics. But as I read the posts and see the accomplishments of those among us I often wonder if we tend to not have the fiascos that we have all read because as owners we take our time and exercise a little care.

I know I do not know anything until I have a problem, and then have to analyze it, take stuff apart and repair it, tiptoeing along the way because I lack confidence so I want to be sure I do it right. So far, so good.

But then I read stories like yours, I read about axles being twisted off because bearings were not lubricated when seals were replaced, and guys who are supposed to be experts at Carrier systems causing bus fires.

I wish there was a way we could recognize incompetence in a mechanic before the mechanic is allowed to do damage. Just out of curiosity did the mechanic check the output of the new alternator after the installation? Second question...did he run your engine with the field wire disconnected for a while to get oil circulating (so as to not burn out diodes)? Are you aware that if the 24V output did get to the 12V system you could have widespread damage? I think the regulator may have seen the 24 volt output and shut down the alternator, likely damaging itself. Pray that is the case.

[truk4u]

Mike,

I feel bad for what your going through, hang in there!

For those that face alternator problems, this should be a good lesson on how bad things can go when the service folks don't have clue on what they are doing. It's just like the later CC's, you would think that the big mama alternator on your series 60 is 24 volt, but in fact it's 12 and the small one is 24. Then you go to Marathon and the big mama is 24!:eek:

[JIM KELLER]

Mike I also feel bad for what you are going through. If your Karen needs some stress relief send her over to my Karen and she will take her shopping !

Remember, I'm right over here on the West Coast if I can send you anything or help in any way.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

On our coach we only have 1 alternator it is the 270 amp 24 volt gear drivin model.

We also have both 12 and 24 volt house battery banks (2 sets of 4 batteries), in addition to the 4 chassis batteries.

All that was done was the lead comming from the the 12 volt house bank goes to the vanner and it is cut back to 12 comming out of there, that 1 alternator charges all 12 batteries with NO PROBLEM. NO ADDITIONAL REGULATOR EITHER.

They added a switch on the control panel to isolate the house from the charge if I so choose but if we are underway I will always have it on.

Our coach was originally all electric with an a/c d/c fridge that would have been on the d/c side while underway putting even more draw than it currently sees now that the fridge is propane, worked like a charm.

IMO a second alternator is not even nessessary accept if you like redundency and switching everything around as CC has done is beyond me.

[mike kerley]

Jon, To the best of my knowledge, he looked at the volt meter on the dash (only the 0-30 volt one) and said "all is good". They told me they took care to fill the new alternator with oil before installing it. The regulator may be toast, but the inverters and 12 Volt lighting (which was on in the coach) are still working fine. Looks like the regulator kept the alternator shut down. Had it run that voltage to the heat sink, I believe it would have melted. As the alternator was working (just leaking oil) they should have measured the voltage before pulling it or at least had it tested. I've owned the coach for 5 years and had no idea that the small "add on" unit was the 24 volt unit and the large one on the engine was a 12 Volt. The placard on the door outlines the "12 Volt charging system", so I assumed both were 12 volt. I expected the mechanic/parts department to take numbers off of the old unit and get its replacement. They instead helped out the Tampa office which had had a unit setting ont he shelf for several years and were anxious to get rid of it.

Thanks Jim, I'l pass that offer on to Karen. We stayed in a house for a week and both are gratefull for the coach and glad to be back aboard.

As a side note, I watch their Allison mechanic working on a fairly new transmission and wonder " I sure hope he knows what he's doing" as they are one complex piece of machinery. 50% of the repairs I've had done by ANY shop (except Liberty in Stuart Florida who worked on my Cruise Air) , have had to be at least partially redone. Seems like all RV techs are learning as they go.

[phorner]

Mike,

That is scary stuff. I always wonder first if I can trust the mechanic to do the job right and then if I can afford the cost of the work.

Also, another big headache when you are a fulltimer, as we are. It's almost traumatic to be without the bus when it's your (only) home!

If we can be of any help, please don't hesitate to get in touch.

[jimblu]

[QUOTE=Jon Wehrenberg;



I know I do not know anything until I have a problem, and then have to analyze it, take stuff apart and repair it, tiptoeing along the way because I lack confidence so I want to be sure I do it right. So far, so good.


I wish there was a way we could recognize incompetence in a mechanic before the mechanic is allowed to do damage.
(Quote)= Jon Wehrenberg


Do you expect or act any differently with other professionals? (Or had more successful outcomes?):)

[JIM KELLER]

Mike, Where are you in this repair process ? Curious minds want to know. We are not far from Detroit Diesel in Tampa if I can help by shipping something to you. Did the parts come in from the Website you posted ?

[mike kerley]

Jim, Were waiting for the case for the alternator to come in from Kansas. When we get that (today, I hope) it goes to the rebuilder to move the "guts" over and test. If its good to go, we'll have it installed wed or thur..

Every day is an adventure. thanks for thinking of us.

[rahangman]

Have we all a need to contact CC and see what they say about our individual conversions. This past thread has sent some shivers down my spine.

[mike kerley]

The job is complete! The new case arrived from Kansas, the guts from the old alternator were moved by a local rebuilder, tested and the unit installed yesterday in a little less than 4 hours. This time with the bus "in the air" as Jon suggested.

All seems good with both alternators doing what they are supposed to do, charge batteries. Florida Detroit refunded the full price on the new (wrong voltage) unit and the core charge, did some minor chassis work at no charge and I'm through with this lesson.

I've made some notes in the CC book to remind me which alternator does what and at what voltage for future quizzes. I dont know that I'll ever get all of the old oil and grease out from under the engine compartment, but I'm working on it.

[JIM KELLER]

WOW ! Congratulations Mike. What a learning experience !

[phorner]

Congratulations Mike!

I'm sure glad to hear that you now have this episode behind you. :)

[mike kerley]

Thanks guys, I do appriciate everyone's input. Its like having your own network (sorry Verizon, had to steal your line).

I wonder what the next challange will be?

[phorner]

Mike I sure wish that I could predict what challenge would pop up next.

The only prediction that will absolutely, positively, come true is that there will surely be one in my future :eek:

[truk4u]

Great Mike, have a cold one!:D