91 CountryCoach with no 50 amp service

[lloyd&pamela]

We lost our 50 amp service yesterday and are currently running on 30 amps for half the electrical box. The 24 volt charger for the chassis batteries is flipping the breaker. I have unplugged the charger and now our chassis batteries are too low to chrank the bus.

Help. Any one with a CC and know what could be teh problem. I trouble shot the shore power with JohnW and we know it is not the box. 50/30 amps are coming to the bus but the 50 amps is being shorted by a ground fault that must have something to do with the 24 volt charger. My charger is located in the spare tire bay with a long connection from the rear to the front going through one of the prevost tubes under the bus.

Hope that helps. I have calls all day today so I will keep checking beck. Thanks guys. We are in Moab, UT now and will see everyone in OKC.

[flyu2there]

LLoyd,

First, have you tried the generator? (it should have its own starting battery or can be connected to the house batteries with the switch on the overhead panel) With the breaker open for you chassis battery charger and just to be on the safe side, the external cord disconnected, do you get the same indications with the generator running and on line? Also on you electrical panel over the door you should have an indicator for reversed polarity, that light will illuminate as soon as you plug into a box where the wires have been reversed.....is it on or was it on?

50 to 30 pretty much indicates that you have lost a leg of power. There is much more to look at but I think this would be a good starting step.......


John

[mike kerley]

Sounds like two different problems. The 24 volt chassis batteries on our 93 are not connected to the 2 chargers for the house batteries. We installed a separate 24 volt charger that only serves the chassis (engine and chassis system) when plugged in.

The 50/30 problem could be the pole, the cord or connectors or the transfer switch OR a multitude of items down stream from that. I'd check for two 120Volt legs coming out of the power cord first. The power pole/pedestal supplying you should not have a ground fault breaker, if it does, expect it to trip.

I'd start with the chassis batteries, charging them or "jump start" the coach and work from there. Will the generator start? On CC it will only "boost" the generator from the house system, not the chassis. Nothing charges the chassis system except the external charge we added and the engine driven alternator.

[phorner]

I know nothing about the CC wiring.

Just to give you another spot to check, our Liberty has 2 time delay relays inside the transfer switch. I think one is for shore power and the other for generator power. However, I believe that if one were defective, there would be no power to the bus at all.

This may have absolutely nothing in common with yours, but thought I'd pass it along as a long shot to check out.

Good luck....

[lloyd&pamela]

John, I hae not tried the generator because we have 30 amps working fine. I have two 30 amp connections outside and the rear one works the bottom breaker box which has the galley ac and the outlets I am using at present.

When I talked to OMC we discovered that the 24 volt charger was shorting out the system. When we would plug in the 50 amp line the voice would say ground fault error. I have one of the expensive 50 amp aurge protectors that JohnW recommends so I know the outlet at the campground is clean. We also tested it.

At present I have not yet tried the gen since I have a fes more conference calls today. I tried to start the bus but it will not start. I guess I will have to jump it. will the alternator charge the batteries. I have an IOTA charger. I am not comfortable working with electricity especially 50 amps.

How do you jump off a bus?

last night when we plugged in the 50 amp line to test again. The meters over the door read left 14v and right 300v. Then I turned off the ac though it was not running and the left went to normal. then cut off.

[lloyd&pamela]

Paul

We have a transfer switch with 30amp / off // 50 amp & gen. I have never opened up the switch box.

We are still getting a warning of "low vehicle battery voltage" what will hapen if this continues and how long can it be uncharged before permanently damaging the batteries. I am still tied up for two more hours today and four hours tomorrow.

We are running essential systems on either propane of 30 amps.

[lloyd&pamela]

Mike we also have a seperate charger in the front for the chassis batteries. Is there a way to see if the problem is the charger of a short in a ground line?

I will have to call someone to jump the bus since I thought I rememnber someone saying you cannot jump a bus with a car.

[phorner]

LLoyd,

Before I installed my Guest battery charger for the chassis batteries, mine went dead once, since they were not getting charged while the bus was plugged into shore power. Learned a valuable lesson there!

I disconnected all 4 chassis batteries and then charged them up individually with a standard 12 volt car battery charger. Took a while, but I got all 4 to full charge, then reconnected them, and I have not seen any adverse effects so far.

If you can get to your batteries, you should be able to charge them up this way.

However, if you suspect that your on-board charger is the culprit, I would disconnect it and leave it off.... in fact I would also un-plug it just to be sure.

If your existing chassis battery charger is causing you this problem, I would eliminate it completely from the circuit and plan on a replacement. If you can completely disconnect it from the batteries, and un-plug or disconnect it from power and your problem goes away, then all you need to concentrate on is getting those batteries up to full charge.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I think what is critical here is having someone really familiar with the CC 120/240 power system walk LLoyd through the trouble shooting.

A major concern I have is that he has to be able to trace continuity from the power plug, all the way through to the power distribution box and its circuit breakers. The reason I backed away is because I think Lloyd described a loud "pop" as preceding his loss of 50 amp into the bus. He could have a dead short, or he could have a tripped breaker only know to Country Coach owners.

It could be as simple as a loose or faulty connection finally failing by arcing and blowing itself apart, or it could be a failed relay or contactors in the transfer switch.

Whatever it is, its impact is he has power at the power outlet in the campground, but at least one leg is not getting into the bus. His post about the charger always being on, and the chassis batteries being dead can either be coincidence, or somehow related to the issue. Lloyd needs someone with a sistership that can walk him through the diagnosis, component to component, and do it safely so Lloyd doesn't make an ash of himself

[mike kerley]

Lloyd, Your electrical is not the same as mine. I have one 50 amp connector and an automatic transfer switch. Chassis set up is most likely the same.

I'd check the four start batteries to see if they are all at full charge, one two bad or all dead. I'd disconnect the rear charger until you sort out the short in that area and get the batteries charged and the bus running. You can jump start it, but not with a 12 volt car. Once you get the bus running you can move to a different pole to see if there is a problem with the power post.

If you have good service on the 30 amp cable/switch position, but not the 50 amp, you could still have a wiring issue at the pole or the cord. Clear that first by checking with a volt meter for 120V on two legs coming out of the power cord. Then I'd check plug on the bus with the switch set to 50 amp and look for a short to ground one on of the line connectors. Everything unplugged when you do this and no generator or inverters on line..

Do the meters over the entrance door show 120 volts on each leg when on the 30 amp plug?

Do you always turn off the electric when moving the source selector switch? It could have a burnt contact.

Do you have the owners manual with wiring diagram for your couch?

[lloyd&pamela]

Mike I have a cal for the next hour and then I will do your suggestions. I disconnected the charger. Back in an hour...

[lloyd&pamela]

Mike all four of the chassis batteries show 10 volts when I just tested them. Disconnected the 24 volt charger. John W and I tested the pole and it is fine.

I am recharging the batteries tonight and we will drive to Tuscon Thursday to see Chris Snyder who originally built the bus and knows its systems.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

You may find the problem in a compartment you access on the back wall of the first bay in the middle. There is an access panel with all the switchgear for your bus accept for 1 switch, for the inverter, that is on the shelf above the batteries second bay starbord side.

Tully had lost 1 leg and that is where I found it.

[Will Garner]

Lloyd,

I got the same B---- in the Box message from my 1991 CC. In my case it turned out to be a fault in the shore cord. The shore cord had a burnt connection from a previous owner that failed early own in my ownership. I took the cord to West Marine where they installed a new end plug ($100 lew$$$ vs $600 lew$$$ for a new shore cable) and I have not had any further problems, You should also take the 50 Amp Marinco Plug on the side of the bus off to make sure all wiring connections are tight. It could be over time and many bumpy roads, that one leg of the 50 amp has come loose. The loud pop could have been the moment of separation between the Marinco and the internal coach cabling.

Hope you find it soon so you get peace of mind.

[lloyd&pamela]

Joe and Will,
Thank you I will check these out tomorrow after my morning calls.
Lloyd

[garyde]

Hi Lloyd. If you start your Generator, and the transfer switch switches, then you would have power to your inverters and your house batteries. Do you have a switch which jumps your house batteries to the coach batteries and Starter?
If your charger is tripping the 120 volt circuit breaker: Is it a direct short or a slow short.

[lloyd&pamela]

Gary, the 30 amp shore cord is giving us power to the important half of the ac fuse box including the galley ac and inverter which are keeping the house batteries fully charged. I have a Charger I bought at Napa charging the chassis batteries tonight.

I don not remember if I have a switch that "jumps your house batteries to the coach batteries and Starter."

Does anybody know where it may be located if the charger does not fully charge the chassis batteries by thursday?

Sorry Gary I do not know what this question means, "Is it a direct short or a slow short."

[garyde]

Hi Lloyd. If the second you turn on the charger, it trips the circuit breaker it usually means the circuit is ok, but the charger itself has 120 volt current touching ground. Probably the charger has failed.
If you turn the charger on and it does not immediately trip the circuit breaker, but trips after a period of time, it means there is a lag to the short, and it could be heat related, too much current flowing out. Possibly a loose connection somewhere on the 120 volt side of the charger.

[lloyd&pamela]

Thanks Gary, the breaker trips immediately. Jim Craig, seems to think it may be on or both of the Vanners that are connected to the charger since we have always had a battery balance light flash and all the batteries are at 10 volts and he said two should have a different voltage if the vanners were working properly, I guess we will find out Friday with Chris. Thank you.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Lloyd,

Free advice here........

Follow the power. I suspect you are not comfortable playing with this electric since it can hurt you. Get someone that has a basic understanding, or better yet specific knowledge of how your coach is set up and get them to follow the power from your plug all the way to the various devices.

When you post you are getting too many guesses, when you call advisors they are pulling you in different directions, and unless you are talking about Vanner inverters, as opposed to Vanner equalizers this search for your prioblem has just derailed. The advice given here is all valid, but it has you bouncing around.

Hit and miss efforts may get you to the problem eventually, but the best and fastest way is to methodically trace the systems looking for the problem.

[lloyd&pamela]

Thank you Will. I checked the 50- Amp shore cord. Prevost had replace teh end after they broke the original and the ground line was cut too short and had come off the connector.

WE NOW HAVE 50 AMP SERVICE.

The Iota 24 volt Charger still trips the breaker.

Charged the 12/24 v chassis battery bank 4 batteries all night.

The two 12v batteries are reading 13.4 and the to 24v batteries are reading 10.5 is that right or do I have a bad battery.

I am still charging the batteries and will try to start the bus in the next few minutes.

[lloyd&pamela]

Engine will still not start from the batteries. I dont know where to look to find a switch that will use the house batteries to start the bus they are fully charged.

The portable charger I bought yesterday has a 60 amp starter setting. Can I set it on there and see if that will start the bus or should I just let the charger keep charging the batteries?

Thanks guys.

[lloyd&pamela]

One other unusual thing. When I started charging the batteries last night the meter on the charger read 20%, before I went to bed it read almost 100%. Jim Craig at Country Coach said run it all night long. When I woke this morning it read 20% again though the two 12v had gone from 10.0 to 13.5 and the tow wire for 24 v moved from 10.0 to 10.5.

Why did the meter drop? is it charging one at a time even though they are in series.

Also should I disconnect the portable charger when trying to get the built in charger to stop tripping the breaker?

[mike kerley]

Lloyd, I believe you have 4 12 volt batteries in the engine compartment for chassis/engine service. Each should have ABOUT 13.5 volts when charged. These batteries are in a "series - parrellel configuration to give you 24 volts for the starter and those chassis items that require that voltage and 12 volts for other chassis items. All four need to be at or close to 13.5 or you'll have problems. I know of no boost function for the chassis batteries from the household batteries on older CC converversions. Get your chassis batteries charged and it should fire up. I would suggest you charge them individually. the charger/booster wont be of much help in cranking that large an engine. 60 amps might get a small car going, but not an 8V92.

Good work on the power cord. Its always best to start with the simpler things first.

[lloyd&pamela]

Thank you Mike. That is the configuration. Hopefully they will all be charged by tomorrow morning.

[lloyd&pamela]

The built in 24v charger is now working and the batteries are 13.5 / 13.5 / 10.6 / 10.6. So the first two are charged and the second two are raising slightly.

The Batteries are AC Delco 31-900 CT

Is this the best batteries or is there a better brand or model if I need to replace any of them?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

LLoyd,

The proper way to check the batteries is to disconnect the leads and check them individually. But here is where we can focus on the DC power side of the coach.

Your charger may not be charging the batteries properly or the equalizer(s) may be an issue (I doubt that but we need to keep that in mind.)

Unless your charger is set up to charge at 24 volts you may only be charging the 12 volt side of the chassis battery set up (or vice versa). Is the battery charger a 12 volt or 24 volt?

On a previous thread Mango reposted how his charger is set up, and I believe he has it set up to charge the 24 set up. If my memory is correct, Truk used the same charger, but set his up to charge each 12 volt set. Depending on your charger, you need to charge the batteries like Truk set up his, or like
Mango did his.

If no luck, the batteries may have been damaged by the deep discharge and you may need to replace the set, but never replace batteries until the charging system is operating perfect.

[lloyd&pamela]

Have determined that the IOTA DLS 27-25 is a dedicated 24volt charger and has shorted out because of the power surge.

IOTA is shipping me a new charger that I will install tomorrow morning. That should solve all the problems caused by the short caused by the power cord being wired poorly.

We are going to install the new charger and see if that solves the problem. If not we will then drive to Tucson to see Chris Snyder.

Again POG has saved us money and time. Thank you JohnW, John, Will, Mike, Gary, Joe, & Paul