Kalifornia at it again

[jello_jeep]

I had lunch with a friend of mine, is both a lawyer (don't hold it against me) and also an avid hot rod collector. He has some nice ones.

They were having some sort of meeting in which a guy who works for BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair) was talking to them.

He said legislation has been passed to require ALL diesel engines conform to current standard. (emission testing)!!!!! This is crazy !!!

Also passed law aimed at guys who register replica cars as historic vehicles, but makes any vehicle which is comprised of both new and used parts subject to higher license fees, plus SMOG TESTING!

By the letter, it would make almost all vintage cars fall into that category, I don't know how you could have a car more than a few years old without any used parts? Plus I guess the proof is that you have to take it to a state approved inspector, and regardless of outcome you have to pay for the inspection, as there was no provision in the law for the state to do so!

There was to be a one year "amnesty" for those that had registered the replicas improperly, and after that... its a FELONY!

Sheesh...

This will be interesting!

I am trying to think how this couldn't be true, but you would think someone from BAR giving a talk, might know what was going on?

If anyone knows different, let us know..

[flyu2there]

Warren,

Been there done that...it is crazy! I have an old Porsche (77 Turbo-Carrera) that I did battle with on SMOG for years. To pass SMOG, I had to set or have timing/advance etc. set to 77 Porsche 911 California Car Specs and it would run just enough to get it to the SMOG Guy then another complete re-tune to make it run right; all that because it was a Cal Car although they imported so few that they did not have the correct data for that particular model. I held my breath waiting for 30 years to avoid the SMOG completely...they changed the law. To be licensed in Kalifornia it must be smogged every other year ni matter how old it is....screw it, took out a non-op and I will register the thing in Arizona!

John

[GDeen]

Bad part is the people who helped put California on the road to bankruptcy and absolutely ridiculous regs, are now trying to do the same thing to the entire country.:mad::mad::mad:

[garyde]

Hi Warren. You only have to use your imagination to think up the most ridiculous laws and regs. You'll find California has already thought of it.
Just imagine a world where whatever comes into your mind becomes a law, welcome to California.
There is no reality.

[rfoster]

Did anyone happen to see Fox News yesterday a.m. talking about the new Presidential appointments to the Car Czar position to manage Gov't Motors?

It was Bevis, Butthead, and Dumbnuts (I forgot their real names) each drives a Japanese one a Mazda, one a Honda, and the other an Acura.

Not an American car in any of their garages.

[phorner]

I hear ya, Roger.

We used to have pride in our auto industry. Nobody else in the world had anything even close to the GTO's, Hemi-Cudas, Shelby's, GSX's, and the list could go on and on...

But that aspect of Americana is gone. There will soon be no difference between the United States of America and any other mediocre country in the world.

And with respect to Kalifornia, New Jersey isn't far behind, which is exactly why we left the minute we could afford to. NJ is losing residents and bleeding cash so fast it's alarming. And it all started by being one of the most restrictive states in the country.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

We need a good debate here about our auto industry. Government Motors and the other guys brought this in themselves with their crappy attitudes and crappier products, opening the door for the competition that is now eating their lunch. They needed to get their asses kicked and deserved it.

However, they did learn and I think the cars produced by what was once the big three (maybe not Chrysler) are as good as any in the world. Their problem now is folks still think they make the garbage they used to so it is going to take a huge effort to get back the customers they rightfully lost. It may be too little, to late because as long as the government is involved I see them having the exact same attitudes and quality as the postal service, Medicare, and government in general.

As far as the old cars with Hemis, GTOs, and other light cars with huge displacement engines, that was proof of the lack of sophistication. The foreign manufacturers followed those cars with very small displacement engines and superb handling cars that not only would outrun the big block cars, but would outhandle them. We are only now catching up in that regard also with cars like the Cadillac CTS.

I hope our car industry survives and learns from this so they can restore themselves. This country really needs places our young highly educated kids can go when they get out of school. If we keep going the way we are going they will be selling hamburgers, insurance or work for the government.

[gmcbuffalo]

Jon they will be standing in line to get a Hamburger job. The last time I was a MacD's to whole staff spoke Spanish. Outside of selling Watermelons what do high schools kids do these day to make money?
GregM

[dalej]

Don't we just love our Canadian bus though. :)


ps, we have a Ford, Lincoln and Buick in our garage.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I should mention we have a Corvette, an H2 Hummer and a Dodge pickup in the garage. All excellent and very reliable. We also have an S430 Mercedes, a POS, but after 3 years of grief the last 4 have been trouble free. No more Mercedes for me.

[phorner]

That's pretty cool, Jon..... the Corvette being the "econo" vehicle in your garage :D

My last 'vette, a '93, was by far my least costly vehicle to drive. It was comfortable, reliable, got great gas mileage and could go much faster, and corner harder, than I ever wanted to.....:eek:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

It's a 2007 Z06. Waaaay more car than I can handle, but like all my other Corvettes before it the improvements between it and my 1990 were huge leaps.

It is my cheapest car to drive, 24 MPG local driving, and over 30 on the road. It is my daily driver except when I need the pickup.

Truth be known, the cars I own today are so much better than the cars of yesterday it is impossible to measure the improvements.

[flyu2there]

It's a 2007 Z06. Waaaay more car than I can handle, but like all my other Corvettes before it the improvements between it and my 1990 were huge leaps.

It is my cheapest car to drive, 24 MPG local driving, and over 30 on the road. It is my daily driver except when I need the pickup.

Truth be known, the cars I own today are so much better than the cars of yesterday it is impossible to measure the improvements.


That's all correct Jon save one thing......they are nearly impossible to work on unless you are a recent graduate of SMI or one of those mechanic schools, even then I have my doubts. I lift the hood on a newer car and just close it again. This sensor, that sensor, that chip, the computer, wiring harnesses everywhere with no apparent logic,lotsa plastic and many with parts that self destruct if one attempts to take them apart....plus the cutesy little placards that announce something about no adjustments can be made.

BTW what is a POS, some kind of trick Peugeot Wagon or a special model of Packard? Now there's the car 49 Packard Convertable with three on the tree and a throbbing straight eight :cool:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

POS......piece of sh*t.

Actually it is a fantastic car, now. For the first three years I averaged only 3 tanks of fuel between trips to the Mercedes dealer for repairs. Some simple, but others very serious like three instrument diplays disappearing. No speedometer, no gauges of any sort, no turn signals, no miles etc.

We view the new cars with their multitude of sensors and processors as impossible to work on. Ironically, they are made that way so the computer can tell the guy working on it what is broke. Kind of like the Airbus pholosophy. Let the computers do the thinking.

[michaeldterry]

BTW what is a POS, some kind of trick Peugeot Wagon or a special model of Packard? Now there's the car 49 Packard Convertable with three on the tree and a throbbing straight eight :cool:

A POS is short for a piece of sh... uhhh..."fecal matter" :D

He said "throbbing" :p

[flyu2there]

Speaking of the Peugeot or POS if you prefer, the Peugeot of airplanes is the bus, Air Bus that is....bad comparison! Did you know that NWA had an similar incident to the tail falling off on Air Chance outta Rio a couple of weeks back.....lucky for them they were daylight and clear (VHF on top :D) and the tail stayed on....barely. I never flew one of them but friends that I have who do and did...they all agree......POS!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Some really close friends just came home with this.

It has a friggin V-6, what Gaul

5036

5037

I used to have a 73 Cuda 340 4-speed 3.92 8&3/4 rear end.
Exact same colors.

A V-6............ good grief Charlie Brown. No good Mr. Chevy, no good.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Don't dis the 6 cylinder Joe. That is the same architecture engine that is in the Cadillac CTS and if I'm not mistaken that puts out over 300 horses. It will eat that Cuda for lunch.

[sawdust_128]

Joe: This is the v-6:

5040

It is pushing 400 HP

I have seen one delivering 628 HP.

Mine is stock and it is my economy car. Everything else is V-8 Mopar trucks.

[rickdesilva]

Wow.......I live in NJ and have a few asian car stores, I'm not feeling the love here!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I would rather eat dirt.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Rick, The reason nobody is talking about the Asian cars is because we all know they have dragged our domestic manufactuers kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

We are about to see Hyundai and Kia up the ante some more because they are doing to the market what Toyota did with its Lexus brand.

Those two companies don't have any "halo" cars just yet, concentrating on the basic vehicles, but as they continue to steal customers from other brands they will develop those types of cars also. If Government Motors wants to survive it should forget about copying Honda and Toyota, and instead focus on the two companies that came from nowhere a few short years ago and are making cars equal to or better than anyone else.

Hows that for feeling the love?

[Jerry Winchester]

I don't talk much about Asian cars because they don't fit 6'6" guys very well. But I think they are pretty well built vehicles.

In the past ten years, the best vehicle I have owned was a Lincoln Continental. I only changed the oil in it. It never had any warranty work or malfunctions. In the end, I just didn't like driving a car.

We currently have three vehicles;

2008 F-350 Super Duty - Great interior / systems - good power from diesel engine and absolutely crappy fuel consumption. The new emissions system on these engines easily cause you to use +20% more fuel. HP is good, but the exhaust cleaning function is a PITA.

2006 H3 Hummer - Easily in the top 5 POS vehicles I have ever owned. Typical crappy GM plastic trim had caused 4 trips to the dealer for repair. They know it's crappy because they keep all the parts in stock to replace it. Inline 5 cylinder engine is worst of all - poor power and poor fuel mileage. But is tows pretty easy.

1979 International Scout - 252,585 miles on the original engine. Gets about the same fuel mileage as the Ford or the Hummer and is seriously easy to work on. R-12 AC is as cold as a whore's heart and after replacing the old York compressor with a rotary one, the truck doesn't shake like a dog crapping a peach seed when you turn it on. I replaced the rear drum brakes with disk brakes last week and they work great. Maybe the best thing is to build your own vehicle out of the best parts from all the others since many of the parts on the Scout are upgraded technology from newer units.

We are looking for a replacement for the Hummer (we will keep it to tow and let our daughter drive it to school) and have driven BMW X5's, Aryan Supercars, Tahoes, Expeditions, and I sat in all the rice rocket SUV's at the Houston Car Show; no joy yet.

We are going to drive a Navigator this weekend and see how that feels. But I can tell you I have purchased my last GM vehicle. Their gross mismanagement and now joint ownership with the UAW keep me from wanting to reward them with my business. Its a dumbass company run by dumbasses with help from governmental dumbasses. Looks like the worst of all worlds.

[GDeen]

Bought an 08 Expedition EL at the end of the year during the fire sale. I am very impressed - very well made and thought out. Have always had Fords and Lexus. My 99 F-350 4x4 is still running strong at 202,000 miles.

Last year I took the plunge and bought an Audi S-8. I was prepared to visit the shop frequently, but as of 12,000 miles, not even one rattle. Outstanding fit and finish and great engineering in the drive train. Nothing like a 450 HP V-10 singing out the quad exhaust at redline. As German cars go, Audi tends to be forgotten behind BMW and MB, but they are catching up in popularity in the US, and have surpassed them in quality. I am very impressed with the product.

[dalej]

Jerry,

Did the Skiffer edit your post? or were you starting to feel bad?

[Jerry Winchester]

No, I sent it before I proof read it. I am a horrible speller, so I have to be ever vigil.

[MangoMike]

JDUB,

I wish you wouldn't hold back your feelings on the subject at hand. Just let it out.

mm

[tdelorme]

While we're kicking tow vehicles around, I'll confess my latest dumb ass move. We gave our 2003 Jeep Cherokee to the oldest grandson for HS graduation back in April. Feeling kinda sporty, I ordered a new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon and had it fixed up to tow. I hated it from the first time I drove it which was after I had paid for it. No power, rough ride and Jan complained about no leg room on her side. My youngest son loved it, so we gave it to him for next to nothing but reserved the right to use it for hunting trips. Moving up in the world of vehicle comfort and performance, I found an 08 Yukon Denali at a lease company over in Dallas. Made the deal on the phone, drove the jeep over and towed it home with the Yukon. On the way home I said to Jan, get the book out and see what we need to do to tow this baby. She starts looking and reading and ask me if we have all wheel drive or four wheel drive. I tell her it's "ALL Wheel Drive" and that's the same thing as four wheel drive. WRONG!! I have just bought a vehicle that can only be towed on a trailer. All wheel drive and four wheel drive are nothing alike, completely different and AWD vehicles can't be towed four down even around the block. She loves the Denali so we're keeping it and I told my son to forget about paying for the new jeep because I was going to be needing it whenever we went off in the bus. At least I didn't buy no stinking H3 with that mighty 5 cylinder engine.

[rfoster]

Ted: I believe Jamie Bradford tows a Denali or Escalade AWD?. Maybe he can coach you on a solution.

[jelmore]

Speaking of tow vehicles, we recently went to a Grand Cherokee. That thing is set up to tow. Push a button, wait 4 seconds, turn it off, put it in park, take the key and lock it up. It's all wheel drive, with low available. Too bad it's a hemi. Fun, but terrible gas mileage.

[jonnie]

Ted,

I think you can tow the all wheel drive Denalis, but you have to install a lube pump. Go to Remco towning and you can find out for sure.

John

[jonnie]

Ted,

I did the leg work for you. 2007 Denalis' have to towed with a trailer. 2006 and earlier can use a lube pump. I believe the change in transmissions is the problem.

John

[rickdesilva]

Jon
I feel a little better now. The subject of the automobile business is like talking about politics. I have a lot friends who had profitable dealerships and overnight were driven out of business and went bankrupt, its a shame what has happened to the car business and the local businessman.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I still have not had anyone explain to me how getting rid of a dealer (who is independently owned) benefits the car manufacturer.

Maybe you can help me here Rick. All I know as a mere civilian is now if will be more difficult for me to buy another Dodge pickup because the dealer most convenient to me, and which exceeded every Chrysler sales goal and won their service awards every year was one of the local ones that got dropped.

Next time I am shopping for a pickup it won't be a Dodge.

[Jerry Winchester]

Mel Torme

At least I didn't buy no stinking H3 with that mighty 5 cylinder engine.

No you dodged that bullet. You bought (a) a Jeep you don't like and (b) a Denali you can't tow.

So now you have two POS vehicles instead of a POS Hummer. Must be that East Texas math working in there somewhere.

[flyu2there]

I still have not had anyone explain to me how getting rid of a dealer (who is independently owned) benefits the car manufacturer.

Maybe you can help me here Rick. All I know as a mere civilian is now if will be more difficult for me to buy another Dodge pickup because the dealer most convenient to me, and which exceeded every Chrysler sales goal and won their service awards every year was one of the local ones that got dropped.

Next time I am shopping for a pickup it won't be a Dodge.

Jon,

Me thinks that they have illusions of grandure! Remember the VW Dealers in the past...sticker price is what you paid...period, thanks to manipulating the supply. I think Sautern tried that as well. Varborg, the East German wonder car, well hell, you paid what they asked for it or you didn't get one, you walked or rode on your co-op's tractor. The scary part is the co-ops tractor....is that where we are headed?

I have always disliked Ford but they are the only ones left that apparently are straight up......next car I buy will be a Ford, niet GM, niet Chrysler...

[edsaylor]

I spent nearly 40 years in the automobile business in many areas of the business. I was with Chrysler Corp. from 1963 till 1969, when I purchased my first dealership, a Chrysler-Plymouth dealer selling 3 cars a month. That was all I could scrape up enough to buy. I added Toyota 5 months later. That was a good little dealership,but too small, so after a few years, I sold it. Then moved to Biloxi and bought the Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealership. Later I bought the Chrysler-Plymouth-Dodge dealership in Gulfport (next town). Along the way I also had Subaru and Suzuki. I can tell you for sure that the imports were MUCH BETTER quality than GM or Chrysler. Only problem with imports is their parts cost much more than most domestic parts.

In the 80's and 90's you would

not believe all of the quality problems! In 1984 we had to drive any new LeSaber or Electra or full size pick up at least 10 miles before delivery to see if the transmission would work. Many, many times we would have to pull the trans. out of my demo to deliver the vehicle and then hope the new trans we got worked in my demo till we needed it again. In 1989 thru 1991 the Chrysler 604 transmissions were failing so fast that we and all other dealers were having to have new transmissions flown in.

There were all kinds of problems until the early 2000's. Now GM has excellent products in their newer designed vehicles. I have an 08 Buick Enclave that is so good, I traded Donna's Cadillac for another 09 Enclave. Also have an extended cab GMC Sierra P/U with a V-8 that gets 18.5 mpg in town! The Buick Enclaves are towable behind a coach in either front wheel or all wheel drive. You only have to pull a fuse (or put a switch under the dash, which I did) to pull the Enclave. Then you have a very comfortable 7 pass. plush vehicle to drive. They are great. The GM today is not the old GM. They have gotten the message!

What has happened to the car dealers over the past year and a half is why I always introduce myself as THE HAPPIEST RETIRED CAR DEALER YOU WILL EVER MEET!!!

[phorner]

Ed,

Now I know why you're smiling every time I see you!

[rickdesilva]

I knew Ed would join in. I'm a few years shy of Ed's 40 but have been a dealer for almost 35 years. The Chrysler dealers hit list was, in my opinion, arbitrary. If you pissed off the zone office sometime you were out. They used the bankruptcy to accomplish "cleaning up" the dealer body. The Chrysler dealers had no choice. They were notified via a FedEX list that they were on the non-continue list and had a few weeks to wind down and get out of business. The adjacent dealers who made the cut were handed larger market areas with no compensation to the poor dealer that was forced out. The list was made public and it became a death sentence for anyone on the list as no one wanted to do business with a dealer destined to be eliminated. The GM dealers on the other hand have been given 18 months to wind down and the list has remained relatively secret. Not the best case scenario but better than Chrysler. There is currently a movement on the hill to protect the dealers rights but I don't know where its headed as it seems to me to be a little too late. The bottom line is that dealers don't cost the factory anything. We own/finance our inventories, the cars are paid for once they leave the factory. There are definitely too many dealers, but the market will weed out the weak ones in a down market. Needless to say this is a subject that is near to me as I have alot of hard working friends who are the fibre of their communities forced out of business. Thru the years and my various positions I had in associations, I had the opportunity to experience Rick Wagonner first hand and in January I take over as Chairman of the Auto Association (AIADA) that represents all the international nameplate dealers in the US, over 10000 dealers so I'm fairly wired in and spend too much time dealing with the DC mentality. I can go on for hours, Factory guys, UAW, overdealering, Obama Car Czars etc. For fun Ed and I can have a seminar at OKC. For the record I currently have 2 stores which my boys run (Hyundai and Subaru) I drive my product on a daily basis and besides a fews "toys" in the garage I love my '03 Diesel Excursion and love driving my '66 GT 350 on the weekends.

[rfoster]

Ed and Rick:

Thanks for the post. Ed -it always good to hear from you.

Interesting and troubling read. If we could Pat Peck to post- I would bet he is also very happy to be out of the biz.

Rick -My sympathy or Congratulations on your involvement- please keep us posted on what's going on. We have a Mickey Mouse Tenn Assoc, - that does not know what cash for clunkers is.

We (me and Micki) now have two used car lots that have survived the first 150 plus days of Obama.

Miles and Jamie are still kicking too!!

Any other car dealers on the forum?

[tdelorme]

Mel Torme


No you dodged that bullet. You bought (a) a Jeep you don't like and (b) a Denali you can't tow.

So now you have two POS vehicles instead of a POS Hummer. Must be that East Texas math working in there somewhere.

JDUB, BITE ME!! And if you decide to tow that ugly orange Scout, don't forget to slide your big butt underneath with a 1/2" combo wrench and take the driveshaft out. Is that the same truck your grandparents made the Oklahoma land rush in??
I'm Fed-Xing a Chia Obama to your office Monday so be on the lookout.:D

John, thanks for the assist. I was on the phone with a tech guy at Remco while we were driving home. He made the comment, "not even around the block." I knew I was screwed early on.

[garyde]

I have a great Deisel Ford 4x4 and Gas GMC 4x4, and a nice 98 side step F150 PU. Those are everyday trucks and I have had very little problem with any of them. Like Kevin, I would tow my GMC 4x4 twin cab PU. Lots of room and space in the back.
We have some foriegn cars as well, but I drive day in and day out Fords and GMC's.
As far as the Koreans, Japanese, and others, I used to buy Toyota trucks but decided to move to Ford years ago. My kids drive Honda's and Toyotas because they are pretty dependable and I don't have to be constantly paying for repairs.
When I grow up I want to be like Jon and purchase an H2 to add to the mix.
Would'nt mind a Vet as well.
I do need a larger garage.

[normancasson]

I just attended the Great Western truck show in Las Vegas and the CTA (California trucking association) put on a 2 day seminar about the new smog rules for diesel engined vehicles 16,000 lbs and over. This will also include a lot of things you don't think about- diesel generators-refer units (like on semi trailers)-lots of stuff.

You won't like the first part-If one has a engine with EGR (2003-2006) you can now convert that baby to the new specs for $25-30,000. They're doing them now.

If you're fortunate to have one thats a 2007-2009 you can get away with a $15-20,000 upgrade.

If you're older than 2003 those vehicles basically will be phased out by 2014-2015 unless you're updating your fleet with newer units that give you "credits" towards your total fleets numbers.

Those with three or less units basically get a extra three year window to upgrade.

Now the good news-RV'S are exempt for now. Sometime in the next 5 or so years you'll see many of these dirt haulers and local guys just vanish. The outcry will be so loud I wouldn't be surprised to learn of some of the rules being pushed back but you never know. Just thought you'd like to know.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

IMO I see uncle Sam doing the exact same thing in private homes and that is how they are going to shove these electric cars down our throats and still allow the suv's and PU's at the same time.

Households will also be given credits for the energy efficient wheels and you will HAVE to have one to offset the gas guzzler if you choose to keep it.

Time will tell, I hope I am wrong.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Are the states surrounding Kalifornia ready for all the new residents they are about to get?

My first reaction was we are witnesses to the death of Kalifornia.

[phorner]

The real estate agents in the states surrounding Kalifornia are surely looking forward to an influx of buyers.

And, buyers desperate to escape overbearing regulation may not haggle as much when it comes to price..... they will just want out and want it now!

The cities and counties surrounding Kalifornia should also see the population shift as a way to increase their respective tax revenues...... with the exact opposite happening in Kalifornia which will further stress their economy in an ever steepening downward spiral.

Over-regulation, at some point, will always force the thinking and productive populace to flee.

[edsaylor]

Rick: I agree with you 100% that the dealer cuts were to get rid of whoever they wanted. Dealers do not cost the manufacturers hardley any money. Dealers own or finance everything on their property , except the Brand Sign, and with the domestics, the dealer leases that sign. It was pure BS when the manufacturers said they had to cut dealers to cut expenses. They also said they were over dealered in some areas and that is true, and had they corrected that, there might have been some justification. They just cut who they wanted. Here in Mississippi Chrysler cut a dealer who had just spent 6 million on a new facility 7 months ago. The dealer is left with that note and nothing to sell. The factories have absolutely wiped out and bankrupted many successful dealers all over the country! It is an absolute shame what they have been allowed to do. Dealers have worked for many years to set up motor vehicle commissions to regulate lousy dealers and to keep factories from forcing dealers to do things that are bad for them and to
keep factories from terminating dealers without good cause. Chrysler and GM just trashed all of the protections dealers have worked so hard for.

The letters that GM required ALL GM dealers who were staying to sign says that the dealer will do whatever GM wants them to do (take all the vehicles they want them to take, build or remodel their facility however they want and whenever they want, increase their sales substantially, etc.) or they agree ahead that GM can terminate them and they cannot sue GM!!! If a dealer refused to sign the letter, they were terminated immediately! 38 dealers refused to sign and that was the 38 additional dealers GM terminated.

All of this has been done with the oversight of the Obama administration. Quite frankly, I am concerned that our country can handle all of the socialist crap coming out of Washington at present.

[truk4u]

Ed & Rick,

Thanks for some insight into the auto dealer problems from someone who is in the business and not just expressing opinions. Most of us really don't know the inner workings of the dealerships and how they're structured.

PS - I always count my fingers after shaking hands with the King!

[GDeen]

The real problem with California is AlGore/Waxman/Pelosi/Obama are using it as a model for the country with their new initiatives.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Does their use of the Kalifornia model include thinking about the economic impact or will that be blamed on other factors?

[phorner]

I think I have it figured out....

This Administration takes credit for anything positive.... like Al Gore inventing the internet.....while they "inherited" everything negative.

See, it's simple :)

[dalej]

Paul,

I don't think, I know you have figured it out.

[michaeldterry]

Paul,

I don't think, I know you have figured out.

Now if we could just figure out how to stop him before he totally destroys our country. :eek:

[GDeen]

Does their use of the Kalifornia model include thinking about the economic impact or will that be blamed on other factors?

Oh that is easy Jon, and you know it....just like California's special formulation requirements for gasoline which makes it more expensive to manufacture. Obviously that means more expensive gas for the consumers. The powers that be though fairly successfully blamed it on oil company gouging.

Just wait until the cap and trade (tax and tax) program causes everyones energy bills to go up. They will blame it on someone else and likely get away with it because the rank and file are too stupid to think for themselves.

Almost every industrialized country in the world has now tapped the brakes on radical global warming legislation because they have come to realize the science is far from clear. Not us, we are going to barge headlong into initiatives that folks have no idea the ramifications for our economy because the political science is clear. Even Algore has stopped calling it global warming because he can't prove that. Now it is just the catchall "climate change." He says the climate bill will bring about global governance which is truly what this is all about anyway. It certainly is not about protecting anything, much less the environment.:mad::mad::mad:

[garyde]

Hi Guys. First off. Its all about Power. Who's got it , who doesn't.
The folks in power happen to be quite liberal and fringe in some of their beliefs.
They are going to attempt to move the country towards their progressive agenda.
Its up to everyone who disagrees to do their best to fight it.
This is not about helping 'the little people or the common folk'.
Its about changing our country into a Social Democracy.
Share the wealth Baby!
Business is the bad guy and only exists for the good of the masses.
Sound Familiar?
Hello Chairman Moa, I mean Obama.
The good news is, Hello, its been tried before and miserably failed. It's a bad B movie.
We need to vote the nuts out of office and soon.

[sawdust_128]

5047


There is nothing else to say.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Now that was funny.

[truk4u]

Jeep's favorite from his home state of Kalifornia.....

5048

[rfoster]

Truk: That favorite picture of Jeeps - I printed a copy of it and stuck it in the garden, the squirrels ran off and the bugs threw up.

Is that my tax dollars clipped on her shoulder or are they yours?

Damn she's ugly.

Sawdust could help her if she could do the pose he caught Obama in.

Gary De: Right on. But were is the rebuttal? Once upon a time before the media became absolute liberals there was a show Point/ Counterpoint. It wasn't the all to end all, but it was something. Now we just hear one side and it is all good. Crap. Throw the Bums out. and Keep them out.

[michaeldterry]

Hi Guys. First off. Its all about Power. Who's got it , who doesn't.
The folks in power happen to be quite liberal and fringe in some of their beliefs.
They are going to attempt to move the country towards their progressive agenda.
Its up to everyone who disagrees to do their best to fight it.
This is not about helping 'the little people or the common folk'.
Its about changing our country into a Social Democracy.
Share the wealth Baby!
Business is the bad guy and only exists for the good of the masses.
Sound Familiar?
Hello Chairman Moa, I mean Obama.
The good news is, Hello, its been tried before and miserably failed. It's a bad B movie.
We need to vote the nuts out of office and soon.

Someone who "gets it!" God help us all if we can't summon collective intestinal fortitude to stand up to these socialists and take our country back! :eek:

[GDeen]

Gary D, you are absolutely correct. This is all about power. Share the wealth and get votes. Once you have the votes feeding at the trough, perpetual power. A grand social experiment that has never worked because no one is incentivized to work any longer.

Roger, not only is the mainstream media not objective, they are cheerleaders! It is ridiculous and very dangerous.

[jello_jeep]

I think she was your high school prom date Krakboy!



Jeep's favorite from his home state of Kalifornia.....

5048

[flyu2there]

You should have seen her before she went under the knife....a banana nose and more Chins than the Hong Kong phone book. :D

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Concerning all of the Closings of Auto Dealers around the country, has anyone else heard the rumor they all supported the Republican Party, or is that just gossip? :confused: I don't know I am just saying ? !!!

For a different perspective on all that is going on in our country try going to http://www.worldnetdaily.com/


Gary S.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

A quote from Samuel Adams. Those who prefer tranquility of servitude had best be prepared to crouch down and lick the hand which feeds you.

Ben Franklin said "Those willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

If we fail to speak up and speak out against this madness then we should be prepared to accept everything we get (Glenn Beck)

A quote from yours truly. It is gonna have to get a lot worse before it gets better. I am afraid anything short of a complete system failure will allow the bureaucrats to continue to kick the can down the road. Because of this notion I hope the current administration gets that second term.:eek:

Many of you have struck a cord with your thoughts on the next automobile you'll buy and I believe there are millions of folks out there who feel the same.

It is our responsibility as patriots to all be putting a FORD in the drive the next time around. Dodge and Chevy need to go the way of the dinosaurs.

If I had investment cash I would be buying into Ford they are going to be big.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If we agree with Gordon that Kalifornia is to be the model, then I suggest we lobby for a federal law that allows those opposed to the viewpoints of those in power to leave the state, but forbid the liberals and tree huggers from leaving. Let them live in the environment they would like the rest of us to live in. When the whole thing collapses under its own weight deny them federal funds to clean up the mess they created.

[edsaylor]

Most car dealers are Conservatives, so most are republicans. I do not know of any dealer who was cut that was a democrat! I think I could gurantee that none who were cut were big Obama supporters.

I agree with Rick that most of the dealers who where cut had pissed off the factories at one time or another. I know of several dealers who should have been cut in this area if the goal was to eliminate over dealering like they claimed. Not one was cut that should have been. Several 5-star dealers (the top quality dealers) were cut though. I am sure that if I were still a dealer, I would have been cut as I used to be on the Dealer Councils and advertising boards for all franchises I had, and as a result had a number of testy sessions (keeping it nice) with them.

I personally feel that Chrysler is toast and will be gone or broken up and Jeep sold off within 18 to 24 months. Unfortunately, I do not think GM can survive long term because of the sentiment of most Americans, which has been expressed a number of times in this thread. The difference is that Chrysler will be allowed to fail, but the government will rescue GM again. Next time, they may put Ford and GM into one company. I have seen several analyst that expect by 2015 there will be only one or possibly two domestic auto makers left. It will be Ford and GM or Ford/GM combined, I think.

Even used car dealers are suffering with this economy! Several of my friends who are used car dealers have closed up in the past few months. I hope Obama does not completely wreck the entire US economy.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If we really think about this there are a lot of things that can change the landscape. Lamar Alexander our TN senator is pushing a bill that will distribute 100% of the GM shares that are owned by the government to those who file and pay taxes next April 15th. That would create a huge incentive for citizens to support GM, would get the government off the board and change the attitude that prevails about buying from GM. I personally think its current vehicles are as good as any, so I don't want to see it fail for the wrong reasons.

Chrysler has an uphill battle because its quality has lagged and I really do not see a lot of its product line getting people in the front door.I don't know if Fiat will change that either because they have never designed product for this market anyway. Ed probably has called this one right.

What will not change no matter what is the number of cars produced here, so despite all the blathering about letting GM fail it means nothing but the loss of UAW jobs. The other companies selling in this market already produce some of their products here and if all three of the US manufacturers failed we would just have more factories with foreign names over the door turning out cars for this market., none of which would be UAW workers.

I may stand alone on this, but the failure of businesses, regardless of size is part of the cycle of business and I don't think the government should stick its nose where it doesn't belong. Pave our roads and protect our shores is all I want the government to do. Everything else the private sector should handle.

[flyu2there]

But Jon, who wants stock in a company where Ron Gettlefinger is sitting on the board?

[flyu2there]

And then there is:

[dalej]

Even used car dealers are suffering with this economy!



Not so fast Ed, I know a used car dealer in east Tennessee that just bought a newer bus! :)

[fixrim]

Boy you guys don't want to get me going on this thread! Havent been on this board since we got our 03 Prevost, came back to see what is happening.

As for cars, I own between 13-15 at any given moment, and my tastes run the gamut. No comparison on the Hemi's, et al, of old and new cars. Your basic late model Honda or Chevy is faster than most old muscle cars, and it would kill then on a road course. As for the Mercedes, I sadly have had one, nice car, lots of power, but you are right, a real POS! Fantastically overrated!

Being Canadian (I left that socialist left wing mecca in 1992 with $300 and a 20 year old car with no AC, and not another possession!) I have sad observations about what is happening here now. I never thought I'd live to see the day when the Canadian PM was to the right of the President. And sadly, there is no "conservative" movement in Canada, since as a socialist country the best a party can do is to claim they can run the socialist system better than the lefties.

Canadian health care, is, well, scary. Fact is most of the population doesn't need it, because they are healthy, but heaven help you if you are elderly and need care. By that time, your voting power is diminished due to demographics, and the lousy health care is just "the way it is" Funny thing about most Canadians is that they love their system, they just think it hasn't been run right. Most falsely believe that Americans routinely go bankrupt after a hospital visit, and that many simply die because they can't get treated at the hospital. "Better to wait and get care than die on the street in front of the hospital" is what they say. But wait they will. Long waits for even the most routine things are common. Many of these routine things are life altering or life threatening, but no matter, you will still wait. Simply stated, many die that might have done better with fast, aggressive treatment. And rich Canadians have it no better, for it is ILLEGAL for a doctor to provide care for money outside the system. After all, no one should be able to get at the front of the line due to money. Good for them that they can come here ( a staggering number come here for their health care), but that soon will change also.

I feel like the country I knew is now gone... and is was the only place on earth like it!

As for Republican car dealers, yes I heard that all but 2 of the dealers that were closed were Republican contributors. Sad day indeed.

As for GM and Chrysler, I'd say they are finished, but I hope I am wrong. I can't ever recall a government owned business (or any other entity for that matter) that can run better and be more effective that a private sector business or entity. And turning these entities over to the very union that bankrupted them is, well, poorly consider in my estimation. Apparently Obama and his cronies are smarter than everyone else in every area of the economy and government. And they used the word "hubris" when talking about Bush!!

I am considering going to DC on 9-12 for a tax protest rally (in my Bus) maybe some on this board should do the same thing!

Thanks for letting me rant!

[sawdust_128]

Say there Bob, Welcome to the war!!

[Jerry Winchester]

Bob,

Pretty good rant, eh? Lots of truth to those words....

[GDeen]

I have been fishing the past few years at a lodge up in Saskatchewan. The Canadian owner developed cancer 2 years ago and immediately relocated to the US for treatment.

[rickdesilva]

The Republican/Car Dealer closing I believe is just a coincidence since most dealers I know are republican. The GM deal will be interesting to watch as GM is being (as well as Chrysler) "convinced" to produce and sell vehicles which are sale-proof. There is no doubt in my mind that eventually they will be back at the trough again for more money and I think that by then the public will have had enough. Now that the UAW owns a chunk of GM and sits on both sides of the table the next contract negotiation is going to be interesting. Gettlefinger won't know what hat to wear. I originally thought that a "pre-packaged" bankruptcy would be the way to go as it would have given both GM and Chrysler the opportunity to shed the extreme legacy costs and renegotiate the contracts that keep the domestic manufacturers on their back. Never did I think that the only ones who would emerge whole and not give up too much would be the UAW. The bond holders lost out and the Supreme Court upheld it. Ford on the other hand started the corporate restructure a few years before everyone else by shedding off Jaguar, Range Rover and Aston Martin. Mulally has done a great job however, Ford does not have the luxury of having had its balance sheet cleaned up from a bankruptcy, but at least they don't have the Car Czars running the store.

[hhoppe]

Yes Us California Citizens are in a real pickle, several pickles as a matter of fact. We have three terrible Congress ladies out of the 354 law makers in congress. They are not doing all of the damage being done to our country. Look in your own back yards at what you are sending for law makers. I'm presently holding my breath our governor continues his hold out on signing the budget being presented to him by the Democratic Legislature.. He told them " We are broke." As citizens of this great state we have the most to lose by being forced out of state by taxes and destructive regulations. Best year round climate, Jobs, income, standard of living, beaches, mountains, forests, deserts, lakes and all year recreatiobn.
So pick on Kalifornia if it makes you feel good, but we will survive and come back better for for having gone through the tough of it.

[Sid Tuls]

Hey Harry good to hear from ya.:D Are you going to OK?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Harry, I think you are wrong. I have seen a parallel with NY state and what has happened is the welfare constituency has become the dominant political force, and the politicians now pander to that voting bloc. As a result legislation and budgets leave the income producers no other option than to bail out.

Businesses are leaving, high wage earners are leaving, real estate values are plummeting because far more people (who earn their way in life) are leaving than are coming into the state.

The decline is happening at a faster rate now and the state is creating even more ways to take money from its residents. I don't know when it will reach the tipping point, but it is getting close.

You have a beautiful state, but it is all about numbers, and as those on the receiving end of your money outnumber you the end is near.

[rickdesilva]

There is a tremendous amount of support of a Bill that is moving through the House which may give back the terminated dealers their rights if not their franchises. Its called the "Automotive Dealer Economic Rights Restoration Act". Its picking up alot of momentum and it has accumulated over 220 co-sponsors. My understanding is that it would restore their agreements prior to their arbitrary termination. Unfortunately for some dealers its too late. But it shows the power of Grass Root involvement and Lobbying and knowing your Representatives. It would be Huge victory for those dealers who are looking at bankruptcy as an option because they didn't make the "stay" list.

[GDeen]

This .......
.....what has happened is the welfare constituency has become the dominant political force, and the politicians now pander to that voting bloc. As a result legislation and budgets leave the income producers no other option than to bail out...

[Jerry Winchester]

Rick, etal.

While I can understand all the angst about the dealers and their investments, isn't all of that what bankruptcy is about?

When I started to work in the oil field in 1981, there were 4400 rigs running in the US. By 1983 there were less than 2/3 that number and some 475,000 people had lost their jobs; just in the energy sector (drilling, production, service). No drilling czar, no bills in Congress to help the displaced workers, no efforts to help guys who lost their businesses from investments that no single car dealer has ever pushed up on the table. It all just evaportated.

Those of us fortunate (or unfortunate) to have jobs were left to work 100 hour weeks with little time off and not very good working conditions so the companies we worked for could compete and survive the downturn. Maybe the destruction of the industry was fairer since it basically took everyone down, but in the end nothing stopped the massive bankruptcies and bank failings due to the oversupply of product, equipment and services.

While I am no less concerned about the plight of the car dealers, they are but a single entity in what is sure to be a pretty massive meltdown all across the board. Right now there is 2.5 times more service equipment in the US for energy than is needed. This time last year people were screaming for more production to offset the high prices. This year no one gives a rat's ass.

What's the difference between the auto industry failures and energy? The US energy companies have managed to decrease the cost of producing natural gas and increased the supply to their own detriment. While they don't set the price of their product they certainly have to live within the market forces.

Auto makers made a deal with the devil in all their union and legacy costs. They had a chance to level the playing field with bankruptcy and they couldn't even get that right. It's truly like wiping your ass with a wagon wheel; same crap just keeps coming round and it's never going to get clean.

[Jerry Winchester]

Oh, I forgot one important part.

Mel Torme' - This guy came by with a message for you. :)

5050

[rickdesilva]

JDUB
you are absolutely right and we're basically saying the same thing. As business owners we know there is no guarantee and the dealers are not looking for a bailout. Leave the dealer body alone, the shrinking market, lack of sales and having your wagon hitched to a bankrupt franchise is a risk we take, we know there are no guarantees. But in this situation GM and Chrysler and Car Czars have made 2 categories, who will remain and who will go away. The bill thats floating in the house is only to restore the dealers rights to operate. All the dealers want is to be left alone, market conditions will dictate who will survive.

[GDeen]

Rick, etal.

While I can understand all the angst about the dealers and their investments, isn't all of that what bankruptcy is about?

When I started to work in the oil field in 1981, there were 4400 rigs running in the US. By 1983 there were less than 2/3 that number and some 475,000 people had lost their jobs; just in the energy sector (drilling, production, service). No drilling czar, no bills in Congress to help the displaced workers, no efforts to help guys who lost their businesses from investments that no single car dealer has ever pushed up on the table. It all just evaportated.

Those of us fortunate (or unfortunate) to have jobs were left to work 100 hour weeks with little time off and not very good working conditions so the companies we worked for could compete and survive the downturn. Maybe the destruction of the industry was fairer since it basically took everyone down, but in the end nothing stopped the massive bankruptcies and bank failings due to the oversupply of product, equipment and services.

While I am no less concerned about the plight of the car dealers, they are but a single entity in what is sure to be a pretty massive meltdown all across the board. Right now there is 2.5 times more service equipment in the US for energy than is needed. This time last year people were screaming for more production to offset the high prices. This year no one gives a rat's ass.

What's the difference between the auto industry failures and energy? The US energy companies have managed to decrease the cost of producing natural gas and increased the supply to their own detriment. While they don't set the price of their product they certainly have to live within the market forces.

Auto makers made a deal with the devil in all their union and legacy costs. They had a chance to level the playing field with bankruptcy and they couldn't even get that right. It's truly like wiping your ass with a wagon wheel; same crap just keeps coming round and it's never going to get clean.

Here, here JDub.

One correction/typo - rig count dropped nearly 2/3 by 1983 (~ 1800 in 83)....

[tdelorme]

Oh, I forgot one important part.

Mel Torme' - This guy came by with a message for you. :)

5050

So the guy lost two and a half fingers in a rig accident or what?? You want me to call OSHA for you??

I was just jerking your chain with the Scout comment. We towed one back and forth to Colorado for years and I was the guy who always had to do the driveshaft disconnect. One year we got the motorhome stuck up to the axles in mud and drove back to Texas in the Scout. If it had a heater we never found it and every time I see one it reminds me of the time I nearly froze to death.

Do you want the "smiling" or the "serious" Chia Obama?

[Jerry Winchester]

Why did you have to disconnect the driveshaft? With the front hubs unlocked and the transfer case in neutral, the driveline is isolated from the transmission although it does continue to rotate.

[tdelorme]

Jerry, I was like 18 years old and while I know it's hard to believe, I did as I was told. The Scout was a 1954 model and belonged to my step dad. He keep it up and running till he died a few years back. It was slow and underpowered but impossible to get stuck. He was sure the driveshaft needed to come out when we towed it so out it came.
Be sure to water this when it arrives.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i174/tdelorme1/chia-obama-animated.jpg

[rfoster]

Jdub: Are you going to put that on your desk? How about the center of the Conference Room?

[garyde]

California is like 49th in the Country for education scores for kids in grades 1 thru 12, and 40 percent of the money for education goes to administrative costs. this is but one example of how special interests have screwed the State. My Sons school, every year, asks for donations from Parents to hire a Music teacher and Art Teacher, because the State can not afford those two instructors. Pathetic!
GM and Chrysler want to stop the discounts and rebates and competiion amongst dealers, so they figure fewer dealers, less discounts, more money in the bank.

[edsaylor]

JDUB: I agree that bankruptcy is to clear out weak businesses. In the case of GM and Chrysler dealers who were cut, most were operating very successfully. GM and Chrysler just wanted them gone and their bankruptcy allowed them to throw them away with no compensation whatsoever! The only reason the dealers are now bankrupt is that they were just thrown out. As far as reducing rebates, The rebates are as high or higher than before the dealers were cut. Rebates are offered by manufacturers because certain products are not selling at a rate to hold the days supply at a reasonable amount (normally 60 days supply). Reason days supply gets too high is factories build too many cars for the market and/or it is a model that is overpriced or is not something people want in the quantity they built. Higher the rebate, the more of a problem vehicle. Popular models have little or no rebate on them. Now that they have thrown out dealers who sell 15 to 20 percent of their volume, rebates will be here for awhile. They will go down as they bring out products people want and hold production to the sales rate or less. Since they are closing many plants and bringing production down substantially, rebates will probably drop after awhile. Reason will be less production, not fewer dealers.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

When times were toughest I used that as an opportunity to really get into my competitors' shorts. We always spend far less than we brought in because we knew no matter how good things were today, tomorrow they would suck.

So when times were at their worst we were able to negotiate better prices from suppliers, buy equipment failing businesses were dumping, and go after new customers from competitors that were having a hard time staying afloat.

GM, Chrysler and Ford can expect the same thing from their competitors. I would guess that while all car manufacturers are hurting, several of them still have good balance sheets and as such are well positioned to kill the weak competitors. They are crazy if they don't.

It is just my opinion, but if the dumb asses wanted to clean house, they should have dumped or at least extracted huge concessions from the UAW, and left the dealers who create sales in place. Follow the money folks, because if Government Motors and Chrysler are ready to fail at the next election time, you can bet BO will be sliding them whatever amount it takes to keep the factories humming. He cannot stand to face the huge outcry that will occur if Mr. and Mrs. America find the government picking up the tab to provide the UAW members the lifestyle for which they have become accustomed. And the government will do that when the companies fail.

[Jerry Winchester]

Mel sends a scud to my office today. There will be a special place in POG hell for him at OKC - If he has a big enough pair to show up.

5054

[rfoster]

Boy Jdub that sucks!! with a capital S

[tdelorme]

Jerry I hope you enjoy the Chia. The sprouts are edible by the way, Bon appetite. I thought Loc might also enjoy such a magnificent gift, but it might look like he was sucking up to the boss so I resisted the urge.

[truk4u]

Skiffer,

Please don't park me near Mel at OKC, I feel Arc Lights (B-52's) in my bones from the Turd Boy's now that a Scud has been launched at one of the Turds!:rolleyes:

[MangoMike]

Mel Torme,

I was feeling a little left out today after seeing JDUB's gift.

Then the mailman showed up with a gift from non other than Jim C.

5058

Life is good.


mm

[Jerry Winchester]

Dude, I feel slighted. A KrakChia. I feel the ACME Visa card slipping from my wallet. Good thing Mel has such a great sense of humor and is such a good sport.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'm seriously thinking about going back to work so I have time to play with stuff like this.

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the people in POG who have real world jobs seem to have the most time doing photoshop, and buying stuff at Acme?

I'm thinking Camp Schoeller at OSH is looking pretty good. It may be out of missle range.

[truk4u]

No respect, no respect at all!:rolleyes:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Truk, I am not confident the dynamic duo shoots straight, so can we agree to park on opposite ends of the camping area at OSH. I don't want any damage as a result of a poorly aimed missle.

Damn glad I changed the locks on my coach.

[rfoster]

Mel sends a scud to my office today. There will be a special place in POG hell for him at OKC - If he has a big enough pair to show up.

5054

Jdub: So is Obama due a trim yet? I can not forget a scud like that one.,