diesel fuel in fresh water tank

[Short]

Has anybody ever experienced this? Any suggested fixes?

[dalej]

This has got to be a trick question!

I would not think that it's possible that could happen.... no wait, has the taco twins been close to the bus?

Sorry, I don't have a clue how this could of happened.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ditto what Dale said.

The bus fuel system is tapped into by the generator, the Webasto (or Espar or Aquahot) if so installed, and of course the motor.

We can rule all of those out because none of them ever bring their fuel supply anywhere near or connected to the fresh water supply.

The only bus system cross contamination with the fresh water system is engine coolant or fluid breaching the heat exchanger into the house water system, but since the house water system is pressurized to a much greater amount than the engin e coolant system, the cross contamination would be the fresh water getting into the coolant.

[Ray Davis]

Could someone have put diesel into the fresh water fill spout? Would probably be evidence/stain in that area if that did happen.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I've never seen a diesel fuel nozzle with a hose adapter. On my coach there is no way to "accidently" get fuel into the water. You not only need a hose connection, but you have to open a valve manually and then press a switch to open the electric fill valve.

As an alternative my bus has an expandible plug at the top that can be removed to add chlorox or even to fill from a hose, but a person needs to get into the bay, open the access door to the inside of the bay, actually know that plug is there, and to remove it which is a bit of a pain.

If fuel is in the system My guess is that step one has to be a full system drain. Second refill and flush with some soap or solvent that will emulsify the fuel so it can be carried away. Then that needs to be flushed with many rinses. But I wouldn't waste my time doing that until I knew the secret to how it got there in the first place.

[Ray Davis]

On Marathons, in the curb-side water bay there is a fresh water gravity fill. It could conceivably receive fuel, but as you've said, it seems a real long shot. I think my fill there is like plastic PVC, and I would think there would be evidence that diesel fuel had been introduced there.

The original post didn't seem to indicate whether there is a LOT of fuel in the water, or not.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I will assume he has this issue.

If it plastic I would throw it out or sell it as a waste tank

If it is stainless I would search for info for a possible cleaning solution.

[flyu2there]

I would be looking for the prankster, just cannot happen.

John

[Short]

This is crazy to us as well! We just purchased this machine and after a supposedly thorough exam of all systems including the water system which included over 2 weeks of work and constant reassurance that "everything was in good shape now"we were sent on our merry way. Being completely novice and anxious to get going as well we would not in our wildest thinking imagined that they would send us off with contaminated water! When we noticed an awful smell, the owner of the company said, " well you should never drink water from a motor home tank and that smell is just because it has sat for a long time and needs to be flushed out." As we drove home the smell was overwhelming in the coach and of course we couldn't use the water for anything. We drained the tank and kept a jar for testing so we don't yet know the level of contamination, but there is an oily skim on the water and it is cloudy and the smell is very strong.
We wondered if anybody had any idea of what to do next or of an enzyme or anything that would help flush out the oil? Weird, huh?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Diesel smell is almost impossible to make disappear. Just ask any of us that have had a diesel bath from fuel puking from our tanks during refueling.

If I had the problem I would experiment with almost all products that will emulsify diesel fuel and break it down so it mixes with water. As soon as I found one that would make the smell go away from a container like an old milk jug then I would use that product to fill and flush the water system. I still would want to know how it got in the system. Until I learned that I would not be spending a lot of time trying to clean the system. I would want to be sure that someone hasn't maliciously rigged up a way to cross contaminate the systems.

Never heard of anything so strange. We have had funky water in our tank and system and usually a chlorine sanitizing treatment makes it go away. Are you sure it is not water with an odor? Are you sure the anode in the hot water tank is not creating the odor? Is it diesel fuel for sure?

[tdelorme]

IF, by some strange happening you did get a load of diesel in your fresh water tank, it's gonna take some real work to get rid of the problem. If the diesel has been pumped throughout the water system, I don't think you will ever get rid of the odor. Hopefully, someone has had better luck than I have had removing the smell of diesel fuel. I do know that clothes soaked in diesel are history. The smell is just impossible to wash out, and no matter how many times you wash them the diesel smell remains.

I just read your last post. As much as I hate to say it, your going to end up in court if the selling dealer is not willing to do the right thing. The right thing in this case would be to completely replumb the coach. New hot and cold lines, new hot water heater, new ice maker, ect. We would sure like to know where you bought your new bus.

[Pete]

Does this "machine" have a manufacturer? A model? A Brand? It is very difficult to help if we know nothing about it. Is it a Prevost conversion? I have never seen a Prevost conversion with an external gravity fill on the water system. More info please.

[flyu2there]

Sounds like what really needs flushing is the owner of the company that sold you the coach. Without knowing much about this, I would sumise that their PDI was a pencil job or he has a few disgruntled employees. Trust they gave you documentation on all services performed, that will be your ammunition...wouldn't let that one go! Let the owner clean it up with a kind reminder that someone may have consumed that water............

Good Luck,

John

[sawdust_128]

The simple answer is the coach didn't do it.

Both liquids got into the tank.

Could be introduced into the tank seperately (prankster/vandal/idiot) or they could have been introduced simultaneously (i.e., contmainated water supply)

Just some questions:

Where and how was the fresh water last filled and who did it?

Also, do you have the service logs for the coach? Is there any indication that any tanks were pulled for any reason?

I ask, because I agree with everyone on here that it would seem impossible for this contamination to occur on-board. However, it could be that contaminated water was used to fill the coach. Or, possibly that the tanks were contaminated and reinstalled into the coach.

Is it possible that a hose used to flush/syphon diesel tanks was accidentally used to fill your coach?

Also, just curious as to why you are just finding this out now?

[mike kerley]

Our Country Coach has a single diesel fill on the passenger side. Driver side, same location has a door to the "gravity fill, fresh water". Clearly labeled and its white plastic cap and tubing with small port should be a clue to its usage. Stranger things have happened. Picture a small diesel nozzel being stuck into the fresh water fill at a flying j. Look Mildred, we can fill from both sides....

[GDeen]

This story is what gives "rv salesmen" such a bad name. After working with Steve Bennett for so long on our deal, it makes me shudder to think back to some of what we were told by "rv salesmen" along the way.....

I hope you get this worked out to your satisfaction. If this is a dealer, sounds like it is time for names and details.

[truk4u]

Like Pete said, what is it?:confused:

[adamdegraff]

I was at a Flying J in Florida, and for some reason the pump on the drivers side was pumping fuel very slowly. (Like a trickle... and I was in the truck area.) So before I moved over, I thought I'd try the other side. That pump was working fine. And I proceeded to fill at 25 gallons per minute... or maybe faster. I had both sides stuffed with paper towel as I usually do. Well, standing on the passenger side, I hear the drivers side pump click off. And I assume that the passenger side pump isn't far behind. But it didn't turn off. But again, I figured that perhaps it had something to do with the strange behavior of the driver's side pump. That is, until I cued in on the sound of 25 gallons per minute of diesel being shot out of the other side of the bus. Yup, the passenger side pump was pumping $2.50 diesel at an alarming rate out the other side. I stopped it as fast as I could, but no doubt there were 3-5 gallons of diesel all over the place. Somehow, this massive amount of fuel leaked down from the driver's side fuel nozzle and literally filled up my fresh water hose (which is on an auto retracting reel, and comes out of a nifty stainless steel hole, which is plugged with a nifty little plug that very smartly allows the hose to drain... or in this case, fill up with diesel fuel. Bummer!

But it all worked out OK. Here's what I did. First off, when I got to my campsite, I did my best to get all of the loose diesel out of the hose while being careful to NOT let it get in any further down the line. I then pumped the hose full of Gojo. And I mean, FULL!!! I kept the hose kinked with a pair of radiator clamps. I then let it all sit for a while. Hooked the hose up to fresh water and, using my quick disconnect hose dodads, I quickly unhooked the hose. The Gojo and water sprayed out with gusto. I then repeated about 10,000 times until the water coming out smelled like... water.... NOT Diesel and NOT Gojo.

So I think Jon's idea of finding something that will nullify the diesel is a good idea. Maybe a 55 gallon drum of Gojo?

By the way, when we were touring full time, we filled our fresh tank about once every other day. We kept that water fresh and clean. I treated it about once a month with a bit of bleach, and we drank our water through a Lowe's bought, two stage, water filter. My whole family drank it all year and we were all just fine. If only for the reason that lugging large flats of bottled water up the stairs on a daily basis is a huge PITA, it was totally worth it. I though of doing an R/O system, but the constant backflushing not only wastes a lot of water, but it also would keep the pumps cycling on and off forever. The two stage filter worked perfectly. Water actually tasted great.

[garyde]

Purchasing a Coach doesn't just mean the engine starts and the wheels go round. If you were given some guarentees, either verbal or in writing I would use them now. It's not important from a buyers stand point how the deisel got in there, its there and they need to do something about it. Who ever heard of a dealer say the water in the holding tank has been sitting in there for quite a while. that should have been your tip off. Please post the dealers name so we all can be warned.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

We not only want to know who the dealer is so we can be warned, we want to be able to broadcast how well he responds to your request for this situation to be corrected.

The dealer may be blameless in this or he may have created the problem. That's diesel tainted water over the dam. What counts now is how the dealer responds. If he does the right thing he has an entire POG forum talking about how honorable he was. If he chooses to turn his back on the problem the conversation on the forum goes in a different direction.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Weird is right.

O/K Short now lets have the rest of the story.

If I were done like that by a dealer it would have been noted in the first post. Why wouldn't you?

I apologize for my cynicism.

[Short]

Wow! Thanks for all your replies. To Joe, there really is no rest of the story,,,except that we feel like fools for letting them get us out of there without this being fixed. We did ask if there was water in the tank, we didn't ask if it was potable....we just assumed. We bought this old coach and we asked the dealer to do a thorough check of all systems and fix anything that needed attention. We were specific about air system, water system etc. Several thousand dollars later we were told it was ready to roll. We had a quick 2 hour instruction period with one of the men and then spent the night in the unit in anticipation of leaving the next morning at 6am. That night we realized the water was not right and mentioned it first thing in the morning.
{The dealer was to escort us to the state border}. That is when he replied that it had set a long time and needed to be flushed and that nobody should drink water from the tank.
Yesterday we called the dealer again and again he said it was just residue from work they did on the generator and spilled fuel and that all we needed to do was steam down the generator and flush the tank 2 or 3 times.
We are taking a sample of water for testing today. We will await that result before talking anymore with the dealer.
We truly are novices and feel totally stupid about this so we want to be sure that we are not accusing a dealer of bad service wrongly.
By the way, the unit is a Prevost 1989 XL, Country Coach, 190,000 miles. Do they all smell like diesel at that age?
Thanks for all the replies. Will get back with the water test results.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

We have an 85 and no odor.

[sawdust_128]

What counts now is how the dealer responds. If he does the right thing he has an entire POG forum talking about how honorable he was. If he chooses to turn his back on the problem the conversation on the forum goes in a different direction.


Yep, the genie is out of the bottle on this one for sure.

[flyu2there]

"Yesterday we called the dealer again and again he said it was just residue from work they did on the generator and spilled fuel and that all we needed to do was steam down the generator and flush the tank 2 or 3 times."

While a substantial diesel spill in the generator compartment COULD cause odors inside of the coach I suppose, working on the generator has nothing to do with the issue at hand..........

The short answer (:D) is that water is heavier than diesel. The pick up from the fresh water tank is close to the bottom on CC's, so a smidge of diesel, in theory, would never make it into the system. There is a drain at the bottom of the tank to allow draining any crud that may have settled to the bottom, is that where you sampled the tank? I realize that while you drive you atomize the diesel (shake it up and cause it to mix, sort of) however finding it in the water, smelling it in the coach would certainly suggest far more than a trace amount. That being said, it may well be in the hot water heaters, plumbing, hoses, o rings in faucets, filters and pumps.....anything made of plastic and rubber being the most troublesome to clean. Not sure what your FW Tank is made from but the ever popular food grade neoprene will absorb odor and could be nearly impossible to clean.
Take it back to the dealer....................

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Short,

I think it is safe to say a water system that has had stagnant water, and which has been unused for a while may present some funky odors. But a chlorine mix in the proper concentration should cure that easily.

For a sanitizing mix I use approximately 2 1/2 cups of chlorox in my tank. I fill it and run water through all fixtures, the shower, the sinks, the washer, the toilet, etc. I let everything sit for a few hours, and then I dump the tank and the hot water tank.

I refill with fresh water and run water again through all fixtures to flush them. If you do that you can expect to see some nasty colored water and the strong smell of chlorine. Flush as well as you can and drain and refill the tank again. The odor of chlorine might linger a bit longer, but it will be no worse than what you find in some water supplies.

If your odor issue is water that has been sitting in the system and no diesel that should solve your problem. But diesel is a distinct smell and how he could possibly get it in the water tank just by working on the generator is BS. He's lying.

Do old coaches smell like diesel? Yes if maintenance on them has been poor. There is no reason to have diesel fuel leaks or spill any when servicing the coach. I have 215,000 plus miles on my coach and I defy anyone to smell diesel anywhere on it. Others can say the exact same thing. POG members have coaches with a wide age and mileage spread and yours is not at the extreme for age or miles.

But let's assume this wizard or his crew did get diesel in your water. First, diesel is not going to mix with water. It is hydrophobic meaning it will not mix unless emulsified with some enzyme or solvent. It will sit on the top of the contents of the tank. Especially if you weren't driving the coach, and all you did was live in it over night. Unless you guys were really rocking any diesel fuel that found its way into the tank was sitting on the top of the water.

In order for you to deliver that smell through all your plumbing fixtures more than a film was required on the top of the water, and the tank would have to be drawn down until the pump was pulling diesel through it. Assuming that is all true, there was an ample supply of diesel in your tank at one time, and it was drawn through the system via the pump. So the question becomes was this a problem when the dealer had the coach, and assuming it was why did he not discuss it with you? If all it takes is a steam cleaning and a flush, now's the time to say since the solution is so simple, I will bring you the coach and pick it up when you have it clean.

Name this dealer. We want to know and we want to monitor his support of you.

[sawdust_128]

Jon: There are qualifications to the following:

"But let's assume this wizard or his crew did get diesel in your water. First, diesel is not going to mix with water. It is hydrophobic meaning it will not mix unless emulsified with some enzyme or solvent. It will sit on the top of the contents of the tank. Especially if you weren't driving the coach, and all you did was live in it over night. Unless you guys were really rocking any diesel fuel that found its way into the tank was sitting on the top of the water."

1. Diesel will emulsify into water without an enzyme. What it won't do is stay emulsified (suspended) without an enzyme or surfactant. The cloudy water sample tells me that it is suspended in emulsion and/or in solution.

2. Diesel is not a single substance. Some components of diesel fuel are more hydroscopic than others. The net is that some components of diesel fuel disperse into water and become separated from the main volume of fuel by aqueous extraction.

(From Global Security's web site)
"Short-term hazards of the some of the lighter, more volatile and water soluble compounds (such as toluene, ethylbenzene, and xylenes) in diesels include potential acute toxicity to aquatic life in the water column (especially in relatively confined areas) as well as potential inhalation hazards. Diesel fuels have moderate volatility and moderate solubility. Diesel products possess moderate to high acute toxicity to biota with product-specific toxicity related to the type and concentration of aromatic compounds. Diesel spills could result in potential acute toxicity to some forms of aquatic life. Oil coating of birds, sea otters, or other aquatic life which come in direct contact with the spilled oil is another potential short-term hazard. In the short term, spilled oil will tend to float on the surface; water uses threatened by spills include: recreation; fisheries; industrial, potable supply; and irrigation.

Long-term potential hazards of the some of the lighter, more volatile and water soluble compounds (such as toluene and xylenes) in diesel fuels include contamination of groundwater. Long-term water uses threatened by spills include potable (ground) water supply. Chronic effects associated with middle distillates are mainly due to exposure to aromatic compounds."

[flyu2there]

Woodchips,

Now you are my hero, I am going to forward my earned "Demerit" ( a true badge of honor) to you :D
Oh, and by the way is that surficant or suficant...inquiring minds wanna know...........

[sawdust_128]

Woodchips,

Now you are my hero, I am going to forward my earned "Demerit" ( a true badge of honor) to you :D
Oh, and by the way is that surficant or suficant...inquiring minds wanna know...........

Flipuoff2: It is neither of those. It is surfactant.

sur·fac·tant - an agent that reduces the surface tension of liquids so that the liquid spreads out, rather than collecting in droplets, e.g. a detergent or a drug

The term surfactant is a blend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blend_(linguistics)) of surface acting agent. Surfactants are usually organic compounds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compound) that are amphiphilic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphiphilic), meaning they contain both hydrophobic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophobic) groups (their "tails") and hydrophilic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophilic) groups (their "heads"). Therefore, they are soluble in both organic solvents and water. The term surfactant was coined by Antara products in 1950.

Hydrophobic - water hating.
Hydrophilic - water loving.

I think you should keep the demerit, send me $10's and $20's instead.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

We in aviation are in trouble.

All this time we sump our tanks thinking the water and fuel will not mix. Another OWT debunked.

[sawdust_128]

We in aviation are in trouble.

All this time we sump our tanks thinking the water and fuel will not mix. Another OWT debunked.


Well, it's a matter of performance in that an engine can deal with a small amount of "wetness" to the fuel. A person can't deal with even a little bit of "fuelness" to their drinking water.

Not a pilot myself, but I always thought the sumps kept bulk water out of the fuel lines so they didn't freeze and close off the fuel lines and filters at altitude.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

They do that too, but are used for fuel sampling. Most planes I am familiar with tend to run lousy on water.

"Dry gas" used for cars will allow fuel to mix with water so it can pass through the engine. I don't use stuff like that in the plane. I always sump for water because a sufficient amount in the fuel system will ruin your whole day and it typically shows up on takeoff converting a powered aircraft into a glider sudddenly. Bad stuff.

[sawdust_128]

I did some checking on cures for this problem. Here are some things that were pointed out to me:

-The oils in diesel will attach to any plastics in the entire system and they will continue to release slowly for a long time. Detergents will not cure this.

-You don't know when it was introduced and thus have no idea as to what was contaminated.

-You will need to check things like built-in coffee makers, insta-hots, washers, ice makers these will be washable with dishsoap and hot water on their external surfaces. Essentially, you should probably read on these forums about winterization of a coach's water systems.

- If they have not been contaminated (should be detectable by wiping and feeling for oily substrate on fingers) they should not be used.

-all water Filters will be toast.

O.K. time for some good news. The type of event you are describing is not that all uncommon. Apparently, this is a not so uncommon event in the livestock and poultry industries where the water supplies are DIY and have faults.

There is a solution and it is flushing with a slurry of activated carbon, followed by a normal potable water system disinfection treatment.

Here's why it is a reasonable solution:

- The carbon will not leave an after taste like a detergent.
- If you have water filters on your coach, most likely at least one element is already carbon.
- If you fail to flush every last bit of carbon out of your supply systems, it won't hurt you.
- The hydrocarbons in the fuel are more attracted to the carbon than the plastics in your system.
- It's relatively cheap.

It would be easy to do by mixing the slurry and introducing it to your water supply through the gravity fills, get it into every part of your system, let it sit, and dump and flush.

Here are some links.

http://www.activated-carbon.com/1-4.html

http://www.bigbrandwater.com/overstock.html

You will need to use a fine PAC (Powdered Activated Carbon)

Here's some basic info from: http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/Treatment/Adsorption-and-Ion-Exchange-Systems-technologies.html I don't know if all the embeddedd links work, but you have the source url and can follow from there.

Powdered Activated Carbon

Adsorption treatment systems add a cleansing substance directly to the water supply or via a mixing basin. Adsorbents combine chemical and physical processes to remove organic contaminants (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss32) and the compounds that impart color, taste, and odor to water.
The most commonly-used adsorbent is activated carbon—a substance which is quite similar to common charcoal. Activated carbon, however, is treated by heat and oxidation so that it becomes extremely porous (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss107) and able to readily adsorb, or capture, the impurities found in water.
Activated carbon also attracts not only known contaminants, but also naturally dissolved organic matter (much of which is harmless). Therefore, monitoring is needed to ensure that carbon doses are high enough to adsorb all contaminants.
There are two different forms of activated carbon in common use, granular activated carbon (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss63) (<ACRONYM title="granular activated carbon">GAC</ACRONYM>) and powdered activated carbon (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss108) (<ACRONYM title="powdered activated carbon">PAC</ACRONYM>). Physically, the two differ as their names suggest—by particle size and diameter.
Powdered activated carbon is an inexpensive treatment option (capital cost) that can typically be added to an existing treatment system’s infrastructure (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss72). This flexibility makes PAC an attractive option for short-term treatment responses to poor water conditions. It is particularly useful to treat taste and color deficiencies.
PAC works quickly and efficiently but it is limited to lower removals than GAC and becomes expensive if it must be used on a continuous basis. When the process is complete the powdered carbon must be removed, usually by filtration (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss55).
Overall, activated carbon is better than ion exchange (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss164) for removing organic substances.
Granular Activated Carbon

The general principles of adsorption systems (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss2) are covered in the section on powdered activated carbon (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss108) (<ACRONYM title="powdered activated carbon">PAC</ACRONYM>).
Granular activated carbon (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss63) (<ACRONYM title="granular activated carbon">GAC)</ACRONYM> consists of particles about a millimeter in size—ten to 100 times the size of the powdered form. It is typically arranged in a bed or column through which source water (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss131) is slowly passed or percolated. Sometimes several adsorption columns are linked together in a single system.
Like powdered activated carbon, granular activated carbon also attracts not only known contaminants (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss32), but also mostly harmless, naturally dissolved organic matter. Therefore, careful monitoring is needed to ensure that enough carbon remains active to adsorb all contaminants. Particulates (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss101) may also clog systems and compromise their effectiveness. GAC systems have a higher capital cost but are capable of accomplishing higher levels of removal, and their operating costs (mostly the cost of replacing spent GAC) are lower if removal is required on a continuous basis.
These systems may also serve as biological water filters without compromising effectiveness if beneficial microbes (http://www.drinking-water.org/html/en/glossary.html#gloss85) are allowed to grow within the system.

Good luck and keep us posted.

P.S. I would drink from a system treated with PAC without any hesitation. I have personally been involved in a clean up of PCB's using PAC. I have seen it applied to save a multi-million dollar crop of ornamental plants in a greenhouse which were accidentally sprayed with a herbicide (2,4-D, bad stuff for broadleaf plants) instead of an insecticide.

You will find a lot of stuff on the web about this and you are free to call me if you need help decrypting all the technobabble.

[truk4u]

Dustman,

I'll sum this all up for ya.... Fuel and water ain't good!:rolleyes: As Jdub would say, "you've polished that turd long enough.":D

[garyde]

:p
Short,

I think it is safe to say a water system that has had stagnant water, and which has been unused for a while may present some funky odors. But a chlorine mix in the proper concentration should cure that easily.

For a sanitizing mix I use approximately 2 1/2 cups of chlorox in my tank. I fill it and run water through all fixtures, the shower, the sinks, the washer, the toilet, etc. I let everything sit for a few hours, and then I dump the tank and the hot water tank.

I refill with fresh water and run water again through all fixtures to flush them. If you do that you can expect to see some nasty colored water and the strong smell of chlorine. Flush as well as you can and drain and refill the tank again. The odor of chlorine might linger a bit longer, but it will be no worse than what you find in some water supplies.

If your odor issue is water that has been sitting in the system and no diesel that should solve your problem. But diesel is a distinct smell and how he could possibly get it in the water tank just by working on the generator is BS. He's lying.

Do old coaches smell like diesel? Yes if maintenance on them has been poor. There is no reason to have diesel fuel leaks or spill any when servicing the coach. I have 215,000 plus miles on my coach and I defy anyone to smell diesel anywhere on it. Others can say the exact same thing. POG members have coaches with a wide age and mileage spread and yours is not at the extreme for age or miles.

But let's assume this wizard or his crew did get diesel in your water. First, diesel is not going to mix with water. It is hydrophobic meaning it will not mix unless emulsified with some enzyme or solvent. It will sit on the top of the contents of the tank. Especially if you weren't driving the coach, and all you did was live in it over night. Unless you guys were really rocking any diesel fuel that found its way into the tank was sitting on the top of the water.

In order for you to deliver that smell through all your plumbing fixtures more than a film was required on the top of the water, and the tank would have to be drawn down until the pump was pulling diesel through it. Assuming that is all true, there was an ample supply of diesel in your tank at one time, and it was drawn through the system via the pump. So the question becomes was this a problem when the dealer had the coach, and assuming it was why did he not discuss it with you? If all it takes is a steam cleaning and a flush, now's the time to say since the solution is so simple, I will bring you the coach and pick it up when you have it clean.

Name this dealer. We want to know and we want to monitor his support of you.

I think you would want to close off the reverse osmosis system from the chlorox treatment or it would mess up that system. There is a seperate procedure recommended by Culligan for purifying that system. It feeds the ice maker and the sink. Also, I have a two part granular filter for the water system. This should probably be removed as well. What do you think Jon?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I agree Gary. I was thinking in context of our coach. We do not have an RO or icemaker.

I forgot to mention after the final flush I replace my two house filters with charcoal filters because charcoal removes the chlorine odor and taste.

I'm sure there are other ways to sanitize and I think the precise method and procedure will be dependent upon each individual bus and how it is equipped.

[Steve Bennett]

We have had coaches come in with stagnate water in the holding tank. I have seen some that have a strong odor similar to gear lube. My guess would be that you have bad water in the tank, lines, heater, & filters not diesel fuel. As John indicated, I believe the tanks just need to be flushed, and sanitized. In addition to what John had said it is best to fill the tank 1/2-3/4. and drive the coach with the chlorine solution in the tank to slosh it around before draining. Make sure you drain the water heater(s) and run the chlorine solution through the heater(s) as well as all faucets, dishwasher, clothes washer, refrigerator & ice maker, shower etc. You also need to make sure all filters are removed before sanitizing the tanks as the charcoal filters will remove much of the chlorine. Be sure to completely flush out the chlorine solution before drinking the water from the coach.

[PLSNTVLE2]

I was thinking the exact same thing about the water. While the smell may resemble a fuel smell, some old crummy water sitting in the tank could mix up a pretty bad odor.
I would take the advice that Jon gave and sanitze the system. It is the quickest and less expensive approach. This is probably a good idea when you take possesion of a new unit anyway. Now you know it is good to go.
I would'nt let the guy who sold me your bus ever touch it again.....

[sawdust_128]

A couple of things I will toss in here.

1. If the water is stagnant, there should be critters visible under a low powered microscope (high school science lab type).

2. Treating with bleach (Sodium hypochlorite) is good for disinfecting and will take a lot of flushing with fresh clean water.

3. You can assure a more complete flushing of the bleach if you apply 1 cup of vinegar (acetic acid) per 15 gallons of water as a rinse and treat the systems like you did when you used bleach.

4. The acetic acid will convert any remaining bleach to table sale (NaCl), free chlorine gas (which will evacuate from your tanks and lines quickly, and peracetic acid which is a mild version of a bleach which is unstable and itself will turn into free oxygen and vinegar.

5. This extra step eliminates the danger of bleach to humans and to our coach systems.

6. Remember in water quality terms, there is no known safe level for the human ingestion of bleach.

So, take this as a turd burnishing or not, just don't hurt yourselves. I kinda like you folks.

P.S. This is what I did with my coach.

[LA-HODAG]

Nobody has mentioned that Short noted "As we drove home the smell was overwhelming in the coach." Seems like there may be a few things going on at once for this new bus owner. What was the smell while driving? Diesel, or just something nasty? If Diesel smell was worse while underway, you need to have the fuel system checked carefully as there is apparently a leak, and this is likely unrelated to the water problem. If there is a fuel leak, is is possible that the diesel smell in the coach made you think it was eminating from the stagnant water in the "fresh" tank? Finally, did you by any chance make the cardinal error with a CC of that vintage of opening the toll or passenger window while at highway speed? Doing so in my bus will immediately suck in nasty smelling sewer gas, through a process I have not quite figured out but have learned to avoid. There should be no way for an odor from the fresh water tank to infiltrate the bus during driving unless you are running water out of a faucet.

Short, flush and sanitize your fresh water tank as recommended, put some tank deodorizer in you black tank, and drive with the windows closed and see how you fair.

[truk4u]

Bryan,

An empty and dry p-trap for the washer/dryer will do it every time.:(

[LA-HODAG]

Thanks, Truk. I don't want to detract from helping Short, but I keep a special squeeze bottle on hand to fill all the drain traps, including the one on the toilet overflow, but I still get odor if I drive with the front windows open. That's why I say I can't quite understand how it happens. It should not. A swivelling wind vane on the roof vent pipe helped, but does not totally eliminate the problem. Now I just don't open the windows -- problem solved and it didn't cost me anything.

Short, you should add filling all the drain traps to your list of steps to keep odors out of your bus. There is an overflow near the rim at the back of your toilet bowl, which has its own trap. If the bus has been sitting and it is dry, you need to use a squeeze detergent bottle or similar to fill it to keep odors from the black tank from sneaking in.

[rahangman]

I was getting the sewer gas smell when I opened the drivers window while driving. Replaced the toilet vent on top with the swivel type. Helped. Then came the smell again. Talked with a fellow while in Colorado and he mentioned a small black check valve on CC types under sink next to wall by toilet. About $4 and we replaced that and 'Voila" no more smell. He mentioned that there is probably one set up for the clothes washer and the shower also. In the meantime, I think I can count that as the cheapest repair/fix so far on our CC.
By the by, thanks for the effort on the catalog, but the files say they are corrupted.

[LA-HODAG]

Thanks, Rodger. I will definitely check out that valve. I had no idea it was there. I suspect that is the culprit because I always smelled more of the odor when I opened the cabinet under the sink. Awesome tip!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Those are air admittance valves and they are typically used when the fixture cannot easily be connected to the waste system vent lines. Most plumbing codes will not allow them because they do fail. When they are used it is typically in a house with an island sink.

When filling traps, also run water through the washer.

[phorner]

Ed,

When this thread started I was tempted to chime in as I spent most of my career in charge of the public water system for our city, but you did such an eloquent job covering the various aspects of water chemistry that my comments weren't needed.

The only point that I can add is that you should maintain a free chlorine residual of 50 ppm for an hour or so to sterilize a typical water tank.

Your points are well made regarding the removal of organics, as they are very harmful and can be a challenge to remove.

Ya did good :D

[Short]

Thanks for the info. The carbon idea sounds good. We did treat and flush the system with bleach followed by vinegar which helped a lot prior to the water test results which did show a presence of diesel fuel (about 3% by volume). I have contacted a carbon source and await a reply.

I think this was probably the source of the diesel smell, but won't know till we get it out on the road. Had to have the air system checked. Needed a small fitting replaced....got lucky on that one! Now it is in the shop trying to get the jake brake to work. The dealer said it was working, but not. That is proving to be a bit more of a challenge. Have any of you had a problem with that on an older Prevost??

Thanks again for all the input!!

[phorner]

Short,

I'm glad to see that you are working through the problems, and believe me, ALL coaches will require something sooner or later.

However, it looks like there is a pattern developing where your dealer made assurances that turned out to be untrue. That's disturbing and I sincerely hope that you are not destined for more serious "fixes", as if the presence of fuel in a fresh water tank isn't enough.

Speaking of your fresh water, it is imperative that your system be completely clear of fuel or fuel by-products.

Carbon compounds, when combined with chlorinated water supplies, can produce trihalomethanes (THM's) which are tightly regulated in potable water supplies. Make sure that you use a state-certified testing laboratory to determine if your finished water quality is safe.

[Ray Davis]

I had a jake brake issue on a 93 CC. It was fine before I went into a Detroit Diesel for a tuneup. It didn't work after.

I took it back, and DD indicated it was a "continuity" problem. Yeah! They forgot to hookup the wires after the tune-up!

That was a simple fix, don't know if it's same as yours.

Ray

[gmcbuffalo]

Short
Is the dealer picking up any of these cost and have you talked to him? Who is this guy or what part of the country is he operating in?
GregM

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Short who is the converter and where did you buy it?

[sawdust_128]

Short, sorry for these issues. The fuel in the water has created a situation which is fixable. You are just going to have to work your way through it. There is plenty of support here on the POG.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Just a reply to the sewer gas problems. I mentioned this a year or so ago and got a lot of flack, but we use diluted CLOROX in all the traps. I love the window open. I had the sewer gas thing in my 93 American Eagle and took years to solve. Never have had any plumbing problems either, same as the house plumbing.

Ed

[LA-HODAG]

Short: You sound pretty knowledgable, so forgive me if this is too obvious, but are you sure the Jake is not working? When I bought my '90 the dealer (a Prevost converter who really should know) told me the Jake was not working, but in fact it works fine. On the 2 strokes, there is almost no noticable braking affect when in high gear, and my jake does not function while the cruise control is engaged regardless of gear, so they thought it was not working. Others with a similar setup have thought the same. For effective engine braking on a long grade I need to downshift once or twice.

Bummer about the fuel in your water tank. Please keep us posted about how you get that worked out.

[Loc]

Short,

The Jake on our 92XL quit working on a trip to California. Replacing two relays remedied the situation. I can't remember if both relays were in the rear engine compartment box above the engine or if one was in the driver's side box below the driver's side window.

Loc

[Pete]

My 85 Prevost American had a jake brake relay about eye level on the rear of the engine above the belt pulley. Very simple to replace, and if I recall not expensive at Detroit Diesel. Be sure to check it.

[Steve Bennett]

A good way to see if the Jake is working properly on an 8V92 is to look at the Pyrometer (if equipped) and see where the temps are when descending off throttle. If the Jake is operating properly, you will see about 500-550 degrees. If the Jake on that bank is inop or weak the temps will drop to 300 degrees. A side benefit to the Jake is that it keeps the combustion chamber temps up which keeps the pistons warm, and the piston to wall clearance within specs. The 8V92's are happiest around 170-180 degrees coolant temp.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Steve you used the term weak? I was once told mine is weak. How can that be what does that mean? Either its workin or it aint:confused: