H-what

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I just saw GM has stuck a fork into Hummer.

Where will that lead and what do you current owners know or expect.

Looks like Saturn is toast too.

2 pretty common toads simultainiously erased, no good Mr bus driver.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The orphaned cars of this country have never lacked for support.

I'd wager Oldsmobile owners can still get service and parts. Even owners of true orphans whose manufacturers do not exist at all such as American Motors can get their Pacers repaired if need be.

Personally I have no clue how either of those two brands managed to stay alive as long as they did. The Saturn never turned a profit. I don't know about Hummer, but it is a type of product that made no sense in the context of the fact that it was nothing more than a boxy, overweight Tahoe. In my business I stopped manufacturing products that failed to make money. In retrospect I am guessing GM may be wishing they had done so also.

If by some stroke of luck the GM management can keep the government out of its face I hope now it only produces the best cars it can in terms of quality, and that it drops any brand or model that does not bring huge profits into its piggy bank. To do anything else is criminal. This is not about producing products to keep plants open, or environmentally significant. It is about making money and the only way GM will make money is to get rid of the unprofitable products, retain those that have a demonstrated ability to provide a good return, and to never ever again manufacture lousy products because if they do their death should be required.

[tdelorme]

Don't get the shovel out, Joe. The Fat Lady ain't singing on the H. The rest of the story is still to come.

Can't get the link adder to work, but cut and paste for the story.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/06/02/gm-in-mystery-deal-to-sell-gas-guzzling-hummer-brand/?icid=main|htmlws-main|dl4|link6|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailyfinance.com%2 F2009%2F06%2F02%2Fgm-in-mystery-deal-to-sell-gas-guzzling-hummer-brand%2F

[Joe Cannarozzi]

The Chinese are going to build them:eek:

Then they will be banned from import for environmental reasons:rolleyes:

[lewpopp]

All of the reading I have done on the subject of GM eschewing themselves of not profitable items, I have not heard a thing on the complete duplication they are making in producing the GMC and Chevy Trucks. Yes, they are (or were) profitable, but a single line of one brand would certainly cut the costs.

There is absolutely no difference between the GMC and the Chevrolet truck, come on you loyalists, bring it on.

[lonesome george]

Lew,
The name plates are different.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Their whole fleet MPG average will have to go up to 35mpg by I forget when.

What is the best possible mileage they will get get out of a 1/2 ton truck or large SUV with a small v-8 and how many 50mpg scooters will it force them to build to reach that average. I do not believe they can replace the 1/2 ton p-u with anything drastically different. Downsizing p-u's would be a disaster.

[GDeen]

As to GM, in spite of the president saying they want nothing to do with running it, the White House appointed 90% of the new board. Thus I am betting they will build electric go-carts, and when the public doesn't buy them, they will simply pass laws to ensure they are bought. Why worry about stinking economics when you can control everything.:rolleyes:

[garyde]

You don't have to look very far to see what works. Check out Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Izusu, Honda, Kia, Hunde, Volkswagon..........need I say more.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

While Gary makes a good point I think we all deal with perception. The 3 major US manufacturers produced junk relative to their foriegn competitors far longer than they should have due to an arrogance that slopped all the way down to the dealer network. They thought they were invincible, but the American public learned there were quality vehicles available elsewhere and started buying them in such significant numbers that the big 3 reached the point they are at today.

But they have learned how to produce good cars, unfortunately they are unable to change the perception a lot of people have about their products.
The camel got its nose in the tent and now our domestic auto producers are stuck with good competitors and we the buyers are the beneficiaries.

My last company brought goods previously manufactured in Korea and China back into our plant and we saved our customer a lot of money annually while improving the quality of the product and completely altering the way our customer distributed the products by producing and delivering them directly to the final customer, something no offshore supplier can do. My point is if US manufacturers really want to regain their position in the marketplace they can, but they will have to completely change their management model, including partnering with the employees all the way down to the lowest production worker. They won't, primarily because their problem is a mangement and employee structure unwilling to change. If they would look at how the domestic manufacturers of foreign brands have structured their personell with production workers being given a large role in decision making they would see how much more brain power they could harness in their fight against competitors.

This entire fiasco will be the subject of many business school courses in years to come.

[edsaylor]

Lew:
:)If a dealership wants to be a good profitable operation, it is essential that they sell trucks and SUV's. Chevy dealers always sell Chevy trucks. If they are going to have a second viable franchise group of dealers selling Buick, they MUST have GMC trucks for them!! Buick would not survive at all without GMC trucks to sell in most markets in the US. Why have Buick, you ask? Because BUICK is the nomber one seller in CHINA, a market aboutg the same size as the US market, and probably getting bigger over the next few years. If GM dropped Buick in the US, the Chinese would not want them. Buick-GMC dealers will be GM's second line of dealers along with Chevrolet-Cadillac. Buick would not last 30 days as a stand alone dealership in most markets.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Gary you have noted all of the imports and how well they do.

I am unaware of any import 1/2 ton p-u's getting 35 MPG. Currently what is the best mileage out there for one, 20mpg?

I do not see the current configuration of the p-u changing so if this is the case how are the manufacturers going to get their MPG average up to 35 mpg when half of the motoring public is in the p-u or SUV?

It is going to be very painful for one side or the other, time will tell.

I wouldn't buy a foreign car even back when they were a hands down better product, certainly not now when Detroit is currently producing the best product during my lifetime.

Now uncle Sam will screw it up, I knew it was too good to last.

On a side note I have never seen a jap car up on the block at Barret-Jackson accept the occasional novelty.

P-U's are a tool for business and commerce and if they would leave them out of the MPG requirement IMO that would be a good compromise.

They can produce as many or as few of the electric scooters they want if they continue the P-U in its current configuration.

[rickdesilva]

Joe
Its gotta killa that Fiat now owns a majority of Chrysler?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Well, goomba, they will have to continue to produce a product the public is interested in.

I think many of the foreign cars are very well made and hence their numbers, I just don't need one.

Currently I really like what the big 3 are building. Lots of styles, lots of performance, you can reliably run one for better than a decade and very affordable.

Rick we are going to get to find out here too. Daimler had the reigns and nothing changed for the worse, some pretty nice stuff developed if you are a car enthusiast.

Next the government will impose household mileage standards that is how they will sell in the future and still allow the gas guzzlers:eek:

I think I should be credited for all the walking and bike riding I do and allowed to sell some carbon credits.

What the big 3 could do is start building motorcycles and add them to their line to meet the mpg averages of the future:rolleyes:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This is getting political because I am going to make some remarks not intended to be divisive, but to point out some facts.

It is easy to mandate 35 MPG, or any other value legislators choose. Implementing that standard will cripple this country. First, people today are buying what they want and can afford and what fits their needs. I have no clue what the average MPG is of the cars sold in the last year or even 6 months, but is not anywhere close to 35 MPG.

Soon the public will realize while fuel economy is a great thing, it is unrealistic to think a soccer mom van is going to deliver that performance without an engine the size of a Briggs and Stratton, or a serious weight reduction in the van. That will raise all kinds of hell. As vehicles shrink in size to meet the standard their mileage will not be 35, but more likely 40 or 45 to offset the vehicles that merely get 28 or 30 MPG. But right now people want larger cars for comfort and safety and their utility.

I want a pickup truck to pull a trailer with my backhoe or my Bobcat on it. It is not going to be able to do that and get 30 MPG, so someone somewhere will be driving a vehicle about the size of a Smart Car to offset my choice of vehicle. The law is dumb and unrealistic but it makes the tree huggers all warm and toasty, and it makes the politicians able to brag they are redu cing our dependence on foreign oil.

Build nuclear power plants for Pete's sake. Then we can use the coal to run our cars.

And FWIW those high MPG cars will not be built by GM or Ford or Chrysler. They may carry the nameplates, but look for them to be produced in Korea or some other offshore country.

[GDeen]

This is getting political because I am going to make some remarks not intended to be divisive, but to point out some facts.

It is easy to mandate 35 MPG, or any other value legislators choose. Implementing that standard will cripple this country. First, people today are buying what they want and can afford and what fits their needs. I have no clue what the average MPG is of the cars sold in the last year or even 6 months, but is not anywhere close to 35 MPG.

Soon the public will realize while fuel economy is a great thing, it is unrealistic to think a soccer mom van is going to deliver that performance without an engine the size of a Briggs and Stratton, or a serious weight reduction in the van. That will raise all kinds of hell. As vehicles shrink in size to meet the standard their mileage will not be 35, but more likely 40 or 45 to offset the vehicles that merely get 28 or 30 MPG. But right now people want larger cars for comfort and safety and their utility.

I want a pickup truck to pull a trailer with my backhoe or my Bobcat on it. It is not going to be able to do that and get 30 MPG, so someone somewhere will be driving a vehicle about the size of a Smart Car to offset my choice of vehicle. The law is dumb and unrealistic but it makes the tree huggers all warm and toasty, and it makes the politicians able to brag they are redu cing our dependence on foreign oil.

Build nuclear power plants for Pete's sake. Then we can use the coal to run our cars.

And FWIW those high MPG cars will not be built by GM or Ford or Chrysler. They may carry the nameplates, but look for them to be produced in Korea or some other offshore country.

Jon, don't forget about Natural Gas - we have had explosive growth in natural gas reserves over the past 5 years alone due to new technologies. Much cleaner burning than oil or coal, and we have found enough now under American soil to last over 100 years at current consumption.

I believe there is much more to come as horizontal drilling and fracturing techniques continue to evolve. The technology already exists to convert diesel power to natural gas, we just need to get the politicians to see the light. Problem is, they are too busy demonizing the oil and gas industry to pay attention and recognize this is an outstanding means of diminishing our dependence on foreign oil.

[phorner]

Probably the smart thing to do is to buy that Hemi Challenger R/T or that Hummer while I still can!

There's already the moaning and wringing of hands over the prospect of all the new econo-boxes being so small and light that they won't stand a chance of survival when in an accident with a full sized truck or SUV.

Now the call is to have these "large, fuel consuming gas guzzlers" off the highways sooner rather than later as a purported safety measure.

Nobody seemed to care about the laws of physics while I was riding my Harley!

Personally, I see only tough times ahead for anyone not on the fuel sipping, econo-box, band wagon. Our government appears poised to dictate the type, size and suitability of the vehicles we have available to us in the future.

I wouldn't be surprized at all to see legislation aimed at making it more difficult to keep our older, perhaps less fuel efficient vehicles maintained and permitted on public highways.

Yep, we're certainly seeing change......:mad:

[rfoster]

Change? Change for the worse. Here we are in the greatest nation on earth and he wants change?

I don't see or hear about any body swimming to cuba or climbing the fence to get to Mexico. What is wrong with everybody? There is no outrage.

Everytime I turn on the TV I see this dude on and the media is kissing his "a". and he is giving away something else that ain't his to give. What happened to free enterprise? Who in their right mind would loan a company who is on the verge of bankruptcy 50 billion? Our new President did. And now that they have declared bankruptcy- who will bet the loan gets paid back - not me. Who wins? The chinese? Now he is overseas catering to a dictatorship that nationalized the oil fields that American companies developed and has become arrogantly wealthy off of the Americans who love our cars.

Every Jeep/Chrysler Dealer that I have heard that got the axe is a Republican. Anybody heard of any different.

Has any bailout money produced any jobs anywhere outside of Nevada?

Harry Reid is having a railroad for tourist built to go the whore houses? I think every taxpayer is on that train if you know what I mean.

Where is the outrage?

I am missing something, I don't get it.

[garyde]

From everything I've read the 35mpg is for a percentage of autos built by 2015 I believe. Some will get there by getting smaller and lighter, others will be Hybrids. i do believe the Truck will always be produced, possibly with some design changes to limit the number of cylinders firing at different speeds.
1st Tier and 2nd Tier parts producers was one of the major reasons GM was saved. They supply ALL auto manufacturers in this country including BMW, Toyota, Volkswagon, etc. If GM went down, many of those companies would have disappeared, so goes the thinking anyway.
With the Unions owning some 40 percent approx. of the new GM its only a matter of time before GM gets broken up further. This is whats called a gradual deflating or bring down of a Company instead of just licqudating.
As far as what I would purchase for me or my Company, I've been a Ford Truck guy for over 20 years, with GMC's for personal use. But I did buy Toyota Trucks in the 70's. They were Cheap and they would run forever.
I do think Natura Gas is the choice for the future, Slim Pickens has been trying to convince people of that for some time now.

[michaeldterry]

What is wrong with everybody? There is no outrage.



Roger - I agree! It scares me to death that there doesn't seem to be any significant show of concern by the majority of my fellow Americans while Obama and the libs are putting our country on a fast track to textbook Socialism! It's as if everyone is afraid to call a spade a spade (no racial context intended) and begin making the difficult choices and decisions required to put the country back on the right track to protect our freedoms and the lifestyle that we have enjoyed for the last several decades.

Wake up, America - before it's too late!

[rickdesilva]

What is happening to the automobile industry in the US under this administration is a travesty.....Since this administration has taken a majority interest in GM and a sizeable chunk of Chrysler there is no doubt that his agenda is to push them to produce smaller vehicles that no one wants to buy. You can't legislate consumer demand. Has anyone looked into the makeup of the car czar and his team. The 2 people identified in the Wall Street Journal are 33 and 31 years old, no auto experience but in charge of picking GM apart. There are alot of great cars built today that just are not selling. Jon was right when he said its a matter of perception. No doubt that the big 3 are producing world class vehicles but the public does not recognize that. They produce good products but still stink in supporting the dealer in the field. The asian brands do a great job in supporting the dealer and the customer. Thats one of the reasons they are so successful. Its going to take a while for that perception to change and I think its going to take longer than expected because the public has lost its appetite for bailouts. But I will say its a great time to buy a car, so go out and write a check.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Well I am delighted to be able to help everyone vent with this therapy session, no charge.

Gordon where does the price of gas and diesel need to be to make natural gas a viable alternative? Were gettin close to 3 bucks again. What about hydrogen, there is an abundant element that seems to make sense.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

There is a reason why we drive the kind of cars we drive and you are proving it.

You want an American made vehicle because in your mind they are more durable. Whatever size vehicle you drive was a choice you made based on a lot of factors. If gas was $3.00 when you bought your last vehicle it might have influenced you to buy a more economical, smaller foreign made product.

We are seeing some government nerds poised to make YOUR next buying decision and they have the weight of the government behind them. They will play with laws (35 MPG), taxes ($5.00 fuel), and other devices at their disposal to shove your next car down your throat.

We use gas and diesel, and not LPG or Hydrogen because it has a lot of energy per gallon and it is still the cheapest fuel. If we went totally nuclear in our electric power plants maybe we could produce inexpensive hydrogen during low power need times, but to put hydrogen or LPG in you tank we need a fuel distribution system the equivalent of what we have today.

To get electric cars to be practical we have many obstacles to overcome, including batteries and range. If you think it is expensive to replace bus batteries, replacing the batteries in an electric car or a hybrid is way more expensive.

Take good care of your current vehicles because in years to come the Smart car will look big compared to what we will be driving to meet the new 35 MPG standards.

FWIW in one of the latest car magazines a comparison between the Honda Insight hybrid and one of the original model Honda Civics was made. The Insight gets 43 MPG on the highway. The old Civic gets 48 MPG. Looks like we are going backwards.

[phorner]

In all honesty, I do believe that there is a small niche where the electric vehicle shines.

As a second vehicle, we have a GEM car (Global Electric Motorcar) which, by the way, is sold through Chrysler dealerships. It's totally electric (72 volts), has a range of some 30 miles and will cruise at 35 MPH. It is restricted by law to roads posted at 40 MPH or less.

Since nearly 90% of our local driving to the grocery store, drug store, bank, restaurants, movies, Home Depot, Wal Mart, etc is within 3 miles or so of us, this little electric car is a viable alternative to driving the Jeep. Now, it doesn't have air conditioning, heat, or even doors for that matter (although you can get them), so I don't see this as a primary vehicle.

But in an urban, or neighborhood, environment where speeds are low, and the necessary range is relatively short, it does the job nicely. I don't know how significant grades might degrade performance, but here in Florida that isn't a factor.

However, in my opinion, the GEM will never replace a "real" car anywhere. There's just no replacement for meaningful horsepower and torque.

So by using this as our "second car", I'm doing my part to offset the carbon footprint of the bus that will be hitting the highway shortly :D

[Pete]

WAY TO GO ROGER! I agree 100% with your statement. That is exactly why the Russians refer to Americans as SHEEPLE. We are being led to a national slaughter by this presidential genius! This country needs to wake up and face reality!

[michaeldterry]

In all honesty, I do believe that there is a small niche where the electric vehicle shines.



We just bought an electric cart from WheelsTo-Go after seeing one belonging to a fellow camper at the Tom Johnson Prevost Rally in April. While I'm sure it doesn't qualify as a "car", it will sure be nice to have under the bus to help get my fat old handicrippled ass around at our destinations! :rolleyes:

Here's a link to thw WheelsTo-Go website: http://wheelsto-go.com/.

We got the optional ramps to load it into the bay and the cart can be plugged in to recharge while we are traveling.

The demo unit we bought shipped on Monday (hasn't arrived yet). Here are a couple of pictures:

[GDeen]

Joe,

The real problem with natural gas fuel is as Jon partly alludes to distribution. Diesel engines have been converted to natural gas use for decades now in certain applications. We had a Cummins 855 TA back in 91 that was a natural gas conversion because it powered a compressor on a natural gas well. Worked great. You have the classic chicken and egg scenario wherein no mass production of LPG vehicles will be built without distribution and vice versa.

My may gripe is this - the current administration is pressing for a transition from liquid hydrocarbons as a primary transportation fuel to solar and wind. No in between steps which is ridiculous. Of all the trillions thrown around for everything you can imagine, funding a distribution system for LPG driven vehicles would get the ball rolling. Don't want government intervention, fine, I agree, but don't disincentivize those who are willing to take the risk and do it in the name of actually making money - the horror!:rolleyes: If we don't get a transition fuel that is cleaner and available, we are just going to be legislated out of "real" vehicles that we all crave.

As Roger points out, we are on a fast track to complete control of our lives by the government, and they would like nothing more than to outlaw the fun we have through our hobbies such as what this board caters to. The "doers" are being villified at every turn, and being a taker and therefore in need of the government is the ultimate goal. Energy policy is a big stick to use to accomodate that goal.

[Kenneth Brewer]

Before anyone runs away with that one, assuming an open mind is present, please check with respected sources such as Snopes.com. Just do a search on Obama's birth certificate. There are other organizations that research and validate or invalidate rumors, but I have not heard anyone claim Snopes as biased or inaccurate. Yet. Enough?

Thanks.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Thanks Ken for bringing Snopes.com to my attention... I should have looked there for more facts before I posted..... I knew better than to bring up something about politics.

BUT I am still pissed about who was elected to run this country. :p

Gary S.

[Kenneth Brewer]

I (usually) don't have a problem with someone's politics; because I have mine, which tends in many if not most cases to be considerably more conservative than other people's, or most people, for that matter.

If one can get through to retirement without being royally pissed off about a presidential election, they have done way better than I have.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I doubt if anyone would consider my views similar to Obama's, but despite my bitching about his actions relative to the meltdown of the financial industry and the propping up of an auto industry suffering from self inflicted wounds I seriously doubt if I could come up with any solution, much less one better than his. I still like to complain however.:)

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Ahhhhhhhhhh look what I started.

Skiffer is swettin bullets. The whole thread is gonna get lasered.:o

I would still like to see a line of Chevy and Dodge motorcycles:rolleyes:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

They have Chevy and Dodge motorcycles, or at least their equivalent. They call them Harleys.

The elite ride BMWs and the Plebians ride the Suzukis, Hondas, and Kows.

[sawdust_128]

Before anyone runs away with that one, assuming an open mind is present, please check with respected sources such as Snopes.com. Just do a search on Obama's birth certificate. There are other organizations that research and validate or invalidate rumors, but I have not heard anyone claim Snopes as biased or inaccurate. Yet. Enough?

Thanks.


FYI:
Snopes, on that particular issue, is not flush with complete information. Most of snopes is written by a husband & wife team. They do the best they can.

[GDeen]

Ok, back on American made vehicles and safer footing for calm discussion ;)....

I bought an 08 Ford Expedition before the end of the year and it is a seriously good vehicle. I have always owned Ford pickups for running the roads in the oil fields with good luck - this vehicle is really well made and the best of the lot so far. I ferried some guys out to lunch in it today who were both suburban owners, and they were very impressed. Kudos to Ford for many reasons.

[hhoppe]

Who woke up all the sleeping dogs?? Where the h were these wonderful conversations prior to the 2008 election? No one even had a vision of where we would be today?? Weve got to stay awake until the 2010 election to start to take our country back and finish the job in 2012. Give me my Freedom, my guns and my bus, you can have the change.

[Sid Tuls]

Well said Harry!!!!! How have ya been?

[jonnie]

Yes, Well said Harry!! Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition

[michaeldterry]

Who woke up all the sleeping dogs?? Where the h were these wonderful conversations prior to the 2008 election? No one even had a vision of where we would be today?? Weve got to stay awake until the 2010 election to start to take our country back and finish the job in 2012. Give me my Freedom, my guns and my bus, you can have the change.

Now, that's change I can believe in! I just pray that we have a country left to take back by 2012!:eek: