Water in Fuel

[rfoster]

I got my last 3 tanks of fuel at Flying J in Knoxville. I am guessing this has been spread over the last 4 to 5 weeks. I recently travelled to North Carolina - no problem- came back in a continuous rain fall sometimes very heavy- Water in Fuel light flashing on and off - no spits, no sputters, then I refueled at a local truck stop and am still getting the message on the large and very vivid display of my CC.

Do I just drain the rycor filter again or do I change it and the primary filter -Or is the fuel (ULSD) of such poor cetane that the computer thinks it is watered down?

Is it possible with all the rain/humidity the sensor was getting a false reading?

Anyone else experience this problem? and what was the corrective action?

[dalej]

Those are all very good questions Roger and deserve some good answers but I've got nothing.

It does remind me of something from last week though. When I fueled in Lubbock, TX. I then headed north to Amarillo, TX. about 109 miles. At a stop light, the guy in the car next to me motioned to me and says... Your fuel door is open. I right away remembered that I didn't even put the cap back on and left the door open, that's the first time for that one. There is so much pressure to hurry at truck stops, for me anyway.

P.S. Bus's are so smooth that I didn't even spill a drop.
P.S.S. Im glad I put the cap inside the filler door during fueling.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Your gettin there Dale, older I mean. Your not that young whipper snapper you used to be :D

You just had a " senior moment " :eek: Get used to it.

JIM

[JIM KELLER]

Roger, In my opinion if you don't see water in your fuel filter you don't have water in your fuel system. Any trace of water will be sitting in the bottom of the bowl and easy to see. I wonder if you are on to something about the " ultra low sulfur " diesel. I have always used a fuel conditioner and cetane boost with each fill up. Sulfur is the lubricant that has been in fuel for years and now removed. Cetane ratings are also at an all time low.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Rodger I agree with Jim you will see it. You mentioned it happened in the rain, Is it still on in the dry?

If not it could be much rain water connecting the end terminal point to ground.

Could be just a spit of unobserved water at the bottom of the bowl, did you drain it anyway?

I installed an oil temp gauge in our PU and I had to go back and shield the sensor wire terminal from wet conditions cause in the hard rain the gauge was "clipping" cause it was not shielded from that moisture sufficiently enough. I think the rain water was creating ground.

Whenever I have drained water from a separator I did not let it effect the service interval of the filter unless it was in the winter and jelling was occurring.

[BrianE]

Jim, Could you share what conditioner/booster you use and how much. Many thanks.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Roger, we experience that every time it rains hard. The light goes out when dried. Ed asks, " Do you have a true Raycor or a Detroit Diesel Fuel Pro?" Ours consistantly comes on but when it dries out the light goes off. We have the Fuel Pro.
At least we know that it is raining when the light comes on:D Try putting a dab of silicone on the sensor and see what happens. Sandy

[rfoster]

Thanks for the responses. No visible water in the bowl. I will hit the road again this week and see if the water in the fuel light is out. Hopefully no rain this trip.

Sandy: I hope your cold is better, mine continues to drag on. Even with the Cold and flu Margaritas that Dr. Micki prescribed. Tell the Captain I have a true Raycor, I even have a minature (1/2 size) on the Gen Set.

Jim: What kind/brand of additives & how much are you using?

JoeC. I have not replaced the filters as yet, I want to see if it was just the rain.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Roger, I am still fighting with it also. Man oh Man~ Are you sure that we didn't get the SWINE Flu from the Pig food?;) Or was there people there from Mexico?:confused:

Sandy

[LA-HODAG]

I have a true Raycor, and I get the light when the connections get wet, especially when I hose off the engine.

--Bryan

[Ray Davis]

Hey Bryan,

Where in the LA area are you? We've got a fairly active southern CA contingent, and would love to get to meet you.

Ray

[rfoster]

I posted another 150 miles today under the clear blue sky and lots of sun. No "Water in Fuel" light today. Sooooo - it must have been the rain?

Welcome LA Man, thanks for the response, you appear to be right on the money.

[rickdesilva]

I had the same problem with my Bluebird. It had an alarm buzzer instead of the light. I had to drain the Racor when it happened and that always did the trick.

[JIM KELLER]

My preferred product is Amsoil. Their Diesel Concentrate is a system cleaner and lubricity improver. The Cetane Boost Additive will increase cetane by up to 7 points. Both products are recommended for use with Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. Both products come in a 16 oz. bottle and treat 80 gallons each. I buy it by the case directly from Amsoil and use it in every Diesel vehicle I own.

For those who do not know, Cetane is to Diesel like Octane is to Gasoline.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

OK Jim, you now have the cynic in me awake.

I am a disbeliever. How can anyone know this additive does anything? And if it does, what exactly does it do and how was it proven and documented?

I'm not breaking your chops just to give you a hard time although that is a secondary benefit, but I am trying to determine if there is a product safe to use that mitigates the loss of fuel economy due to the change in fuels over the last few years.

When I first bought the coach, prior to the change in sulfur content, 8+ MPG was the norm for my coach. That is the Pro Driver information at the end of 5000 miles of use which I reset at every oil change. I was consistently at that average. I towed the Hummer and the speed has always been 62, or more precisely about 1525 RPM in sixth. (my mileage suffers when I run with the King)

Today under the same conditions I am at 7.7 to 7.8, with several 5000 mile blocks at 7.5 or below. Nothing has changed but the fuel.

None of us who runs a generator can get a better estimate of actual mileage than that offered by the Pro Driver. How can we determine we can get better performance or mileage?

[LA-HODAG]

I have noted that, just like me, my bus tends to gain weight over time. I am nearly 500 pounds heavier than a couple of years ago. Due, I guess, to all the junk I've accumulated. Jon is no doubt more meticulous than I, but perhaps there has been some creeping weight gain that accounts for the decreasing mpg? Have others noted decreased mileage on ULS fuel? I seem to get 4.5 to 5 no matter what I do. Love that 8-V!!!

[Orren Zook]

I have noted that, just like me, my bus tends to gain weight over time. I am nearly 500 pounds heavier than a couple of years ago. Due, I guess, to all the junk I've accumulated. Jon is no doubt more meticulous than I, but perhaps there has been some creeping weight gain that accounts for the decreasing mpg? Have others noted decreased mileage on ULS fuel? I seem to get 4.5 to 5 no matter what I do. Love that 8-V!!!

Follow Jon to OKC for the next POG rally - You'll pick up 1-1.5 MPG!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I am extremely sensitive to weight, if you will ignore the fact we tow my wife's H2 Hummer.

Over the past several years I have substantially reduced the amount of "stuff" we carry. We have taken a load of stuff from the house that we never use or that was a duplicate. I have reduced the stuff in my bays. I no longer fill my water tank. If we are going to a campground I start out with 30% water where previously I would fill it.

I always tanker fuel so on a trip that may be 1400 to 1800 miles I will not top off until I get home. My average driving weight as a result is likely 1500 pounds less than the weights when I scale the bus which is done with full fuel and water, but enpty holding tank.

[JIM KELLER]

OK Jim, you now have the cynic in me awake.

I am a disbeliever. How can anyone know this additive does anything? And if it does, what exactly does it do and how was it proven and documented?

I'm not breaking your chops just to give you a hard time although that is a secondary benefit, but I am trying to determine if there is a product safe to use that mitigates the loss of fuel economy due to the change in fuels over the last few years.

When I first bought the coach, prior to the change in sulfur content, 8+ MPG was the norm for my coach. That is the Pro Driver information at the end of 5000 miles of use which I reset at every oil change. I was consistently at that average. I towed the Hummer and the speed has always been 62, or more precisely about 1525 RPM in sixth. (my mileage suffers when I run with the King)

Today under the same conditions I am at 7.7 to 7.8, with several 5000 mile blocks at 7.5 or below. Nothing has changed but the fuel.

None of us who runs a generator can get a better estimate of actual mileage than that offered by the Pro Driver. How can we determine we can get better performance or mileage?

Jon, I know you are a non believer in additives and I knew I would hear from you on this topic.

Because the bottles say so.....

[rfoster]

I recall years ago going on the Jack Daniels Distillery Tour in Lynchburg, Tn.

Someone in the group asked why It (the whiskey) was called Sour Mash whiskey?

The tour guides answer was sharp and dry: It says so on the bottle.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

I'm a non-believer in additives not recommended by the manufacturer of the engine or coach. I have this silly attitude that says the engineers that design these products are likely to have more knowledge about the needs of those products than anyone else.

That is not to say someone can't invent a better mouse trap, but if a product did offer improvements that they say on the bottle, the manufacturer of the engine or coach would buy the product, slap their label on it, double the price and claim it was necessary.

That ain't happening.

[gmcbuffalo]

Jon
I don't think it is as simple at that. I used to think that they did the best with the designs, but it is the best they could. Either because of technology, government restrictions, and costs. There's a whole after market industry that thrives on short comings of OEM products.

My many Excursion came with 265 x 16 x70 tires but the speedometer is more accurate now that I have put 285's on it. The roof rack touches the roof and rubs the paint off, the back hatch doesn't open high enough becuase the put short shocks on it. All this so it would not be too high to fit in a garage.

The engine wasn't designed with enough headboots to support even a little extra pressure if you put a chip in it to get more HP or economy. So why wasn't designed a better OEM chip or better head gaskets? Since they were having problems with the head gaskets and OEM chips they beef the bolts up. But there are those on the web that work on these thing still tell you that if you have your heads off put in after market head bolts. I think money, Government and technology are a major factor in these things.

The only thing that worries me on these after market parts and such is will the OEM parts take the strain.

GregM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Greg,

I agree there are very few things that cannot be improved. What I cannot wrap my brain around is how some liquid in a bottle can make my engine produce more power, give me better fuel mileage, and clean my injectors.

I know the changes in fuel formulation have had a detrimental impact on my performance. What I am questioning is will this or any product reverse the impact, and how are claims the product works proven?

If this product has been proven to not do any harm I would be happy to experiment with it because I have records of every gallon of fuel I have ever pumped into both my buses. It would take me about a year to accumulate enough miles to satisfy myself the claims are valid or they are bogus, but absent a way to determine the magic juice will do no harm I don't dare add it to my fuel. Ditto for stuff claimed as oil additives.

Replacing door struts and head bolts is not akin to adding something you cannot see working. Alll of the things you described have instant results which can be seen or measured.

[Kenneth Brewer]

This is a topic I will claim to have just a bit more than passing knowledge. Chemistry, and molecular chemistry - a subtopic - is complex and problematic when trying address and provide multiple benefits in the area of machine oil, and more specifically engine oil. It is not a simple as just lubricity. Other factors include;

Resistance to oxidation
Resistance to biological growth
Film strength
detergent properties (keeping dirt/impurities in suspension long enough to get to the filter)
temperature conduction (hot plate test)
acidity resistance (pH neutral properties - buffering)
wear resistance vs film strength (four ball test)
viscosity
viscosity maintenance
foaming resistance
water solubility (and resistance to retention)
freezing resistance
stratification/separation/precipitant resistance
sulfuric acid resistance (and generation)
etc.

For just a brief bum's rush through this, just a taste:

Vegetable oils for years had very high film strengths that exceeded petroleum oils; (racing) castor oil, whale oil, and ultimately rapeseed oil at one point. But, these vegetable oil based lubricants, while having great lubricity, turn rancid after a period of time when stored or in a crankcase/sump. Furthermore, they were not so good with rust prevention. Or viscosity range with temperature change. Or detergent ability. Or resisting growth of 'stuff' in them. Etc.

That's (one reason) why they were mixed with fuel and burned with it. They had high film strength, and in these applications could lubricate without bathing or sumping or pumping. But soot/carbon generation is/was an issue, but not necessarily a big problem with two strokes where the oil/fuel were mixed before carburetion, because periodic top end teardown was part of maintenance.

To whittle this down a lot: a motor oil or fuel formulation is a blending and balancing act. Additives off the shelf can RUIN the rating and applicability of oils and fuels. All bets are off unless specifically approved by the manufacturer of whatever it is the additives is being applied to. If anyone has superior knowledge they are (of course) welcome to dismiss what I have said in this little ranting (sorry, this is/was a hot button of mine).

Unless there is a specific issue being addressed by the additive that someone has direct expertise in, roulette is being played. To suppose that someone can, by instinct and label (ad) reading, perform better than years of (expensive and time consuming) labwork and trial is more than just presumptuous, it is usually counterproductive and possibly dangerous, and at the least, wasteful.

[gmcbuffalo]

Good points. I tried once adding ether to my gas once to get better mileage (theory was it was suppost to make a more even ingntion of fuel) but I didn't drive the truck enouh, or remember ot always add the ether or put the necessary miles on with and without to get any valuable data. Sometimes this stuff id just "feel good" products. Until someone like you that can account for every drop of fuel tries these product we will never known the truth.
GregM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ken,

I was going to say that!:rolleyes:

You said in an excellent and informative way why I am afraid to add anything not endorsed or recommended by the engine or transmission manufacturer.

I just don't know enough to be able to measure harm or benefit, and your explaination makes us aware of potential dangers we would never even consider, but which are all possible.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

O/K what about this Z-max product that claims to soak into the metal?

I do not believe that is possible:confused:

Ken I am guilty of putting Lucas oil additive in my engines. I am probably guilty of all the above suggestions of potential side effects but I can also verify that I also see increased oil pressure all the way through the oil change cycle with it.

Can you tell me about Lucas Oil additive? I do run it in the 8-V too.

[Kenneth Brewer]

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

[Kenneth Brewer]

Joe,

The best answer I can give is: I don't know. That way I don't have to keep my lies straight. It is possible to permeate metals to some degree - in the cases I am/was familiar with - heat is usually involved - i.e., for case hardening, nitriding, and other types of bonding. Certainly, to my understanding (I am not a chemist or metallurgist), the depth of this sort of thing might be in microns. And such treatments do work, insofar as I am aware, but what I am not certain of is whether this is or can be accomplished to an effective degree by contact with a fluid containing these molecular compound chains. I am not sure the carrying liquid is necessarily "oil" as we think of the term, in that bottle of stuff on the shelf being sold as an additive.

What I feel I am on firmer ground with is; attention must be paid on what side effects can be generated - some treatments are through trace amounts in the carrier (in this case oil), either because of the pH (acidic or caustic), certainly solubility, maybe hygroscopic tendency (affinity for water), salts (not table salt), etc. Contamination and poisoning (of the constituents in the oil) of components for things such as anti rusting, anti foaming, microbial growth) is always an issue. And other stuff I don't have a clue about. And expense (in manufacturing and materials) is always a factor in formulation. I would say if the results were that good, it is likely that the oil manufacturer would/will include it in the first place.

In any case, lubricity is NOT the only requirement for an oil, particularly for a sump/pump system. Another taste of an issue (the importance of which I also don't really know) is the corrosion that can take place on metal at the oil level/air junction in a sump (oil pan). That is one reason why some oils may be approved for certain engine (aluminum vs. cast iron) or gasket/o-ring materials only. Keep in mind also; sulfuric acid is produced by the combustion of plant based hydrocarbon fuels. That is one reason ULSD fuel is mandated now.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

I recall years ago going on the Jack Daniels Distillery Tour in Lynchburg, Tn. Someone in the group asked why It (the whiskey) was called Sour Mash whiskey? The tour guides answer was sharp and dry: It says so on the bottle.

Roger I went on that same tour, did you get any Whiskey Samples? :confused: All we got was lemonade :mad: :D

Gary S.

[gmcbuffalo]

Gary I went on the Jim Beam tour and got a Mint Julip.
GregM

[rfoster]

My two best friends: Jack and Charlie Daniels.

Gary: No free samples. Moore County Tennessee (were the Lynchburg distillery is located) is a dry county. I don't know about now but years ago when I went you could not buy beer in the county- much less the hard stuff.

That may be changed by now as all governments are going for any tax dollars they can get.

It might have been 20 years ago, I still remember a good time. Some ole fart with overalls on and half pint bottle of Jack in his back pocket led the tour and stated he had only wrecked twice and most of the passengers as he recalled survived. But then his memory wasn't too good. At the time I don't think he was acting the part - he was living proof of alcohol was used as a preservative.

Also last nights local news covered discovery of a local moonshine still (Unico County on the Carolina border) capable of 50 gallons a day and appeared to be in operation for the last 10 years.

[truk4u]

King,

Are those sqeezins blue in color?:o