Insulated Windows

[flyu2there]

While this problem relates to another coach that I own, it may/could be an issue with certain windows on the Prevost. My question is whether or not anyone has sucessfully taken apart an IG (thermo-pane) window and re sealed same?

Steamed up IG windows or the dreaded seal creep......looks like they could be pulled apart and re sealed without too much difficulty....do I need a new crack pipe or is this within the realm of possibility?

John

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have not, but a reputable glass man said it can be done if the moisture inside has not etched or clouded the glass. It seems bogus that moisture can etch the glass, but he assured me it likely will happen every time and fairly quickly.

Lew had a glass company make his thermopane and he can give details on that and I think Brian went with thick single pane glass in the Green Machine

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

John, I don't know the answer to your specific question, but will pass along something I may try on my window.

I was thinking to simply (with a glass bit) drill a small hole at the top and bottom edges (in an inconspicuous place) through only one pane.

Blow dry Nitrogen or Oxygen into the space until the moisture droplets disappeared, then seal the holes with epoxy.

JIM

[truk4u]

Brian put single pane on the driver and passenger windows and they're great!

[lewpopp]

My stationary door windows that I replace with dual pane glass are still crystal clear.

During a conversation the other nite, the guys were talking about this company, on the west coast of Florida, who was making replacement thermalpane windows a lot cheaper than they cost from the coach co or the manufacture. This guy had a glass co and needed more Lewbucks and expanded and I guess it's working out great.

I will ask who it was if I get inquiries.

[adamdegraff]

John,
yes, I did exactly this to my coach. 3 of my four double pane windows were fogged up (even heavy drops of condensation.) The glass man warned me about etching, but I didn't think it would be a big deal. And it wasn't. He cut out the windows, split them, cleaned them, put 'em back together, sealed them, and filled them with some sort of dry air/gas. And the looked great. However, 10 months later, I think I may be noticing some intermittent fogging. Though I can't be sure. I'll let you know if it gets worse. But still, if the seal didn't hold, and they fogged up again, I'd do it all over again, with a gentle reminder to my glass guy that he might try to figure a way out to seal them better.

Lewpop's post was what got me to try this in the first place. But honestly, I didn't see any reason to get new glass. The old glass was fine. The etching thing... well, I have pretty good eyes and I didn't notice anything. And yes, the windows had been fogged to the point of large, standing drops of water on the inside of the glass.

Does anybody know what causes this? I realize it has to do with disparate temperatures and humidity, but can it happen both ways.... IE cold inside and hot and humid outside or cold outside and humid inside? Both?

If you have any questions, let me know.

Best,

Adam

[dale farley]

l'd check to make sure I could drll before I started. I had another RV one time and decided to drill a small hole in one of the side windows. It shattered into about a zillion pieces. Evidently, tempered glass doesn't like being drilled.

[phorner]

I think when the time comes for us to change out the window glass that we'll go with the single pane solution.

I don't think that there is any real compelling reason for to be overly concerned about retaining the dual pane glass.

Truks window glass looks great!

[flyu2there]

I have not, but a reputable glass man said it can be done if the moisture inside has not etched or clouded the glass. It seems bogus that moisture can etch the glass, but he assured me it likely will happen every time and fairly quickly.

Lew had a glass company make his thermopane and he can give details on that and I think Brian went with thick single pane glass in the Green Machine

Jon, et al...Thanks for the replies,

I have read that there are several company's that specialize in doing the re-seal. Gather it has become a rather grave problem throughout the M/H industry, especially prevalent for those who spend time in or near the sun belt; they further claim the life span of IG is somewhere between 5-7 years.

There is another group that sells "instructions" on how to re-seal, including some kind of self constructed special tool, not sure if that is snake oil or not!

I am thinking I will take one apart and see if I have the ability to do the job, sans any formal training or instructions.....after all the worst case scenario is a little lost time, the window would need to be replaced anyway. Reverting back to the first paragraph, I also read where the general concensus as to cause of the "leaking" windows has been from low VOC glues and sealants that have been required for some time now. One of the advertising re-sealers, in Oregon, claims to use something called Superseal when he remakes the window sandwich. Further research shows that this stuff is available in gigantic rolls only.

So, in the final analysis, what would be the best adhesive to re-build the windows? The givens are that it must adhere tightly to glass and be waterproof as well as somewhat flexible. I think I will just clean up the existing seal and go from there on a hot day with low humidity (the desert should suffice). Don't think that RTV or Silicones are the answer.

Regarding etching, that takes acid. Just wonder if "etching" is perhaps a broad brush for deposits on the glass from dissolved solids, like calcium which I could envision developing from moisture being drawn up into the window from less than pristine surroundings, dirt, dust, etc. Kind of like water spots on you exterior windows from washing with crummy water and allowing to dry...dunno.

John

[phorner]

I'm guessing that you're correct about the "etching". Probably staining related to calcium/mineral deposits left behind by the water vapor when it dries out on occasion.

Unless you're getting acid rain into the air space between the panes, which would suggest a much different problem!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

FWIW on my 87 coach the glass lens over the rear camera would fog up on cold nights. Taking a shower was a sure way to add enough moisture to the air on the coach side of the glass so I would not have any visibility for hours.

So I removed it, cut a matching piece of glass, and on one glass I drew a bead of silicone RTV sealer about 1/4" diameter around the perimeter. I then heated that glass up so it was too hot to touch, and placed the second piece of glass on top of the bead, wiggling it only enough to see that it was in perfect contact with the bead around its entire perimeter.

Then I just left it alone until the silicone cured.

RTV silcone has some characteristics that I tried to use to my advantage. First, by heating it up the air between the two pieces of glass was warm, and hoepfully had very little moisture in it. When I put the second glass on the bead, whatever air was trapped would cool, and pull a very small negative pressure. Since RTV absorbs moisture during its curing process (from the humidity in the air) I was hoping whatever small amount of moisture I had trapped would be absorbed by the RTV.

It apparently worked because after I installed that home made thermopane rear camera glass I never got fogging, and I never saw evidence of any dirt or foreign matter between the two pieces of glass.

The only downside, and the reason I probably will not try the same on the front side glass is that I didn't draw a perfect silicone bead, and it looked uneven. Since the rear camera fiberglass housing obscured the sloppy bead it did not matter, but on the front glass I'll wager it would be visible and look lousy. When I get around to changing my front glass I will likely use a single thick pane of safety glass.

[flyu2there]

I just picked this up from another source, pretty much says it all, I hope:D

"There are four ways to repair an insulated glass coach window.
1. Remove the insulated (IG) glass panel. Separate the two panes. Remove and clean off the sealant/adhesive/spacer (a tedious,time consuming job). Wash the glass panes with R/O water rinse. Re-apply the appropriate seal. Re-assemble the glass panes to form the IG unit. Press the new IG panel through rollers to ensure a good seal and uniform thickness. Re assemble IG panel to metal frame with glazing seal.
2. Remove the IG panel. Use it as a template to have new tempered glass panes made. Re-assemble as above.
3. Remove the IG panel. Send it out to a specialized IG unit source to use as a template to mfr. a whole new IG panel. Re-assemble as above.
4. Build a new window.
IMHO, the best way is #4. That way you get a complete new for which the manufacturer will generally provide a limited warranty. There are many pitfalls that can be encountered by a small glass shop trying to repair an IG panel as in #1. Most will not attempt it. Most would order a new IG panel the, install it to your frame (#2).
BTW, the IG panel is assembled with regular atmospheric pressure inside; not a vacuum. The heat transfer and sound insulation is provided as a result of the dead air space between the dual panes. If they used an internal vacuum atmosphere all of the panels would have concave surfaces due to atmospheric pressure outside (14-15psi). Very undesirable."

[michaeldterry]

I will ask who it was if I get inquiries.

Lew - I need to replace my driver's side dual pane window. Please find out who the cheaper Florida company is and post contact info!

Thanks!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

John, Generally they are argon filled, although I believe any inert gas will work. I wanted negative pressure in my home made one to assure the silicone seal was 100%.

A slight negative pressure is not the same as a vacuum.

[flyu2there]

Well, as you may have suspected, this job is no fun! The seal appears to be windshield sealant with an aluminum backing....should I say fronting, because it is the aluminum that is visable when looking at the glass. That filling for the sandwich appeared to have several small voids that surely compromised the thing, they were only visible under bright light with all of the other stuff removed.

First you must pull out the entire window and casing, thence disassemble the frame to get at the pane. Course there are handles and trim pieces and such that also have to be removed, glued on, naturally. A lineolum knife was my weapon of choice to open up the sandwich then reverted to a razor blade to remove most of the old junk. A bath in lacquer thinner worked well followed by a wash and rinse in R/O water. I am troubled as to how to inject a gas into the sandwich, once made, without moving the seal which also serves as a reveal on the window. I think the only way is to make the sandwich with ambient air, let it bake for a day or two thence push in some dry nitrogen (that I have) with an exhaust hole opposite...maybe a basketball filler tip thence seal up the holes.....this cannot be an exact science. Looks like the only viable way to do this job is to have a glass shop get one some of that aluminum faced goop, anything else looks like it could be a real challenge. I also found "etching"....just mineral deposits, easily dispatched with the razor blade.

Right now, I do believe that this job would have been unnecessary had I pulled the window (s) prior to any leakage and simply resealed the outside of the entire sandwich with RTV. Still is a royal PITA however easier and cheaper than a window replacement or, as I am attempting to do, remaking the sandwich.

John

[flyu2there]

Before and after. Used Laurence double sided high density dessicant filled tape, blew it full of N2 and sealed with RTV. Test drove the thing in the shower, no fog, no seal creep................still a ROYAL PITA but this was done to a large window, with minimal training....Prevost side windows would be a walk in the park.

John

[flyu2there]

I just finished the 16th window that was leaking! Total cost, about 50.00!
While as I mentioned this job is no fun, it is not difficult even on the most convoluted windows. The etching was just dirt and other junk, razor blade should remove all signs.

A digital camera is helpful, but for the most part you remove the window, frame included. Thence you break down the window or separate the glass from the frame. Using a razor blade (I would not advise using Gillette Blue Blades, Double edged) you break the seal on the glass. Garner a suitable tool to cut thru the existing seal, usually metal and urethane. Separate the two glass pieces making certain that you label top/bottom, outside/inside. Clean the hell out of them, finish with ammonia. Apply double sided tape to one of the windows (the stuff with dessecant in it) and put the windows back together. Clean the inside of the windows again before you do this stage. Seal the edges with Black RTV, put a piece of ply over the top of this sandwich and let it sit for 24 hours, suitable weight helpful...I used my wifes silver chest...don't tell her!. Re assemble window, install in vehicle.

PS, I had a jar of N2 but I think most of that went into the atmosphere.....

New IG is pricey. The local yokals will do it for 60.00/hour. Takes about 8 hours for a big window, the Prevost windows, maybe two, at the most. Nobody will offer a guarantee so...what the hey, do it yourself.

Household windows, especially big ones, may not be advisable.........

John

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

I just had my drivers / passengers side door windows, and toll windows tinted last week, with 3m window film, by a tint proffessional. :cool:

Having them tinted turned out to be a major improvement over the previous untinted windows as far as heat, glare and sunburn on the left arm and leg while driving.

For legal reasons they could not tint them quite as dark as the other side windows, but for my money it was a great investment in my driving pleasure.

Never saw anybody post information about having this done to their bus, so I thought I would be the first?

Gary S.

[BrianE]

Based on my experience with installing single pane windows in the Green Machine, I just changed out the windows on our Royale due to the same old bugaboo of internal fogging. Tom's windows are a complete window and frame replacement built by Peninsula Glass Co. http://www.peninsulaglass.com/. I took a little different approach to the Royale and replaced the glass with standard 1/4" tinted safety glass combined with a close cell seal to compensate for the difference in thickness of the dual pane windows. The tint is exactly the same as the windshield and is a big improvement in glare reduction.

I would be willing to take bets from anyone (John?) that a difference in sound level can't be detected. I guess it is possible that in extremely cold weather the dual pane setup might not fog as quickly, especially in a seated bus with 40 or so passengers. :rolleyes:

[0533]

I had Prevost car replace (brand New) the front door movable window last June, it is now fogging again, the window is exactly one year old, definitely a flawed design, can't withstand the constant opening and closing of the door or was simply made poorly by the supplier.

PS> Thanks for reminding me, as all Prevost Car installs come with a One year warrantee. I just checked and it was installed at Prevost car Quebec last July 7, 2008. I am about to email Prevost to put them on notice.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have two foggy windows. I dealt with this issue on the first bus and I keep putting it off on this one because unless I take the single thickness glass approach this problem never goes away. Prevost has never sold side window glass that did not fog almost immediately and dealing with Sikaflex is very low on my list of things to do. I would rather change airbags.

I am likely to fix them before OKC, but I think I will do the repair myself by disassembling them and resealing them. I just have not decided how I want to do that. I am likely to follow John's recipe. I will not get replacements from Prevost.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

In this months FMCA magazine ( June 2009 ) in the Readers Forum on page # 20, there is an article from a member about his great experience with window replacement @

Suncoast Designers Inc.
15050 Labor Place
Hudson, Fl 34667
727-868-2773
http://suncoastdesigners.ccwindow.com/rvservices.html


No personal experience, just passing on the information.

Gary S.

[Don]

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$92.21 window fix


I had my 1996 prevost coach foggy stationary driver side window removed the double pains split apart cleaned and resealed for $92.21 on October 26 2012 invoice # 4224. In West Virginia the window company is under new management Top Hat Chimney Sweep with the same window repair employees call 304 536 1515 or 304 667 7997. The glass is perfictly clear as of March 20 2013 what else can I say other than I arrived at closeing time 10/25/13 parked on their lot overnight and was back on the road at around 3 pm 10/26/13
labor $80.00
Glue $6.99
Tax $5.22
Total $92.21




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[dale farley]

Don, This is one of those times when, "a little bit of money makes a lot of difference".You did good!