House Batteries

[truk4u]

I knew my house batteries where heading south for a couple of reasons.

First, the charging system through the Traces Inverters are working properly, keeping the batteries on the 12v side at 13+ and the 24v side 26+. The alternator also is doing it's job when running.

Second, as soon as shore power is unhooked, the batteries go to barely 12v and 24v, with only the fridge running. I could tell they were getting worse when dry camping since they would only last 5 or 6 hrs at best, before getting down into the low 11's and 22's.

Third, the batteries where very hot since the charger had to work all the time to keep them up.

So, I pulled them all out, 6 Lifeline AGM 4D's and after load testing, I had 5 bad ones and one good.:eek: 3 of them where so bad they couldn't even stand the 10 second load test without dropping to the bottom of the gauge. When I bought the bus, I miss read the date codes and thought they were 2003's. Once I got them out I found date codes of 3/01 instead of 1/03.:mad: The 2 generator batteries are 27T's and one of them was weak, also date code 3/01. Pretty good batteries from Lifeline lasting 5 1/2 years.

The moral of this ugly story is check your batteries with a load tester and that is not an easy task since the cables have to be removed. Caution, on mine I had to disconnect the ground from the equalizer, kill all 12 and 24 breakers, shut down the inverters and kill the breakers. If you only have one bad one, it will drag down all the others. Also, the batteries will live a long time if not discharged below 50%, which is 12.2v or 24.4v. My autogen is set to start at 12.2v. Doing this myself using new Lifelines cost 2100.00 and I was quoted a range of 3800.00 to 4300.00 at Marathon and Prevost.:eek:

Now if I could just get Big Jerry to fly down here and lift the new batteries into the compartment, I'll be all set, 134 lbs each.:D

[ken&ellen]

Tom, I thought those were " life time " batteries? When I got my Liberty I found out a couple of days prior to a trip to Atlanta that my house batteries were in very poor condition. $1500 later and six new L161 Trojan, @ 121 lbs ea., we headed for GA. I keep those babies watered weekly and keep an eye on charging rates from both the alt. and my Xantrex inverter / charger. Ken

[win42]

Ken
Batteries UGGH !!
I fought this battle long and hard on both coaches. overcharging, cooking the water out, killing them.
Finally a solution to the problem: I use 8 ea. 6V Trojan golf cart batteries ( $65.00 ea. wholesale ) connected in pairs (Series)to make 12V. tie them all together in paralell. Connect the + at one end of the group and the - at the other. Connect a 12V " Battery Tender " charger to each pair of batteries (4 chargers total). These little chargers will not over charge the batteries, they come on, charge to an upper limit, shut off, and come back on at a lower limit. I leave the main 12V coach charger shut off at the dash switch unless the little guys fall behind while parked with heavy 12V use ie; two ceiling fans running all day. Boost the batteries up to full charge and shut it off again.
See EBAY for "Battery Tenders".
No more acid smell permeating into the coach, no more batteries destroyed by over charging. Waa Laa !!

The 24V starting batteries are another case. One battery would start to get weak causing a constant full charge to cook the others. Simple remedy: Plug the charger into a day timer (sprinkler type works) set it to go on for an hour in the middle of the night and Waa Laa !! problem solved.
" Lifetime Batteries " ? What living creatures lifetime are they reffering to?
My 6V Trojan batteries last aprox. six (6) years in the coach and in my electric Golf Cart. $ 65.00 x 8 = $ 520.00 every six years is not a bad deal.
Remember to not over fill with water, but check them periodically ( your maintenence calendar )
If one battery in a group goes bad, change them all or trouble is around the corner. Use the good ones somewhere else until they die also.
Several battery companies have had to close their doors since I solved my problem.
Good Luck

[lewpopp]

We speak of Lifeline batteries, not Lifetime. Nuf said for the very best battery and the most expensive.

Wish I understood how you did the battery thingie. Sounds easy, but it is above me to understand.

BTW, the Lifeline batteries are sealed and do not need watching.

[win42]

Lew
Lets face it, the battery people have us by the gonads no matter which way we turn. Every 5-6 years were back at their door with more $. I'll consider Lifeline next time around. The math seems to be 2100 minus 520. For the $1580 difference I'll put the water check on my maintenence calendar. The new "Optima" deep cycle no water batteries may be another way to go.
The last group of lifeline battery's I saw were in a big pile on the ground after being replaced in less than six months. They were being replaced at no cost by the manufactuer of the the batteries or the coach. They came out of a brand new Newell.
We'll just have to put up with the man made stuff until the robots take over completely. You can check out my battery thingie in Santa Fe if you wish. Nothing I do is perfect, but only an attempt at survival.
Harry

[truk4u]

Harry,
Some of us have no choice but to use the AGM's. My dual 4000 watt Trace Inverters have a software update that requires only AGM or Gel and the battery compartment has a placard warning of using anything else. The orginal Lifelines in the Bus (1997) lasted until Jan 2001. The group I just took out lasted 5 1/2 years and I think that's pretty good.

Anyone with a Marathon that's interested, here are a couple pictures of the finished product...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d905b3127cce8b6dbf4f3e7c00000016100EcM2TJwxZMX
6 New 4D's and 2 New 27T for Generator

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d905b3127cce8b6dbf5abf5900000016100EcM2TJwxZMX
This is what the Equalizer looks like, ground must be removed prior to doing any work on the batteries. There is one up front for the house batteries and also one in the rear for the start batteries.

It's a big job, but the end result is knowing it's done right.;)

[ken&ellen]

Tom, Nice work. Great pictures. With those twin 4000 watt inverters can you run the AC? Ken

[win42]

Tom
Thanks for the input and the great pictures. Your coach is six years newer than mine and I would expect it to have more modern equipment. I would welcome you and the other guys to critic my battery and other systems in SFNM. Like I said before, I have been winging the Prevost thing alone for the last 9 years. It is nice to have others to bounce stuff off of. I'll try and take a crash course in battery equalizers. There is a Trace inverter in our coach that we use to run the refrigerator while on the road, (size wise? ).
Harry

[truk4u]

Ken,
Yep, it will run an A/C and will be interesting to see how long it will run until reaching the 12.2 voltage where the gen starts.:cool:

[Coloradobus]

When we picked up our "H" Oct 2004, we did a battery/auto-gen start test.
With 2 cruise airs on, the bedroom ceiling fan, lights, TV (tubed typed) and of course the frig, it took a little over 3 1/2 hours before the generator started. We thought not bad for all that load. So , we have no trouble making it thru the night and then some.:)
Had the house batteries load tested the first of the year, after almost 2 years, still in great shape.

[truk4u]

Bus,
Good info, can't wait to try it out and see how long it will go, yours sounds really good with 2 A/C's running. What a difference in compartment temps now with the new ones. Hardly any heat at all as compared to really hot with the bad batteries, almost too hot to touch.:eek:

[ken&ellen]

Tom, You guys with all your fancy equipment in your newer coaches. Ellen & I have to put blocks of ice into our cooling units and let the fan blow over them to cool our old coach.:p Ken

[Coloradobus]

Tom.

We know all too well about battery heat. Last September after Katrina hit, we made a quick trip to Jackson, Mississippi. While in Jackson (martial law) the coach decided to puke 2 of the chassis batteries. From Memphis down, we had a weird smell in the coach when stopped. ( Icon lite for batteries lit) When we got to the lot to collect our vehicle, I popped opened the bay door where the chassis batteries were.......Whew!!! and were they hot.
Luckily, we found a Interstate Battery dealer open, with phone, power and batteries. Presto, installed new ones, headed out of town before dark, and got to Little Rock by 1 am. with the van on a flatbed behind the coach. Tried to attach a photo, but no luck.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Just some general comments after living with the issue since 1990.

For bus starting batteries I will not purchase anything but Delco 1150. They are sealed and give at least 5 years of life unless you ruin them by letting them get down on voltage. No corrosion, no adding water, no problems. When the first one starts to go, it affect the other three, so it is best to bite the bullet and replace as a set.

Tom is right about how your coach is set up in more ways that one. The inverters are programmed for a specific battery type and gel, agm and wet cell all have different charging protocols or votages. My Heart inverters can be set with dipswitches if I switch battery types. It sounds like Tom's is programmed in.

Older coaches often had the batteries near the engine. My old coach was that way and the best service by far was from Delco group 27 maintenance free wet cell. Gel cells could not take the heat. If your batteries are away from the heat then AGM or gel is a good alternative.

Plan on five years, and if you recharge them before they get depleted they will go through a much greater number of charging cycles before they die. Any life you get after five years is a bonus.

[BUSTER]

I went to my Country Coach 98 XL today to start to put some things on board for Santa Fe. I store my coach in a warehouse with no electricity. When I leave it I turn off both chassis switches, the domestic battery disconnect and both inverters inside the coach. This is what Country Coach told me what to do when I asked them this summer. I bought the coach used in May from Marathon in Florida. I am the second owner. When I went to fire up the coach ( I had not been there in about 30 days) the Prevost fired right up but my inverters would not turn on. I fired up the generator externally and the inside powered up....after 45 minutes my domestic batteries read 12 volt(initially it read 10 volt). I shut everything down and went to the battery bay. I have 6 large white batteries that are deep cell and do not need maintenance....but I saw that the first ground connection was corroded and needed cleaning so I cleaned that.

Here are my questions?

Did I shut all power off? I do not know why the house batteries were low.

If you run these expensive white batteries down, does it ruin them?

Could the corroded ground terminal been part of the problem?

Country Coach told me to charge the batteries...but it appears the only way I can do that is to take "THE BUSTER" on an eight hour trip...which means I will get a great charge heading to Santa Fe with the Calfornia group. What do I do when I store it in this warehouse?

BTW.....I am not really competent mechanically but usually get it if I see someone else do it or if I get walked through it.

All ideas will be greatly appreciated.

Mike Simmons

[Ray Davis]

Mike,

I'm guessing you might have either a leak when your systems are off, or you didn't get things all the way off. On my CC, I have two sets of disconnects. Back in the engine compartment are two disconnects, which I believe both have to do with the 24 volt system. However, there is a 12v disconnect system as well. ON my CC, there is a switch on the main panel, above the passenger seat, which is a electronic switch. And there is a mechnical switch down in my electrical bay, which is labled 12v disconnect. I aways turn off the 12v system from the inside, and I have stored my unit for pretty close to 30 days without the issue you're describing.

You've indicated there is no electricity at your warehouse. Is there light? If so, you can connect to an external solar panel to try to keep the charge up on the batteries. But, if there actually is a real drain going on, you'll want to make sure that you clear that up first.

An external battery charger, when you have access to electricty might be a valuable accessory.

I'm always worried about this, so I try to make the 45 mile trip to my coach at least once every couple of weeks, and start the coach and run it for 30 minutes or more.

Ray

[merle&louise]

If anyone is interested, I have found a device that will extend your batteries life by as much as 2 or 3 times. It is called PowerPluse.:)

PulseTech PowerPulse is a relatively new electronic device that pulses charging current in a manner that slows down and even reverses sulfation on battery plates. This technology was orginally developed for the military. It extends the life of wet or Gel batteries by as much as 2 or 3 times the normal life. I am going to install them on my coach this week.:D

[garyde]

If anyone is interested, I have found a device that will extend your batteries life by as much as 2 or 3 times. It is called PowerPluse.:)

PulseTech PowerPulse is a relatively new electronic device that pulses charging current in a manner that slows down and even reverses sulfation on battery plates. This technology was orginally developed for the military. It extends the life of wet or Gel batteries by as much as 2 or 3 times the normal life. I am going to install them on my coach this week.:D

Can you give me a link, or phone #?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Desulfication-We just bought a charger with the same feature. Gotta disconnect and do them 1 at a time to get them done correctly with the portable we have. Early results look very encouraging! Takes 24hrs According to directions. Up to 5, 24hr sessions may be nessesary.

I took a totally wore out deep-cycle sittin in the garage and after 1 cycle and a rest it was 12.4. After the second cycle and a rest it tested 12.6. Its out in the garage right now going through cycle 3. Ill keep you posted.

[garyde]

I went to my Country Coach 98 XL today to start to put some things on board for Santa Fe. I store my coach in a warehouse with no electricity. When I leave it I turn off both chassis switches, the domestic battery disconnect and both inverters inside the coach. This is what Country Coach told me what to do when I asked them this summer. I bought the coach used in May from Marathon in Florida. I am the second owner. When I went to fire up the coach ( I had not been there in about 30 days) the Prevost fired right up but my inverters would not turn on. I fired up the generator externally and the inside powered up....after 45 minutes my domestic batteries read 12 volt(initially it read 10 volt). I shut everything down and went to the battery bay. I have 6 large white batteries that are deep cell and do not need maintenance....but I saw that the first ground connection was corroded and needed cleaning so I cleaned that.

Here are my questions?

Did I shut all power off? I do not know why the house batteries were low.

If you run these expensive white batteries down, does it ruin them?

Could the corroded ground terminal been part of the problem?

Country Coach told me to charge the batteries...but it appears the only way I can do that is to take "THE BUSTER" on an eight hour trip...which means I will get a great charge heading to Santa Fe with the Calfornia group. What do I do when I store it in this warehouse?

BTW.....I am not really competent mechanically but usually get it if I see someone else do it or if I get walked through it.

All ideas will be greatly appreciated.

Mike Simmons
From past experience with different Rv,s ,I have learned even when you turn off everything, there is still things running. These are parasitic loads which are necessary to keep different sytems updated and ready when you turn the Coach and systems on. Depending on the amp draw of these Loads, you can calculate how long your batteries will last in hours or days before they fall below 12 volts. All 12 volt batteries should stay above 12 to 12.25 volts minimum. Corrosion on the Ground terminal may cause a loose connection which will result in battery discharge. When you get a chance, after you have run your coach for a while, check to see if the batteries are charging at 12.75 or higher and holding. Also, you can have a Mechanic load test your batteries to see if any are weak. I have read that the sealed batteries will recover better than Standard Batteries. Also, Country Coach had an article this year or last year regarding Battery Maintenance in their Magazine.

[merle&louise]

Gary,

I will post the website or phone # as soon as the unit arrives. I am ordering it from Newell Coach parts department so I don't have any other info on it. I read about it on newellcoach.com website under Tech Talk (search BATTERIES).

I googled "Pulse Tech" and got altenergystore.com They have a good explanation of how it works. It seems similar to what I have seen at Newell, but I am not sure if it is the same brand. It should arrive UPS before we leave for Santa Fe, if it does I'll bring it with me.:D

[truk4u]

Mike,
Your inverters will shut off at a pre-determined low voltage, it's usually called an LBCO (low battery cut-off) in the set up menu and is programable, depending on what inverter you have. When you fired the gen, it wouldn't allow the inverters back on line until an acceptable voltage was present. The other posts had good points, clean terminals, ground and battery health is the key. I would have each battery load tested after a full charge and you may find one or two sucking the life out of the others. You didn't say how old they were.

Not familiar with CC, but on my Marathon, there is large dual 24v cutoff for the house, a 12v house cutoff, a 12v generator cutoff and a large dual 24v cutoff for the inverters. When these are all in the off position, mine is dead as a door nail, with no current flow. I checked it with a meter when I changed the batteries. All of this is in addition to the chassis 12 & 24 cutoffs.

The house should last a long time if everything is off, just like the chassis batteries. ;)

[lewpopp]

Jon Boy

I am dry camping for a couple days and my inverters are reding overload from time to time. I have only normal draws such as hot water, tv, etc , so I am wondering why the overload light comes on for about 5-10 minutes. First it's one inverter then the other a half hour later.

Lew

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I can't help you Lew. I don't think we have the same inverters and I don't even know much about mine.

Tom???

[truk4u]

Louie,
If your trying to run hot water, 120 volt, the inverters won't handle the amperage while running all the other stuff you need. What all do you have on and what inverters do you have?

[timebum]

I think that a phone call to Lifeline battery might be a good idea before hooking any type of pulse power to AGM batteries. Seems to me that I read that AGM batteries do not need or want any type of "cleaning" charging.

[lewpopp]

Truk4

I really had the very least I could have had on when the overload light cam on. I realy have no control whether the hot water heater is on or not under normal conditions. All else, a TV, a small lite and the computer. Actually very little.

I have two 2500 Heart inverters only a couple years old.

Lew

[truk4u]

Lew,
If yours is like mine, I have 2 hotwater heaters that are power hogs. They pull about 17 amps each, but they will not operate while on inverter. Try pulling the breaker on the heaters and see if that helps. It sounds like a power management problem and you may have a lot more things running then you think. Mine are Trace 4000's and automatically kills the leg causing the overload and then has to be reset, forcing you to take some of the load offline.

I know when it's time to dry camp, I have to check on all the power needs, kill breakers, etc. to get the most out of the batteries. If it's cold where your at, the bay heaters could be on. I assume you have good batteries and the voltage is good.

Let us know how your making out...

[dalej]

Our coach has two chargers in the back running off the engine by belts. They both are in charge of the
house batteries. One a 24v and the other a 12v. The 12v is a Delco and has a LESTEK model 6116
regulator. The regulator is rusted where the terminals are (one was broke off) so I was going to take it
in and find a replacement.

Question...Is there a recommended 12v alternator with a built in regulator that work good for this
situation? If I can remember, using AGM batteries I need a14.2 charging supply. Or is there a setup
anyone can recommend? Or just have my Delco checked out and get another regulator.

Thanks for any help.

[MangoMike]

Dale,
I'm getting ready to replace my 12v alternator, 2nd one in 15 months. It has a built in regulator - so I'll try to get you a part number. Not cheap as I recall - about $375.

I'm using Gel Cell batteries.

Mike

[dalej]

Mango, what do you think is causing you to go through alternators? Is it picking up to much moisture in the back. That doesn't sound right that you need to have it replaced already.

[win42]

Mango: There is a plastic shield bolted to the front of my 12V alternator. I suspect it is there to prevent water splashes from below from drowning it out. Do you have one of those on yours. I lunched a 24V alternator on the POG trip, it's in the shop for repairs now. In replacing batteries the ground wire going to the Vanner got hooked up to the positive post. I suspect this caused the alternator to quit. An electrical wizard I'm not. I make it habit to take my rolls of red and green plastic tape and wrap the end of each wire POS or NEG with colors to prevent screw ups during BATT chg. That one wire was not so labeled and the fifty / fifty choice was wrong. Yeah Jon I know, trace each wire before hooking them up. I have to have it idiot proof when sparks are concerned.
When I replace the 24V alternator I'll fashion some sort of water splash shield for it also.

"Sparky"

[Jeff Bayley]

I had the standard type altnerators going bad on my 94 Prevost also. I think these are rated at around 125 amps. I think mine went bad because my house batteries were hurting and that made the alternator work itself into the ground. I have a 97 coach now and when the same (stock) type of 12v alternator went out on it, I replaced it with a 270 amp Leese Neville brand alternator. It cost $1,300 but I think it will last and I get two beneifts from this more robost sollution.

First, I hate running my generator just to charge the house batteries. I move around more than average in my bus instead of sitting in an RV park for days and days so in my case, this alternator helps keep my house batteries up even if I only drive for a half hour or so. On a longer driver, it gives a real good deep charge as you would expect.

Second, I took all that extra available power and used it to run two of my roof A/C's while driving. Another thing I hated doing was having to run the Gen in order to A/C the rear if someone was in there while driving. For people with bus air this isn't an issue but I will never buy another bus with bus air. A waste of two storage bays in my opinion. So anyway, what I did was modify my two fuse boxes in order to let me toggle between shore / gen power and inverter power. I put another post about this somewhere else in the last week. I can tell someone how to do this or post a photo or something if anyone let's me know there interested. Your running the A/C's right through the inverters with this mod, not directly off the 12v alternator. So the alternator is just keeping up with the draw I'm putting on my house batteries. I never tried it with the smaller altnernator but this big one works great. I've heard that the newer coaches let you run one roof A/C but I wired mine for two and it's fine.

So that's how I justified spending the dough on the better altnernator. By the way, the new one had the exact same mounting pattern ad the old one. Save your receipt. It has a 1 year full replacment warranty.

I'd like to learn more about using the 6 volt batteries to solve house battery issues. I have not been happy wiht my house battery performance with either brand new Lifelines or Acid batteries which I have now. I figured for the price difference, I can afford to throw the regular batteries away every year for new ones for 4 years and be at the same investment as the Lifelines with the exception that you have to water them (that is a pain with my set up).

Jeff

Jeff

[Joe Cannarozzi]

When motoring if we engage the 24 volt equalizer switch in charges the house 12 volt bank as well as the 24 volt house batteries.

Are 2 seperate alternaters prefferable?

[win42]

Answer to my previous posts problems.:

Jon:

Thanks for your input. OK I went through the sequence you described. Individual batteries disconnected and tested. All were fine. In surveying everything else I found the reset button hiddin under the Vanner had tripped. With the Vanner not sending power to the batteries during the trip, they continued to discharge with the engine and lights running. The generator or shore power to the 24v charger kept us going until the problem could be found. The Vanner reset has been reset.

Further checks using the PREVOST wiring diagram to compare, it was found two wires had been added to the batteries at the negative post, drawing 12V off. One wire was the 12 V feed to the control panel that transfered power forward to the headlights and the DDEC. The other wire for reasons unknown ran to the power side of the 12V disconnect switch sharing that position with the 12V wire from the Vanner. The Prevost wiring diagram indicated the later wire was not needed. The 12V wire feed to the DDEC and lights was then attached to the ON post of the 12V disconnect.

With no extra wires attached to the batteries, when the two disconnects are off there should be no discharging during storage. The 24V power is still connected to the positive battery post and to the ON post of the 24V disconnect.
With fingers crossed I think the problems are solved.

It proves once again when buying a used coach you have no idea how much the wiring has been cobbled up or changed from original before you got it.

Harry

[dalej]

Way to go Harry, I'm proud of you!;)

[MangoMike]

Answer to my previous posts problems.:

It proves once again when buying a used coach you have no idea how much the wiring has been cobbled up or changed from original before you got it.

Harry

Another reason to buy a new one - eh Harry?

Just shows that tenacity in fixing these buggers pays off. Good job.

MM

[win42]

No new ones Mango. The more I learn about how much stuff, that will eventially cause problems, they have been continually adding to the new one's. I'm getting happier by the day with my simple manually operated jump in and go coach. Since meeting you POGers It has sparked a desire in me to get my coach at least up to original specs. Fix things neglected for the last nine years of ownership and get out and enjoy it. It's really a nice coach with a pretty new paint job.
Start over with a new one? Maybe at your age it would make sense. You youngsters jump out there and enjoy the new stuff, I envy your ability to get into this hobby at a young age. Most of us couldn't do it until we slipped the harness off. But were doing it and enjoying it. Ooops' just slipped off the soap box.
Ole Harry

[MangoMike]

I'm getting happier by the day with my simple manually operated jump in and go coach. Since meeting you POGers It has sparked a desire in me to get my coach at least up to original specs. Fix things neglected for the last nine years of ownership and get out and enjoy it. It's really a nice coach with a pretty new paint job.

Ole Harry

Harry you're absolutely right, let those dogs like Sting have the new ones. Polish up beast, fix the leans and hit the road.

Mango

[Sting]

Harry you're absolutely right, let those dogs like Sting have the new ones. Polish up beast, fix the leans and hit the road.

Mango

Hey Mango...does that mean you are going to fix yours up?:D I know you really want a Millennium;) Doesnt MILLENNIUM MANGO have a nice sound to it??

[rfoster]

Harry, Your coach is sharp as can be, I really like your paint Job, and I too have not learned all there is to know about my old bus and I am about maxed out. A new one would cause overload in the brain compartment, not the fuse box. Just have to keep the wife away from the pics of those new slide coaches. :o

[MangoMike]

Hey Mango...does that mean you are going to fix yours up?:D

Stingly,
You bet. There's no way that the Whiskey Dent Award is going to wind it's way back to me at POG III.

Millennium Mike - nice ring to it. But I'm sure Truk4u will come back with Malfunction Mike.

[truk4u]

Mighty Mango Mike?;)

[merle&louise]

Gary,

Sorry it has taken me so long to get the PulseTech battery information on the forum.

PulseTech Products Corporation
PowerPulse Battery Maintenance System
1100 South Kimball Avenue
Southlake, TX 76092
817 329-609

http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/12-volt/PP12L.html

It is a simple concept; the circuit board sends a pulse into the battery which prevents sulphur from forming on the lead plates. It works with wet or gel cell batteries. I have heard that it prolongs battery life by 2 to 3 times.

I just installed 4 PowerPulse units on my MH. They cost about $70 each and they are very easy to install. I have 8 D8 AGM Lifeline batteries. If the product works it will pay for itself many times over, if not ???????