Country Coach OTR Air

[dale farley]

I have procrastanated on checking the filters on my two evaporators for my OTR air because I didn't know exactly what was involved in getting to them. Today, I looked at both units and realized it wasn't nearly as complicated as I thought it would be. There are no filters on the evaporators, but the fins were clean. Don't know how or why, and I could easily add a filter but don't think I will.

For those with a CC of my vintage, I have attached a couple pictures to show what is under the head of the bed (OTR Air and Webasto), and the second OTR unit that is under the kitchen cabinet. The bedroom required removing the headboard, mattress and plywood cover over the units. The kitchen required removing two doors and two screws in the bottom shelf.

[gmcbuffalo]

In the bedroom unit it looks like one heck of a good knick in the right black hose.
GregM

[dale farley]

Greg, There is a considerable kink, but I checked it and the air blows through with no problem. The two lines are more than sufficient for the air volume.

[Denny]

Dale,

I too have taken my cabinet and bed apart and found they were clean and no filters. There is a filter on the front drivers air. You have to take the panel off that is along the steps with the lighted handle/handrail attached. On mine the evaporator and filter were both in need of a good cleaning. Easy job to do.

[flyu2there]

While you guys are doing all of that don't forget to take a garden hose and wash off the condensor which is up above the front axle.....often missed but very important.

John

[dreamchasers]

Hey fellow Country Coach owners. Also, don't forget to check that both of the electric cooling fans are running on the condenser when you have the coach AC turned on (Under the coach, in front of the axle diff.).

I had one faulty fan that lead to long term (Failed on the previous owner) high temperatures for the compressor. The constant high temperatures 'warped' the AC compressor case and it was a 'leaker' (Case leaked). I ended up replacing the compressor and leak tested the lines. All is well in R-12 land.

Now that I have my coach air working great, my Prevost dash air leaked down last week. Humm... Story to be continued..... more pictures coming for sure.


Hector

[JIM KELLER]

What do you all think about using brake kleen on the condenser to remove road debris and tar ?

[Denny]

When I cleaned mine, I used Gunk Engine Cleaner. Aluminum came out bright and shiny.

[flyu2there]

Make certain if you use Gunk that you get the petroleum based stuff (has a flammable warning on the can) rather than the green bio friendly Gunk that has all the cleaning power of Ivory Snow.

Spray Kleen for brakes will work too but it also likes to remove paint, especially if you get to cunning in your spraying efforts......oh and keep all that stuff away from any undercoating (save the Green Gunk).....that can create a real mess........

[dale farley]

Do any of you other 99 CC owners have a diagram of the freon lines and components for the OTR Air? There is a slot in my accordian folder for the OTR Air, but the slot is currently empty. I want to flush my lines before I charge the system, and I need to know where the lines actually go.

[JIM KELLER]

Dale, I have looked for this information and do not have it. I wonder if I ever did have it because I don't see any thing about my OTR system !

[flyu2there]

Do any of you other 99 CC owners have a diagram of the freon lines and components for the OTR Air? There is a slot in my accordian folder for the OTR Air, but the slot is currently empty. I want to flush my lines before I charge the system, and I need to know where the lines actually go.

I will look, quite certain I have one but it will take me a few days, bus and I are thousand or so miles apart and the data is in the belly. I can scan the page and e mail it.......

Now you say flush the lines, do you mean flushing the system, removing all of the R-34 and starting over? If so, you are going to need about 12 pounds of 134 ($$$), some refregerant oil, a set of gauges, an a/c vacuum pump to draw down the system and remove all of the moisture and a freon recovery tank. All of that would be accomplished at the compressor in the engine compartment and really should best be left to a trained professional.

Should you be talking about just cleaning off the components, looks like you have uncovered all of the evaporators, the condensor is under the front of the bus.........nothing else there.

John

[dale farley]

Jim K.,

I'm not sure if I ever had anything either. I did find warranty papers, etc., but no diagrams. I called the manufacturer of the system, and a technician said they had the wiring diagrams if we need them.

John,

If you find a diagram of the freon travel, I would appreciate a copy. Probably the other 1999 CC owners would also. I have all the tools and supplies (including A/C Flush) you mentioned except for the recovery system. I had to break down and go by another set of gages, since my R12 set was over 30 years old. An A/C friend that goes to our church has the recovery system. I noticed that the 134 has increased in price from $27 a case (12) to over $40 at Sams. So much for deflation!

I have replaced the compressor, dryer, both expansion valves, and O rings. The expansion valve in the kitchen was clogged with something, so I am flushing all the lines from the evaporators to the compressor/dryer. The clogged expansion valve was probably the only failed component, but I couldn't see disassembling the system without changing all the parts, since it is 10 years old. The clog did not appear to be compressor or dryer debris. Fortunately, I didn't have any noticeable leaks, but knowing my luck, I'll put it all back together and spring a leak in the evaporator or condenser.

Disclaimer: I don't pretend to be an A/C expert. I always ask for guidance from A/C people and supply houses every time I tackle a job of this magnitude. When I was much younger, I would have stayed up all night and tried to get everything back together and hoped it worked. I am significantly more cautious and patient at this point in my life.

[dreamchasers]

Dale,

My system was made by Frigi-Cool/SES. Frigi-Cool was apparently sold to SES. Is that the manfacturer of the system installed in a '99.

Hector

[dale farley]

Hector,

Mine is made by SCS (Specific Climate Systems) in Ft. Worth, TX. They seem to be a very large corporation.

[Denny]

Dale,
I was looking through my schematics and I have one for my 40. I would be glad to send you a copy or show it to you at the Tom Johnson Rally. I understand your frustration and wanting to do things yourself. I have had mine at two different AC places and it still is not working properly.

I think I am going to be my own AC expert. Hector has concurred his system so he is a great resource for help along with several others on POG.

[dale farley]

Denny,

I blew air through the lines to identify where they connected on the opposite end before I flushed them, so that part went okay. I got the lines flushed and reconnected everything today. I pulled a vacuum on the system, and that looks good, so I plan to charge it tomorrow.

I would definitely like to get a copy of the diagram when I see you in N.C. I would think it would be "almost" identical to mine. Thanks.

[Denny]

Dale,
What did you use to flush the lines? And did you flush the condenser?

[dale farley]

Dennny,

I did not flush the condenser. I bought a quart of A/C Flush from my local shop ($10). They told me to just flush the lines from the one expansion valve back to the dryer. Since part of the line is the same for both evaporators, I flushed the entire line for both. As instructed by the A/C shop, I injected the fluid and blew it through the line with air. I disconnected the line from the dryer and extended it with a piece of hose so I could let the line drain in a bucket at the back of the bus. It worked surprisingly well.

Because I had the line off the expansion valve in the bedroom also, I wrapped that line with a large towel to catch the fluid that went that direction. By shutting off the rear A/C control, I was able to control where the fluid went. I injected and blew the fluid until the lines were clear.

The only thing I would do differently about the flushing is that I would purchase a squeeze bottle with a small nozzle for injecting the fluid in the lines. I used a clean dish detergent bottle but had to be very careful not to spill the fluid while trying to squeeze it in the line.

[merle&louise]

Hector,

Mine is made by SCS (Specific Climate Systems) in Ft. Worth, TX. They seem to be a very large corporation.

I have SCS air conditioner units in my coach. I love them; 11 years old and going strong.

[truk4u]

Dale,

If the dryer was exposed to air for sometime by unhooking the line, shouldn't the dryer be replaced? My understanding is they are very susceptible to ambient air moisture. The desiccant absorbs the moisture and will quickly become non functional.

You're more familiar with this A/C stuff than I am, so still learning...

[flyu2there]

Dale,

I didn't see it mentioned but remember, do not forget to replace the dryer.
Let us know how it all works out...


John

[dale farley]

Tom/John,

In post #13, I mentioned the dryer replacement. I have taken the line loose since then, but I covered any connections with plastic and duct take to minimize any moisture in the system.

When I was flushing the lines, I removed the high pressure line from the dryer and noticed that it spit oil out. I called the A/C Supply House and thy said that was normal.

You do have me wondering now if I should replace the dryer again, but I doubt that any shop would under the same circumstances? Of course, as Denny mentioned, many shops don't do it right either. I may ponder this a while before I try recharging the system today.

[dale farley]

I decided that since I had taken the lines off the new drier a couple times, I would replace the drier the second time just to be sure before I charged the system.

After changing the drier again, vacuuming the system for an hour and charging with almost 11 cans of freon, the air was 36-38 degrees coming directly out the duct on top of the evaporator. I sprayed all fittings with A/C leak detector and didn't find leaks, so hopefully, everything is okay. I am going to give it a couple days to make sure everything is all right before I close up the kitchen cabinet and the bed frame.

After purchasing the new compressor, 2 different driers, 2 expansion valves, O rings, freon, and flushing fluid, I have ended up with $888 in the entire job. If I include the new vacuum pump, A/C gages and a set of offset wrenches, I would have another $136 invested, making the total $1024. Of course , I hope the pump, gages and wrenches will last me for the rest of my life.

[rfoster]

Congrats Dale,

if you have cold air in NC and the o/s air Temp is about 65 degrees, you will be designated as the unofficial POG CC AC XPert. I am certainly glad you are on board. I am sure that was a big job and well done.

[dale farley]

Thanks Roger, I hope it will be worth it. I have never even tried to use it while on the road. Our dash air is very cold, and has always supplied plenty of cold air while traveling. I just didn't like the idea of the OTR not working properly.

[Denny]

Dale,
An air conditioning seminar in NC would be greatly appreciated! Please sign me up.

[mcirco]

Hey Dale,

Count me in on that seminar too.

Miles Circo

[michaeldterry]

Dale,
An air conditioning seminar in NC would be greatly appreciated! Please sign me up.

Vita and I need to attend this seminar, too!

[Kenneth Brewer]

Me too.
Thanks.

[flyu2there]

Thanks Roger, I hope it will be worth it. I have never even tried to use it while on the road. Our dash air is very cold, and has always supplied plenty of cold air while traveling. I just didn't like the idea of the OTR not working properly.

Dale,

Just one question, if you never used it, how did you know that it was broke? The CC OTR air is about as strong as what you will find in a 1954 Nash Ambassador Wagon, most certainly is not Prevost OTR air. BTW I have the schematics requested, I will send it to you via PM if you send me your e mail address.

[dale farley]

John,

I had run it a few times sitting in the garage when I was periodically testing everything. It cooled the first time I ran it, but I suppose it went down hill the more the screen filter in the expansion valve became clogged. I was going to clean the air filters at some point and noticed it was not cooling very much at all. The non-use may have added to its demise. I would appreciate any schematics or diagrams you have of the system. My email address is farley@frontiernet.net. Thanks. Dale

[dale farley]

I will be glad to share what little I know about the OTR system. Anyone who wants to work on the system will definitely need a set of the offset wrenches in the attached picture. I took the lines off my compressor and drier without them, but it was much easier putting things back together after getting the wrenches. You can get the wrenches on sale at Harbor Freight for less than $20, and they seem to be of sufficient quality for what I will be using them for. they cover sizes from about 1/4" to 1 1/4". You will need the larger sizes for the compressor nuts.

I also attached a picture of the leak detector I have been using for a couple years. It can be purchased at refrigeration/A/C supply houses, and it works very well. I also use the cheap bubble stuff, but the advantage to this is that it is thick and will bubble even if the leak is very small or occurs several minutes after applying the fluid. I suppose that what gives it the Micro leak Technology. The top words on the bottle say "Refrigeration Technology", but it works equally well for air leaks.

[truk4u]

Dale,

I'm repeating myself from a previous post, but don't run your fans on low! I learned that lesson while at Parliament. Since there is no temperature adjustment or blend on the CC OTR, it's either on or off, if you run the fans on low they will freeze up and cause a shut-down. Run them on medium or high.

[dale farley]

Tom, I am sure they would freeze up rather quickly. At one point yesterday, I noticed the temperature on the front of my evaporators was as low as 27 degrees. It couldn't take long to shut down the system if the air flow is too low. I assume the sole purpose of the termostat on the front of each of the evaporators is to shut the system down when it gets too cold.

[phorner]

The Big Blue leak detection solution is apparently used in hospitals to detect leakage in oxygen supply systems and is capable of detecting micro gas leakage down to 0.65 ounces per year.

Sounds like pretty good stuff that I need to add to my list of "tools".

Thanks for the info, Dale.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

When we bought our bus the OTR a/c was inop. The system was void of all freon and to make matters worse, unknown how long it was compromised and I'm guessin probably a long time.

I was unaware of this flush Dale had done and the shop doing the work was either unaware of it or did not suggest it.

Both expansion valves were replaced but the screen in the one in the dash plugged up again with rust and crap and had to be opened up again and re-replaced very soon thereafter.

Seems to me any system that has had any moisture present for any prolonged period of time should have this done.

I still am unhappy with the performance of the dash loop. I do not know what the deferential in temp from inlet to outlet should be but as soon as things warm up I am going to check.

I wonder what it would cost to have a OTR system flushed. I am sure there is still crap in ours

[dale farley]

Joe, I had always thought the A/C shop had some special pump that they connected to the lines and flushed everything at once, and maybe some do. The shop I was talking to is one of the most respected in Pensacola, and he told me they inject flush in the line and blow it out. He said every shop he knows does it that way. I got the impression they don't flush unless it is really necessary because the flush may break things loose that would have otherwise been okay.

I think if I were you, I would flush the line that keeps clogging your expansion valve. It probably goes directly to the high pressure side of the drier (the "Out" side). The A/C flush is about $10 a quart. All you need is the flush, a bottle with a small nozzle and your air compressor. I'm saying all this based on what I was told and what I have done at this time. Mine may stop up again in a month or six months, but I feel confident that the line was clean after the flush. The attached picture is what I used.

[Denny]

Dale,

I have a Seltec 488-46520 compressor on mine. What was on yours and where did you get the replacement?

As Hector suggested, I checked my fans and only one was operating. With the amount of dirt on the non operating one it has been that way for a long time. Any suggestions on where I can get fans and are they the same as a radiator fan? I saw radiator fans in a parts store today and the clerk said that they would work. Don't know whether that is true or not.

Also, my condenser fins are bent on the bottom 1 to 2 inches of the condenser about half the distance across the bottom. Where can I get a new condenser?

I'm thinking about rebuilding the whole system.

[dale farley]

Denny, My original compressor was also a Seltec (Tama). When talking to the A/C shop last week, he said a TM31 compressor is pretty much the same regardless what name is on it.

I purchased my compressor from Worldaire A/C Factory Direct in Mansfield, TX. They seem to specialize in compressors only. No driers, etc. The compressor is the one used by Red Dot trucking.

I bought mine at the best price I could find after searching the internet for a couple hours. Mine cost me $690 plus shipping (total $728). I think they prefer payment through Pay Pal. I talked with Dave Schenck. His email is dave@worldaire.com, and his fax # is 866-355-0180. He is easier to reach via email than phone. They may sell condensers; I didn't ask.

If the radiator fan is the same size, same rpm, and will mount the same, I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

Since I haven't replaced condenser or fan, I don't know of a source for them. If your condenser is not destroyed, you can get a fin straightener and run it through the fins and restore their shape. If I were going to replace a condenser, I think I would get the original part # and try to find a new one with that same number or suitable after market replacement.

[Denny]

Thanks Dale, you gave me several things to look at. After we get back from the Tom Johnson Rally, I am going to take the condenser off and see if I can find any identification on it. The plastic shroud around the fans is broke in several places so I may have to fabricate a new one out of metal.. I will check the fans also and get the specs on them and find two replacements.

[dreamchasers]

Denny,

The serial number data tag for my unit was located on the plastic housing for the condenser. A Frigi-cool sticker was affixed on the top of the housing. I had to remove it to see the tag.

I agree with Dale, if possible salvage the condensing unit. I purchased the electric fans from a company in Arlington, Texas. I will get the contact info to you.

I have found that my dash air alone is 'wimpy'. However, it works well when the OTR air is functioning properly.

I have not checked the temperature differential of the OTR air or dash air. I will forward that data when obtained.



Hector

[dale farley]

Hector, Your dash air may not be working to full capacity or maybe it is a different configuration than mine. As I stated in an early post, the dash air is all we have ever used while traveling, and it has always been very sufficient for us. I don't do a lot of long distance travel in the middle of the summer, but we've made several short trips with no problems.

At the same time, I am not saying dash air is all you need when it's really hot. Paulette and I are usually both sitting at the front of the bus when we travel, so I don't worry much about the other parts until I get ready to stop. Maybe you need a little charge in yours to get it to full capacity.

[dale farley]

Has anyone purchased a replacement condenser fan. While under the bus changing the oil and lubricating the chassis today, I turned on the OTR air again. I noticed that one of the fans is running slower than the other, so I need to replace it.

[truk4u]

Dale,

Hector just posted recently about replacing his fans..

[dale farley]

Tom, I thought I had read that someone recently replaced a fan, but I scanned this thread, and decided it wasn't here. I see now that it was.

Hector, Where did you buy your fan.? I am not sure it is exactly the same as mine, but it probably is. The picture shows what mine look like. I tried to read the part #on mine today, but could not see it.

[dreamchasers]

Thanks Tom for the reminder.

Dale and Denny,

I attempted to purchase replacement fans first from Country Coach (No Luck), second from Frigi-Cool/SES (They had remaining stock from their purchase of Frigi-Cool, but no replacement fans.), and third from Tripac International (A manufacturer of automotive electric fans located in Fort Worth, Texas.)

I purchased 2 ea.

p/n-14-4911B1, Fan ASM, 11" 90W Pusher

I purchased them in November 2007 @$41.00 ea.

Tripac International Inc.
9224 Oak Grove Road
Fort Worth, Texas 76140
phone-817-534-9278, Fax-817-534-7597

I had to trim the fan mounting slightly for the fans to 'snap' into the plastic shroud. The fans works great and has improved the performance of my OTR air. My coach being a 1995, replacing both fans made good sense. I did pull the condenser assembly from under the coach for replacement. I think it can be done in place, but will take additional careful 'back time' under the coach. The condenser will need to be 'hung' so the plastic shroud can be removed to expose the fans. These fans are controlled by relays located in the Electronic Control Cabinet.

http://www.tripacintl.com/idxhome.html

I see this company as a supplier of condensers and evaporators also.

Good Luck!

Hector

[dale farley]

Hector, Thanks for the info. They must have updated the part #; I couldn't find it on the website.

[dreamchasers]

Dale,

I do not beleive all the fans are on their web site. Perhaps a phone call to the tech reps. You can refer to invoice #0049182. As I recall, each fan is custom built per order.

Your picture reminded me of how little room is available under the coach when the condensers are mounted. When I removed the condenser assembly to reburbish the fans, I also rebuilt the air dryer, replaced the ball check valves in the primary air tank (and secondary air tank in the front of the bus) and leaked checked the pneumatic system in the rear of the coach.

Good Luck!

Hector

[dale farley]

Hector, I will give them a call. I am really hoping that I can remove this fan without removing the condenser, since I just replaced almost everything in my OTR system and recharged it.

[dale farley]

I got around to tackling the removal of my fans on the OTR condenser unit today. I decided that I would remove the condenser so I could check and clean everything on it. Of course, this now means I will have to vacuum and recharge my system again.

I did decide that the fan cowling can be removed without removing the condenser unit itself, so if anyone needs to do that, they should be abe to do so. Once the main screws holding the cowling to the frame are removed, you then will have to remove 4 screws on each side of the cowling that holds the condenser in the cowling.

I have calls to Tripac and to SCS trying to purchase the fans. I am going to replace both although only one is bad. Also have to get a fin straightener and work on the bent fins. Hopefully, I will get the fans ordered tomorrow.

[Denny]

Dale,
Please let me known how you make out on the fans. I'm planning on getting under mine tomorrow and see if I can get any numbers off of them. My fan shroud has several cracks so I would like to replace it also. I too need a fin comb to straighten out the fins. I will remove everything to work on it as you have done.
I believe Hector did the same thing.

[dreamchasers]

Roadrunner,

Your picture sure looks familiar!. After my OTR rebuild, the system has worked great. I pressure checked my at 250 psi (nitrogen) for five days, no leaks, before I recharded it.

I have received a comment that these two fans worked from a thermostat (temperature) controller. Mine does not use temperature control to start fans and they are controlled by the OTR board in the CCC cabinet, using 2 interposing relays from one output from the board. When the compressor in on, both fans are running.

I had great results with my AC rebuild and I am sure you will too.

Each time I get under my bus or see others getting under, I recall a past POG member that had an accident that resulted in death while getting under his bus.

I am soo thankful for Jon making the very robust bus stands for POG members. They are easy to use and I carry them with me in the bus at all times and will not get under the bus without using them. They are the best items I have have purchased for the coach. Thanks again JON!

I know you have a pit, but I live in southeast Texas. If you dig a hole three feet deep here, the next morning it is filled with water. Plus, I live on the shores of Lake Livingston, so no pit for me.

Denny,

Concerning the cracked plastic shroud for the OTR air. I had a few small cracks in mine. I think where the condenser is located, it if subject to being hit by anything that the coach runs over. I used 'super glue' with plastic strips to reinforce the cracked areas. The super glue melts into the plastic and make a good repair. Good luck!


I am currently upgrading all the hoses on my dash AC. Prevost issued a service bulletin concerning these hoses the year model after my coach. I have been plagued with small freon leaks (associated with hose end connections in the rear of the coach.) and this should take care of it. I look forward to having a 'cold' dash air. I will post on the results.



Hector




Hector

[dale farley]

Hector,
I live in Florida where there is water everywhere. My house is on a hill (a Florida hill), and is probably 50' higher than the lower part of the property. The only time I get water in the pit is right before I need to use it. We had 20+ inches of rain about a month ago, and I had 31 inches of water rise in the pit. It is seeping through 8 inches of concrete.

Yesterday, I pumped it out and vacuumed it dry before I got in, but by the end of the day, there was about 4"-6" of water in it. Normally, this time of the year it is perfectly dry, but the ground is still saturated from the floods we recently had. I wear boots on days like this.

I understand that auto stores sell a plastic radiator repair kit that should be ideal for repairing the shroud. Denny may want to check into this.

[dale farley]

I just ordered my fans from ttp://www.racerpartswholesale.com/category/s (http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/category/s) . I tried Tripac, but they said they are not stocking any fans. They build as they are ordered, with a 2-week lead time. Also tried SCS, and they order theirs from Tripac.

Racer Parts Wholesale had them for $44.99 each plus $8.85 shipping for a total of $98.85. Will ship today. The part # is 4111B1.

[Denny]

I removed the fans and a/c condenser today and it is worse than I thought. The bottom of the condenser is bowed back about 1 1/2 inches and when i removed the fans, I could see where one of the fans hit the back of the condenser. I bought a fin comb from Snapon but the damage was too great. I ordered a new condenser from SCS, they still stock them - $311.

Since I have to replace condenser and fans, I am also going to replace the compressor. The oil level was low and with only one fan working I am concerned that the compressor was also damaged as with Hector's system

Dale, thanks for the info on your fans; I now know where to order them from.

Now I have to repair the shroud with Crazy Glue and I'm going to reinforce the large, flat areas by riveting and gluing aluminum strips to it for added strength

[dale farley]

Denny, I'm glad you found the condenser for $300. I'm surprised it was't more. I spent over 3 hours today straightening the fins on mine. Hope everything goes smooth for you and this job.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Dale, your racer parts wholesale seems to have a lot of good stuff that a guy might need from time to time. Thanks for posting it.

JIM

[dalej]

Now I have to repair the shroud with Crazy Glue and I'm going to reinforce the large, flat areas by riveting and gluing aluminum strips to it for added strength


Denny,

I sure hope this kind of repair will be acceptable. POG has high standards and we will want to approve it in OKC. :)

[Denny]

Dale,

Thanks for the concern! I have changed my plans on the aluminum. Since weight is not of much concern on my bus, I am going to use high polished stainless for reinforcement. I don't polish the slack adjusters so this will add some bling to the underside.

[dale farley]

Jim, Racer Parts Wholesaler does have a good selection of things, and they were very friendly, no-nonsense, and shipped the same day with reasonable shipping prices.

[dale farley]

I finished the installation of my condenser fans yesterday and recharged the system today. The fans I ordered from Racer Parts was an exact match for the ones I removed.

I monitored the pressure on my gages as I was charging the system. The ambient temperature was 85. When the system was a about 1/2 charged, the high pressure was 190, and when full, the pressure was 225. The low pressure was between 15 and 20 when fully chaged. That seems low, but the air temperature coming out of the register was about 38 degrees according to my analog vent thermometer. The digital thermometer read about 24 degrees.

A word of caution when installing the condenser in the fan cowling. Be careful that you don't overtighten the four screws on each side. They will strip very easy. You're better off to use a 1/4" ratchet and just snug the screws.