The Spitting Game

[jimshoen]

How many coaches did Prevost build with the dual fuel fills before they put the modification 'ball check valves' in the tank to stop the fuel spitting?
Mine is a July 1996 build by Prevost.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

1996 shell, T5811. It spits.

[dale farley]

I was wondering about this myself. I don't think mine has ever spit, but I don' know if it has a modification to prevent it.

[phorner]

I'll be happy to let Prevost top off my tank to experience for themselves just how pleasant it is to carry a 1/2 gallon of diesel fuel in your shoes :eek:

[Kevin Erion]

2000 XLII shell, spits!

[jimshoen]

Dale,
Does your coach have dual fuel fill? Left and right side?

[Toy Box]

1999 xlv shell. Spits, sloshes, spits. Two fills

[jelmore]

99xlv, two fills, hasn't spit since the first time I filled it two years ago, the day we bought it. Never filled it completely since.

[Coloradobus]

Our 1999 shell, 2001 CC 2 slide spit and sprayed, then Prevost put the wire basket and plastic floaty balls in. (dropped tank on their nickel) No spit!:)

2nd bus, 2001 shell, 2002 XLII single slide spit!!!!
3rd and current bus, 1999 H3-45 shell, 2000 Marathon H Spits too, unless you keep a watchful eye.:D

[Coloradobus]

JON,

I know the genset and webasto use fuel that is not computed on the Info Screen. I use the DDEC info as an estimate of how we need. The genset and webasto seem to use about 12-15 per tank full.

[garyde]

This Company was posted before; http://www.truckprotect.com/instantfit.htm This device prevents fuel theft and pucking.

My 2003 does not have the pucking issue. I have port and starboard fill caps.
I do not have the truck protects.

[dale farley]

Jim, My bus does have dual fill tubes, but I don't recall it spitting at me. Many times I use the RV isles, but several times I have used the truck nozzles.

I use the RV pumps because I get a 5% discount on my AAA Visa card when I pay at the pump. I don't get that discount when I fill up at the truck isle and have to pay inside. At just $2 a gallon, that is a 10 cent discount on each gallon.

[jimshoen]

Has anyone used the Truck Protect device?

[phorner]

Good question, Jim. Looks like the Truck Protect device just might be a reasonably priced solution the the spitting problem..... if it does indeed work as well as advertised.

Probably wouldn't take too long to pay for itself considering the value of the wasted fuel, not to mention the value of ruined clothes and wasted time.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Hey guys I have been talking with Chris Helm the US Regional Sales rep. for Truck Protect for about 6 months now. I actually spoke with him last week, again to see where they are for us on this product, but he says they are still investigating.

(615) 866-7984 chris.helm@truckprotect.com

Currently they DO NOT have a unit that will fit our bus necks. Something about the shape of the neck, and the actual size we need.

He is working feverishly with the UK to get the proper unit made for our use, but as of yet nothing.

Why doesn't everybody send him an email, tell him your with POG and we want (2) for each of our buss's. Tell him I told you to email him.

Maybe he will get somewhere wtih his boss, if we all tell him we like the idea and want them?

Gary S.

[jimshoen]

Gary,
Left message on Chris' cell phone and sent e-mail.

[Darl-Wilson]

I just sent the following to Chris;



I am a member of the Prevost Owners Group looking for a device to fit my bus. I was given your address by POG member Gary Stevens. My coach is a 1997 45' XLV and has a 1996 shell. Please let me know when you have the anti-siphon, non-spitting filler available for sale. Others in our group along with the FMCA Prevost Proud group would like to have these.

Thanks,

Darl

Does anyone think Prevost Proud members would want these? Sounded good anyway! :)

Darl

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Thanks guys for following up with Chris @ TruckProtect about the neck filler anti-syphon, anti-burb back product they have. ( Just doesn't fit our bus yet ):(

Chris sent me an email tonight, that he had recieved two other emails from interested POGgers about his product.

I hope they will start the design process of this product for our use now?

Lets hope, and if and when I hear anything more from Chris, this board will be the second to know. :)

Gary S.

[Darl-Wilson]

Here is what I received from Chris.

Dear Darl, thank you very much for your email and interest in our anti-siphons. As soon as we have a version for the Prevost fuel tanks we will be in immediate contact.

Best regards,

Chris


Looks like they are right on it!

Darl

[Petervs]

Rarely have I seen or heard so many smart men whine and moan about such a silly situation. I mean really, all you are trying to do is add liquid to a container. Can you guys make yourselves a drink without making a mess? Let's practice. Go get a beer and a glass. Open bottle or can. Pour into glass. If you do not spill any you may drink it while you read the rest of this.

Let's consider the situation from the beginning. The bus has either one 208 gallon tank or a smaller main tank with an auxiliary 90 gallon tank. If you have the aux tank, there is a large hose at the bottom to equalize the liquid level in both tanks and a smaller hose connecting the top of both tanks which acts as a vent line. See the link for a schematic . They call the vent line the "vent hole".
http://prevostparts.volvo.com/technicalpublications/pdf/pa1082-03.pdf

The main tank has a filler neck and a vent line on one side or both sides. If you have it on both sides, this does not mean you should use 2 pumps to fill your tank at the same time when you stop at the Flying J or wherever. They gave you two fillers so you could stop on either side of a fuel island.

Next to each filler neck is another vent line, the schematic calls this one an overflow tube.

If you stop at a car or RV pump, you will find that the flow rate of the diesel is around 3-5 gallons per minute. That means about a half a cubic foot of air has to leave the tank every minute as you are pouring fuel in. The air escapes around the fuel nozzle and through the vent line near the nozzle.

If you stop at the truck island, the flow rate will be 30-40 gallons per minute, which means that 5 cubic feet of air must exit the tank each minute. That little vent line is not really big enough to handle that. So some air exits the tank around the fuel fill nozzle. Plus, the fuel is going in so fast it is like a little waterfall in there, so it is frothing and sloshing all around. If you have the aux tank some of the fuel has to travel through the connecting hose to fill that one up, and while that is happening, air from the aux tank is being piped to the top of the main tank too.

If you try to fill on both sides at once, you will add even more escaping air to the problem.

Here is the solution to the problem.
1. Check your vent hoses, one at each filler neck and one between the two tanks if you have an aux tank. Be sure there are no kinks or dirt blocking the free flow of air.
2. Pump from one side only. At 40 GPM if you buy 180 gallons that is less than 5 minutes. You need that long to clean the windshields and check the tow car and tires anyway.
3. Based on your ProDriver you will have a fair idea how much fuel you will probably take. When you get to 85% of that, adjust the fuel nozzle latch to one click less flow rate. Be sure the nozzle is all the way into the filler neck.

I too had a gusher one day when I tried to use both nozzles at once. But I learned from my experience. I timed the pumps to see how fast the fuel was flowing. I use the steps outlined above and have never had a spill since.

I hope you enjoyed the beer!

[jimshoen]

Peter,
Glad you chimed in on this issue. I do not use both fills at the same time. I've filled from both the left and right side and have the same problem with each side. Also, I have set the flow rate at the lowest setting (less than 15 gallons per minute) with the same result. Have used the exact technique as you describe with the same result. Only one time has it not splashed back.
My coach does not have the aux tank.
How do I check the vent hoses at each fill neck?
Why does Prevost recommend the 'Ball Check Valve Kit'?

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Just to add a little bit to this mess, the Truck-Protect filler neck item that I mentioned in an earlier post, is NOT, just to help keep the spillage to a minimum, its main pupose is ANTI-SIPHON.

Just ask Fast Roger, if he wouldn't buy two of these in a heart beat when they come on the market?????

And yes I have a bad habit of spilling my cocktails at times, don't know why?

Gary S.

[truk4u]

Peter,

The beer was great! It doesn't matter, slow speed, 1st click on the RV pump, only filling one side, it's going to puke 9 out of 10 times on the 45's.:(

[Petervs]

Mine is a 45, it never pukes, even if I leave the pump on full blast right up until it clicks off by itself. As long as i only use one side.

There must be blockage in your vent line.

[jimshoen]

Peter,
Is there any possibility that your coach had the 'Fuel Tank Ball Check Valve Kit' installed?
How do I check the vent line?
Jim

[Ray Davis]

Just to chime in. Now that I have a 45er, mine pukes as well, even on the lowest setting in the truck isle. I never had this issue on the 40 foot coaches.

Would it help to open the other side (I only fill on one side), while filling?

It's hard to believe that so many of us have clogged vent lines? Now with this coach, I look at the ProDriver, try to get a good estimate, and back off around 20 gallons early. I listen carefully, and go real slow from that point, and I am generally ok. But, for sure, I cannot simply leave it alone, at any speed.

Ray

[hhoppe]

Ray: My friend opened both caps and filled from one side on his Monoco. The trucker on the oposite side hollered " how much fuel are you going to dump on the ground before you shut the pump off." I fuel at a reduced rate on the truck pump and chg. to the lowest position near the end. It will still puke a small dribble before it's complete. I stay prepared for it. Let our wives give them the cash first and I'll guarantee your tank will not run over.

[jimshoen]

Ray, I have tried leaving the cap off on the oposite side to vent with no success. Pukes anyway.
I am glad Peter's coach does not splash back. My question is, what is different about the fuel system on Peter's coach?
Harry, How does having the wife pay prevent splash back?

[merle&louise]

It seems to me that the reason for the puking is that the filler tube is too long. If the neck of the filler tube was very short, say 3" and on a 45 degree angle to the top of the tank the nozzle tip would sit deeper in the tank, thus shuting off the flow of fuel when the fuel hits the tip of the nozzle. Also, a 3" wide filler tube would help. The wider filler tube would allow the air to escape as you are fueling and eliminate the need for a vent tube.

Does this make any sense?

[Sid Tuls]

I fuel mine on the high level and don't have any problem/when it turns off I still can put about 5 more gallons.

[Kenneth Brewer]

It seems to me that the reason for the puking is that the filler tube is too long. If the neck of the filler tube was very short, say 3" and on a 45 degree angle to the top of the tank the nozzle tip would sit deeper in the tank, thus shuting off the flow of fuel when the fuel hits the tip of the nozzle. Also, a 3" wide filler tube would help. The wider filler tube would allow the air to escape as you are fueling and eliminate the need for a vent tube.

Does this make any sense?

Yes, it does.

[phorner]

I received this response from Chris Helms at Truck Protect...


From: Chris Helm <chris.helm@truckprotect.com

To: Paul Horner <p.l.horner@att.net>
Subject: RE: Prevost Bus
Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009 3:12:57 PM [View Source]




Thank you Paul for your email and interest in a version of our anti-siphon for your bus. We are certainly looking at how quickly we can have a version for you. As we have not had problems with splashback from our trucking customers, we certainly believe you should not have a problem either.



Best regards,


Chris



Chris Helm

Senior VP Sales and Marketing

TruckProtect North America LLC

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Upon returning from Oysterfest I filled the bus.

The truck stop is one I rarely use, but last night they were 6 cents cheaper than the other one more commonly used. It also happens to be the only one I have ever been to that has a unique set up on one lane.

One side (at the pump) has a car sized nozzle. The other side on the passenger side has a truck sized nozzle. I stuck both nozzles in and went to full flow. I estimated 140 gallons so at 100 gallons I turned off the big nozzle and left the little one flow, but at its lowest setting. I could have replaced both windshields instead of washing bugs off because it took so long but I got 145 gallons in the coach and never spilled a drop. I don't know the rate of flow from the small nozzle, but it was so slow you would need a calandar to time it.

So I know I can follow Peter's advice and just not really fill the tanks, or I can use the sissy hose at low speed. The next time I use the big boy hose at a truck stop I am going to try the tipped coach method and a single hose at the lowest setting.

[jimshoen]

Finished installing the Prevost Fuel Tank Ball Check Valve Modification. To say that the installation is a royal pain in the ___ would be an understatement. No more spitting as long as you only fill from one side at the critical moment. Ran the filling tests using the truck stop pumps. Works good and I am happy with the result. Also found the old fuel tank vent leaking diesel fuel on the top of the tank when full.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Hey Jim S. will you be installing these at OKC for those of us that pre-pay for them? :)

I would like to have these on both sides of my bus too.

Did you have to drop the fuel tanks to put them in? What was the biggest problem you encountered?

Gary S.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have found the solution to puking........I think.

After Sun N Fun I went back to the trucks stop with the two different size nozzles and waited in line There were open pumps but I wanted this aisle because it has the small nozzle on one side.

This time I left the small nozzle on the highest setting. When it got close to full I stood next to it, just outside the splash zone, and waited. It clicked off when full and not a drop came out. Now all I have to do is figure out how much flow is coming from that small nozzle relative to the large nozzles. My rough calculation was about 3.5 GPM on the small one.

I will be filling up at this truck stop again in a few weeks after we return from NY state. I intend to see if I can measure the flow on the big boy truck nozzle on the passenger side compared to the baby nozzle on the driver side. Then I will try the big boy nozzle at the lowest setting which I suspect is greater flow than the baby nozzle at its fastest setting. I am convinced that this is a flow rate problem, and I am not prepared to go through what Jim has just gone through.

[dalej]

Guys,

In Jim's second photo, what is the thing right in the middle. I have one, took it out to put in a second filler, but for the life of me can't figure out what it is or does.

[truk4u]

Jon Boy your peeing in the wind! You just got lucky on one fill up. I always used the small nozzle at Flying J by using the rv island, so I didn't have to stand in fuel on the truck side and my CC would always puke unless I used the flashlight trick. Buy a 40 without OTR and you'll be good to go!:rolleyes:

Jim - Nice job!

[rfoster]

You guys know that if you disconnect the framulator from the OTR Comp that you won''t get that puke effect anymore. You will also be comfy. CC rules.

[dalej]

While I had the cover off the fuel tank, I noticed the tight curve elbow on the filler tube. I would be willing to bet that this is the reason the fuel coming in starts build a dam and comes back out the filler. The red line show the tight radius elbow that was used.

The blue arrow show the item that I'm not sure of what it is. Anybody have any thoughts?

[jimshoen]

Hi Gary,
The fuel tank did not need to be dropped on my coach. This coach uses a single 208 gallon plastic fuel tank. As can be seen in Dales' photo, his fuel tank in metal. There is a differrence.
The biggest issue installing the new check valves is that the instruction sheet provided by Prevost does not provide enough details to complete the job. I spoke with Mike Frizzel, Prevost Service Nashville, three times while I was completing the job. Without his help I would not have gotten this done.
Also, I found the Convertor installed equipment, inverters, bay carpeting, and Entertainment Center to increase the work required by about twice. Two small and necessary parts were missing from the kit when I received it. I could go on and on. If anyone is really going to do this, feel free to call me and Mike Frizzell. There are a few little tricks that will make the install go smoother.

[jimshoen]

Dale,
I had the same question regarding that piece.
I took a real good look at that part. It is a pressure relief valve. Like an emergency relief valve on a pressure vessel etc. Probably a back up to the fuel vent in case it were to become inop?

[jimshoen]

My first photo shows the anti splash back device originally installed on the coach. That is the fitting which is attached to the tank. The little rubber flap is the problem, or the pos original solution. It is no mystery why it does not work.

[Jerry Winchester]

Jim,

Do you have any photos of the final installation or how the original hose was routed? I am trying to see how all the parts fit together and since I have OTR air, this may be a simpler installation on my coach than one with all the converter stuff in the bay.

[Pete]

I think the blue arrow is pointing at the "framulator" that Roger was talking about. Then he says CC rules....Roger, do you mean Country Coach or Canadian Club?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Roger means CC equals "cheap cars". That's a reference to purchase price.

[jimshoen]

Hi Jerry,
All the hoses are routed the same. The change is inside the tank with the new check valve.