Battery surprise!

[adamdegraff]

Hey All,
When I took possession of my coach, almost exactly one year ago, I bought brand new coach batteries and chassis batteries. The coach batteries were impressive. (6 big Lifelines... I think 4D, but I'd have to check to be sure.) They would run what they were supposed to run in my coach for 12-16 hours without causing the Auto Gen Start to kick on. This was true in the dead cold of winter and the heat of summer.

9 months later, the batteries were still doing OK, though I was down to like 10 hours of regular usage time.

10 months, down to 8 hours.

11 months, down to 6 hours.

12 months, down to 4 hours

Almost 13 months, about 3 hours.

Keep in mind that my usage "style" has not changed. They just won't hold the charge as long. Visual inspection reveals clean, well connected battery cables. Though, the batteries are packed in there tightly and it is difficult to tell for certain. No green corrosion is visible. The charge from the Alternator and the Generator both test as the same as they did before. The alternator, around 26 volts (always been that way), the generator is at 27.7 or so.

I really thought that by going with what I thought were top of the line batteries, they would last a little longer. I guess I expected some decrease in battery life as the years past. But not such a significant difference by the month.

Any thoughts? Should I have gone with a different battery / brand?

Thanks!

Adam

[jack14r]

I have heard that AGM and gells have some memory,I don't know if it is true.I was told that 3 discharge cycles along with 3 complete charges would wipe out the memory.I have always wondered if it was true.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Adam,

This link is worthwhile reading. it will give you a better understanding on your batteries, battery charging, and specifics about charging rates and the general care and feeding of batteries.

There are a lot of factors that influence the life of a battery. The voltage when your autostart is initiated for example influences the number of life cycles on your batteries. Other factors also determine your battery life such as charge voltages and rate of charge. All of this information is in this link:

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Battery%20Charging

But before assuming your batteries are no good you need to do some checking. First determine that using a battery tester. You will need to remove the cables and test each battery individually because if you do have a failed battery nothing you learn in the link above will help. If the batteries test OK (make sure you use a tester sized for the batteries) all you may need to do to bring some life back into them is to give them an equalization charge. Your inverter handbook can help you do that.

Our batteries are our direct link to a life of ease in our coaches. They are a consumable item and have a life span. We can influence that to a great extent. We can use and charge them in the most beneficial manner, or we can abuse them. The key is in making sure the inverters are programmed for the specific type of batteries, that the inverters are set at a charge rate that does not exceed the best rate, and that we comromise by not allowing an especially deep discharge before recharging.

My guess is you have a bad battery, but it could be you also may have some errors in how the inverters have been programmed.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Do AMG and gel type need to be desulfated periodically like wet cells.

What is even more alarming to me is I would think that someone full-timing could get more life from batteries due to frequent use than others who don't.

[adamdegraff]

Jon,
just to be clear, if I disconnect all six batteries to test them, do I then have to remove them from the bus? (huge difference in time!) Or would I be able to get a tester to each of them? (I know.. you can't see my battery compartment, but I think all Marathon's are the same.) Where does one obtain a battery tester like this? Is it something I can get done at any old RV dealer?

I will take a look at that link and report back.

Thanks for your post and all of your help!

~Adam

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Adam,

The batteries can remain where they are as long as you can get at the terminals.

Here is the tester I use:

http://www.nationaltoolwarehouse.com/xq/asp/N.Battery-Starting-Charging-System-Tester/PID.ESI-725/prodid.130395/TID.%7B5C370614-0B7D-490D-818D-C835030CD0B2%7D/qx/product.htm

There are many on the market. I selected that one because it goes up to 2000 CCA.

You don't have to buy a tester if you can drive the bus to a battery place like Batteries Plus. They can do the test. Of course you will be sitting in the parking lot disconnecting cables drawing attention. This might be heresy, but if your batteries are ventilated well, and easily accessed so you can check and service them lead acid are robust, cheap and give good life. I would not consider them unless accessing the caps is easy and the compartment has plenty of ventilation however.

Joe,

AGM can be given an equalization charge 2 to 4 times annually. I don't think all gel cell batteries can take the voltage of an equalization charge.

[truk4u]

Adam,

The life of the batteries are based on cycles. For someone like yourself, being full time and using the bus as it was intended, I think you will probably use up the life of your batteries much sooner than most of us. This is my own opinion, but if you think about it, every time you hook to shore power or run the generator, your batteries get a bulk, absortion charge then go to float. I think all these cycles add up and take the life out of the batteries. On my Marathon, I used to change the Trace settings so I didn't get a bulk charge when plugging in after running all day since the batteries were fully charged.
I also discussed Equalization with LifeLine for AGM's and they didn't recommend it, but maybe it can't hurt.

I have been using this Battery Load Tester for 10 years and just replaced it this week for another of the same brand. It's 49.00 at NAPA.

4266

[adamdegraff]

OK, I'm looking at my heart interface freedom 25 inverter/charger manual. A few questions.

1. I have two inverters... like everybody else I suppose. Do both inverters charge the batteries? Or is just one used to do that. I assume they are both set up for that.

2. I see that the dip switches can be set for different types of batteries. Wet cell cold, wet cell warm, gel cell cold, gel Cell warm. I have AGM, Lifeline 4D's. I assume mine should be set for one of the Gel settings. I have 8 options to choose from and it does tell me, for each battery type, the folloiwng specs:

what the Bulk Voltage/Max time is
the float voltage
and the Equalize Voltage.

I assume, somewhere, for Lifeline 4D's, there is a chart telling me what they should be set at, thus assisting me in choosing the setting?

Thanks!

Adam

[garyde]

Hi Adam. From what I remember, my Lifeline batteries came with a chart indicationg recommended rate of charge. Since I had Gel batteries previously, the new AGM's were the same rate of charge.
When I removed my old Gel batteries, two batteries were bad, reading 11 volts.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Adam, The short answer is that gel and AGM batteries have two different charging protocols. AGM are tolerant of charging cycles like those of lead acid (flooded cell), but gel battery charging voltage limits are lower.

The manufacturer's charging instructions are to be considered the gospel, but in general you can bulk charge AGMs at around 14.25 volts (28.5 if set up as a 24 volt system) but should limit gel cell batteries to around 13.8 (27.6 for a 24 volt set up). An equalization charge will be somewhere around 15.2 volts, a definite no-no for gel cell batteries. Float or absorbtion voltage should drop down to around 13.7 (27.4) volts.

The rate of charge expressed in amps is dependent upon how you use the coach. "Dry" camping probably dictates a high rate of charge so the generator can fire up as needed, slam a charge into the batteries and shut down quickly. Using that rate of charge if connected to shore power however may trip the shore power breakers if you are also running some AC units, so setting the dipswitches like everything else in our coaches is a compromise.

I am guessing here, but if your dip switches are set for gel, you may not have been getting an adequate charge.

Both your inverters do carry the responsibility for charging your batteries. However, it sounds like we have the same inverters and set up, and if so I have noted that one of mine predominantly carries the charging load. If you want to verify both are working however, turn off the small inverter switch in the remote panel on the one handling the charging, wait a few seconds (there is a delay built in) and see if the other one picks up the charging load. When you turn the switch back on the other inverter may retain the charging workload. I suspect the reason is for slightly different values in the sense circuits of the inverters.

Your first step is a battery test. let your generator run a long time until with no DC loads (like lights) your DC current is showing the lowest value. That would indicate the batteries are as charged up as they are going to get. Then disconnect the cables and test them. It may be that you need to give them an equalization charge (I think that is dip switch number one, which should only be on for this purpose. Check the book), or it may mean there is a bad battery.

As Truk pointed out however, batteries are consumable. There is a direct correlation between battery life based on depth of discharge and number of cycles. We use our coach different than you do, so our depth of discharge is minimal. As a result my 4 1/2 year old batteries still show a 25 volt charge in the morning after sitting all night in a rest area without running the generator at all during the night. But my "dry" camping events during those 4 1/2 years can be counted on my fingers. We are either driving, or plugged into shore power so our depth of discharge under normal conditions is almost nothing. You may have deep discharge conditions depending on the auto start voltage, and your batteries may only last 1000 cycles.

[jelmore]

Jon and others,

Do you know about "power sharing"? I've always had a bit of a hard time getting my head around charger, inverters, batteries, amps and voltage but I'm coming along. In the dip switches, there's one that controls power sharing and from what I read, if enabled, you can set the charge rate to unlimited and the charger will adjust how much is going into the batteries based on the AC loads, and that is supposed to keep the breaker from being overloaded. Do you know about that power sharing feature or do you use it? I like what you said about fire the generator and get the batteries back up quickly, but I think the way I (and you?) have the inverters set up, one provides a fair amount of charge and the other only a small amount. If power sharing works as I described, the Liberty's instructions of unlimited power available to the charger makes sense. I guess it's easy enough to try, it would just be a tripped breaker. I just haven't done that.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

When checking the batteries immediately after a charge they will show a higher voltage than they really are. You have to wait 3 or 4 hours after the charge cycle is over to give them sufficient time to rest and come down to the actual voltage.

I have charged batteries 1 at a time and a bad battery will really show up if you check it the next day, occasionally some dropping 2 or 3 volts overnight.

The longer you let them rest after charging but before checking the more definitive results you will see.

Kinda tough to do when your living on board and moving around every other day.

If your house is 12 volt you can unhook 1 at a time from the bank and still use everything. You may have to buy 2 longer battery cables so you do not have to remove the batteries, so when you disconnect one of the middle ones you can re-hook the 2 on either side of it together.

Be careful wear gloves and glasses

[jelmore]

Never mind on my comments. I just reread the manual and am confused again. On the Freedom 25 units, there's also the issue of how they are wired into the source AC that affects power sharing.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

The power sharing phrase has been used in many different contexts. I have given up on trying to determine what it means.

Some coaches are set up so the inverters "know" how much shore or generator power is available and the inverters adjust their current draw for charging so as to not trip a shore power breaker. But not all coaches are set up that way, not all inverters have that capability and not everybody considers that feature power sharing.

Adam's inverters and remote panels sound exactly like what mine has and if I am correct he has to manually set rates of charge. He has no control over which inverter is doing the battery charging. It could be one or both.

[adamdegraff]

Jon,
it does sound like we have the same set up. If I do go ahead and do an equalization, could I do it with the generator only? That is... that manual says it takes 8 hours. Could I just turn the gen on before I go to sleep, flip the #1 switch on then off to trigger an equalization, let it do it's thing and see what the verdict is tomorrow? I do NOT have gel cells. I have 6, 4D Lifeline AGMs. They are a bitch to reach. Even to unhook all the cables would be a multi-hour, warm weather job. Something that won't be in the cards for a while. For now, the best I could do would be to re-inspect for tight, corrosion free connections and, advice pending, run an equalization, and, make sure after that, that my dip switches are set for the proper charge. I just assumed that since Marathon replaced the batteries, that they would have set the inverters up correctly. In fact, I know that the previous coach batteries were also Lifelines. That is not to say thought that the settings were correct.

Am I correct that to check the remote panel switches, all I need to do is unscrew the panel and take a look? I'm a little afraid :-)

~Adam

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Adam you may be learning maintenance cycles here. It is getting close to a year now. That overnight may help with the gen as you questioned. If not you need to check your batts. Is the house 12 volt?

You went from being pretty good to terrible in a matter of 60 to 90 days (some pretty good record keeping too) That is a sign of a possibly bad apple in the bunch.

I would want to know if there is a week battery in the bank dragging the others down. If there is, the earlier you yank it the less harm it does the rest.

I think full timing as you do, frequently on Batts, isolating and then load testing each one separately at once a year should be on the list.

[phorner]

Adam,

If your remote panel looks like this one, it is simply a matter of removing the four screws to pull the panel out. The dip switches are found on the back.

Real easy. You'll need something small to flip the tiny switches into position.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Paul, would you please post a picture of inverter no. 2 panel.

Thanks JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

The two panels in Paul's, yours, mine etc are identical. What would the second picture show you?

Adam,

.....the inverters don't care or know the source of power so your plan to run the generator makes sense. While access and removing cables may pose a problem it is something that is ultimately going to have to be done. It will be nice if equalization is the silver bullet, and it is certainly the easiest thing to try before going any further, but if it fails to work you or someone will have to access the batteries, remove the cables and do a test.

As a practical matter if I were in your shoes this is what I would do. Run the equalization, and then reset the dip switches to suit your particular situation. If the batteries are still prematurely losing power then testing for a bad battery in the set only pinpoints the issue. It will not change the next step.

If you have a bad battery the entire set needs to be replaced anyway. So who cares which battery puked? Replacing one battery is false economy and Dale Farley did an excellent piece of research that he posted a while back (after Spearfish) that you might wish to review.

Once you decide the batteries need to be replaced you can shop the market, determine which batteries to purchase (each type has its advantages and disadvantages) and figure out how and when you will get the job done.

Unlike my case where a failed battery is something I can deal with at my leisure, and I can test to see if I can learn something (won't change the required response) you depend on your batteries so you need to react sooner rather than later otherwise you are going to end up nursing a sick set of batteries.

[truk4u]

Adam,

If you do any battery or cable removing from the house batteries, make sure you first unhook the ground wire to the Equalizer that is behind a panel in your battery bay. Regardless of what anyone tells you, it's a nightmare to just remove the cables one at a time for load testing in your Marathon. The fact they're hooked in series/parallel makes getting the cables in the proper place is critical. I changed out all my house and gen batteries in my Marathon and it was a BIG job, something you wouldn't want to do in a campground. If you get near north GA anytime soon, stop by and I'll help you out, but we would have to get Jon to fly down to do the heavy lifting.;)

4329
Yours proably looks like this....

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If and when the time comes to change out batteries Truk is absolutely right. A failure to hook everything back the way it was can have some serious consequences. Unless you can get a battery supplier to sell you batteries at a fair price INSTALLED you are faced with paying serious dollars to make the change out so consider getting a POG member to help.

If you find someone to do it, take pictures, make sketches, mark the cables with numbers, and generally do whatever you have to do to insure the cables end up where they started.

I dread the day I need to replace house batteries. And my house batteries are right where I can get at them. Chassis batteries will be simple.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon, I wanted to see where his amps were registering on panel 2.

Mine are always very high, around 20 or above often 55.

JIM

[rfoster]

Jimmy C. What all do you have on when you are pulling over 20?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Roger asked the correct question Jim.

If you have all the coach lights on it will be common to see one or both of the inverters with high loads on the right hand column.

If you have had the coach dark and the inverters on full time you should see both panels with the RH column display at the lowest level, and it should remain there until you start adding some DC loads such as lights.

If on the other hand with the DC loads off, the load shows the high levels you are seeing, it may be a battery is starting to go bad. Our chach is always plugged in at home and the inverters and house batteries are never turned off, so when I walk into a dark coach and look at the inverter displays my voltages in the left hand column are 27 or thereabouts, and the only lights lit on the right hand column at the bottom lights indicating the inverters are not putting out much if any charging current.

Remember that when you are connected to shore power, even if you have any 120 V circuits drawing current such as the refrigerator, or the forward or rear outlets, the TV, or anything else that goes through the inverters those are only pass through loads and will not add to the load shown on the right hand displays. Those loads will show up on the 120V ammeters.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I am showing 25A with Tivoli and lighting master off.
The only things running are battery chargers 1&2 refrigerator and webasto.

JIM

[rfoster]

Jim C. That sounds like a lot for just the webasto , chargers should be to float?and Refer. How about the TVs,(at least the big 3) VCRs,(2) Sat Dish recevier and controller? Toe kick heaters? cruise airs off at the breakers?, Engine block heater? Engine battery charger off? I always cut the bottom little refer off at the dial when stored.

& I always cut the front outlet breaker off to stop the tvs/vcr/dvd from being on instant on.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim, The Webasto is a 24V device. If you cut that off does the panel show lower current draw?

Running a Webasto says the bus is outside in the snow. Do we need to talk about garages again?

Don't worry about any of the 120V devices if you are runing the generator or using shore power because they are not drawing on the batteries.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

No, the bus is in the garage, and I was just stating what was turned on at the moment Roger asked.

I keep the sliding door open and run the webasto as needed to keep warm.
While I am building/finishing off the barn interior I am living in the bus, aro 4 days a week.
When I am not here I heat the bus with electric. It has worked fine so far, even with many days much below freezing.

Inverter #2 just bounces around the high amps all the time, rarely dropping down to the 5A level.

I have a new inverter ready to be put in, but not until it gets warmer here.
I found one (new) at such a low price I doubtful I would get it, but it arrived in 3 days in a sealed factory box. I copied the link to recommend the source, and discovered that the inverter is now discontinued, so no wonder about the price. Including it anyway, as they have many other items we all use at very low prices, compared to other sources.

http://www.marineboatsupplies.com/electrical-inverters-c-85_30.html

I want to check out the batteries, but with the cold and their being tucked into that small compartment behind the tag, I will not attack a job like that (first time) under adverse conditions.

There could very well be some poor/dirty/loose connections somewhere.
Inverter no1 shows all normal and good, so wouldn't that mean the batteries are not the issue for inverter no2??? If they work for inverter 1, then wouldn't they be good for inverter2???

I did not winterize the bus, just spending a lot of garage time in it instead.


I am getting better at the picture posting. Fixed the posting with the bus outside the barn, there were some photos that did not go in the first time.

The internet is poor here and I do not have a solid connection. In and out:(

When I get a chance I will post more pics of my barn project.
Just finishing the electric after the framing and today will start the drywall.
I like doing the work, but alone no records are being broken, especially with the cold. Pulling no 12 wire and connecting 45 duplex receptacles in 20deg :eek:.

Sorry for the rambling too lazy to make separate posts.





JIM

[rfoster]

Jim C: that Sounds to me like you are doing just fine. :cool:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

A couple of comments and questions.

Why do you think you need another inverter? Just curious. Is this going back to the original questions you had relative to voltages which are so long ago I forgot the details?

As far as batteries, those behind the tag are easy enough to reach that an hour or so disocnnecting the cables and running a battery test may answer your concerns about the charging. Far better to find out sooner, than when you take Barbara on her first long trip and things start acting up. You get tense, she gets upset and it goes downhill from there. Wait until later trips before you have stuff break.

The question about inverter #1 and #2 is easily resolved. Turn one off at a time using the switch on the display. Wait a while because there is a small delay, but after a few seconds the unit that is on should pick up the charging load. Do that with both and the results should be the same.

I think the inverters sense the state of charge and reduce charging current to the batteries once they are topped off by going into float. I suspect because of tolerances the voltages each sense may vary slightly, so one ends up with the task of charging, and the other which senses the batteries are charged just kind of idles. When you turn the other inverter off, the remaining one should show it is carrying the charging responsibility. If you pull the batteries down deep enough they should both show higher than normal charge rates, subject to the charge rate you have set with the dip switches.

[adamdegraff]

I followed Jon's suggestion, did an equalization, made sure to set dip switches correctly. This was all quite easy to do. Batteries are still not lasting very long, though we are in some extreme temperatures right now, so I think my plumbing bay heater has been running constantly, which is a pretty good draw. I suspect I have a bad battery somewhere. Since Marathon charged me two arms and a leg for the batteries and installation, I may have a chat with them. The batteries are only a year old. That just seems too young to die.

Jon, do I understand correctly.... if one battery is bad, the whole bunch is spoiled? Yikes. That's an expensive fix.

Thanks to everybody for the help!

Adam

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Adam, one bad battery does not mean the rest are spoiled, however if you read the link I previously sent, as well as Dale's post on his recent battery replacement you will see that mixing batteries of various ages seriously compromises the utility of the entire set.

The bad battery obviously needs to be replaced, but if you replace just that one, the different charging needs between the new battery and the older ones is going to reduce their ability to serve your needs.

Yes, replacing a set is expensive underlining why it is important to do all we can to extend their life, including changing the depth of discharge level for automatic generator start.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

BTW, I hope Marathon can go to bat for you with Lifeline. It sounds as though your autostart is functioning as set and intended by Marathon and that what is happening is possibly a warranty issue. I am sure you will need to get the coach to someone acceptable to Marathon and Lifeline to verify a failed or failing battery so you can get the problem resolved. Any delay on your part now likely makes a resolution satisfactory to you more difficult to obtain because time is critical in battery warranties.

[hhoppe]

This thread is only one example of the value of not going it alone with a bus. My first bus involved going it alone for 6-7 years but doing so with great expense and mysterious problems. My stumbling onto POG brought a renewed excitement to owning and operating our bus. We use it a lot more and enjoy every minute of it. Meeting all the wonderful POGGERS over these past few years has added has added greatly to that experiance.
Thank you all. We hope to continue with you for the next few years.
Shirley & Harry:):):)

[Sid Tuls]

This thread is only one example of the value of not going it alone with a bus. My first bus involved going it alone for 6-7 years but doing so with great expense and mysterious problems. My stumbling onto POG brought a renewed excitement to owning and operating our bus. We use it a lot more and enjoy every minute of it. Meeting all the wonderful POGGERS over these past few years has added has added greatly to that experiance.
Thank you all. We hope to continue with you for the next few years.
Shirley & Harry:):):)

Hey Harry does that include me to ???? :confused: Hope all is well wth you !! Sid Tuls

[rfoster]

Well Stated Harry.

Mr. Skiffer: There is another promo line for POG "You don't have to go it alone"

[dalej]

Hey Sid, Harry is still mad at you, we'll let you know when it's safe to return! :)

[flyu2there]

This thread is only one example of the value of not going it alone with a bus. My first bus involved going it alone for 6-7 years but doing so with great expense and mysterious problems. My stumbling onto POG brought a renewed excitement to owning and operating our bus. We use it a lot more and enjoy every minute of it. Meeting all the wonderful POGGERS over these past few years has added has added greatly to that experiance.
Thank you all. We hope to continue with you for the next few years.
Shirley & Harry:):):)


Couldn't agree more Harry! I was about to be shaken down by Joe Schmukatelli's Mobile RV Repair and Wholesale Burritos when Truk mentioned POG. My right index finger was two knuckles into my nose trying to repair my Webasto when Mike Anderson stepped in and saved the day!

John

[hhoppe]

Sid: I enjoyed our encounters er I mean conversations. DaleJ is wrong I was never upset with you. I even sent you an email exponding on our new found friendship. Black and white cows? you were kidding right?