2008 Prevost chassis vs 2009 chassis

[utahcamera]

Does anyone have knowledge regarding a Prevost that is being marketed as a 2009 yet has the exhaust exiting at the rear bumper level as opposed to the other 2009's that have the exhaust exiting through the roof?

Was it just an in line exhaust switch or is the chassis indeed different? I realize that the 2009 designation is the coach builders prerogative; however is there a VIN number that "starts" the 2009 model?

[jack14r]

The vin number will tell you the shell year,count from the end back 8 numbers and that is the year if it is 2001 or later,all 08 and newer shells will have the exhaust through the roof.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jack was being polite. He did not say how there is a potential for converters to play with model years. Converters have the option of titling a completed conversion any model year they see fit, up to a certain limitation. I don't think they can title a conversion with a 2005 shell as a 2010 for example. However, while you may be able to buy a 2009 conversion it may be a 2007 chassis and Prevost will always go by chassis year when you need parts or service.

I think future buyers will ignore the chassis build year and value the coach based on the title or registration, however there are some coach features that are desirable or less desirable and savvy buyers will seek out coaches with those, ignoring the converter's title year.

We have seen buyers want IFS so they will seek a late 1996 chassis, and ignore the converter's title year. Conversely, some buyers wanted to avoid the latest mandated EPA engine configuration so they sought out chassis years that did not have those changes.

[utahcamera]

So Jack, you're saying that the coach we most want to purchase, from an interior point of view, is in fact a '07 chassis? And if that is the case do I want a '08 chassis for any reason other than the "mental satisfaction" that it is a '08 chassis?

If all things *except* the exhaust through the roof are equal than I don't think it's a deal breaker. But: if there are indeed chassis improvements that would change the complexion of the deal for me.

I currently own a '07 45' Country Coach so the move up will be substantial in all areas. However as we plan on doing 15k+ / year in road time for the next few years, I don't want to make a deal solely based on the interior of the coach.

[garyde]

I'm assuming they are still using the Detroit Engine w/ allison transmission on the 2008 and newer chasis. I don't think the Volvo will have as much low end torque.
Prevost has continually upgraded their slide systems on the newer chasis to make them less troublesome. There is also a new computerized anti sway system which corrects the drive train if you begin to slide sideways. I do not know if it is optional or standard for the 2008 Prevost.
Structurally, Prevost began re-designing the frame of the coach after 2005 to engineer more frame structure underneath the floor of the coach to accomodate slides. The upper frame will be less important to the structural composite of the Coach.
I'm sure there are more changes than these. The Prevost Web site may be of some help as well.

[Kevin Erion]

I am not 100% on this but I think the exhaust out the roof was done to accommodate the new emissions stuff. The muffler has a regeneration system inside that burns off soot at 1400 degrees. In my opinion, you are better off with the 07 chassis if the only difference is the new emissions stuff, they could present some issues as well as taking interior space away.

[Petervs]

I think Kevin is right, but I think the soot is removed with a filter and it needs cleaning or replacement at intervals, not cheap. Also, I think the mileage is less because they use Exhaust Gas Recirculation and it makes the combustion less efficient.

I would prefer the older chassis. The big truck companies bought a huge number of trucks before the 08 model year, and the truck selling business dried up when all they could sell was newer with emissions equipment because all the fleets wanted more fuel efficient units.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Tim,

I think you need to prioritize those features that are important to you. We do that and find it is a blend of chassis and conversion features that influence our purchase.

Do some research on chassis features because in the 2007 to 2009 range there were some very significant changes including the ones Gary and Kevin mentioned. But don't ignore the house. I often suggest that people not consider a coach strictly based on decor, but there are important things we all want. If you will be using the coach a lot those interior features could be important. You already have a motorhome so you are not new to this.

Personally I would stay very far away from the emissions features that require the exhaust through the roof and I would avoid a coach with the Volvo engine. Detroit dealers know their engines and our buses. I think the jury is still out regarding service issues on the Volvo engine.

[Kevin Erion]

I just talked in length with my over the road truck dealer about the exhaust scrubber mufflers. It is his opinion that the vocational truck (inner city) use is worse that the over the road trucks. When the computer decides to regenerate, or clean out the soot, it needs 1400 degrees for a period of time. With the over the road trucks it will see that when you are driving. The inner city trucks will need to park and run at a high idle for a set time. During this time it will also inject diesel into the muffler to help burn the soot. He also mentioned they have seen a few of these injectors go bad and the fuel into the muffler can go rich and create more soot.
NICE!

[Orren Zook]

They tell me that the exhaust temperature at the exhaust tip on the over the road trucks is 800 requiring the use of special synthetic lubricants that can handle the heat - especially in the turbo. These kind of temps will melt the asphalt on streets (imagine waiting for a long traffic light) so exhaust up was the only option. I also hear fuel mileage has returned to the 3-4 mpg range..... kinda that makes my coach look like an economy vehicle!

[garyde]

Here is a photo link of the filter: http://picasaweb.google.com/garydeinhard/DropBox?authkey=ju5gdKWbrKk&pli=1&gsessionid=VTdv8IDJqPRh60eP5LL6Jg#

[0533]

I was looking at a 2009 Prevost conversion with the volvo engine while at Prevost Jax a few weeks ago. The folks at Prevost car told me that Detroit will no longer be selling Prevost Car Engines any longer now that Prevost is using Volvo engines in their buses.

I also took a look at the reenforcement that the newer buses add in the lower framework for structural integrity for slideouts etc, it is a better solution.

The one thing that still makes me wonder is the seemingly high number of warrantee work on the slideouts. Each visit to Prevost car I always see a few coaches in with their slides removed, skin coming off, windows leaking, broken etc. The slide issue seems as though it could be solved. The most recent one I was looking at had its slide roof skin come up. They said it came apart because the converter used black paint on the roof instead of a lighter color, heat lifted the glue I guess. The converters and Prevost could benefit from a seminar or two I think.

[jack14r]

Tim, IMHO I would not buy a coach that is more than 1 year different from Prevost to converter year model.If I am looking at a 2007 shell it should be a 2008 conversion and since it is 2009 now it should be priced accordingly.It would have had a birthday in the converters or dealers inventory.Each year Prevost upgrades the shell and we as buyers should get the benefit of that technology.When it comes time to sell or trade a shell that is more than 1 year different will be worth less.

[utahcamera]

Hello Jack,

Yes that is exactly where I stand!

We are flying for Las Vegas to DFW to look at the coach on the 17th of this month. It will be very revealing to see the VIN #.

I do want the latest anti skid saftey sofware/hardware however.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I was looking at a 2009 Prevost conversion with the volvo engine while at Prevost Jax a few weeks ago. The folks at Prevost car told me that Detroit will no longer be selling Prevost Car Engines any longer now that Prevost is using Volvo engines in their buses.

I also took a look at the reenforcement that the newer buses add in the lower framework for structural integrity for slideouts etc, it is a better solution.

The one thing that still makes me wonder is the seemingly high number of warrantee work on the slideouts. Each visit to Prevost car I always see a few coaches in with their slides removed, skin coming off, windows leaking, broken etc. The slide issue seems as though it could be solved. The most recent one I was looking at had its slide roof skin come up. They said it came apart because the converter used black paint on the roof instead of a lighter color, heat lifted the glue I guess. The converters and Prevost could benefit from a seminar or two I think.


Proof positive that newer may not necessarily be better.

First, Prevost still doesn't seem to have the slide design right. All the slide owners in the world can post how their slides are trouble free, but based on the number of slide coaches that have been at a service center when I have been there the repairs on slides seem wholly disproportionate to other parts of the chassis.

As to the new underfloor structure being better, I think that entire issue needs to be looked at in context. Our shells were not originally designed to have big holes cut in the sidewalls above the bay doors. That chassis without cutouts is essentially a bridge sitting upon the axle subframes. It is light, yet very strong.

So when the marketplace was clamoring for slides Prevost was forced into it. They initially responded by hacking big holes in the side wall, right through the structure, and then building a massive and heavy new structure to compensate for the loss of strength.

As the plastic coaches and Newell added more slides the Prevost customers continued their demand for more slides and Prevost responded by changing the place where the coach gets its strength. Now by placing the reinforcing between the axle subframes, instead of on top of them, the bridge is no longer sitting atop the sub frames, but between them.

The big deal about doing that is the bay space has become severely compromised. If the gang that wanted to do away with OTR to gain a few cubic feet of storage analyzes the storage space they now have they are going to be severely disappointed. Not only has access been made more difficult because now you have to crawl under the slide to get at the bay, the bay space is reduced by a frame structure that cuts into the bay openings.

It is my personal opinion that Prevost is now going backwards. Space is being severely reduced, not only in the bays, but in the back to accomodate a through the roof exhaust.

The easily serviced Detroit engines are replaced with Volvo, and the vast network of Detroit dealers is now gone to the owner and when service is required the bus will end up in truck dealerships where it will fight for service.

Slides may be great for walking abut room inside the coach, but in the end a four slide coach owner doesn't get an more furniture or a bigger bed and likely loses a little more room to compensate for the slide mechanisms and wall thickness. Not yet known is if even the latest generation of slides (the pinless slides) work any better than, or even as well as previous generations of slides..

The good news (maybe) is that it is possible the bonding problem has been addressed.

[jack14r]

Prevost will tell us that the first slides were a disaster,since about the 04 shell slides there have been very few problems,and the newest slides which have no pins are very good.I heard a Prevost rep say that the first slides almost broke Prevost.I have the latest slides and they are very smooth operating in and out,because of the way I use my coach I really need slides and I really like the additional space.Jon,you are right about the bay space being different but I rearranged all my stuff and it all fits in the bays,I am not sure that the space is smaller but just different.Also Jon I agree with you that the shell might be comprised with slides installed,I think that only Prevost slides are designed correctly,I would not consider slides by Featherlite,Valid or any other supplier because I don't believe that the engineering by others is equal to Prevost.

[Sid Tuls]

Jack, when did prevost start making the slides with no pins? I've only had trouble once and it was my rear slide and that was only a relay switch in the bedroom slide. This happen in Nashville,Tenn. and they had me fixed in less than an hour. thanks

[utahcamera]

I did find out some things today. There are a few '08 shells out there with "regular exhaust (low)" and '09 interior conversion options. i.e., the shell is a '08 as verified by the VIN # and the Mfg. has installed the '09 options in the conversion.

Garyde’s photos were very helpful! As an old drag racer I can tell you that restriction equals less power any way you cut it. From the looks of the photos the engine is breathing in free and trying to exhale through a straw.

It is true as 0533 stated that Prevost will no longer be using Detroit’s and have been using Volvo in the seated busses for some time. No one seems to be talking about what will be in the ‘09/’10 shell. I’ve heard everything from Volvo to Cummins.

With respect to Sid Tuls comment about no pins, the ‘08’s do have one pin centered under the slide.

[jack14r]

The so called no pin slides(1 pin underneath)were manufactured with the 07 shell.I also understand that Detroit Diesel has extended their offer to Prevost to continue to sell them until 2010,the only current options that Prevost has because of height are the Cummins or Volvo unless someone builds a new shorter engine.

[0533]

I was told that Prevost is talking to Cummins about a backup engine source, no plans have been concluded.

As for slides, I do not care how new or old, slides can be tricky. I had my slideout (the original shuttle launch pad) redesigned and rebuilt when I purchased my bus, it works wonderfully (cross my fingers) for now but it is still a huge heavy room of steel that moves in and out and is subject to potential failure if not maintained like all else.

never ever forget and leave something in the track of the slide out that can get lodged in the slide, it will really cause big problems especially in the newer ones, can completely screw up the entire system.

As for the older ones, Hydraulic ones with huge hydraulic arms it does not make for as much trouble. I once got a DVD stuck in the track between the outside wall and the slide, heard some grinding noises like a trash compactor, checked it out and found hundreds of pieces of plastic along the track. Now I use the slide as a trash compactor, very efficient, it just grinds and all the stuff exits onto the street.

But seriously I was in Jax Prevost when a couple from So, Carolina showed up with their slide out stuck in, almost in anyway with a broken glass that had fallen from a wine rack into the track, be careful these units are very close tolerance items.

They, newer ones also have issues with skin coming off more than other areas as it flexes more.

[utahcamera]

We are looking forward to heading to DFW next week to look and drive the ’08 chassis, XLII 2 slide, without the DPF and with the ’09 conversion.

With all of the "what will the next engine be" stuff in the air”: is Detroit in good financial condition given the state of the economy? And how hard is it to find a service center? Thanks to you all for your comments!

[garyde]

Hi Tim. If you go onto their website, you will find State by State their service centers. www.detroitdiesel.com

They are everywhere.

[Petervs]

Just a refresher. Daimler Benz purchased Detroit Diesel a few years ago. Volvo bought Prevost a few years ago. Daimler Benz and Volvo are competitors worldwide, and it makes no sense to buy from your competitor when you already make a competing product.

Prevost probably does not have a huge engineering department so it takes a while to re-engineer things when this type of product change occurs. They can only change so many things at once.

Daimler-Benz markets their truck engines as MTU brand all over the world except North America where they still call them Detroit Diesel because of the reputation. The new Detroit Diesel engines are not Series 60 but a Mercedes product that is similar generally. In the marine marketplace in the USA, they still sell Detroit Diesel Series 60 engines labeled MTU.

I think the future of Detroit service is probably quite secure, although over time they might be called MTU, and all the newer products will be Mercedes built engines. Daimler benz is probably one of the srongest automotive companies in the world. I personally believe they bought Detroit Diesel more for the access to the US market through the service outlets than for the actual product. In fact, they probably felt it was a good way to eliminate a strong competitor.

The Series 60 as we know it is practically an orphan already, but is likely to be supported for a very long time. As are the 2 stroke diesels, which still have very widespread use in the marine applications (yachts). As an aside, they often get more than 1000 hp from the 8V92 engines, 2 big turbos and there is no overheating problem because there is all the cooling water you could desire available right under the boat, but you better not let the cooling water pump fail! Often boats will have two of these engines, and since the boat probably weighs 90,000 pounds and water makes a lot of drag, the engines will drive it at 25-30 mph flat out. Burning like 120 gallons per hour combined, no kidding! They usually operate the boat at about 18 mph where the fuel burn is better, like 75 gallons per hour. I only throw out these numbers for perspective, they are representative, each boat will be a little different.

My own personal preference is a Series 60 engine prior to the particulate filter technology being needed. The simplest, best fuel economy, and probably most reliable engine ever put in a Prevost coach.

[jack14r]

I have been told that the DPF engines get much improved fuel mileage compared to the previous few years with the EGR engines.With the DPF the Detroit Engineers could be much less aggressive with the electronic pollution controls and as a result fuel consumption improved.If Bill Jensen is at the west coast mini rally this weekend maybe someone could ask him this question,along with if they have decided on a engine for 2011.

[utahcamera]

Thank you for the factual history lesson on Detroit. I did not know that MTU and Detroit had common parents. I have chartered and captained many a yacht (45'-65') and can testify to the fuel burn spoken of. If you look at the 75’ plus yachts you will see MTU engines in many of them. MTU is considered to be the engine of choice. From there you move to turbines.

As an old drag racer I fail to see how something as restrictive (see the photos on this thread provided by garyde) as the DPF can improve anything except air quality. That said my ’08 BMW with 350hp gets 22 mpg at 84 mph. So I would be quite willing to be proven wrong.

[utahcamera]

All bow to jack14r... We just got back from DFW at 2am this moring and the '08 VIN # which I was told had the lower exaust position does in deed have the exhaust out the roof as jack14r stated. Drove great and were trying to cut a deal now. Thank you all for your partisapation!

[parksincpp]

The 09 Chassis with the multiplex system and new exhaust are an exciting addition to the chassis. At first the multiplex was a little overwelming but the message center on the dash is a great tool for diagnostics. With this, trouble shooting is a snap. For those that don't know multiplex system is used by Volvo around the world to control the wiring with less wire.The exhaust thru the roof is great.The emissions are less and are passed up instead of to the next campsite or back to the radiator or worse your TOAD. As far as space lost with the exhaust thru the roof it allows for a larger radiator to control the extra heat generated by the engine to burn off more emission.

Scott

[jack14r]

I understand that the series 60 with the DPF gets much better fuel mileage than the previous years with the EGR,can anyone verify this?

[hillndale]

Does anyone know if there are any suspension or handling differences in a '07 XL2 vs an '08 or an '09?

We're considering an '07 which seemed to ride great and handle great but i've never driven anything newer than that and just not sure if it gets any better than this one.

[utahcamera]

I understand that the series 60 with the DPF gets much better fuel mileage than the previous years with the EGR,can anyone verify this?

Hard to say what "better" is but I'm getting 5.9 at 70 - 75 (near sea level) on an '09 XLV2S that only has 10,000 miles on it.

My previous 45' Country Coach with the CAT 525 HP C13 always got 5.6 no matter how I drove it.

Hope that helps.

[utahcamera]

Does anyone know if there are any suspension or handling differences in a '07 XL2 vs an '08 or an '09?

We're considering an '07 which seemed to ride great and handle great but i've never driven anything newer than that and just not sure if it gets any better than this one.

I was told by the Western Prevost Rep that there were no chassis changes between the '08 and the '09 shells. Can't speak to the '07 shells, but I'm thinking not. If anything it would likely be the software controlling the chassis?

[utahcamera]

The 09 Chassis with the multiplex system and new exhaust are an exciting addition to the chassis. At first the multiplex was a little overwelming but the message center on the dash is a great tool for diagnostics. With this, trouble shooting is a snap. For those that don't know multiplex system is used by Volvo around the world to control the wiring with less wire.The exhaust thru the roof is great.The emissions are less and are passed up instead of to the next campsite or back to the radiator or worse your TOAD. As far as space lost with the exhaust thru the roof it allows for a larger radiator to control the extra heat generated by the engine to burn off more emission.

Scott

FWIW I was told that all shell serial numbers starting with the last four digits of 9574 and up are '09 chassis. i.e. XXXXXXXXX9XXX9574

[Sid Tuls]

FWIW I was told that all shell serial numbers starting with the last four digits of 9574 and up are '09 chassis. i.e. XXXXXXXXX9XXX9574

Hi Tim I think i spoke to you when you were looking at buses. Sure would like to see pictures of your bus! Are you going to make it to the next POG in OK in Oct? Sid Tuls

[Joe Cannarozzi]

No difference between the 08 and 09, does that include the cost too, NOT:rolleyes:


Looks like that 10 extra mph from 65 to 75 is good for almost 2mpg, that's big.

[utahcamera]

Hello Sid,

Yes that was me and we finally put a deal togeather on an '09 XL. You're input was very valuable.

I'll be in the Visalia/Bakersfield area for the next two weeks on business.

I look forward to meeting you and Judy soon. I'm just waiting for this tornado we call life to slow down a little :)

Tim and Brenda Smith

[Sid Tuls]

Good morning Tim, I'am happy to report that I will be out of town in the bus till June 8th:D We are going to be on a bus trip with our final destination being Galtlinberg,Tenn. But any other time you are always welcome at our home here in Visalia. I have 50amp hook-up if you ever need a stop over! Glad to hear that you found your bus!!:)

[hillndale]

I was told by the Western Prevost Rep that there were no chassis changes between the '08 and the '09 shells. Can't speak to the '07 shells, but I'm thinking not. If anything it would likely be the software controlling the chassis?

Thanks for the info. My sales rep from the converter said they're pretty much identical and that in '07 they got wider front tires (i think he said it was '07) so i guess there's no real downside to a 2 year old new unit compared to an '08 or '09. Its a big savings but our main interest in Prevost is the handling so hopefully this is as good as any of their newer model years.

[jack14r]

The wider tires(365 compared to 315) began with the 2004 shells,the 365's are also on the tag which makes it easier to find a tire if you have a flat on the road.A 315 will fit on the tag and get you home,also the wheels on the front and tag are the same.

[hillndale]

The wider tires(365 compared to 315) began with the 2004 shells,the 365's are also on the tag which makes it easier to find a tire if you have a flat on the road.A 315 will fit on the tag and get you home,also the wheels on the front and tag are the same.


you're right. he did say it was in '04. do most people usually carry a spare tire? we'll probably take a trip to Alaska and i'm thinking one spare front tire might not be a bad idea.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

We don't carry a spare tire, but I think if you were taking an extended trip way up North, it might be adviseable to carry one on that trip, just in case. :)

I think Jon W. once said he carried one for over 10 years, and never once needed it, so he took it out. I am sure Jon knocked on wood when he took it out too, just for luck. :eek:

Gary S.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary is right. I carried a lot of dead weight around in the form of a spare tire mounted on a rim I polished on both sides.

Since I no longer carry a spare if I lose a tire I have 315's all around so I can limp to safety by putting the bad tire on the tag and lifting the tag. More practically I carry plugs and can fix a puncture enough to get me home. If the tire is beyond repair I get the closest size tire I can if 315's are not available and stick it on the tag. I did that once with the original coach and again with this one.

The key is fanatical attention to tire pressures.