Tampa Super Show

[jack14r]

I am sure that POG members are at the show.I heard from a friend today that the attendance is down but that the people that are there are potential buyers.I also heard that a new Vantari XLII DS is 799 a H3 DS is 850 and a H3 TS is 950,has anyone else heard this?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Easy Jack that Liberty your currently sporting hasn't seen its first birthday yet;)

[lewpopp]

Most of the rich boys from PSL went over there and I told them to bring something back for "show and tell".

[jack14r]

Joe you must have been in Florida too long this winter,you caught Lew's disease.It doesn't seem like anyone went to the show this year.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jack,

If those numbers you cited are what they are willing to sell those coaches for that will just extend the pain to all the other converters. When a company is dumping inventory it especially hurts any companies trying to gain traction in an already lousy market.

[jelmore]

Jack,

If those numbers you cited are what they are willing to sell those coaches for that will just extend the pain to all the other converters. When a company is dumping inventory it especially hurts any companies trying to gain traction in an already lousy market.

I suppose those prices would significantly reduce the annual depreciation on one of those new coaches. I sure hope that kind of price doesn't devalue the preowned market by a third or more. But hope and reality certainly aren't the same, eh?

[jack14r]

I agree Jon,I am hoping that it is not true but the old Featherlite has 25 or so to sell and in this environment along with their sale to Amadas they only have price to entice a buyer.

[phorner]

At the Prevost display yesterday, they had a new, painted, double slide XLII shell that had Millennium badging.

According the the folks there, that factory painted shell alone was worth just under 700K.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If the new coach selling prices are that low I think we can all assume the prices for used coaches are going to be impacted.

We all are in the middle of the perfect storm. At one end the converters are doing what they have to with price to sell their inventory, and as we saw previously when Vantare started listing their $1.3 million coaches for $900,000 there was an immediate impact. It didn't help that prior to that legendary coaches were hitting the streets at a little over $600,000.

At the same time Vantare did that the used coach market pricing dropped, and those who hung on to their asking price ended up not selling their coaches. Som exceptional coaches held most of their previous value, but the market in general smelled blood and we saw $300,000 coaches fall to $200,000 pretty quickly.

If Jack's observations reflect what it takes to move new coach inventory it is certainly going to hit the used coaches, especially since the market has shrunk due to the tightening of credit. Fewer buyers for the coaches out there has to mean that it has clearly become a buyer's market. I would hate to have to sell into this market. I would love to be a buyer however because the prices aren't even close to what replacement costs are and some coaches are going to be as cheap as they can get.

When this mess straightens out the prices will not go up in the used market either. I'll bet they will just stop depreciating for a while. The only thing that could make this situation worse is for a major problem with new or used coaches to be announced like some serious engine problem forcing a recall or skin delamination or lack of service parts.

[Jim Skiff]

Paul,

Sharp eyes! I stood next to it and in it and didn't notice the Millennium Logo......even after I took a couple pictures of it! :eek:

[jelmore]

Just talked to someone that knows the people that own Liberty and seemed to know very well what the arrangement was with Amadas and Featherlite. Maybe you all know this, but thought I would pass along the gossip I heard. The Featherlite name, intellectual property, debt, etc. was sold, but not the inventory. The inventory stayed with the Featherlite owner and it was all paid for. So it can be sold at those low prices and it's all cash in the pocket. I repeat, this is only campsite gossip. It does makes a good story.

[garyde]

The only thing about that Jon, is like stocks, which are at historical lows, gas prices which were at historical highs, & now at 5 year lows, what is assumed today to be true will turn out to be wrong tomorrow. We are going thru weird times.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

What is true is that the combination of things that has depressed values across the board will eventually go away and conditions will improve.
What I think is hurting us now more than anything is that folks who are in a position to spend money and help the economy by buying houses, appliances or cars are hesitant and until they do spend we will be experiencing tough times.

But cars wear out, appliances need to be replaced and families grow so houses will be needed. The pent up demand will eventually return and things will become more normal unless something big screws it up, like the government.

[Coloradobus]

On another line of thinking, friends who didn't go told of friends who went to the Tampa Show and happened upon 4, 4 slide Marathons. 2 were XLII and the 2 were "H"'s. All four 4 sliders didn't have a W/D. Asking the salemen why these 2.2 million dollar coaches didn't have the washing/drying equipment, his answer was, "Marathon Coach owners are finding they enjoy the comraderie of others in the Laundramat of camp grounds.:rolleyes: WHAT!!!??? We wouldn't be without our Washer/Dryer!
I wonder what the salestaff at Florida Marathon are thinking?

[jack14r]

All of the 4 slide coaches are close to gross weight before they are loaded,I think that Marathon was forced to leave out the WD to try and get the bus within Prevost limits.I would not purchase any coach without a WD.I have seen some floor plans that have space for the WD and I assume that Marathon has wired and plumed it,they don't want the liability of the coach that is overweight.I asked Marathon how they weigh their coach and the salesman told me with tanks empty,diesel at minimum,no one in the coach including the driver.I bet that most of the 3 or 4 slide new coaches are over weight with just fuel and water.I was at Prevost Nashville in 2006 and the tech told me that they could not lift one of the nascar 2 slide Marathons and they weighed it at the truck stop nearby and it weighed 58,000 LBS,I was also at Marathon Florida that year and a driver for Jeff Gordon said that his 3 slide H weighed 62,000.I would like to know what a 4 slide would weigh ready to travel with fuel,water and stuff.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

They are gonna have to leave out more than that.

54000 is legal max for a 3 axle comercial vehical.

[jack14r]

Joe you are right,but these coaches are never weighed,and they are not commercial.That 62,000 LB marathon also had a stacker trailer with a Suburban,golf cart,and 2 motorcycles and he said that it weighed 20,000 LBS the total was 82,000 and he used it throughout the US.Do the commercial axle weights apply to our coaches?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Agreed but still pretty outrageous.

What are the weight limits suggested by Prevo?

I know we have been here before but refresh my memory.

Jack I do not know why they wouldn't but I believe no one has ever looked into it, a ticking bomb waiting. I'd be willing to bet even if one of these overweight tanks hit and hurt someone that no one would have the insite to ask to have it checked.

A wolf in sheeps clothing.

I wonder what the reaction would have been if those DOT weighed that bus and trlr at the rally in the Dakotas and I'm also glad they did not.

[Coloradobus]

Yes, I know the coaches have to be overweight. Our former coach that is permanently impaired, being a single slide XLII weighed in at 17,580 on the front axle alone. I still have the weigh ticket. We had to run those front tires at 130 psi.
We were in Beaumont Ca Marathon. in November and I couldn't get anyone to tell me weights on the new coaches. I can only assume they are close or at or over their ratings from Prevost. I figured that deleting the W/D was a weight saving enddeavor vs community conversations.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The premise that because it is a commercial bus chassis, and therefore can handle the loads is ridiculous.

The saving grace was expressed by the State Police in SD at the Spearfish rally. They don't give private motorhomes a second glance because they are inspecting commercial vehicles. To the best of my knowledge Ohio will keep a vehicle that is over their axle limits off the Ohio turnpike because they have in ground sensors, but so far most conversion drivers that are overweight, overlength or both can travel with impunity.

Right up until the point where there is a serious accident. And when that happens the lawsuit will resemble those that happen in aviation with the owner, the converter and Prevost named in the suit. As soon as Volvo has to stroke a check for serious money I guarantee they will cure the problem by not honoring any warranty work on overweight coaches. I'm absolutely amazed Prevost (Volvo) has not already done that.

I was there when Bill Campbell (a former Prevost co-owner) gave a serious warning to owners to observe the axle weight limits. He never did that again because a couple of the big converters apparently took him behind the woodshed and spanked him. Since then axle weight limits to some converters are nothing more than suggestions. It will bite them in the butt.

[Ray Davis]

I asked Marathon how they weigh their coach and the salesman told me with tanks empty,diesel at minimum,no one in the coach including the driver.

That's interesting, when I purchased my current Marathon, I asked the saleman this same question, because he had given me the Marathon weight values. I told him I assumed that this was empty weight.

He told me "no, that's full water, full fuel, and two passengers in the front of the coach".

I wonder which is true, or if practices have changed?

Ray

[jack14r]

Joe,The current XLII and H3 have a gross of 54,500,the axle weights are
front 18,000
drive 22,500
tag 14,000
total 54,500

[Coloradobus]

Ray

When quizzing a Marathon Exec about how they weigh a coach, it (the coach) is as empty as possible. No water in any tanks, and very little fuel.
Some day, when we feel rich, I want to take a new coach on a test drive, with a full fuel tank and water too, fresh, grey and some in the black tank. During this test drive, we will go to a scale. We all travel with some icky water at tiimes, and that adds weight. But we aren't in the market for a new coach, so I guess the thought is moot.:(

[jack14r]

Ray,If you have weighed your coach do your weights match Marathons numbers?

[grross]

MARATHON has always provided us with CAT scale weight slips for the coaches we bought or were interested in. When asked, they assured us the coaches were weighed wet, except for holding tanks. Upon weighing the the three coaches we purchased we found the presale weights to be accurate. Since we travel with our dogs and their related food, pens, etc. weight carrying capacity is a major issue with us.

[Ray Davis]

Ray,If you have weighed your coach do your weights match Marathons numbers?

I haven't had a chance to do that yet, but intend to. I did find in the paperwork inside the coach, the previous owner had weighed it, and it was on the order of 1000 pounds heavier than the weight I was told.

So, that would tend to agree with the "minimum" weight. However, I did just look up the email from my salesman, and it definitely said, fuel, water and holding tanks were full. I may have remembered hearing that it included a driver and passenger, but I don't see that in the email here.

Ray