Winter Camping (Snow Skiing) Update

[jkbriggs]

Just a report for those concerned about using their bus in very cold weather. Went from Dallas area to Angle Fire, NM over Christmas for a week of skiing. High temps were in the teens and low temp was -10 degrees. Had 50 amp service. Ran Webasto & batt chargers the whole time. Have two plumbing bay heaters (1 electric & 1 runs off Webasto) controlled from thermostat. NO PROBLEMS! I was shocked at how well the Webasto worked. Wife & kids said it was too hot inside at night. When started engine after week of freezing temps, engine coolant gauge went to 160 immediately. Never turned block heater switch on. In preparation, I did check coolant freeze points for both engine & gen. Forgot about windshield washer tank & it froze solid (but didn't crack - thankfully). Roads were snowy, but plowed. Slow is your friend.

[jello_jeep]

Right chilly temperatures there!!!

Glad all went smooth for you, always nice when NO calamity strikes ;)

[Loc]

Jody,

I have been wanting to take the kids skiing at Angel Fire. Which campground did you stay in - I assume it was in Eagle's Nest. What did you do about water? How crowded was Angel Fire?

Loc

[merle&louise]

Hey Loc & jkbriggs,

Louise wants to try snow skiing (she's never done it) for Christmas next year. We were thinking about skiing in the Santa Fe area. I have never driven in snow with the coach, but I think it would be interesting.

What is it like driving on state and county roads? Did you encounter any ice?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If you do not have any experience driving on snow and ice be very cautious when you do it.

Some secondary roads have soft shoulders or no shoulders and while the bus is not affected a whole lot by wet heavy slush and snow, it would not take much to get into that stuff and get pulled into the ditch, or to drop off the side, overcorrect and end up in a skid.

When you are driving on slippery surfaces you must always be aware that any sudden moves such as braking, accelerating or rapid steering inputs all have the potential to cause the bus to lose traction, at which point you as a driver need to make the right moves to recover, or accept the fact that you just became a passenger.

If you haven't spent a lot of time driving in that stuff in a car I recommend you stay to interstates and roads that have been plowed and treated with sand or whose surfaces are dry. I watch the drivers here in Knoxville when it gets slippery just in the rain and it is scary.

[merle&louise]

Jon,

Can the locking differential be used in snow for extra traction?

Would raising the tag axle be helpful?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

A locking differential is excellent for getting you traction on both drive wheels when one has lost traction and you are stuck. However I would never consider its use once under motion. Tires going around a curve or corner travel a different distance based on which is on the inside of the curve or outside. A differential allows that variation in speed and number of rotations. Locking the differential means one of your drive wheels will lose traction every single time you go around a corner or curve and that is the very time you need traction on both steers and all drive wheels.

Picking up the tag transfers more weight to the drive wheels which is good to provide extra traction when stuck and you need to get moving. However, to run on slippery surfaces with the tag up gives extra traction to the drive, but does so by transferring weight off the steers, and they also need to retain traction. In fact you never want to lose traction on your steer axle. Bad Juju.

[merle&louise]

Boy, that's good to know about the steer axle losing traction when the tag is up!:eek: I never thought of it that way; I was only thinking about the drive axle traction. Glad I asked the question. Thanks Jon.

[jkbriggs]

Loc, we stayed at Golden Eagle in Eagle Nest. Its 11 miles from slopes. Last year stayed at Monte Verde in Angel Fire (3 miles from slopes), but they had too much snow this year & canceled our reservation. But ok, because GE has 50 amp & MV only has 30 amp. Went in w/full fresh & empty holding tanks so I didn't have to mess w/either. No real icy patches on road. Stayed on plowed roads, went very slow through Cimarron pass using 2nd gear most of the way (I had been cautioned about using engine brake on slippery surfaces). Also, planned trip so I went in and out of area in the "heat of the day". Angel Fire was absolutley packed! Next year, maybe a week or so later. But it was a great trip! I love the combination of "camping" & skiing.

[Loc]

Thanks Jody. I think Angel Fire would be perfect because with the exception of Cimmarron Pass (which isnt much of a pass) there are really no hills to climb if the weather is bad. I would have to limit the water consumption, but other than that, it sounds great.

[Jeff Bayley]

I have always wanted to go spend a month or more at the ski resorts in CO. and work from the bus and just snow boad when the conditions are really nice (like a local would do). One of many adventures I still have to look forward to.

Regarding the handeling on snow and ice, I'm not expert but when I was on some really slippery roads in New Mexico once out in the middle of no where with no traffic, I took the opporunity to lay into the brakes and see / test how the wheels would lock up and get the feel for her before I found myself in an emergency. If there had been a big empty parking lot, I would have done some turns to see how the back end might break loose. Experience if the best teacher and experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted. If you find a safe place to do some testing like this then you'll know what to expect when "the time" comes. Even without having wide open testing spots for radical testing, you can always give yourself enough berth to stand on the brakes to see when your bus is going to lock up given the conditions on that road and that day's conditions. Then you can let off the brakes again letting the wheels turn to regain traction and bring a stop. At the very least you want to know how much extra distance to give yourself for an emergency stop. Once the wheels lock up and your sliding, panic set's in pretty fast and you'll have a better chance at avoiding being a frozen "passenger" as John puts it if you've got a few practice recovery's under your belt. It's not intuative to let off the brake and reapply once your sliding. It's human nauture to tense up and brace yourself. But that is what you have to do. I do this in all my cars on wet conditions to see what's what before I have to do the testing in a real situation.

Oh, the most important thing. Make sure you have a safe place to stow your cocktail before beggining the testing.

[Coloradobus]

You bet Jeff,

That is exactly what we did teaching newby bus drivers in Yellowstone back in the 70's and and 80's.

We would take a coach full fo new fresh driving blood to the day-shier parking lot at Big Sky Ski Resort before it opened each new season and let th new guys do donuts and the such. As you know, it does give you the feeling of how the coach reacts in snowy conditions, so you know how to react.

[lewpopp]

You jokers are talking about snow camping and here I am in Florida and dread the next few days because it is going down to the 40s and low 50s the next few nights. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Jeff, leave the juice alone when you are driving in the snow. Advice I doubt you'll listen to. Ya never do. Shame on you. Bad boy.

Why aren't you going to the Fiesta Key mini POG rally with the boys?

[Jeff Bayley]

Lew-

I got you again sucka with the cocktail joke. Good thing your not a fish or I'd bait you in every time.

What up with the Fiesta Key get together ? I don't log in like clock work to keep up so I missed that date ? Guess it must be soon. I saw where some people are meeting at you digs a few days early before the Shuttle Launch. We are going to shoot for that. The Fiesta Key thing sounds like something different.

[jelmore]

High temps were in the teens and low temp was -10 degrees. Had 50 amp service. Ran Webasto & batt chargers the whole time. Have two plumbing bay heaters (1 electric & 1 runs off Webasto) controlled from thermostat. NO PROBLEMS! ...

We left Tulsa at 23° in December. Our CruiseAirs kept us very comfortable. Our Webasto is way too smoky and smelly to run in a campground. Do you know if our CruiseAirs would continue to work in those really, really cold conditions?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jim I always thought that heat pumps would only work down to 40 degree.
If yours were working at 23 that would be special but I'm not sure if doing that is very good for them.

You really need to run and clean out that Webasto you'll be happy you did.

[jelmore]

Jim I always thought that heat pumps would only work down to 40 degree.
If yours were working at 23 that would be special but I'm not sure if doing that is very good for them.

You really need to run and clean out that Webasto you'll be happy you did.

I had thought that about heat pumps also. I'm not real clear about it, but these are reverse cycle units. They don't use the outside air to get heat is the way I understand it. They just turn around the refrigerant and go the other way. Again, I'm not clear.

On the Webasto, a year ago it was serviced with a new nozzle and coil. Got on the road and it smoked. They said just adjust the air. Couldn't get it any better. This year, another service by the same people, new nozzle, new adjustments. They let it run and said after it got warmed up, it would quit smoking. Fool that I am, I thought it was fixed. Duh, of course it quit smoking. It shut off! I need some better professional service.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

The way I understand the heat pumps not operating below 40 is the freon does not flow easily below those temps and it is hard on the unit.

I was also under the impression that they had a fail safe that would not even allow start-up below those temps but evidently that is bad info.

[jelmore]

The way I understand the heat pumps not operating below 40 is the freon does not flow easily below those temps and it is hard on the unit.

I was also under the impression that they had a fail safe that would not even allow start-up below those temps but evidently that is bad info.

I talked to Johnny at CruiseAir. You're right. Below 40 degrees the freon gets thick and can can cause valve damage in the compressor. Rare, but they've seen it. I have SMX II controls and they doen't read outside temps so I don't know if it has that fail safe. Johnny said it was a miracle that we got heat. The only explanation has to be that they were running pretty much continuously during the 40° day, and then going into the colder night and 23° morning, the freon never had a chance to get cold. Also, the asphalt we were parked on probably held enough heat through the night for things to work. He did mention that starting up the CruiseAirs when they are cold is bad. And also suggested our Webasto needs better service. We're just staying in warmer weather. That helps a lot.