Holding Tank Odor

[jimshoen]

Has anyone used this product or something else that works.
http://www.alwaysfreshinc.com/how_it_works.html

[sawdust_128]

Read Phred's Poop Sheets here:


http://www.phrannie.org/phredex.html


I use a little "Rid-X". I wait until there is about 10% fill on the black tank and then add about a teaspoon. I had a little bit of a build up in the black tank when I first got the coach. I used Rid-x this way and did a little extra flushing of the tank the first few times I dumped. Cleaned it right up. If I am leaving the coach for a day or two, If the gray tank is about 50% I will ad some to it as well. I'm not sure it does anything, but I feel better about it.

If you are getting odor in the coach, I would suspect that you have something wrong in venting, valves or in the plumbing. But that's just my guess.


No! I don't know why he named them that.

[lewpopp]

I would guess the question was if anyone used "Always Fresh", not what do you other jokers use.

Yes I used it. Purchased at an RV show and put in 2 scoop per tank full near the beginning of the black fill up and it worked great.

Why don't I use it now? When I ran out, it was easier to get the liquid shit stuff and I haven't come across the product since. It seemed to be easier to store the liquid than the tub which was always along side of the toilet and I didn't like that.

I think I went to the single serving packets you just throw in the pot and I liked that because I wasn't over dosing and wasting Lewbucks.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Why would anyone need this poop deodorant? If the bus venting system is OK it should not be needed, and if the venting is not OK, the solution is to make the venting OK.

What everybody should be concerned about is what the industry calls FOG (fats, oil, greases). That is a material if put down the drain of any type of facility, house, bus, restaurant or whatever is going to create problems.

The solution is to not put that stuff down the drain, but if you cook a lot and dump greasy water down the drains eventually the pipes will plug and the holding tank will have its walls covered with FOG. As FOG ages it get not like a greasy sticky material as most would imagine, but an adobe like material lining pipes and the holding tank.

It must be mechanically removed, or if certain guidelines are followed bacteria that digests the material can be used. Any think other than natural products in the waste stream actually create more problems than they solve. Deodorants, formaldehydes and the myriad of other products often advertised as enzymes only create wealth for their purveyors.

My guess is Mike knows more about fats oil and grease than anyone, and the solution to waste line problems is to let them do what they are supposed to do without adding stuff that masks a bigger problem.

[truk4u]

I have used the chemicals also, but come to the conclusion that all this nice smelly stuff and snake oil does nothing, providing your vents are doing their job.

Now if you want an expert opinion, we all know Jdub is the master of stink!;)

[MangoMike]

Jon is much to modest about his past association with FOG.

One of his many adventures in the past was developing the perfect grease trap for restaurants. Then hawking them across the country.

Unfortunately Mango Mike's doesn't have one of Jon's traps. We tried numerous wonder chemicals and bacteria agents to eat the grease and finally resorted to this:

3757

Once every 3 months we take the 3000 psi Jetter to the pipes. Works like a charm.

mm

[Jerry Winchester]

Just get a can of this. I think Mango Mike sells it at his place......

3758

[jimshoen]

OK, That was all great for a good laugh.
Here is the rest of the story.
I've had the coach for 21 months. The toilet is a Microphor unit that is located directly over the black water tank. The toilet has and internal venting line that goes from the hopper to the bowl above the water line. This tubing is routed to have a water trap in it to prevent odors and the water trap works perfectly. The entire hopper assembly was was replaced so it holds water perfectly. I have personally removed the toilet twice. First time I thought the wax gasket was bad and replaced that. Same issue again. Pulled the toilet and bench tested the entire operation (that is something few have done, and I am sure you would have liked to see that). While the toilet was off, I over-filled the black water tank (after dumping it and rinsing it) through the floor flange until it was completely full to check for leaks. No leaks. Reinstalled the toilet with new wax gasket and still have mild odor problem. The issue gets worse as it is warmer, as you would expect. The holding tank is poly or some type of plastic. So that leaves the vent pipe. There is nothing visible blocking the vent pipe. How do I check that the pipe is clear and venting properly. I agree that there should be no need for chemicals or whatever. However, I do not know what the previous owners may have put down there. I am getting no smell out of the grey water system.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

You are talking basic plumbing. Traps are just as the name implies. Because of a water filled trap, odors cannot come back up through a sink or drain from the holding tank or sewer lines because the water is the seal.

Vents however are never filled with water. Never ever. Vents traditionally are immediately downstream of a trap and vent to atmosphere above the roof. The exception is a vent for an island sink where there is no way to have a vertical run of vent. Any horizontal runs of vent pipe have the potential to become a trap, defeating the purpose of the vent. Those island sinks for example might have an air admittance valve, a device that permits the inflow of air to aid draining via a ball check, but no outflow since the ball check remains closed except when water flows in the drain.

So I doubt if your vent line is venting, but it is likely preventing the odor coming through it.

If your system is sealed theoretically you cannot get odors as long as the drain lines and holding tank are vented. If you are getting odors are you sure that there was not an overflow or leak at one time that saturated the sub floor or some crevices? During a scientific survey take in Mobile we found every body sits on their toilets except Truk, who likely also has an odor problem. The women do not consider the men to be marksmen.

[bluevost]

Jim,

I use AlwaysFresh in my rig, both black and gray. I think it's the best stuff available.

Ken

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jim, did the floor under the toilet look as though it had ever leaked?
How does it smell dry?
How does it smell if you spray it with distilled water?
I'm thinking of what Jon said, and about what happened to Warren.
If the area around the toilet is dry though before the test and after the test I do not think saturated wood is the villain. If it were I think there would be an odor all the time even when the toilet were not in use. I don't think you said there was an odor all the time.

You could test the vent by ingesting an "controlled odor" into the toilet that would not be confused with the usual toilet odor (such as citronella, bleach or vinegar etc) and see if you still thought the vent were working as properly as you believe.

You could fit a vacuum cleaner and pull a suction on the vent and test the toilet the regular way and see if there were still an odor. Make a very loose, imperfect connection to that vacuum, or you may get an effect you don't need:eek:

You also neglected to say if this condition just started, or that you have had it all along.

JIM:)

[tdelorme]

Jim, did the floor under the toilet look as though it had ever leaked?
How does it smell dry?
How does it smell if you spray it with distilled water?
I'm thinking of what Jon said, and about what happened to Warren.
If the area around the toilet is dry though before the test and after the test I do not think saturated wood is the villain. If it were I think there would be an odor all the time even when the toilet were not in use. I don't think you said there was an odor all the time.

You could test the vent by ingesting an "controlled odor" into the toilet that would not be confused with the usual toilet odor (such as citronella, bleach or vinegar etc) and see if you still thought the vent were working as properly as you believe.

You could fit a vacuum cleaner and pull a suction on the vent and test the toilet the regular way and see if there were still an odor. Make a very loose, imperfect connection to that vacuum, or you may get an effect you don't need:eek:

You also neglected to say if this condition just started, or that you have had it all along.

JIM:)

Jim, that is a well thought out solution to the problem.

You do understand that you will very soon loose the ability to think clearly and logically. The moment you hit the starter of your own coach, rational thinking becomes something from your past. Others can do it for you, but when it comes to the Chaloupka Bus, your ole brain is just gonna quit. Just giving you a heads up ole buddy so you can get Jon's number in your speed dial.

[jimshoen]

Jim, The wood part of the floor did not smell when I removed the toilet, however I did put two coats of clear laquer on the wood to seal it.
Jon, I have no idea what you said. What is the best way to test the vent line? The vent line runs straight up through the roof. I know where it is.
What if I dumped the black tank, hooked up the wet dry on the roof to the vent cap, and left the cap off the sewer drain connection and the black water valve open?

[truk4u]

Jim,

I also have bench tested the Microphor after rebuilding in my 97 Marathon. The little line that gets a squirt of water each time you flush is sort of a mini P-trap designed into the Microphor and sounds like yours is working as you described.

On my Marathon, there were several plastic valves in various places in the PVC vent pipes that were designed to allow air to be pulled into the pipe. I don't remember what they were called, but if one is bad and stuck open, you will get some stink. I had one under the galley sink and don't remember where the others were located.

Jeep, jump in here, I don't remember the name of the valves!!!

[flyu2there]

Jim, The wood part of the floor did not smell when I removed the toilet, however I did put two coats of clear laquer on the wood to seal it.
Jon, I have no idea what you said. What is the best way to test the vent line? The vent line runs straight up through the roof. I know where it is.
What if I dumped the black tank, hooked up the wet dry on the roof to the vent cap, and left the cap off the sewer drain connection and the black water valve open?


Jim,

Dump a gallon or two of Clorox down the toilet. Go have a beer so the initial blush of bleach aroma goes away, then......close up the bus and turn on the vent fan near the toilet. Hope like hell that you do not smell the bleach which would indicate some sort of compromise in the vent pipe between the holding tank and the roof....like in the wall. Should that check out, get up on the roof and give the vent the sniff test......carefully run a snake down there in case there are any unwanted guests in the vent pipe. That should be the fix.....

BTW if the vent pipe is cracked, broken, slightly un-glued that can be fxed with pipe lining.

[LarryB]

Jim, do you have the odor with or without the exhault fan running?

Larry

[garyde]

Hi Jim. When Plumbers install new drains and vents on bldgs, they do a test. They take a hose up to the roof, plug all of the drain outlets and fill the system with water. This is to verify they have no leaks and a closed system. This is typically a 24 hour test.

[flyu2there]

Hi Jim. When Plumbers install new drains and vents on bldgs, they do a test. They take a hose up to the roof, plug all of the drain outlets and fill the system with water. This is to verify they have no leaks and a closed system. This is typically a 24 hour test.

I wouldn't be doing that as a form of troubleshooting in a bus....could get really costly in a New York Minute.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

What I am saying is essentially each fixture drain pipe (toilet, sink, shower, washer) needs a vent (a pipe) that is dry (does not carry waste) and goes to the roof where it allows odors to vent to the outside.

The vent Truk is talking about is called an air admittance valve, and it also functions as a vent, but only allows air to enter, but not escape. Its purpose is to allow waste to flow from a sink drain and instead of pulling a siphon to drain the P trap it will admit air to break the siphon.

If you can introduce the odor such as chlorox to the tank from a port in your tanks OUTSIDE the house so no odor is in the house portion at all like Jim has suggested, and you do not smell that odor in the house the problem does not lie with your venting or plumbing system. Jim had some good ideas.

Don't vacuum the vent however. The vent system is closed via the water in the traps and vacuuming will just pulll the water from the traps breaking the seal. Have you considered seeing if an unused trap is dry, such as at the washer? If the device is not used often, the trap dries out and then odors have a clear path to the inside of the coach.

[rfoster]

Once upon a time in 1990 I purchased a Gulf Stream Motor Home off the showroom floor of Bankston Motor Homes in Huntsville, Al. This was before quality control programs existed. The motorhome immediately had odors and thru much grief and aggravation we finally traced down the odor to the air admittance valve under the sink. It was defective in that the rubber flange flapper was not sealing properly.. So if you have one of those valves - put the old sniff test up close and personal and you should be able to confirm it is working properly.

Good Luck

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Jim,
Have you considered seeing if an unused trap is dry, such as at the washer? If the device is not used often, the trap dries out and then odors have a clear path to the inside of the coach.


I thought about a dry trap too, BUT, Jim has two seperate tanks, black / gray and so a dry sink trap would not release black tank odors, CORRECT?

Don't all gray water traps drain only into the gray tank?

Unless maybe, your gray water bypass valve has a sealing problem allowing black tank odors to come thru the gray traps?

Gary S.

[jonnie]

Gary,

My experience is that the gray water and tank can get pretty raunchy also.

[rfoster]

Gary: Both tanks get ripe quick in the Sunny South!

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

There have been some discussions about standing and sitting at the ......:rolleyes: and odors in the .......:eek:, well on the serious side of it if you saw what was going on with spray and misses you could better deal with it.
With the use of a UV, or black light, spot light you can see what you or fido for that matter had done. Some lamps are better than others, meaning more commercial/industrial, but for occasional use the cheap one works fine.

I have included two links describing examples of each.

http://cgi.ebay.com/BLAZING-BLACKLIGHT-6-INCH-HANDHELD-POWERFUL-BRIGHT-UV_W0QQitemZ260311113592QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20081 105?IMSfp=TL081105114003r30785

http://www.budgetlighting.com/black_light_stain_detector.html

These lights work on bacteria and mold as well as a lot of other fun things. :D

Try it you'll like it!!

Here is one more source. It looks interesting. Small and cheap for occasional use.

http://www.defensedevices.com/ultraviolet-uv-lights-products.html

;)JIM

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

We get 0dors when I open the drivers window. My fix is to pour Clorox into the drains. No more odors. Ed

[sawdust_128]

There have been some discussions about standing and sitting at the ......:rolleyes: and odors in the .......:eek:, well on the serious side of it if you saw what was going on with spray and misses you could better deal with it.
With the use of a UV, or black light, spot light you can see what you or fido for that matter had done. Some lamps are better than others, meaning more commercial/industrial, but for occasional use the cheap one works fine.

I have included two links describing examples of each.

http://cgi.ebay.com/BLAZING-BLACKLIGHT-6-INCH-HANDHELD-POWERFUL-BRIGHT-UV_W0QQitemZ260311113592QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20081 105?IMSfp=TL081105114003r30785

http://www.budgetlighting.com/black_light_stain_detector.html

These lights work on bacteria and mold as well as a lot of other fun things.
Try it you'll like it!!

Here is one more source. It looks interesting. Small and cheap for occasional use.

http://www.defensedevices.com/ultraviolet-uv-lights-products.html

JIM


Dude!!! You were way past due for a new hobby. The new bus will help!!!:D

[jimshoen]

Thanks to everyone for the recommendations. I have read Phred's Poop Sheets. Very helpful. I will report back the results of the investigation.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Jim,

During a scientific survey take in Mobile we found every body sits on their toilets except Truk, who likely also has an odor problem. The women do not consider the men to be marksmen.

I do believe it was Jim Keller who started this survey when he decided that he had been seeing stains somewhere they shouldn't be. He then stated that he wasn't a marksmen and others joined in and agreed with him, except TRUK.
The women did not complain about "marksmen"!!! Di especially couldn't say that you weren't a good marksman after all the oysters you ate, Jon.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Is it considered marksmanship when you place the barrel of the gun in the target?

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

No further comments, Jon.

Sandy

[truk4u]

Real men hit their target!:p

[Jon Wehrenberg]

With laser like accuracy or like from a shower head?

Don't forget the ricochet.

[lewpopp]

Don't all the rest of you just stand there and put the end of it in the water like I do?

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

The UV light will prove Jon correct :eek: :D

:pJIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Lew, Sandy is really blushing now.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Not since the doctor told me not to lift anything heavy.

[jonnie]

I knew it was just a matter of time before we got to the water is not only cold but also deep part!

[garyde]

Lew, I think they were talking about the bowl that flushes.

[sawdust_128]

Usually big rocks at the bottom.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

I think that I had rather see stains on the floor or cabinet than see bacteria growing on the end of the bullet.
Sandy

[mikedee]

I took an idea from Warren and it worked great. First I emptied and flushed the tanks. Then filled the tanks with water and 1/2 bottle, say 12 oz per tank of PineSol the blue kind and let it set a week or so in each tank.

You will not believe how it cleans the tank.

I also took all the drain vents, I call them island vents, out of the coach. I had four, one under the kitchen sink, under the two vanities, and behind the Headhunter toilet. All four were not working well and a 1-1/2" plastic pipe plug was installed at each location. No issues at all, no slow drains, gurgling or bubbles.

Best of all no smells.

[jello_jeep]

Sorry, been on the road and not up on email/net stuff.

They are vacuum breakers. They cost around four bucks..


Jim,

I also have bench tested the Microphor after rebuilding in my 97 Marathon. The little line that gets a squirt of water each time you flush is sort of a mini P-trap designed into the Microphor and sounds like yours is working as you described.

On my Marathon, there were several plastic valves in various places in the PVC vent pipes that were designed to allow air to be pulled into the pipe. I don't remember what they were called, but if one is bad and stuck open, you will get some stink. I had one under the galley sink and don't remember where the others were located.

Jeep, jump in here, I don't remember the name of the valves!!!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The industry call the valves air admittance valves They are a check valve that does not let air escape from the system, but does allow air to enter the system through the valve.

As I mentioned before, the role they play is to prevent water going down the drain from siphoning the water from the P trap. If you run a little water from the faucet down the drain it is unlikely you even need the admittance valves and plugging the pipe where they are mounted has no effect on the system.

But if you fill the sink with water, and then pull the drain plug, the resultant flow of water from the sink fills the drain line, and that full pipe will pull the water from the sink AND THE TRAP down into the holding tank. Now the trap is empty and the pipe from the holding tank, through the empty trap is a path for the odors from the tank to reach the inside of the coach.

It is my opinion that using air admittance valves, except in the case of an island sink is the cheap easy way to vent a plumbing system, but it is not the correct way. Most building codes actually forbid the use of air admittance valves except in special cases.