Wet Cell Batteries

[dale farley]

While at Spearfish, I determined that I had one bad inverter. I ordered a new one from Xantrex. My old one may have been bad for a while since I was plugged into AC for the 5 months I was in Yellowstone, so I hadn't noticed a problem with the inverter. Upon closer inspection, I also determined that I had a bad 300 Amp T Series fuse.

Since my batteries are easily accessible, I pulled them partially out at Spearfish and decided that they all needed water. At that time, there was no sign that there had ever been any acid boil over. I added water until the level reached the bottom of the filler tube. This was obviously a mistake. Some of them boiled water/acid out on the way home. I removed all of them, washed the racks, wire brushed and sanded them, applied Ospho, primed and painted any metal that had been affected. A lot of trouble for something I caused myself. The batteries are about 2 1/2 years old, and when I checked the voltage, I determined that two of them are bad. After charging overnight, they go to 10.5 volts as soon as a test load is applied. I checked the new ones I bought today, and the water level is about 1/2 inch below the bottom of the filler tube. That may sound insignificant but that is a lot of water in each cell.

I don't know if my inverter went bad and blew the 300 Amp fuse and damaged my two batteries, if the fuse went bad and caused the inverter to fail, or the batteries went bad and caused the whole problem. I do know that I caused myself considerable trouble by over filling the batteries.

I know, I could have AGM batteries and not had this problem. I also know it was really nice to get 8D batteries for $145 each. Since this appears to be the first problem with the batteries and since they are very easy to access, I couldn't see buying all AGMs just because two of mine are bad. Of course, if I had AGMs, I might be buying 2 of them if the inverter was the cause of the problem.

The first picture was after I had washed, sanded and applied Ospho to the racks, so they look worse than before I started. There was no damage from battery acid, but there was a little surface rust. The white in the picture is the Ospho I applied.

[dale farley]

I am not sure if the 300 Amp T Series fuses are only found on the CC conversions. There are 2 on my bus, and they are located in the fuse panel between the two inverters. I do assume that any Prevost with similar inverters has similar fuses, since they are mentioned in the Xantrex operator's manual.

When I started searching for a replacement I was surprised to find that the cost was from $48 to $98 on the internet. The local prices were $65-$95 with a 5-day delivery. After much searching, I finally found a source that will deliver the fuse for $28. If anyone ever needs one of these, here is a good source.

John Drake Services, Inc.
1427 E. 68th Street
Long Beach, CA 90805
562-423-4879
www.solarseller.com (http://www.solarseller.com)

[tdelorme]

Dale you might think you caused part of the problem but you sure did a nice job cleaning up the mess. It's got to be a good feeling knowing that area is ship shape. Well done.
Would a plastic shield have prevented the problem??:)

[garyde]

Hi Dale. I discovered one or more of my batteries (Gel type) was bad at the Rally as well. It was gassing off pretty bad. I checked with Liberty and they recommended replacing with Gel again. As my batteries are in the belly of the coach, it does not make sense to have water filled.
My Country coach had 4 water filled batteries and I replaced all 4 when one went bad as the charge rate and the load rate would have been a problem in replacing just one.
My Liberty batteries are in parrallel/Series which basically means I need to replace all 4 of them. Jim Skiff gave me Lifelines phone # and has set up a discount for POG members.
Jon recommended Glass matt batteries so I am kind of weighing the two types.

[dale farley]

Ted, I wondered about some plastic trays, but maybe they don't want to hold the acid in that area if it boils out. Evidently, there had been no previous problem, because the area was spotless before I over filled the batteries. The area under the batteries has wire mesh. I assume this is to allow ventilation. A plastic tray would reduce that ventilation.

Gary, I was also a little concerned about replacing two of the batteries, but I charged them with an external charger, then checked the voltage after applying a load test, and the voltage is virtually the same on all batteries, so I don't think there will be a charging problem. I hated to throw away 4 batteries that are only 2 1/2 years old. I also talked to the people at Interstate Batteries, and they said there should not be a problem with charging all 6 as long as they were all in good condition.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

There is a cost consideration, a maintenance issue, and a hassle factor to consider when any of us has to deal with replacing batteries.

There is no way I would ever want lead acid batteries in your set up. First, I expect well maintained sealed batteries (AGM or Gel) will never require you to service them with water, clean corroded terminals or spill acid. There is a value there. Second, your set lasted about half the life to be expected of the AGM or Gel so the cost consideration is not so cut and dried. But in my mind the biggest draw back to replacing with lead acid is the fumes in the enclosed space with electrical gear sharing that space. Consider me silly but I want my hydrogen gas producing batteries out in the open and well ventilated.

I think replacing two is false economy unless you don't expect to do any dry camping, in which case just leave the two bad ones in the trash and use the four remaining ones.

[Tully]

I have just run into a problem with my batteries as well.

I bought (4) Excide 950cld crank batteries back in April. No problems.

My bus has been sitting in my parking lot for the last 5 weeks. I went to start the bus and- nothing.

I did notice that I neglected to shut of the two main power switches in the back and suspect that is the cause of the battery drain.

My question, I have pulled each battery out and have charged them. I put a volt meter on them and cannot get a reading above 10.5 volts. All of them ready between 8- 10.5 volts. This is after doing a full charge on them.

I used a 10amp automatic charger that will charge to capacity and then shut off.

No luck. I did check the levels and they appear to be fine.

Are the batteries bad if I cannot get a reading about 10.5 volts. Could all four batteries go bad? Seems odd?

I am going to take all four batteries back to Chicao International Trucks where I purchased them and have them tested.

If all four are bad, I would assume since they are only five months old I would get some type of refund or pro-rated refund?


Tully

[BrianE]

Dale, Thanks for the terrific follow-up. I'm sure we can all learn from your sad experience of the over-fill. I second Jon's comments about no maintenance batteries. I've been using AGM's for about 3 years now and really think they're superior to anything else in the poor access installation found on the Liberty.

Tully, A 10amp charger is way too small for charging a flat battery. When parking for an extended time you need to turn off both of the chassis battery switches.

[dale farley]

Well, I knew I would get "somewhat trashed" for running wet cell batteries, and I knew I would also take a hit for changing two of them.

My rationale was that since the previous owner had only changed the battereis one time (June 06) and had never had a problem other than routine maintenance, the setup must not be that bad. If I thought the batteries caused my inverter and 300 amp fuse to go bad (I doubt this), I wouldn't hesitate to go a different direction.

I do very little dry camping, so I will probably maintain my current setup until the other four batteries reach 5 years old (or die), and at that time, I will decide if I need to change to AGMs. My last two RVs had AGMs and two out of the 6 in each coach died prematurely. Maybe I have a "2-bad" battery syndrone!

I understand the benefits and drawbacks of AGMs, and if my batteries were located in a difficult place to access, that in itself would be enough incentive for me to change to sealed batteries. My main reasons for the initial post was to warn others not to overfill their batteries and to provide a good source for the 300 amp fuse. I must be "nuts", I could have just said, "I changed my inverter and all is well." But since I haven't installed the inverter, fuse or batteries yet, you may hear from me again on this issue.

[JIM KELLER]

Dale, I always enjoy the HONESTY in your Threads ! Keep them coming.

[dale farley]

Jim K. , Thanks for the encouragement. I do understand that my "honesty" is sometiems interpreted as maybe a little "stupidity" by some of the more distinugished POGGERS.

[BrianE]

Dale, Honesty is a precious commodity in this outfit where it's common to make up answers if the facts can be twisted, intentionally misunderstood, or just plain ignored. :eek:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

Given the fact you do very little dry camping, that the battery location is in fact ventilated, I would remove the 2 bad batteries and operate solely with the remaining four, and only when they start to act up would I consider replacement. Four batteries of that size will last all night long unless you really run a lot more than just the refrigerator and some lighting.

Replacing only two gives me a little concern, and in the context of how you use the coach dragging six batteries around is overkill.

[dale farley]

Jon, I agree with your rationale, but since I have already bought the two replacement batteries, I will use them until I have another problem. Hopefully, the 270 pounds extra weight will be balanced by the fact that I will have the extra capacity if ever needed, and I won't have to remove the cables for the two absent batteries. I dislike the modification of things from their original configuration unless absolutely necessary.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

Don't second guess your decisions. You gave rational thought to this whole issue and have valid reasons for your choice.

We are nothing but second guessers who do not have a dog in the fight.

[dale farley]

I just called the battery store to see if they thought the water level was okay in the new batteries I just bought. They said the batteries should be filled to the bottom of the filler tube (the same thing I have always heard and practiced). What this tells me is that I didn't overfill my batteries to begin with.

It seems reasonable to me that one of two things happened. The batteries were being overcharged because of the bad inverter or the other inverter was overcharging because it was trying to compensate for the two bad batteries that were never charging above 10.5 volts. I've put the 4 original batteries on 40 amps for an hour, and there was no boil over from them. I'm going to fill the two new ones also before I install them.

[Ray Davis]

Dale, did this boiling over happen when you were driving? Perhaps then your alternator is directly charging, and overcharging the batteries?

It would be worth checking the voltage coming from the chargers before and after starting the coach.

Ray

[Kenneth Brewer]

Dale; My unsolicited comment and advice:

"But in my mind the biggest draw back to replacing with lead acid is the fumes in the enclosed space with electrical gear sharing that space. Consider me silly but I want my hydrogen gas producing batteries out in the open and well ventilated." - Jon

Amen. I don't know how long the coach is intended to be kept, but with 19 years and counting on my '84 Bluebird, which is 'built like a tank' and came with lead cells, I can tell you a price will be paid for keeping wet lead cell batteries within the confines of a metal coach without, at the least, enclosing and venting the batteries. I would not do this for a week; the corrosion is very hard (if not impossible) to stop even after trying to neutralize the acid depostion on surrounding surfaces, once it begins. I am not making a value judgement on what was done - just please consider this advice.

As for mixing significantly older batteries with new ones on the same charging circuit; been there and done that too, with the result that (and I don't remember which one to swear on, but I think:) the newer one(s) get cooked because the older ones are harder to get the nominal full charged voltage value due to loss of plate material. Anyway, one lags behind the other.

In any event, in my case I did this twice in about 12 years or so. As i recall the newer battery (or was it the older) got so hot that when I attempted to bring the water level up to cover the plates, idiot that I am, the battery was so hot internally that steam was instantly and explosively generated. I couldn't add water (distilled) and wound up replacing all the batteries.

I recount this to you, short memory notwithstanding, because this is the major reason why it is not a good idea to mix old with new.

Finally, 10 amps IS too small. This is why I have a shop wheel charger, the biggest I could get for a few reasons, as I have a few different vehicles, and it (from NAPA) handles 6/12/24 volt batteries.
.

[dale farley]

The boiling over was when I was parked at Spearfish. I noticed that one of my inverters was charging when it shouldn't have been. The other inverter was in float mode.

Let me reitterate the fact that, before my inverter went bad, there was no sign whatsoever that any acid had ever boiled over in the compartment. No Rust, No Corrosion. I went a little nuts when I saw acid on the of some of the batteries. I removed all batteries, washed the compartment, wire brushed it, sprayed baking soda on it to neutralize any acid, and let it set over night. I disolved about 4 oz of soda in a spray bottle and sprayed it rather than trying to cover everything with the powder.

The water and baking soda caused surface rust to appear by the next morning, so I wire brushed those spots again and sprayed Ospho to neutralize any remaining rust. I let that set over night, then brushed it again, wiped it with an automitive general purpose adhesive cleaner, primed with Rust Olem and painted it with Rust Oleum high temperature paint. If I were to get battery acid in the compartment again, I would repeat the process.

I try to make a habit of cleaning and painting (if needed) any area when I remove a component or disassemble anything on the bus. I may not keep the bus another month, and I might keep it 5 years, but I want to maintain it as if I will have it for the next 20 years. I wish I had the time and patience to treat all my farm equipment with the same care I do the bus.

My battery compartment is "very" well ventilated.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

This may not even apply, but before you get too far verify your inverters are not set to do an equalization charge.

On our Heart Interface 2500 Freedom inverters we have to set dip switches. The #1 dipswitch for example should always be in the "off" position except when you need to do an equalization charge. If left "on" it will go into a 15.5 volt equalization charge for 8 hours before switching to bulk, absorption or float. During that equalization there is a lot of bubbling and outgassing.

As long as the coach always is on shore or generator power it will not repeat the equalization charge, but if that power is interrupted, it will reinitiate the charge as soon as power to the inverter is restored.

[dale farley]

Jon, I have read the inverter instructions a couple times in the last few days, including the Equalization charge setting. I do plan to read the manual with the new inverter and hopefully set things the way they should be when I actually install the inverter and batteries.

I took my two batteries back to the store and had them check them and fill to the correct level. They said they are shipped with low fluid so they won't spill. They just forgot to check and fill mine.

I noticed they were using a filler like the one in the picture. It automatically stops the flow when the battery is at the correct level. I figure since I currently have 26 lead acid batteries in various vehicles and equipment, this might be a handy device to have. I am sure some of you have seen these, but I had not.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I got one of them. It means I have too many vehicles with batteries.

[truk4u]

Dale,

Just a side not... CC does a poor job of venting that compartment. All you have is a small square tube on the rear side of the compartment that vents to the space just in front of the drive tires. That compartment with the inverters humming along in the summer is a heat factory. That's probably why they switched to AGM,s in the later years.

The compartment really needs a fan to move air...

[dale farley]

Tom,

All four of my bottom batteries have a wire grid that is under them and open to the bottom of the bus. The top batteries ride on a steel frame under the edge of the batteries about 3" wide, and the middle is completely open. I would think the air would flow quite freely around the batteries while the bus is in motion since the batteries are about 3/4" above the grid.

I heard someone at Spearfish say they left their bay door open while parked inside to allow for more complete ventilation of the inverter bay. I wonder if it would be wise to turn off the inverters when not using the bus for several weeks at a time? Your previous comment also makes me wonder if I should install a fan in the bay.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

If you have not experienced any issues prior to the recent spillage, which may have been a charging rate problem, why do anything different now?

When my bus is not in use I never turn anything off. I leave my chassis batteries "on", as well as my inverters to keep my house batteries up and I also usually leave pressure in the water system, but the pump off.

The inverters do a good job of maintaining the charge on the batteries.

[dale farley]

Jon,

I was just thinking that it might extend the life of the inverters if they were't on all the time. I noticed that the manual does say turn them off when not in use for an extended time. I currently leave everything on when the bus is in the garage.

I was thinking that since the CC automatically bypasses the inverter system if one goes bad, maybe it would be okay to just shut the inverter down while connected to AC. I realize I would need to add a battery tender of some kind to maintain the charge in the house batteries (about $100). I now have a 24V Deltran Battery Tender ($85) on the engine batteries, and it works fine.

I am in the "thinking" stage and welcome input. I am not interested in doing anything that sets me up for additional problems, but I'm in favor of doing things that are actual improvements to the current setup. So far, I see no negative effects that this should have.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Dale the fellow that repaired our Heart told me he has had one (on his bench) turned on continously for better than 10yrs.

[dale farley]

Joe, That sounds good. I wish I could expect mine to last 10 years. Considering they offer excellent charging procedures, I probably will leave mine turned on also.

I just finished installing the inverter, 300 Amp fuse, and the batteries. The hardest part was making sure I got all the wires labled so I could ensure I put them back in the right position. The first picture shows the old inverter when I removed the end cap and exposed the wires. the second picture shows all the wires once I pulled them out and labled them. The last one is after everything was put back together. I am not replacing the cover over my batteries until I make sure there is no more boiling over. I am currently running off my inverters with a medium load, (refrigerator, lights, etc.) for a few hours, then I will recharge and watch the batteries and monitors.

After installation, I started checking the main settings, and found that the default settings are not what the book says. The default for wet cell batteries is supposed to be "0". Mine was on "1" which is the setting for gel cel batteries. I checked my second inverter, and it was set the same. This means my batteries have previously been charged on the gel setting vice the wet cell. I talked to the Xantrex tech and got him to go through the settings with me. The four settings that I would normally need to check, were all wrong on both the new inverter and my second one.

I suppose the moral of this story is don't depend on the default settings being what they are supposed to be. This very likely caused or added-to the problem with my batteries. So far, everything seems to be working fine.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Guess what Dale....if your inverters were previously set for gel cell, you probably had them in there at some point in the coach's life.

Running lead acid on gel cell voltages will not damage the batteries except limit their charge voltage. Running gel cell on lead acid battery settings is the kiss of death for them.

On my inverters the #1 dip switch turns the equalization charge on or off. Leaving that switch on is bad news for any battery.

[dale farley]

Jon, That was my first thought also, but when I realized that the default from the factory is supposed to be "0" for wet cell, and the inverter was actually set for gel cell, that was confusing. The tech said the inverters are definitely supposed to be set for wet cell when they leave their warehouse.

I am not sure what batteries CC was shipping in the coaches in 1999, but I would think it would have been gel or AGM. As soon as I see the AGMs for about $300, I will change all 6 batteries. Or if the market hits 13,000 before the end of the year, I will give Paulette 6 AGMs for Christmas.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

And she will be getting you a vanity:D

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Something to consider that I have not seen addressed is that you do not fill lead acid batteries that are not fully charged to the max as the water will expand and overflow when charging. Lead acid batteries will sulfate when left inactive. That is a coating that adheres to the plates and generally will trash new and old batteries if left without a charging system on them such as the battery maintainer. Not all battery maintainers do the job. The ones that I have found to work use a pulse type charge. I have found these type will disulfate a lead acid battery if it has not been left inactive too long. Sulfating is the major reason for the junking of many newer batteries. Main reason new batteries are shipped without water, making these batteries new stock even if kept for years on the shelf. Remember the venting of the lead acid battery is not only hydrogen but also SURFURIC ACID. ED

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I am sure if Dale gives Paulette her six AGM batteries for Christmas, she will get a charge out of that.

(Sorry Loc)

[dale farley]

One thing which I never did respond to concerning the batteries is that the CC configuration does not place the batteries in the same exact place as the electronic equipment. The cover that goes in front of the batteries has a seal around it that basically makes it air tight except on the bottom. The bottom of the compartment is vented to the outside. I am sure this makes everyone feel better!!!

[Ray Davis]

Dale,

In a typical POG thread-creep fashion .... Dale, I noticed your telescoping ladder. How do you like it? Can you reach the top of your bus with it, should ever need to get on top?

Ray

[dale farley]

Ray,

I really like the ladder. It easily reaches the top of the bus, and I have used it several times. The portability is really nice. It is so compact, I keep a 4' step ladder in the same area behind the collapsible ladder. I got it off eBay for less than $100.

[truk4u]

Dale,

I think while the bus is moving there is air getting through the compartment since it's open on the bottom and hopefully the heat gets out that square tube at the top. The problem is in the summer while not moving. My inverter fans seemed to be running almost all the time, a sure sign that compartment was cooking in the heat. Any time I opened that bay door while outside in the heat, the compartment was very hot. I thought about putting a temp controlled fan in the compartment and venting it down through the opening. It's almost impossible to mount something up top on the square tube.

Just doesn't seem like a good design when we all know heat kills the inverters and batteries.

[dale farley]

I noticed my fans were running last night about 10 P.M. when things should have been relatively cool. I opened the bay door and left it open. I certainly think an auxillary fan should help but don't see an easy way install.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have ducting and a pair of fans that are powered from the 120VAC inverter output in addition to the integral inverter fans.

The additional fans are controlled by a switch in the bus, and my practice is to turn them on any time we are on a trip. That way the inverters are always ventilated. The auxilary fans exhaust the heat outside the coach.

Just add the fan wires to the inverter output terminals, fuse them as close to that point as possible, and duct them to pull fresh air through the inverters. The ducting on mine is held in place with Velcro. Not pretty but funtional.

[hhoppe]

Freedom Inverter / Chargers and batteries. Alot of information can be obtained on these subjects by down loading : http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/591/docserve.aspx
They do an excellent job of explaining the operation of these phases of our sometime head aches. Jon did an excellent job with his explanations of these systems at Spearfish. I think it is beneficial to have a copy of this in writing with us for reference as problems arise or preventing them.

[dale farley]

Jon, I want to see what you have done the next time I'm around your bus.

Harry, Indeed, good info on the site.

[dale farley]

After much contemplation, reading several articles and taking your advice, I am going to change my other four batteries. I determined that my old batteries are a little over 3 years old instead of 2 1/2 as I originally thought. Your advice, every article I have read on the internet, and upon closer reading of the inverter manual, everything says don't mix old and
new batteries. I finally found some clarification that says if there is over 6 months difference in age or if the battery capacity is different, they should all be changed.

My old batteries were 1400 CA (225 AH), and the new ones are 1750 CA (250 AH). I have checked the total voltage and specific gravity in every cell two times, and all 6 batteries seem to be excellent. Two times I have left them over night with the refrigerator, lights, etc. on, and after 9 hours, they had 50% charge. I don't really know if that is good or bad.

What I do know is that if they fail in the next year, or if my inverter fails, I don't want to think it is because I didn't have all the batteries matched, so I am making them all the same. I would like to see how much longer the other 4 would last but not at the expense of causing other problems. This means, "Paulette won't be getting 6 new AGMs for Christmas."

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

Here is the ducting I mentioned. I ran across the photo last night. It is not positioned properly because I was disassembling everything to make my inverter bypass, but you can see the essence of what I have. This was a Liberty feature, not something I added.

[dale farley]

Thanks for the picture Jon.

[hhoppe]

Jon: I'm sorry but that is the most Butt Ugly duct job I've seen in my tifty five years in the Sheet Metal business. Has Roger seen that mess? He may want to look for a new Prince of Bling. Tell me, you did cherry it up a bit after that picture was taken.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Harry, First, I had partially disassembled the ducting. You can see the metal plenum that has been removed from its inverter.

Second, what you are looking at is beneath the head of our bed. It is limited space and each inverter has its own dedicated air intake ducting, and its own dedicated exhaust ducting. When everything is in place it doesn't look much better, but it works. When I reassemble my bed all of this is covered up and out of sight.

It looks better than your plumbing with all that goop on it, so what are you complaining about.:D

[truk4u]

Harry,

Notice Jon said it was under his bed! When you have to sleep that close to your inverters so the humming puts you to sleep instead of counting sheep, you have a serious problem!;)

[0533]

How much does a new 4000 watt inverter cost? How difficult is it to install, Is there any benefit to replacing the inverters to get cleaner power, better house battery charging etc before they go???

[hhoppe]

Jon: Touchy Touchy!! I just wanted to see if you can take a little ribbing as well as you dish it out. Yes the goop on my pipes is ugly and they are do for full replacement. I don't know if it will be copper that always needs shining or SS that requires less maintenence. If Liberty would have done a better plumbing job on our cheapo coach in the beginning, I would not have to replace it. I think Liberty ought to sub their plumbing out to Marathon. Maybe the hand washing faucets would wind up on the same side of the coach as the dump hose connection.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Harry,

If you don't have pretty plumbing you really need to keep the doors closed.

The key issue here is if the plumbing carries water. I have found if I don't like the way something is, I change it, so take pictures of your new plumbing project. I think it makes sense to manifold it all and have shutoffs for each fixture. Of course you may have to remove your interior to do that, but you have time, don't you?

Bruce,

You can install 10,000 watt inverters if you want. However, when you do, I know you have to increase the gauge of the wiring back to your 120VAC panel, and since you have more power available (4000 versus 2500) you will want to add more circuits handled by the inverter so you will have to change the buss bars in the CB panel.

The new inverter may have a different remote so plan on running new wiring between the inverter and its remote panel. You will have a lot of the bus apart to get access to run the other wires so that should not be a big deal.

Then you might want to add more batteries because with more inverter loads the existing batteries may not have enough capacity to get through the night without the generator starting up. That might be difficult.

Swapping inverters is the easy part.:)

[rfoster]

Truk4U: Do you think if would be fair to say that if A1 was to trade or sell his Liberty say for brand X and in doing so lost the hum of the inverters beneath his bed, that he would have to count sheep to sleep? Or is that what you said?

Do you know where he can get some sheep?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

What kind of cheap inverters are you guys running?

Mine are silent.

Jim C....it can be told now. The King traded in his old coach because the inverters under his bed were making too much noise.

[truk4u]

King,

The hum of the inverters and the soothing sound of the Lennon Sisters must do the trick, but I think a herd of sheep are in his future!;) Poor Di....

[Jon Wehrenberg]

It's the sheep that are going to have the problem. Wool makes me itch.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I'm in the Jamestown library catching up on this banter.

I don't yet know about the humming. It usually come from those that don't know the words.

Anyway I sleep at night I don't listen to humming.

If you want humming get some sheep, they make a similar sound. :p

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You still set to pick up the coach this weekend? Jim?

If it breaks down on the way back call Roger. He will tell you which switch is the burglar alarm and will shut down the coach. Not kidding.

[garyde]

Jon is correct on the idea of increasing inverter sizes. The only purpose in increasing wattage is to add load. The way these Coaches are designed, it is not an easy task and would compromise the design of the system as a whole. If the goal is to purchase a inverter with a better sign wave, then you should replace at the same or similar wattage. This may give you cleaner power, but its still going to be subject to spikes if your a/c units run off of the inverters as well as air compressors, water pumps, etc. unless they are isolated with surge protectors.

[dale farley]

Just a comparison between old (3 years) and new batteries. As a reminder, I had two bad batteries out of my six house batteries. After doing a load test (with a load-based battery tester) I determined the 4 old batteries were in excellent condition. On a 10 second test, they showed just as good as the 2 new batteries.

After replacing two of the six, I turned on the refrigerator and lights and disconnected the AC power. After 9 hours, the batteries were a little less than 50%. I got the same results two times.

I decided to change all 6 batteries so the charging would be equalized on all of them. After changing all 6 batteries, I once again ran the refrigerator and lights, and after 16 hours, the batteries were still at 70%. This was a very significant improvement.

The lesson for me in this is that even though the batteries were still "good", as could be expected, they had lost a significant portion of their load-carrying capacity. Another reason not to replace "some" of a bank of batteries without replacing "all" of them.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Just because batteries test good does not mean they retain the capacity you originally had.

It is possible if each of the old batteries was given an equalization charge of about 15.5 volts for about 8 hours they might have come back to near the new battery level of performance, but all the technical writing about batteries makes it clear that mixing old and new is going to create problems.

Excellent post Dale because reading about something is no where near as valuable as having an actual test to verify what is said.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I agree that was a way huge difference in preformance.

You had to be smiling:)