Liberty Info Please

[LarryB]

Hi, in the '95' to '99 years what is the difference between a 'Classic Lady' and an 'Elegant Lady' Liberty?

Thanks for the info in advance.

LarryB

[nrhareiner]

Depending on the exact year there were differences that might not exist in other years. However, the one of the consistent differences is that the elegant lady is 24 volt computer driven coach while the classic is a 12 volt coach without being driven by a computer. There is always a difference is trim level inside the coach. In 1997 the elegant lady had 4 cruise air units while the classic had three. However, in 1999 both had 4. What I have noticed is that some items standard on the elegant lady become standard on the classic a few years later. However the 24 vs 12 volt difference is present throughout those years.

I hope this helps.

[MangoMike]

Larry,

Kim is right about the 12v vs. 24v systems.

However, the 1997 classic that I have FOR SALE, sports 4 cruise airs.

Jon, may pipe in here as his '97 is an Elegant Lady.

Mike

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I think there may be a number of differences, but the line gets blurred because features on the Elegant are found on Classics as options.

Kim is correct about the 24 volt system. But in addition the trim level is slightly different and there are some features that have some value. For example, an Elegant Lady has a fully enclosed generator, and the Classic eliminates the door, using instead the bay door. adjacent plumbing on the Elegant Lady is polished copper which apart from bragging rights makes tank fill and dumping very easy because everything is accessible and is right there.

The Elegant Lady has 4 8D batteries, the Classic has 3. That makes a difference as to how long you can dry camp before you need to recharge. That 33% increase in capacity is important.

An Elegant Lady uses the single 270 amp 24 volt alternator. It has a charger to supplement it for maintaining a charge on the chassis batteries. The Classic uses an auxiliary 12 volt 145 amp alternator.

Then there are things that may cross over, but which are "goodies" on the Elegant Lady, and probably options on the Classic. We have multiple switch locations so we can lock and unlock bays and doors from numerous locations. Ditto with lighting. We can start and stop the generator from at least three in-house positions. We have a TV monitor for the front door located at the bed. Air pocket doors, tank level monitors in multiple locations, 4 Cruise Airs, lighting in all cabinets (very important), gray water by pass, macerator, elaborate lighting, and Vitricor.

I am sure some or all may be available on the Classic, but an Elegant Lady has a lot of bling, and a lot of really useable features that are easy to poke fun at until you get to use them. As the two coaches age I don't think the marketplace values them much different.

[jelmore]

We have a classic (also for sale for probably too much), but I've seen an Elegant Lady water and generator bay and it is stunning. I presumed the rest of the coach to also be a similar step above. Hard to imagine that I would think of our classic as ordinary.

[Petervs]

Well if an Elegant lady is a step up from a Classic lady, then if you took another step up from an Elegant Lady you would have a Marathon!

[adamdegraff]

Well if an Elegant lady is a step up from a Classic lady, then if you took another step up from an Elegant Lady you would have a Marathon!

But I agree. :D

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

What are some of the superior characteristics of the Marathon? :confused:;)

JIM

[dale farley]

Jim C., I agree with Peter and Adam about the Marathon. You would just have to own a Marathon to experience the differences.

On the other hand, if I were going to move up from a Liberty to a Marathon, I would go all the way and get a Country Coach. Same Prevost frame, nicest paint schemes on the market, simplistic yet elegant decor.

One of the managers (Paul from the main CC office) called me the other day to ensure I received a small part I had ordered and that my problem had been taken care of to my satisfaction by CC. In addition to all the other positives of CC ownership, I get to be in the same camp with the likes of Roger, Jim K., Denny, DaleJ, and Truk (just to name a few). What can be better than that???!!!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The only people that think you step up from a Liberty Elegant Lady into something else obviously have never owned a Liberty Elegant Lady.

If there is something to step up into it hasn't been built yet.

I know the King to be an honest person. I will let him render an opinion.

As to the shells being the same.......perhaps you folks can bring what you are spreading to put on my garden. Do any of you have OTR? Long range fuel? I didn't think so.

[Petervs]

Well, you should probably visit with a Marathon salesman to get their point of view. Admittedly both Liberty and Marathon are quality machines, and for a used one, perhaps the care and maintenance it has received over it's life is more important than the differences between the brands.

My opinion only, but here is why I like Marathon better:
) From my experience only, and might not apply to ALL Liberty coaches)

1. Gray and Black holding tanks, not a combined unit
2. No dump connection hanging out right in front of the drive wheels where it can get broken
3. No proprietary electronic gizmo that tries to control the generator
4. 6 House batteries, not 3 or 4
5. ALL electric, no propane
6. Glitz is more refined in my taste on the Marathon
7. Dashboard layout on the Liberty with the huge diagram of the bus looks wacky
8. They will give you a wiring diagram if you ask for one.
9. The main thing is that after 7 years of owning the Marathon I have not found one instance of them trying to cut corners on anything, they simply built the best machine they could, cost was not really an issue. Liberty might be the same ( I have not owned one) , but I have been very pleased with Marathon. They also throw in free little parts from time to time, their service is top notch ( and costly), they have a 24 hour help line. They care.

[phorner]

Interesting list of preferences...... very similar to what I like most about our Liberty:

1. Single waste tank. With grey water by-pass + macerator pump I have the ultimate flexibility in waste disposal.

2. I don't even have to think about the generator auto start. It just works.

3. The Liberty only requires 3 batteries. Significant savings at replacement.

4. All electric, no propane.

5. Glitz? Nah... ours is merely a Classic, so glitz is minimal.

6. Love the dash.... no huge diagram, and everything I need at my finger tips.

7. Haven't needed any diagrams that I haven't been able to get...

8. After only 1 year of ownership, I'm convinced that Liberty Coach quality is unsurpassed. They have supplied minor parts and made repairs at no cost, even though we are not the original owners.

9. Yeah, the sewer connection could have been better placed, but I only have to deal with it once when we hook up and from that point on, I can dump, from either side or through the macerator, from the comfort and convenience of the coach.

[dalej]

This is a fine subject to discuss right before a rally, were all going to be mad at each other! :)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

All good points Peter, but most reflect personal taste.

I have had both separate and combined tanks, and with the gray water bypass feature I now have it makes no difference to me.

My sewer connection is where you say, but I doubt if it hangs more than 1/2" below the bottom of a bay door. It's an academic point however because the newer Liberty's now have a very clever sewer connection configuration that allows for a couple of connection directions, bottom or side. Personally I like the connection outside the coach.

Proprietary generator start devices are what everybody has. Yours was just not made by Marathon, whereas mine was designed by Liberty. I can remove it and still start my generator however.

6 batteries would be nice, but so would 300 gallons of fresh water and an equal size holding tank. My batteries allow me to dry camp all night and the batteries are sill OK to make coffee and watch a little TV. I have four however and six would be better. But I won't give up my OTR just to get room for the batteries.

My coach is all electric.

Glitz???????? I prefer you use the word bling, whorehouse, bordello, etc. You have to admit since the turn of the century the decor has shifted to a new level, both very tasteful, and one that makes other coach interiors seem institutional by comparison. Fortunately beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

The dash may not have been designed by anybody with a degree in Industrial Design, it is functional, informational, and unlike other conversions it is not proprietary. It works and although the bus graphic is not my favorite part of the dash it does display a lot of the house functions at a glance.

I have wiring diagrams and wire colors, gauges, numbers and descriptions for my entire coach conversion. I didn't ask for one. It came with the Liberty owner's manual. It does not include proprietary designs because so many converters have stolen features from Liberty I suspect Liberty chooses to not provide them with any more engineering data.

Ditto on the quality of the conversion. Since Liberty support is unparalleled I would say that all others strive to meet that standard.

The short version of this discussion is that as customers I'll bet both of us are driving top of the line conversions, and I for one use Liberty as the standard by which I measure all other companies that I deal with. There is none so far that has risen to that level.

[jelmore]

We looked at a Marathon before deciding on a Liberty. Could in no way see the $100,000 difference between what Marathon was asking (for a 1997!) and what we were able to get ours for. Maybe it would have been a $50,000 difference? Their styling is very, very nice, but I couldn't imagine the washer/dryer being in the galley (maybe fold clothes on the dinette?). Our Liberty has a stacked unit in the dressing area and that was a deciding point. I couldn't imagine separate black and gray tanks (done that). Did the Marathon have manual valves? Surely not, but the combined tank was a deciding factor. The Cruise Airs vs. roof airs, another deciding factor. The over the road air a deciding factor, and it has certainly proven itself over the last year on the road. Weight distribution, another factor. The proprietary generator control has been perfect. There is no propane on our Liberty. Our dashboard layout is quite nice (see http://2000liberty.info). Our books include a complete wiring table for all circuits, 12V, 120V and coax, with clear location descriptions. All wires are numbered on both ends and very easy to find. While Liberty has been helpful when I've called (well, depends on who you talk to), the only Liberty part I've had to replace is the lit stairwell hand rail. I will certainly agree that the dump connection is odd and they could have done that better. The only problem I've found is that it is lower than some connections we have to hook up to. I'd really like 6 house batteries instead of 3, but we get by. This is my experience, living in a Liberty every day for more than a year and traveling a thousand miles a month. I'd say Liberty's done a fine job. Everything that's theirs has held up quite well.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale, I doubt if anybody is going to be mad at anybody else. Instead I think the converters should be proud that their customers think so highly of the product that they are willing to debate and discuss them.

I wouldn't waste my breath trying to tell people how pleased I am with one of my cars, but both the shell and the conversion and the support I get are so good it is worth discussing.

[dale farley]

I think we all agree that regardless what converter we have, owning a Prevost is a great experience in itself, and their quality is unmatched by any other frame on the road. There are many small and some significantdifferences between converters, but in the end, it comes down to what satisfies our personal taste and what we can afford at the time of purchase. If someone else was paying the bill, I might go for a 5-slide Liberthon with some of the improvements added by other converters.

[Ray Davis]

I think a lot of it is the experience we have with our converter when trouble arises. In my particular case, I was so mad at Country Coach. I begged to get in for service, and they couldn't get me in for 6 months. Ultimately I got my issues solved by flying one of their techs down to CA on my own dollar on a weekend.

Anyway, it soured me enough that I wouldn't even look at a CC when shopping for these last two buses. It's sad, because I'm relatively certain that CC makes a nice coach. I've been in several. Both Mike and Ken (local guys) had CC coaches and were/are happy with them.

Obviously, Dale had a much better experience with service than I did. (Glad to hear it!).

Marathon has bent over backwards to treat me right, especially with the new coach I'm buying. I'm sure that Liberty is the same, just they aren't as convenient for us west coast guys, in terms of getting there for service.

Ray

[LarryB]

Dale I really didn't intend to start a converter war. Just wanted the difference between Classic and Elegant Lady Libertys. I like the friendly bantering and I think I even got a good feel for the difference between the two models.

Thanks for all the opinions and I would like to come back with more questions as they arise.

Larry

[truk4u]

Here's my take on the Converter opinion...

Country Coach - I've had 3, two plastic and the current Bus. Factory support is non-existent, especially for the older buses, mine included. The price was right and it has lots of features I really like, but I know, I'm on my own. I know I can drive 500 miles south to Parliament for issues I can't handle myself and I knew this going into the deal. John the Flydude knows these CC's well and has been a big help. We have experienced the 391 wire nightmare.:eek:

Marathon - Customer service was fantastic while I owned my 97. My beef is they refuse to support or even acknowledge POG and could care less. Look at the number of Marathon buyers over the last few years, many the result of the POG/Stuff forum. In my opinion, they are arrogant.

Liberty - First class customer support and product and they value and support POG. It's nice to shake hands and talk to the converters in person at our Rallies and they go out of their way to help Liberty owners regardless of the vintage of the bus.

Parliament - Ken and the gang have out done themselves supporting POG and the members and are never too busy if someone needs help. There aren't as many Parliament owners in the group, but I'm sure their support is second to none. Anyone looking for a bus should consider Parliament.

There are other converters with great products that also support POG, but I am only experienced with the above.

This thread should piss off Jdub, you know how he hates it when the thread never ends.:D

[MangoMike]

Anyone who would like a side by side comparison is invited down to my bus barn in Alexandria, Va.

Bring cash.


mm

[Steve Bennett]

Boy, this is like the old Chevy VS Ford debate. I own a Marathon, but have been involved with Marathon, Liberty, Vantare/Featherlite, Country Coach, Angola, Vision, Royale, Legendary, Thompson Coach, Parliament, Pacific, American Carriage, American Coach, & Millennium. I think in most people's opinion Marathon, and Liberty are the 2 premier volume converters. Both build excellent coaches, and offer very good customer support. I think what ever converter one decides on, you need to find a coach that is the best compromise for your given taste, budget, and use. There is no such thing as the perfect coach. These machines are to complex a varied to ever be perfect. Even people without a budget, designing their own coach from scratch will have compromises. I will give a short PERSONAL opinion of each coach. These are my opinions, and my opinions only.

Marathon: Great customer support, excellent fit & finish, largest service network, perhaps a little less flash than Liberty. Tech-Link (95 & newer coaches) is proprietary, and can be challenging to repair. Typically do not have OTR A/C. Excellent resale.

Liberty: Great customer support, excellent fit & finish, best adherence to weight & balance. 2 choices with the Lady Classic (simple to maintain & operate, very reliable) Elegant Lady ( just that, very elegant, some may feel over the top, and more complex) Typically equipped with OTR A/C & Long range fuel. Also excellent resale.

Country Coach: Great styling & finishes, good fit & finish, proprietary circuit boards & wiring that can be challenging to repair. Converter built OTR on older coaches can be expensive to maintain. Only average support, poor on older conversions do to heavy work force turn over. Fair resale.

Vantare/Featherlite: Good fit & finish, one of the first w/slides & can be a great value. Simple systems, Vitracor can crack & be expensive to repair, reasonable support, currently they have a dealer network that may help maintenance. Reasonable resale.

American Carriage: One of the nicest coaches out there. Unfortunately Mark closed down this last winter. Very custom, excellent build quality, fair resale do to now being an orphan.

Millennium: Good fit & finish, plus very light weight. Early coaches had some challenges do to very innovative features (roof top genset radiator, big engine driven generator). Small company with very accessible owners. The company appears to be very conservative financially, that should keep them in business for a long time. Fair resale.

Royale: Average fit & finish, many like the wood interiors. Good reliable systems, reasonable resale because of the warmth of their interiors. The wood cabinetry also does not fall out of style as quickly as some of the unusual laminates. Still limited support from Monaco.

Legendary: Kind of a flash in the pan story. A nice conversion that can be a tremendous value for a buyer that does not place as much importance on customer support.

Thompson Coach: Rick Thompson is a great guy, and builds an exceptional electrical system in his coaches. Average fit & finish, fair resale, the ability to really customize, and a terrific value.

Many of the other converters build excellent products. Typically the value will be higher on a coach that still has factory support.

[lewpopp]

You failed to mention Parliament. Wazamatter wid you. Are u the master expert?

[garyde]

You guys don't have anything better to do? This conversation Loops every three months. The biggest difference is the character behind the steering wheel!