Country Coach control board Needed .... [Archive]

Ray Davis

06-14-2006, 10:17 PM

I dropped my coach off at Prevost Mira Loma last week to have air conditioning checked before I head out on a couple of different trips. At that time I was there I asked that they also check the jake brake.

They found a control board issue which prevents the OTR air from working when the key is turned on. While checking back in the engine area for the jake, they noticed some sparking of wires, and brake lines that were almost worn through from these wires (why this wasn't caught on an inspection last January is another mystery).

Anyway, I've been out of town, getting partial reports from the service people, and today I learn that the main control board, the one which controls jake brake, cruise control transmission etc, may be in needed of repair/replacement, however CC doesn't have any of these boards. It's probably going to be remove my board, and send it back for repair. In the meantime, I'm scheduled out this Saturday for 1 week, back one week, and then gone for 8. Not much time in there to pull out a control board, and not have a moving bus.

On to my question. Does anyone have a spare Country Coach control board, the one which controls jake etc? This is a 93 Vintage CC. I'd be happy to purchase one, purchase now-replace later, whatever might work. I'm just concerned that weeks of planning that cannot be easily changed might be in jeapardy.

Unfortunately, I don't know the number of the board but will tomorrow when I go out to Prevost in the morning.

I hope someone here may be able to help out.

Thanks in advance,
Ray

Ray Davis

06-15-2006, 12:40 AM

Sorry, this probably should have been in the Want/Need Parts forum. Moderator, please move as you see fit.

ray

Jon Wehrenberg

06-15-2006, 08:12 AM

Ray,

Are you sure the board you need is a CC part?

The things you described are typically Prevost systems, assuming the OTR air is the Prevost system and not a CC installed system.

Also, I may be wrong so verify this, but the OTR air and the Jake are two distinct systems that have no common point such as a control board that I am aware of regardless of whether the AC is Prevost or CC.

This is a comment to all: Nobody will do an underside coach inspection as good as necessary because they don't own the coach and they and their families do not ride in the coach. Anytime you get an opportunity to look under your coach, whether you intend to work on it or not, look, feel and listen. Look for wet spots or leaks, listen for air, look for things rubbing or pinched or loose, and feel around for all of the above if you cannot see in a given area.

If you are able to inspect your undercoach side and a mechanic is available do not hesitate to ask questions.

Ray....at POGII we will cover your entire brake system and you will totally understand it. We have an "operating" brake set up.

truk4u

06-15-2006, 08:44 AM

Ray,

I believe Bill & Jody have about the same vintage CC as yours, maybe Bill can shed some light on what your up against. They haven't posted in awhile, but hopefully they still have internet access. If you can get the part number, try to google the information and you might get lucky. If you can get Doug Rutherford on the phone at CC and explain your situation, he is usually real good about going the extra mile to help out and maybe can point you to the original control board vendor. It does sound more like a Prevost setup than CC.:rolleyes:

mike kerley

06-15-2006, 10:06 AM

Ray, I believe we have the same year CC (93). I have two spare cards, but been awhile since i've looked at them. I'll do so today and let you know if I can loan you one until yours is repaired. I'm not sure which cards I have spares of.

It will depend on whats wrong with the card as the need to replace or send it back to the factory. If its just a component failure and its obvious (black item with burnt smell or bad relay) you may be able to locate a local technician to repair it for you. If the circuit card is burnt or heavily damaged, a different story. Its possible to build new cards, but costly without a good template to work from.

Again, I'll check on what I have available.

Yes, this is a Country Coach item. State of the art in 93 and used up till 2002, I believe.

Buddy Gregg in Lakeland (when he was in Lakeland) had a technician working for him that worked on the design team at CC during those years and was very familiar with the cards. In fact his iniatials are on some of the schematics as the "artist"/designer. Cant think of his name, but he may have moved to Knoxville Tn. and still be with Buddy. I'll see what i can find on him.

Mike

Jerry Winchester

06-15-2006, 11:11 AM

Ray / Mike,

And these are CC boards? I was thinking like Jon that they sounded like Prevost parts as I can't see CC building anything that would interfere / interface with a coach system or function.

However, if they are Prevost parts and the board is common to them, you can use mine if you can get yours fixed before mid July when I need to use my coach.

Ray Davis

06-15-2006, 06:31 PM

Made it out to Prevost today to check the state of "repairs". Definately saw some of the issues. This coach is suppose to have an over-the-road air system, but not the Prevost system. Something which I believe is called a Frigi-cool OTR. The tech showed me where when the ignition key was off, the fans in the back and bedroom kicked in as expected. The second the ignition key was turned on, the switch lights went off, and the fans ceased to function.

Voice alarm system works, but seems to repeat every 20 seconds. CC seems to think this is a timer relay that has gone south.

Cruise control is stuck in resume mode. (I found it to be intermittent), and although jake buttons light up, there is no indication when the diagnostic terminal is plugged in that the jake is operational. This confirms what I've suspected, as I haven't been able to "tell" when I press the jake brake. No increase in pyro temps when jake is in use, as several had mentioned would happen.

All in all, it turns out that the CC people say there are several boards which need to be inspected/repaired. I'm trying to work an appointment where my neighbor will drive from CA to OR for me next week. But, CC says they are booked up until September with repairs! So, I'm waiting to hear from the bus-conversion manager, Doug Wheeler for approval to schedule an early appointment.

And if that weren't bad enough, when I got ready to take the coach from Prevost today to finally get tires, the front of the coach wouldn't stay up. Using the manual controls it would go up, but sink down when put on drive mode. After 3 hours of trouble shooting, air lines were found to have some kind of oily residue in them, from who knows where! This was working fine before I took the coach in.

Jeesh! I'm not looking forward to seeing this repair bill. And I'm supposed to be leaving for Salt Lake City on Saturday morning. :o

Ray

ps: I'm hoping to make it to POG2, however vacation time is a real issue this year.

Just Plain Jeff

06-15-2006, 07:33 PM

Ray, I am sitting here almost 4000 miles away and know that you gotta be pretty frustrated by now. I have been thinking about how to help you and have a suggestion.

Here it is: Call Lester Burgess at Ken Robertson RV Center in Lakeland, FL, and 'buy' an hour of his time if you have to. Lester has extensive experience with West Coast and East Coast converters, facilities, systems, etc. He was all over POG I, and is a very helpful guy in general. Perhaps he can help you narrow down some of the things that are happening so that you can get on the road and have some fun.

Being mindful that he is on EDT, his personal cell number is, (got a pencil everyone) 863-581-9414. I just spoke with him and he suggested that if you call him at 5:30 pm EDT, he will do his best to help you out.

BTW: POGI attendees: Lester says hi to everybody! (He did complain a bit about the heat, however).

Jerry Winchester

06-15-2006, 07:49 PM

Ray,

I hope you can keep up with this because it is making me dizzy. Not to grind this into grist but there are a couple of things amiss. Or maybe I am off base.

The Jacobs engine compression brake on the 8V92 functions by basically turning the engine into a giant air compressor while at the same time "shorting" the fuel injector so no fuel is injected during the power cycle.

The effect should be that the pyro temps drop substantially while the brake is in effect. Additionally the brake function should operate when you let off the throttle, not push on the service brake.

I would also suspect that the cruise is a function of the DDEC system, so that must be the reader you mention. Did they say what the issue was?

Sorry you are having a rough time, but every trip to Prevost costs me about $5000, so maybe you weren't to the minimum yet :eek:

Ray Davis

06-15-2006, 08:16 PM

so maybe you weren't to the minimum yet
Maybe that is the whole issue! :eek:

I think I can summarize (hopefully I am correct). The Country Coach switches (throughout the whole coach) are all tied into logic boards in the first bay. They do not directly switch lights, or anything else. I guess the same is true of the cruise control, and jake brake etc. They go through the logic boards, and then the "proper" signal is sent off to the device that is supposed to be controlled. (jake, cruise control etc)

Evidently, according to the Prevost tech, they should be able to read the state of the jake and cruise control switches via the DDEC diagnostic port? That's what he told me. He indicated when they put the computer on the port, that it indicated my cruise control was stuck in resume mode, AND that although the jake lights were showing proper function in the cockpit, it wasn't registering on their reader.

Perhaps the Prevost tech is confused on this? For sure we can see the cruise control issue, because if you hit the "on" button, almost immediately you get an engine fault light. Occassionally I found if I hit the cruise on button, and immediately hit "set" then, the cruise control would engage without an error light.

I don't know, perhaps because he could "read" about the cruise control at the DDEC port, that he assumed he should see some indication of jake operation?

MangoMike

06-15-2006, 08:43 PM

Ray,

Lester worked on some issues on my bus and really had an in depth knowlegde of a lot of systems. Worth the call.

http://www.prevoman.com/Pages/POGPolk/IMG_1938.jpg

Mike

Jon Wehrenberg

06-15-2006, 08:50 PM

Ray,

The more you post the more confusing this gets because in my coaches there is a house and there is a bus, and the two only interface at very few points. For CC to use their own custom boards to control things like a jake and cruise seems well out of the ordinary.

My coach has PLCs that funtion like your board to control the coach, but they have zero applicability to the Prevost systems.

If you want to talk to the guy that is alleged to know the CC boards try Buddy Gregg's Organization at 800-421-0031.

I also suggest you learn as much about your coach as possible for several reasons. First you will know who to go to for help. Second, you will be less likely led by the nose when it comes to repairs and paying for them, and last, you will learn there are a lot of things you can do when stuff goes bad and you will not have your wallet emptied on a regular basis. Trust me, what you will learn at POGII will be worth the time.

Ray Davis

06-15-2006, 09:11 PM

My coach has PLCs that funtion like your board to control the coach, but they have zero applicability to the Prevost systems.

Jon, I would have expected the same. I wouldn't have throught that CC would insert logic in between the switches and the bus controls. But, today when I spoke with a technician at CC in Oregon, when I reiterated the problems my Prevost tech was seeing, including the jake, he indicated to me that he could "bypass the CC controls, and wire things such that the jake switches worked direct, rather than through the CC logic". In the next breath he told me that he felt the job to actually FIX the boards was 1 to 2 day job, easily done.

In all fairness to the Prevost guys, they are really working hard to solve this, unfortunately with a system that has been evidently modified by CC, and no schematics, and limited telephone support for help from CC.

I also suggest you learn as much about your coach as possible for several reasons. Amen to that ... :)

Ray Davis

06-15-2006, 09:15 PM

PS: Thanks for the phone numbers. I'll try to contact Lester tomorrow. I'll also post a call to Buddy Gregg's

Just Plain Jeff

06-15-2006, 09:19 PM

This isn't going to be directly helpful, but here goes; various converters integrate their conversion into the shell at different levels; that is, the Angolas, for the most part were simply built on top of the the shell and it was pretty easy to figure out what side of the the coach a problem sat; either house or chassis.

A 92 CC that I was familiar with had its own OTR system which had a York compressor and an integrated electronics system on the aft panel of the front bay. It seemed that they had done a parallel construction of many of the electronic control systems similar to what they do on their plastic coaches. So in a sense, they were doing the high end conversion on a Prevost shell, based on their good experience with high end motorhomes.

I also had direct experience with a Foretravel where everything electronic in the engine and Jake went through the King Cruise Control. If that puppy went down, you were off the road.

Something to think about anyway. Gosh I wish I could be more helpful.

Ray Davis

06-16-2006, 01:20 AM

The effect should be that the pyro temps drop substantially while the brake is in effect.

I had just gone back to two threads on the prevost-stuff site. The indication there was that without jake, while heading downhill, the pyro temps will go down substantially. But, if the jake was engaged in low one side would raise to 300-400 degrees, and that if high was engaged both sides would go up to 300-400?

Am I misreading one of the posts?

Jon Wehrenberg

06-16-2006, 07:59 AM

Ray, you are correct.

When the jake is disengaged while coasting the pyros go to the bottom of the scale.

When the jake is engaged "low", one pyrometer will show a temperature and the other will be at the bottom of the scale. The jake when set at "high" will show a temperature on both pyros.

The temperature you see on the pyro gauges as a result of the jake being engaged is the hot compressed air being dumped into the exhaust manifold and is not the heat of combustion. Good catch.

Ray Davis

06-16-2006, 11:09 AM

Thanks for the clarification, Jon.

Jerry Winchester

06-16-2006, 11:42 AM

Someone is going to have to convince me on this one.

Riddle me this Batman;

If the engine is in a normal "idle' position whilst downshifted, is it not still burning fuel and such there is exhaust temperature related to the combustion taking place? Combustion equals heat equals some readable EGT?

If the engine is in a similar position with no fuel being injected into the cylinder, then what is the heat value of compressed air with no combustion components added? I have to think it is less than the above scenario? And if that is the case, isn't the EGT equal to the compressed air temperature less any losses due to heat transfer from the head to the location of the thermocouple that reads EGT?

Now I will admit that I haven't sat down and worked thru this as a thermodynamic problem, but at face value it doesn't make sense to me. But I have assumed incorrectly before. :o

Jon Wehrenberg

06-16-2006, 04:53 PM

If my interpretation of the pyros is wrong I hope someone will step in and slap me because I am going by memory here.

Under normal cruise conditions the pyros show the exhaust gas temperature at the exhaust manifold. They are reflecting the heat of combustion.

As soon as we decide to lift our foot from the gas pedal, the DDEC or diesel control reduces or eliminates the fuel delivery and the pyros go to the bottom of the scale. There is heat of combustion with the bus at idle but it is lower than the bottom of the pyro scale.

Now lets apply the jake brake. Under normal cruise conditions it is not working so the pyros show the normal heat of combustion. But when the foot is lifted from the gas pedal fuel delivery stops or is reduced and there is no longer combustion, and because of torque converter lock-up the bus momentum is now driving the engine rather than the other way around.

But the jake is engaged, so while the coach is driving the engine, the pyros show heat in the exhaust manifold. That heat is the heat developed, not from combustion, but from the compression of the piston stroke. And since the jake dumps that compressed air into the exhaust, rather than allow that stored energy to push the piston back down the cylinder, the engine has turned into a compressor, driven by the bus, with the compressed air going into the exhaust making a sweet sound, and increasing the manifold temperatures.

For those lucky enough to have a jake you probably have noticed that it works most effectively when the RPMs are high, and thus it is working the hardest providing the most resistance to the coach trying to push the engine, and the jake drops out at 15 or 20 MPH so the bus will not stall.

I should add that the reaon a diesel engine has combustion is because the compressed air is so hot it is capable of igniting diesel fuel injected into it.

Jerry Winchester

06-16-2006, 05:50 PM

Jon,

I think we are at the same spot except for the part where EGT is higher from compressed air rather than from combustion. I don't think this is thermodynamically possible.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/diesel-two-stroke.gif

If this is the illustration of the power stroke and allowing for expansion of the gas of combustion vs the same thing happening less the fuel and said gas, the heat generated by combustion is obviously higher than that of compression (although the air is heated past the auto-ignition temperature of the fuel). I just don't understand why the heat would be higher rather than lower?

And I am not trying to be a pain in the Lew, it just intuitively doesn't seem that way (to me). But I reserve the right to be wrong. :)

Just Plain Jeff

06-16-2006, 08:02 PM

Just friction.

Jon Wehrenberg

06-16-2006, 08:50 PM

JDUB,

It relates to the volume of gases entering the exhaust manifold.

I presume you accept the fact that at idle, there is no temperature registered on the pyros.

Because you posted it earlier the jake when employed causes the virtual cessation of fuel flow.

So from the above we know an idling engine will not have an exhaust gas flow sufficiently hot in a volume necessary to register on the pyros, but we know an engine at higher RPM, without combustion (none can take place with the jake engaged) will register, and therefore the temperature rise can only be attributed to the heat of compression.

Now can we agree?

Jerry Winchester

06-16-2006, 09:46 PM

Well almost. I am saying that there is enough temperature to register when idling, it is most likely that the pyro is showing it and nobody notices it or that the pyro lacks sufficient resolution to account for it properly.

But what I am saying is that if you were going down a hill with the Jake brake off, the EGT would be higher than with the Jake brake operating. If I were not 8 hours in any direction from a decent hill I would test it and note the temps but we can table the discussion until Santa Fe and resume with empirical data.

Jon Wehrenberg

06-17-2006, 07:12 AM

Old timer's disease at work here.

My pyros, with the jake off and my foot off the gas pedal, coasting down a hill, would drop to the bottom of the scale.

Same situation, but with the jake on the low setting, one needle would be down the bottom of the scale and the pyro on the side the jake was functioning would be up around 300 (if my brain isn't yet fried from all the bling I am installing).

What am I missing in your understanding of this?

Ray Davis

06-19-2006, 09:31 PM

Well, to end the thread sorta where it started, I am now officially on my first trip. I'm in Salt Lake City at KOA (nice place), but definately had no jake brake at all. Had a few good downhills from CA through Utah, but would slow to about 40, downshift to 3rd, and that would hold couple of fairly steep downgrades.

Definately don't want to do this forever. The tech at Country Coach last week indicated they could wire the jake to bypass the CC control boards, and I think I'm going to call them tomorrow about that.

They cannot see me up in Oregon until September, if I make an appointment right now. I even spoke with the bus-conversion service manager, but he wouldn't/couldn't get me in earlier. He did indicate if I got the control boards up to him that they would repair them in a matter of a few days.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure whether or not things are actually worse on the coach, after Prevost attempted to fix the air conditioner and jake issue. Several things which used to work are no longer functional, and a couple of things seem magically healed.

I still haven't called the people mentioned earlier in the thread, but may do so tomorrow. Main energy was getting here in open piece. Wife is taking training this week while I stay in the bus, and work remotely.

Anyway, the bus ran great and got here smoothly, and in the end result, that's what I was hoping for. I'll get these control board issues figured out with time.

Ray

MangoMike

06-19-2006, 10:52 PM

Ray,

I know how exciting that first trip is - congratulations. Hopefully you'll get the rest of the bugs out and put this behind you and add many miles down the road.

Mike

mike kerley

06-20-2006, 09:41 AM

Ray, Sorry I'm so slow on the response. I just located my two spare cards for our 93 CC. One is a "dimmer card" used in the lighting circuits and the other is a controller for the locks and lights. No help to you.

Some of your strange happenings may be caused by dirty contacts on the card sockets or the cables on the rear of the panel that the cards plug into. On ours, there are numerous large mollex style connectors just overhead the panel (which will swing out for access to the rear, if you haven't done that yet) and I've had to pull some of these connectors apart, clean them and push them back together. I've pulled all of the cards and cleaned the sockets they seat in as my "electronics compartment" as I call it was pretty dusty. Locate a good quality electrical contact cleaner that is safe for all plastics and pull each card (suggest you power down the coach first) and clean the socket and the fingers on the card. Best to do this one card at a time so as not to confuse which card came from which slot.

The large plastic connectors will "slide apart" as well as unplug (male and female). This allows you to pull one pair of wires and reassemble the connector without the questionable wire. Again, be careful not to mix up the wires. Don't let the smoke out!

If you don't have a layout of your coach showing which card does what and what slot is wired for which function, check with CC for a copy from there files. They should have that on file and it seems all coaches are different. These documents will also identify which wire number goes where and what function it performs. Very important information to have. Those wire numbers have saved me a lot of time troubleshooting problems.

Enjoy your trip. Life on the road in a Prevost is the best!

Ray Davis

06-20-2006, 07:20 PM

Thanks for the note Mike. Country Coach actually called me today. I guess they are back from the rally, and are trying at least to give me some guidance on what's going on.

They had me get into the mother board box (first bay), and check a relay there. It turns out I have the wrong power coming down to the main relay which switches a lot of the electronics, so many things are going on when they should be off, and off when they should be on.

He then had me open the lower door on drivers side (where the washer fluid is), and he believes the mother board in there might be wired wrong. Unfortunately, it's a bear to get to, and it appears that perhaps someone directly soldered some of the connections here, instead of being attached to connectors.

But, they believe this inverted signal is also at the root of my jake break. They indicated the jake break switching only happens when the ignition is on, and since mine is working inverted, I have no jake. it would be sure nice to get this going correctly!

But, it sounds like we may be onto something.