lousy service at prevost mira loma

[charlie]

my first time to post. was in for some service at mirrow loma. the job was simple i thought.put in three windows. job was terrible at best. could not redo at time glue wet. so had to take bus back again. so they wanted to charge a second time for same job. they broke two windows taking them out.this is second time this has happened to us at 100.00 an hour we deserve better than this.2000 country h3:mad:

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Welcome to the group Charlie but sorry about your luck.

You have learned first hand why the folks around here value POG to the extent we do.

I know we have a sponsor out there on the left cost that many have spoken highly about. California Coach and Steve Bennett. I'll bet you leave his place happier.

[merle&louise]

Charlie,

Welcome to POG, sorry that you had a bad experience at Prevost Mira Loma.:( If you don't mind me asking, how did the 3 windows break? Did they shatter like the ones on the XL IIs or were they broken another way?(rocks, vandals, etc.)

Thanks for your post, if you could please post some pictures of your H3.

How long have you owned your bus and how do you like it so far?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

What part of the window gets glue:confused:

[garyde]

Hi Charlie. There has been mixed reviews on Mira Loma lately. One of the big issues is billing. You should speak with the management regarding your bill, and if that does'nt work , go up the list of management until you get someone to listen. You should not be billed for the second install if they installed the windows incorrectly.

[mikedee]

Charlie,

Welcome to POG. Glad to have you with the group.

So sorry to hear about your experience with Mira Loma. We have all of our service done there, including window replacement of which we have had a total of 5 done in the past. We always ask for "OUR" service tech, Tony. He's young, but well versed in how repairs need to be done. Arthur has also replaced our windows.

We had a problem with billing once when we had a window mechanism replaced and it broke for the second time in less than a month. I wrote them and explained that it was a defective part or incorrect installation. They agreed and reversed the charge. Talk with Dee, the service writer, and see what you get. If not happy then I agree with Garyde, going to upper management is in order. Good luck. :)

Dee

[Ray Davis]

I missed this thread while on vacation, and just happened upon it today.

We are hearing more and more about lousy service at Prevost in Mira Loma. A friend of mine works for MCI Coach in Los Alamitos and passed on their service managers email and contact info.

I did contact MCI, and they would love to get some of our maintenance business. Admittedly, I'd rather use Prevost if all things were equal, but given the recent bad experiences (ask Steve Bennett), I'm considering using MCI for at least regular service stuff.

I would venture, that they could have handled putting in windows as well.

If you'd like, I will be happy to pass on the contact info for MCI. Like I said, they are in Los Alamitos, right near Long Beach. Not sure if that is further away for you or not.


Ray

[Coloradobus]

Hi Ray, Yes we would like to know the info about service at the MCI shop

[Ray Davis]

Robert S. Guzman
Service Advisor
Robert.Guzman@MCICOACH.COM
Phone (714) 484-4840
Fax (502) 318-8352
www.mcicoach.com

Also spoke with
Dave Martinez
General Manager, Los Alamitos Service Center
David.Martinez@mcicoach.com
Pnone (714) 484-4816

You might mention me when speaking with either. I had arranged for service, and made all the contacts, but then I had the bus fire, and had to bow out.

Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I see no problem with MCI or any shop that routinely works on vehicles comparable to our coaches, including truck repair shops or charter bus companies.

Oil changes, lube jobs, fluid level checks, hub seals, brake work, bearing replacement, and air bag replacement are all jobs any experienced mechanic can do. I do not know if the OTR AC or even driver's AC is something I would take to any repair facility besides Prevost or a commercial refrigeration repair company.

But I would never take a bus with the leans and expect a mechanic not schooled in the Prevost level low system to be able to diagnose the cause and repair the bus.

I also would be very cautious about having a company not familiar with conversions to do other than basic electrical work on the chassis. There is nothing in our coaches (with the possible exception of multi-plex coaches) really complex or sophisticated, but some of our systems require a basic understanding. Lacking that understanding a mechanic has the potential to screw things up, or extract large bundles of cash from the wallet.

Very little of what I have run into on our buses is anywhere near as complex as the average car and its systems. But without an understanding of how the systems work, or the logic built into them you could either be paying for a mechanic's on the job training, or the mechanic can be replacing parts that have nothing to do with the problem. It is no longer sufficient to know what you don't know, you must also recognize what the mechanic does not know.

[phorner]

Like an HMO to take care of the health of our bodies, we could use a PMO (Prevost Maintenance Organization) to take care of our buses.

Any possibility of a co-op type of organization where "members" pay annual or monthly fees to participate in the program?

Could we benefit by the power of collective purchases and technicians that were skilled and could be trusted? Are we a large enough group to accomplish such an endeavor or do we have such an attrition rate that it wouldn't be beneficial?

Just kicking around some ideas....

[Sid Tuls]

I've been to Prevost Mira Loma 3 different times for warranty work and they were outstanding in their work and getting me scheduled to have it worked on. I would say if you have a problem I would bring it to their attention.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul's idea of a Prevost HMO has some merit and could be easily done.

There are routine tasks that should be done to a schedule based on mileage, and some based on calendar time. If an owner would bring his coach in for service at the same time annually I would think that he would have a predictable amount of money to spend at the annual event, and only needed to spend money for the short term service such as a lube or oil change in between.

For example, brake chambers, air bags, coolant changes etc could be put on a calendar schedule. Fluids and filters would be the intermediate tasks.

Where the problems will creep in is when something beyond the scope of preventive maintenance occurs. What happens if the coach starts to lean after its annual service? What if the bay door locks quit working? How will problems with the conversion be handled? A facility that has Marathon expertise may not be able to trouble shoot a problem with a CC.

From experience I know maintenance is ongoing. Once I zeroed out my coach and replaced every filter, every drop of fluid, all brake chambers, all air bags and all Norgrens for example my maintenance requirements did not stop. All I ended up with was a new starting point and now all service is staggered because of varying service intervals for the various tasks. And even in between oil changes or lube jobs I still have a list of little things such as a bad coil on a solenoid valve or a pesky satellite to address.

I know from past experience it is imperitive for me to never let a small problem go unaddressed. When that happens the little things mount up, and some little things turn into serious issues if they are not fixed. The best example I can give is aux air system leaks. When the compressor starts running every 18 hours instead of every 24 hours you know there is a leak. But when that is ignored and the compressor starts cycling evey 10 hours, then 6 hours then every four hours then every five minutes you are in a world of hurt because you have no clue whether you have one big leak or 10 smaller ones. Hours upon hours can be spent chasing that problem and if you are paying someone to do that it can run into thousands of dollars.

The same applies to the leans. Ignore the first sign of the leans and from that point on as they worsen you really don't know if you are after one leak that is getting bigger or more than one.

So an HMO for buses all of a sudden takes on a rather complex shape. Does an owner come in for every little problem ASAP, or are they to accumulate and become part of an annual preventive maintenance schedule? Who works on the house? What about stuff that has the need to be done by Prevost such as rebuilding a slide, replacing a seal or dealing with some of the more serious problems?

What we need is for Prevost to revert back to the Prevost of old. Today Prevost is hit and miss. Some work they have been doing according to folks in POG is exceptional. Some according to POG members not only sucks, but is too expensive. It sounds to me like an owner that does not have a personal knowledge and relationship with one of the more qualified techs is gambling with his money and his coach. The work should be first class and at a reasonable price, but as has been posted in some cases the owner is paying for on the job training and the results are often unsatisfactory, which prompts this whole discussion in the first place.

How do owners that do not want to do their own work want an HMO to work? I do know the more proactive the maintenance schedule is, the less surprises, but in no way can anyone expect to go for months or even a year without service requirements.

[JIM KELLER]

Like an HMO to take care of the health of our bodies, we could use a PMO (Prevost Maintenance Organization) to take care of our buses.

Any possibility of a co-op type of organization where "members" pay annual or monthly fees to participate in the program?

Could we benefit by the power of collective purchases and technicians that were skilled and could be trusted? Are we a large enough group to accomplish such an endeavor or do we have such an attrition rate that it wouldn't be beneficial?

Just kicking around some ideas....

Paul, I say we move Joe down into Tenn. somewhere near Jon. They open a facility and hire Jim C. for detail accounting and record keeping/research !

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I suspect Jim is only partly kidding. I am sure that within this group there resides enough talent and ability to tackle almost any problem on almost any bus beyond DD or Allison major repairs.

The problem however is logistical. We are national in scope. So instead of moving Joe to TN, We need a traveling road crew that starts somewhere in NJ and travel southward and then upon covering Florida continues westward along the gulf, through TX and the southwest, eventually reaching the CA coast and traveling northward from there.

The road crew then dead heads across most of the northern tier stopping at the members in NE, IL, OH, etc until reaching the east coast and starting over.

Any time an owner needs to travel for service such as I had to when we were in western NY, it eats up time and money. I had a one way distance of 400 miles to Prevost in NJ or 500 miles westward to Chicago for Liberty. At todays costs those are some hefty expenses before any service is performed and almost unjustified if the work is not done correctly and a return trip is required.

I vote for a traveling road crew.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I know we will be bouncing around Florida the entire month of January and I know that is a popular location for many that time of the year. If any will be there and would like to take something apart I will have my tools with me.

I currently have stops to make in River Ranch, Port St. Lucie and Titusville. We will spend the last week of the month in the keys but other than that we will be going where the wind and the road take us.

[JIM KELLER]

I know we will be bouncing around Florida the entire month of January and I know that is a popular location for many that time of the year. If any will be there and would like to take something apart I will have my tools with me.

I currently have stops to make in River Ranch, Port St. Lucie and Titusville. We will spend the last week of the month in the keys but other than that we will be going where the wind and the road take us.

Joe, It sounds like you have the potential to start what Jon just talked about. Actually a Traveling Road Crew is a better idea than mine.

[MangoMike]

Joe,

PM coming your way.

Mike

[jello_jeep]

Well, here is another one for you. Earlier in the year, I had my L3 service done at PVML, along the way, they called me to tell me that I had a fuel leak in the gen bay. I had seen some drips there before, but have never had the time to delve into it, so I told them to go ahead and fix it.

I used it a couple of weeks later and noted it still leakedin the same spot, not a great deal but I paid to get it fixed, what the heck. So when I was on my quest for tires last week just down the street from PVML, I stopped in and asked if they could check this.

They said that it was the fuel pump, I told them to put another one in. They said they had to get it from Marathon... Sheesh... Jason the Service Manager happened by, and I told him that I had already paid to have this fixed and as far as I was concerned it was on them.

He said he would check into it and call back.

I am sure you will all be shocked :eek: but he didn't call back! Hard to believe isn't it?

I called today and asked him what the deal was. He told me the pump was available and it was like 315.00 (this is an electric fuel pump, seems high to me). I told him again, that cost wasn't a factor to me as I had already paid to get this fixed.

He said their records showed they fixed a fuel LINE, and they weren't responsible for anything else.

So much for their little signs all over outlining their service promises. These include..

* We go that extra mile for you
* We promise to fix it right the first time

And many others. They should promise you a nice brown crock to put all this BS into!

I told him I wanted to speak to someone up the food chain to complain about service, he gave me Mark Armstrong's name, but he won't be in for a week .. LOL

I suppose if I had time to pull this pump and ask some of the resident experts it won't come close to 300+ labor.

Its a shame that when you choose to shell out instead of finding time, you get boinked anyway! :mad:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Warren,

What brand generator?

I had to replace the fuel pump on my Kohler which uses a Yanmar engine. It took about 10 minutes (I'm not kidding).

The fuel pump was pricey, but the time to install it was minimal.

I cannot imagine a fuel pump leaking. Usually it is a fitting or one of the "banjo" fittings.

[phorner]

Jon,

When we picked up our Liberty, it had a small fuel leak in the generator bay and the repair was to install a new fuel pump on the generator. You're right on about the labor.... didn't take 10 minutes and Marathon Coach had the pump in stock.

FYI same Kohler generator and Yanmar engine. Don't know the cost of the pump but I'll bet you can get one easily enough.

[rfoster]

Last week I had time to visit with a some Non POG Bus Owners. One particular fellow from Dallas wanted to vent and told me that he visited Buddy Greggs Place in Texas to have a few repairs done and had ask in advance how much do you think it will run? Now keep in mind he claimed he had an extended warranty till 100k miles. At the time he had about 40k miles. They gave him an estimate of between 5 and 6 grand. This was not the normal maintenance issues but included a detail of the interior, some new carpet in the front and new upholstery on the couch. When he picked it up he thought maybe with the few add ons he would expect to pay $10,000 max - no more. The final bill was $37000.00. That ain't no typo. He asked why so much, did you file the warranty claim, their answer - no we forgot and now the claim is denied so it is your coach, your bill.

He said no. I will pay and did pay 20,000 and will never go back.

Of course there are two sides to every story and I only got his so take it for what its worth.

Bus Customer BEWARE.

[MangoMike]

Jeepster,

Some Generator Fuel Pump Info over at Prevoman.

http://www.prevoman.com/Pages/Gen%20Fuel%20Pump/page1.html

3291

mm

[Darl-Wilson]

Like an HMO to take care of the health of our bodies, we could use a PMO (Prevost Maintenance Organization) to take care of our buses.

Any possibility of a co-op type of organization where "members" pay annual or monthly fees to participate in the program?

Could we benefit by the power of collective purchases and technicians that were skilled and could be trusted? Are we a large enough group to accomplish such an endeavor or do we have such an attrition rate that it wouldn't be beneficial?

Just kicking around some ideas....

Jerry Winchester should have some input on this idea. Boots and Coots has a program like this for their clients. I am guessing most of their clients are stationary which is a little different from most Prevost owners. If I recall this was a good profit center for B&C in the last fiscal year and the program has been expanding so obviously it works. If something like that could be adapted to a Prevost is another thing. Some great POG members might be interested in such a venture. Jon has some great ideas and Joe C. has a lot to offer. Maybe they will dream up something to make life better for the rest of us and while becoming the 'T. Boone Pickens' of the Prevost world.:cool:

[jello_jeep]

Jon, it is a 20KW Power Tech.


Warren,

What brand generator?

I had to replace the fuel pump on my Kohler which uses a Yanmar engine. It took about 10 minutes (I'm not kidding).

The fuel pump was pricey, but the time to install it was minimal.

I cannot imagine a fuel pump leaking. Usually it is a fitting or one of the "banjo" fittings.

[jello_jeep]

Thanks for the suggestions boys!

Mine ran all day no prob, just drips a bit... Its on the short list, but I hope to find it cheaper than 300 whatever!



Jeepster,

Some Generator Fuel Pump Info over at Prevoman.

http://www.prevoman.com/Pages/Gen%20Fuel%20Pump/page1.html

3291

mm

[garyde]

You always pray the bill won't be sky high when you have no choice but to take your coach in to Prevost. On the other hand, when you have time, you have choices, so look around and talk to a few different shops and call your converter before accepting a price for repair.
Also, with knowledge comes bargaining power, so never ask a question when you don't know the answer when getting prices from Prevost. It's a good idea to know how long it shoulld take to replace a pump or fix a norgren valve.

[mikedee]

Warren,
I had the same leak, Mine is a SW fuel pump that was used in the 70's and 80's on a lot of cars, and hot rods. Good old JC Whitney stuff. I Googled the pump every way I could think of and found a foreign car parts store in Santa Barbara that had the pump. $64.00 and they tossed in Fed Ex and tax. Exact part, 10 min change out.

[merle&louise]

There has been a great deal of criticism of Prevost Mira Loma. How do the other Prevost centers (like Jacksonville) compare; specifically, Dallas and Knoxville? How much are the hourly rates?

[phorner]

I have only been to the Jacksonville Prevost service center, and it was only once. It was a good experience.

However, I hesitate to pass judgement on anything, good or bad, based on a single experience. I would like to think that my experience was the norm. However there may be others with more experience that feel it's the exception....

[0533]

Thanks for the suggestions boys!

Mine ran all day no prob, just drips a bit... Its on the short list, but I hope to find it cheaper than 300 whatever!
I have a PowerTech 20KW, and it runs great. Here is the website for them in Florida. I suspect that you can find this part online for less.

Here is a California Powertech outfit, see link.

http://www.powertech-gen.com/parts_service.php
http://www.powertech-gen.com/

[phorner]

Jerry Winchester should have some input on this idea. Boots and Coots has a program like this for their clients. I am guessing most of their clients are stationary which is a little different from most Prevost owners. If I recall this was a good profit center for B&C in the last fiscal year and the program has been expanding so obviously it works. If something like that could be adapted to a Prevost is another thing. Some great POG members might be interested in such a venture. Jon has some great ideas and Joe C. has a lot to offer. Maybe they will dream up something to make life better for the rest of us and while becoming the 'T. Boone Pickens' of the Prevost world.:cool:

I was thinking that participants would "pre-pay" for a block of labor, say 8 or 16 hours. Then, the owner of the bus would have to schedule his time with the roving or stationary technician.

The only expense during your scheduled time would be parts, which, hopefully, could be purchased somewhat in bulk to realize some savings.

It wouldn't take too many participants to make this arrangement work.

So, the question is, how many hours does the average bus require for routine maintenance (Prevost systems only, nothing converter-specific) and what hourly rate would provide a good income for the tech while offering savings to bus owners?

[truk4u]

All my experience has been in Nashville and the service has been excellent, but I never left the bus unattended while work was being done and they have no problem with that. Additionally, I inspect everything while the bus is still in the air.

[0533]

I have a PowerTech 20KW, and it runs great. Here is the website for them in Florida. I suspect that you can find this part online for less.

Here is a California Powertech outfit, see link.

http://www.powertech-gen.com/parts_service.php
http://www.powertech-gen.com/
Powertech service Ca.

California
Bay City Electric
12208 Industry Rd
Lakeside, CA 92040
Ph(619)938-8200
Fx(619)938-8202
Service Manager: Ron Jones
ztooker@bcew.com

California Diesel & Power
150 Nardi Lane
Martinez, CA 94553
Ph(925)229-2700
Fx(925)229-2702
Attn:Rob Nanney
Robnanney@gotpower.com

[Alan__]

My six experiences with TX have all been good. I stay and bird-dog the entire process.

[jello_jeep]

Thanks for the part numbers ya'll.

I will check into it next week.

[jello_jeep]

Sheesh Truk, we are talking about service facilities, not comfort stations! :p


All my experience has been in Nashville and the service has been excellent, but I never left the bus unattended while work was being done and they have no problem with that. Additionally, I inspect everything while the bus is still in the air.

[rahangman]

Being a newbie I haven't had much experience ... with much of anything, yet. But, I did stop into Jacksonville,PSC and yes, very congenial and courteous and they seemed knowledgeable, but, they load tested my 7month old chassis batteries and pronounced them 1 bad, 3 marginal, after putting a quick charge on them to start the bus. I wound up shelling out $640+ for that, also they were unable to fix my "leans" telling me the Prevost level low checked ok, except that I cannot raise the bus. The only way the bus rises is in Drive . The rocker switch for Up/Down allows bus to lower even using the UP button. HUH? They told me that is why the system is called Level Low..... I am currently disputing the charges through higher ups than in Jacksonville. I will be hard pressed to return to them. Maybe Nashville or Dallas.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Hangman.........the art of vacuuming money from one's wallet has been perfected and it takes everyone of us working together to minimize that event. Few here have gotten away unscathed so welcome to the club.

You will need to develop an understanding of your coach, its systems, and either how to do your own work, or who to have do the work. Further, when you engage someone to do the work arm yourself with the knowledge of what is involved.

To address your two specific issues, it is possible to ruin batteries in your coach quickly. For example, if you have a charger running continuously and it is not the kind that has 3 stages or some current sensing capability you can "cook" the batteries. Letting batteries go dead and then recharging them significantly shortens their life. The care and feeding of batteries is important because they are not cheap. But if you want to avoid surprises, learn your charging systems and how to properly charge and maintain your batteries. There have been many discussions on this forum that a search will turn up.

As to the leans and trouble with the leveling system, this tends to be an area in which the less knowledgiable will end up spending thousands (not kidding) if they just turn their coach over to a service facility and tell them to fix it. Our leveling systems vary from year to year and converter to converter, but they all share a basic operating principle that is not that difficult to comprehend. The problem is that if as an owner you do not develop a little understanding you have just opened your wallet and given it the man with the vacuum.

Simply stated your suspension needs to be maintained. If it is not or has not been maintained it needs to be brought up to a good condition or you will be chasing problems forever. Leaks are the primary problem and no amount of soapy water squirted on fittings is going to identify the problems. It is easier and cheaper to isolate the problems and then methodically replace the components in question. You do not have a single suspension system, but three separate systems that share an auxiliary air supply source. You have a front, left rear and right rear system.

As to why it does not respond to commands, that could be as simple as a failed solenoid valve located in the steer compartment, or an incorrect air bag. If nobody has recently replaced the air bags I would start investigating the solenoids. As silly as it sounds you can do almost all the diagnosis, one step at a time with help here to isolate probable causes. If the problems regarding raising the front are what seems like a failed solenoid valve you can fix the problem with the removal of two screws, the replacement of a valve and restoring the two screws.

What you do not want to do is pay for on the job training of a service tech.

[phorner]

All good advice from Jon...... I know from first-hand experience!!

So, how did you make out with the solenoid? Was that ever confirmed as the problem?

[Richard Barnes]

I've been reluctant to speak about Mira Loma because they still have my coach there and I don't want any further problems. But, you all need to be aware of my recent experiences and I hope you will follow what I'll do in the future.

Two weeks ago, I took the coach in to have an electrical problem repaired. (Prevost initally repaired this problem back in February,2008 at a cost of $1800 in labor and $141 in parts.) They repaired it but wanted to charge me for the new parts and labor. I objected and they finally agreed to make the repair at no cost to me. Then, I received a call from them saying that when the mechanic moved my coach into the bay he raised the tag axel and then he could not get the wheels to go back down. The service writer said that both tag axel cylinders were leaking and would have to be replaced at a cost of $346.00 each for the cylinders. This call came at 2:00pm in the afternoon. I immediately drove to the Mira Loma location arriving at 3:00pm and watched the mechanic remove and replace both cylinders. The mechanic's shift ended between 3:30-4:00pm but he stayed until 6:30pm and completed the work on my coach. That is a total of 4.5 hours of labor for this repair but when I got my bill, I was charged 13 hours of labor for this repair. Also, I had other work done on the coach that day and was billed for those labor hours as well. The bottom line, they charged me more labor hours on this particular day than they were open. I'll at least have an interesting argument as I get the issue to upper management.

This follows my last billing issue where I was quoted $4,100.00 for several repairs and service work but when I got the bill it exceeded $6,000.00. My office paid it before they noticed that it was billed in Canadian dollars. Excuse my ignorance, but the work is done in the US, they ask you to remit payment to an address in the US but they bill you in Canadian dollars? How many people have had that happen and not catch the fact that it is CAD? The lovely Mrs. Barnes got that straightened out (we thought) until we noticed that they left the labor rate stated in Canadian dollars at $138.00 per hour. I'm now asking them to correct that mistake and in the future they bill me in US dollars. I won't accept another invoice with CAD on the bottom line.

I like the mechanics and the service writer at Prevost Mira Loma but the management and billing operation are the worst I've ever seen. I can't run my business that way. I won't let them do any more work on my coach without a good faith estimate up front. Ray Davis has just given me the name of a company he uses and I'll take my next service business there.

[phorner]

FYI, I have received many invoices from Prevost and NEVER have any been in anything other than good ole US Dollars.

I guess anything is possible, but if this mistake is common, they have serious management problems.

[Kevin Erion]

Why do we, myself included allow Mira Loma to begin work on our bus before an estimate is made? I can't think of anything else we do that we just open our wallet and let them pull whatever they want out!
It is up to us to force the people to do there job, from an estimate of repairs to the finish invoice before we leave the shop. It is much harder to fight about it after the fact.
I also think that Prevost has developed unit pricing on most of the more common jobs, such as leaking wheel seals, brake jobs, AC compressors and a lube, oil and filter. I think it is crazy to pay for labor time that was not spent. I don't think this work should be done on a flat rate price, 2 hours at $105.00 is what we should pay if the job takes 2 hours, not 4 just because Prevost ask for it.
This is why an estimate is so important to us and maybe why we don't get one.

[garyde]

I have also only been billed in US Dollars. They must have not punched in the correct code when they charged you.
To my amazment, I have left and driven home without even reviewing a bill. I have had only one issue, and Prevost credited it .
It has been advised by others to always get a quote up front and do your hagglig up front prior to having Prevost do a job.
If there is trouble shooting issues, such as electrical, air, etc., have some stop points agreed upon to re- evaluate the time remaining . In other words, don't give them the keys and say 'fix it'.
Kevin is right, there is no other business I know which you would give a open check book.
Also, I would have information up front on what you believe the time and price should be from a seperate person or company before proceeding.:p

[Ray Davis]

Steve Bennett can tell you horror stories about service out at Mira Loma. When I first got my red bus, I had excellent service (until the A/C issue). But now, I'm actually afraid to got to ML. Others say it's fine, BUT they stay onsite and watch everything. Nice, but we shouldn't have to do that. Also, I'm not a mechanic, and I can't tell if they are doing something wrong.

I did have at least one billing issue, similar to Richards, in they made a conversion error in the wrong direction when filling my A/C during my multiple times having the A/C repaired. They filled with R-12 in pounds (they used a bathroom scale to figure out pounds used). But, the billing converted pounds into kilograms the wrong direction (instead of dividing by 2.2, they multiplied) ultimately charging me 4 times as much as should have for R-12. At $60-$70 per unit, it was really costly.

For my next regular service, I'm going to ABC-Companies in Costa Mesa. It is a new facility that regularly services transit buses. Steve Bennett has started to use them, and they are doing a great job, at a fraction of the cost of Prevost.

I've spoken with the service manager there, and they are thrilled to get our business.

Obviously, I won't get into Prevost specific repairs there, but for standard servicing, this is where I'm gonna go.

Ray

[Richard Barnes]

Ray,

You should find this interesting. I called Prevost in Nashville today and asked them to give me an estimate for replacing the two tag axle lift cylinders - both parts and labor. I received a call this afternoon from the service writer with a price of $665.91 for each side parts and labor. He said Mr. Barnes, I've built a little extra labor in there in case of corrrosion or difficulty in removing the parts but if that is not a problem the labor cost will be lower. This is about half the cost billed to me by Mira Loma. I have a meeting with them in the morning.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I don't have a dog in the fight because I haven't taken my coach to Prevost (except for fire repairs which my insurance company paid) since the mid nineties, but I am never surprised anymore when I read of owners being taken advantage of, or having to return numerous times to get the repairs done properly.

What does surprise me is that with all that is written on this forum about these issues that owners hand over the keys and presumably their check book. As much as our coaches are viewed as complex, mysterious devices, the Prevost side of things is actually reasonably simple. There are a lot of us on this site now that have gotten into some extensive repairs ourselves and I for one would be very happy to share my estimates of times involved to do repairs.

I think others would also be willing. I know this has been said before, but as an owner when dealing with a company that appears more than happy to overcharge, your only defense is to stay with the coach, record start and stop times and pay close attention to what work is actually being done. If you choose to spend your time somewhere other than watching over the mechanic's shoulder, plan on being taken advantage of. That appears to be the rule rather than the exception with Prevost currently.

The best solution is to bring the work elsewhere. Usually that sends a strong message.

[Richard Barnes]

If they do it wrong I'll be the first to post it on this forum. But, if they correct the mistakes, I'll be the first to thank them.

In my case the service manager at Mira Loma has reviewed my invoices this morning and has agreed to make the corrections which total about $2,400.00 in overcharges.

No one, not even the Canadian office can answer why I was billed on two invoices in Canadian dollars but it happened. They reissued those invoices this morning and even refunded the currency conversion fees charged by my bank.

Regarding the excess labor charges for the R&R of the tag axle cylinders, they agreed that they had overcharged me and reduced the number of labor hours by half. During the inspection of the invoices, they noticed that they had double billed me for a part and had it coded as labor. They also made that correction and returned my money.

I'll still watch the work in the future and have an estimate before they start any work.

[Sid Tuls]

Richard, it was great to meet you and I'm happy that you got your mess straighten out. I've been going there for almost 2 years and honestly I have had no problem. I know that almost of my stuff is warranty work but I do have all my service work done. They haven't done anything with the conversion part. I still have a great relationship with the owners of Thompson. I will keep it in my memory bank for future use. Thanks for all your efforts. Have a great time @ the POG event I sure did the first one I went to. Maybe Harry has a different opinion. I know one of the guys @ Mira Loma is a POG member his name is Scott and he will bust his ass to do it right. I think he was working on your coach this morning.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The cynic in me compels me to make this comment.

Any company that charges as much as Prevost and some Detroit and Allison dealers charge in part justifies that charge based on their experience and the quality of their work. They charge more than aviation mechanics, who not only put their license (and career) on the line, but who make considerably fewer errors in their repairs. So I would expect their work to be almost without fault. Everyone is entitled to mistakes but the high priced guys should make significantly fewer than anyone.

Those errors should not only not happen, but they should be expected to stand behind the repairs when they do happen.

Ditto for billing errors. When I had a business it was my job to know and understand the labor hours involved in a task and it was my job to see that our employees were held to those hours and that my customer did not pay for our lack of efficiency. Someone should be reviewing the reported hours before submitting those documents for billing.

It should not be the customer's job to audit, but in this case it clearly is required. What gets me concerned is how many customers accept the invoice and pay it without doing what Richard did. Further, from talking to many POG members about their experiences with service I am hearing from many about problems such as overcharges, even when there are estimates, and worksmanship that is sub-par. I wish we could be bragging about the superior service quality instead of discussing ways to insure we are not taken advantage of.

[rahangman]

Jon, you hit this nail on the head. I have had some brush with Prevost Service and what small amount mine has been and then hearing some of these stories from "Seasoned Soldiers" I am becoming less than excited at the prospect of returning to Prevost Service Centers. To be fair, I am sure lots of their work is on target, however, they seem to be developing a propensity to err, which, comes out of my pocket. Caveat Emptor (SP?)

[garyde]

I'm wondering, why isn't Prevost bound by the same rules and regulations as a Auto mechanic or Dealership? They are required to give an estimate of the work and get a signature prior to proceeding. If they find additional problems which will cost more, they are once again required to consult with the owner prior to proceeding with additional work.
T&M invoces are the life blood of these businesses. Its important to be be paid for the work completed. But as a consumer , you have a right to competant work and management.
I recently had a transmission go bad in one of my Trucks. The Ford Dealer said it would be $4600.00 to replace the transmission. I asked how he knew it was bad, since I had just had it re-built 13 months earlier. He did'nt know but the symtoms ndicated it needed work and because the truck had a certain amount of mileage he figured it needed a new transmission. I discussed with him the possibility that just one part had failed, he said that it would cost $1400.00 to break the transmission down to take a look.
As it turned out, I towed it out of there and took it back to the guy who re built it the first time.
The thing is , you have to feel comfortable having the discussion and not feel afraid to question or simply take your work elsewhere even it means toweing it out of there.

[LA-HODAG]

I should have known better than to go back there, but I took my bus in to Mira Loma before this thread started. I had an intermittent problem with the air compressor. After running all day, if I shut down for a short time, e.g. to unhook the car, bus would sometimes fail to build air on restart. Shutting the engine down and starting again fixed the problem. I don't want to get stranded somewhere with no brakes, so I took it in to Mira Loma. Despite a service appointment, they kept it for a over week before finally looking at it on the day I told them I absolutely needed it back. They replaced the governor on the compressor and said I was good to go. So I did, up to our favorite trout fishing spot near Mammoth Lakes. After driving 6 hours Friday, shut down to unhook the car. No air building on restart. Tried repeatedly in the morning. No air. Got Prevost emergency service on the phone and tried lots of stuff. No good. I needed to be back at work in LA today, so called Coachnet Saturday to arrange for a tow Sunday or Monday. Coachnet was great. They tried really hard to find a lowboy tow, but the location is pretty remote and with holiday weekend it was not possible, so they sent a big rig tow early Monday morning. The driver had to air up the coach to get to ride height and release the brakes in order to tow. In the process, he discovered a stuck valve in the air dryer was venting all the air from the compressor. He jacked up the rear of the bus with his rig and crawled under to re-route the compressor air around the dryer, a beautiful temporary fix that got us on the road late in the day but without a tow. Dropped it at Mira Loma late last night to have them fix what they should have already fixed.

What I have observed out there is that they never really trouble-shoot anything. They just start replacing parts that might be involved in the problem and hope for the best. That is not the type of service you and I have a right to expect.

p.s.: this is not the serivce center's fault, but while it was out there the first time it got so hot that the adhesive on my stainless rub rails started to fail and one fell off. Of course they ran it over, so I am out $450 for a new one. Argh.

p.p.s: While the tow guy was doing his magic, my girlfriend caught 3 nice rainbows, so not a total loss of a day. I missed out on the fishing to stay near while the poor mechanic was under the bus.

p.p.p.s: Cal-Nevada Towing. This guy went so far out of his way to get us on the road, it was unbelievable. He worked on the bus for at least 4 hours, got covered in grease and mud from head to toe, and screwed himself out of a 50 mile tow in the process. Now that is the kind of service that we should be getting from the manufacturer of these expensive toys!

end of rant.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'm not a lawyer, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I would be expecting compensation from Prevost for the costs associated with the on-road repairs. Prevost represents itself as the experts, charges accordingly, and if anyone should know the coach it should be Prevost. Pretty sad when a tow truck driver who does not claim to be a Prevost expert can fix their oversights.

The only way I can see a defense for Prevost in this instance is it sounds like the problem was intermittent, and those are really hard to diagnose.

As a clarification to everyone not totally familiar with the bus air system, when you have no air you have brakes. In fact that is a safety feature. Air is what releases the brakes and holds them released. When you lose air pressure your brakes apply via very heavy springs, locking them up. Had this issue with the open dryer valve occurred while driving you would have seen the air pressure gauges either constantly cycling up and down, telling you that you had a serious problem that required immediate attention, or you would have lost air at a rate the compressor could not compensate for and eventually your brakes would have locked up.

[Richard Barnes]

Richard, it was great to meet you and I'm happy that you got your mess straighten out. I've been going there for almost 2 years and honestly I have had no problem. I know that almost of my stuff is warranty work but I do have all my service work done. They haven't done anything with the conversion part. I still have a great relationship with the owners of Thompson. I will keep it in my memory bank for future use. Thanks for all your efforts. Have a great time @ the POG event I sure did the first one I went to. Maybe Harry has a different opinion. I know one of the guys @ Mira Loma is a POG member his name is Scott and he will bust his ass to do it right. I think he was working on your coach this morning.

Sid,

Great meeting you as well! Hope your trip to Amarillo was safe. Let me know when you return to California and maybe we can get together for dinner.

[jello_jeep]

One of my favorites, was going to pick mine up at the agreed time, and then being told that they had discovered a problem with my air brakes, and it wasn't really safe to drive so they were going to have to "check it".

I asked what made them say that such a problem existed, and they told me my air brake gauge on the dash was indicating zero.

I boarded with the guy and asked him which gauge, he pointed to the gauge for the Howard Air Steering pressure which of course read zero.

I asked him if he was positive that that gauge was for brakes (the two air brake gauges are together on the other side of the dash). He replied yes thats what it was.

With him looking, I engaged the air steering and watched it go up to 100 lbs or so. Sheepish look from service boy ensues...

I just wonder what that would have cost me?

[rahangman]

Hey Sid, don't you ever stay at home, or are you gonna run for Mayor of Amarillo? See you again in OKC

[LA-HODAG]

Thanks for your insight, Jon. I meant that I took the bus in for repair because I did not want to get stranded without "functioning" brakes. You are right that everyone needs to know that if you have a loss of air while driving, the spring brakes will automatically be applied and you will stop, and if you can't build air, you will be unable to release the brakes. We have all seen evidence of this system working -- heavy double tire skid marks veering off to the side of the highway likely resulted from a big rig losing air to the trailer, causing the trailer brakes to lock up. The result, in a bus or big rig, is that you are stranded until you can restore air pressure to the system.

I have not been charged anything for the roadside repair because repairing the air system sufficiently to release the brakes would have been necessary to tow the bus and, I guess, is not considered a repair as opposed to part of the tow. But I am going to suggest that Coachnet take it up with Prevost. It's really not fair that Coachnet got stuck with that bill.

Prevost has already started the "intermittent problem" defense. I understand those are hard to diagnose, but if they were not certain they had fixed my problem they should have told me so, and they should have also told me the other possible causes for the problem. They told me they had fixed the problem, so I assumed they had confirmed that a faulty governor was to blame. (Please, let's not start a whole new discussion of faulty governors and the problems they cause us Californians).

My gripe, as I said, is that in Mira Loma that they don't really listen to the customer about what the problem is, they don't give much consideration to what might be causing the problem, they just start changing parts, starting with the easiest one to reach. If doctors did that, every patient who came in not feeling well would leave with a transplanted liver and the advice "maybe that will help." I don't expect medical certainty from Prevost service, but I do deserve better than what I got.

[Orren Zook]

Good mechanics are a rare breed - you can only learn so much from training seminars and technical data. Hands on experience separates the men from the boys when computer data can't point the technician to the faulty item. I hate paying full price labor cost to be the guinea pig while a new tech learns his trade.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I once had to have service while on the road and my schedule did not provide me with the time to do it when I got home so I pulled over the pit and was assigned a mechanic at a truck repair shop.

To his and the manager's credit they said they were not as familiar with buses as they should be and said they would do their best. While Di made dinner in the coach, I put on my coveralls and got in the pit with the mechanic and pointed out what he needed to do.

I don't think they anticipated I knew the coach as well as I did, but I learned that if they would just be honest with us, as customers we can never complain when something is overlooked. In Bryan's case they should have had the mechanic get a detailed explanation, at which point they could have explained about intermittent problems and their difficulty in analyzing them, or they could have said we think it is the governor but it could be something else. Either way Bryan would have definitely not put himself in a remote location without having verified the problem is solved. Returning a coach with brake issues to service is a dumb ass thing to do because of the potential danger.

I don't know if Prevost does this, but car dealerships no longer allow mechanics to talk to custormers. Instead they have Mr. Smiley Face write up the problem. Mr. Smiley Face is usually not a mechanic, and he is the first break in the communication chain. In case anyone thinks that system works, guess again.

[GDeen]

Overcharging, replacing without troubleshooting, poor customer service (waiting a week to look at a coach), etc....

All this tells me is that Prevost gets away with this many more times than not which is why they continue the practice, whether intentional or not.

[Orren Zook]

Well maybe the thought process is that they have a 'captive' audience.... where else can you go for proprietary parts.

[hobobimmer]

Well maybe the thought process is that they have a 'captive' audience.... where else can you go for proprietary parts.

Orren:

Can you ping me off list or private message or email re: front end alignment at your shop in Youngstown, please? Thanks.

Eric Faires
Huntsville, TN

[GDeen]

Well maybe the thought process is that they have a 'captive' audience.... where else can you go for proprietary parts.

Absolutely part of it I am sure....

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The list of proprietary parts is not as big as one might think. Service parts ranging from brake system parts to suspension parts to drive train components are available from sources other than Prevost. Proprietary air bags can be bought from Prevost and as of my last purchase they are the cheapest source anyway, but Prevost does not have to install them. Brake chambers are the reverse. Buying them from Prevost is extremely expensive compared to what you will pay at a truck parts house. It pays to shop.

The metal skins on some coaches can be bought from International Bus in Apopka, FL.

Glass can be bought from Prevost, but anyone can install it. Prevost has good prices on glass.

When we get right down to it the only stuff we really need from Prevost, including the labor for repair or replacement are the big chassis items such as structural stuff or custom components such as the AC condensing and evaporating coils. There are hundreds of items that just make sense to buy from Prevost, and there are certain repairs they should make such as serious body or frame repairs. Those repairs however should be rare.

I think an owner can get good service and fair pricing from Prevost, but apparently to do that the owner must remain involved. It should start with an estimate. If the owner thinks the estimate is too high it is easy to either get a second estimate, or to tap into the experiences we owners on this site have had. I'll bet amongst us we can come up with some fairly accurate estimates of labor hours and component cost for the types of repairs we typically encounter. Some repairs Prevost will not do anyway. They have always sent engine and transmission repairs to Detroit Allison.

Once Prevost is given the approval to proceed, the owner needs to monitor the progress. Ken Zittrer (Bluevost) has an excellent procedure in which he records start and stop times and a list of work performed, comparing it with the invoice. He not only is unlikely to be overcharged, but the mechaincs seem to do higher quality work when they know the owner cares.

There is some work that I think Prevost gets by default. I think slide and skin bonding issues are solely Prevost repairs. If you have a coach needing those repairs you have my sympathy. Unless you can spend the hours necessary, and unless you have convinced Prevost the costs should be borne by them repairs of the skin and slides will have costs that look like the President's budget.

[rahangman]

If estimates for front end alignment are anywhere in anyone"s future, I received an estimate from Prevost Jacksonville for $625 but that includes all 3 axles, they do not do anthing short of that. Quote.

If going to an outside source, what should I look for as to capability, etc?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This is the second post today about an alignment.

While having all the wheels pointed in the right direction and not scuffing their way down the road is good, what is it that indicates an alignment is needed, especially on all three axles? I run my hands around the tires periodically and if something is not lined up properly I can feel it in how the tires wear. Only once on my old coach did I need an alignment and as it turned out the only adjustment was toe in. That need was clearly evident.

Maybe someone can jump in here, but I am trying to picture where and how my drive and tag can be adjusted, but sitting here typing I cannot envision any adjustment points for the drive and tag. I guess I will have to look to be sure.

My comments above relate only to solid front axle coaches. I don't know nuthin about those fancy IFS coaches.

[Kevin Erion]

Jon,
you can adjust the rear drive and tag to make sure they are looking straight and even with the front.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Are you going to make me get under the coach Kevin, or will you be a good guy and tell me where the adjustment is? Is it an excentric on the rod ends?

My brain can't picture it even though I bet I looked at it hundreds of times.

Old age.

[truk4u]

Me too, what and where is the adjustment?

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Another good question for Bill Jenson at OKC, Tom.


JIM

[Kevin Erion]

OK, I am going by memory so don't shot the messenger boy! Both the rear end and tag axle on my bus have drag links that bolt to the chassis. You can put shims between the chassis and the drag link mount to change the location. you could have the tag or drive or both not going straight. This is very common an trucks and big trailers.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Kevin,

We ain't putting any heat on you. It's a great point to consider when we are under the buses. When I had my (only) alignment done the shop checked the steers relative to the rear axles, but only the steer axle got adjusted. I think if a bus leaves the factory with the rear axles running true relative to the chassis centerline it would take some serious physical damage to knock the axles out of alignment. I would envision wearing slop in the bushings long before I would consider any of the physical connection points needing adjustment.

[jack14r]

Jon,On my 2001 Marathon it had a resonance in it at certain speeds near the drive and tag,when I had Nashville align it the technician said that the alignment had only been done at the time of manufacturing because he could identify the shims that the factory uses.He also stated that they had received shells that were so poorly aligned that the tires had to be replaced when they got to Nashville.When all of my axles were aligned it was obvious that it had needed it,I no longer chased the wheel and the rumble was gone.The tag and the drive were fighting each other.Jdub now has the alignment data sheet before and after Nashville aligned it,maybe he can pull it out and tell us the rest of the story.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Good to know Jack. If I understand the point correctly you are saying for alignment purposes we need to do a whole coach alignment.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Jon, both Loc and I had 3 axle alignments done here in Houston, @ Fischers diesel.

Loc's XLII bus was way out of alignment ( must be his high speed maneuvering into parking spaces ) according to the paperwork he got of before and after the alignment. Mine was probably waisted money, sorry to say, cause even the girl in the shop said, they didn't do much, just a little alignment issue. But it is all 3 axles that get aligned.

Gary S.

[jack14r]

I do think that if we are going to do an alignment all axles should be included.The real benefit I got from the alignment was 1 MPG increase in fuel mileage,I know that this is hard to believe but the coach always got better fuel mileage after the alignment,as well as the rumble in the center of the coach was gone.

[JIM KELLER]

Gary, How much is a three axle alignment ?

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Gary, How much is a three axle alignment ?

Jim, it is based on actual work, parts needed, but the Cost is from $450 -$900 for Josam Laser alignment on all axels, and IFS Camber Adjustment. I paid around $450, but I am sure Loc paid closer to $900, cause he always has to pay more for most repairs,,,, and doesn't seem to mind it either. :cool:

http://www.fischersdieselservice.com/services.html

Gary S.

[wowens]

Hi all , Ihave just taken delivery of a new H345 S/2 Liberty Elegant Lady. We have been in Prevost's since 1989 and never had an alignment done , do you think it is necessary if there are no obvious symptoms ?

[Darl-Wilson]

Welcome to the POG Wilton and Tommie! I am sure you are about to be inundated with 'New Member ' greetings.

Your Prevost manual should include your alignment service interval. Need for alignment outside of the service interval will show itself by unusual tire wear such as scuffing on the edges of the front tires as a result of toe-in-toe-out. The same can apply on the other two axles. Unusual wear in the center of the tire can be from over-inflation the same as under-inflation might manifest itself in more wear on the outer edge of the tire. Increased fuel consumption, as noted by other POG members, may also be a sign that an alignment is needed. Tire rotation may help but once a tire has developed a wear pattern it may very well continue that pattern until the tire is dangerous or it's life is shortened.

The cost of any abnormal wear will ultimately cost more than an alignment. Buying new tires will likely be the result of ignoring alignment or inflation standards.

My suggestion is to follow the factory recomendations in most all service related items, including alignment, however if your tires are wearing even and your tire person agrees that an alignment is not needed I would go with their advice.

Oh by the way, NICE BUS!! Imagine an H-3 and a Liberty. What a great combination! Why not show it off at the Rally in OKC? I'm sure Jim Skiff can find another spot.:)


Darl

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Welcome Wilton and Tommie. It's great to have another Liberty owner in the group, we do need more to help absorb the heat we get for having the best ;) :)

Do come to the rally if you can, you will like the people!

JIM