CC Owners - Bus Air - BX93 Belts

[truk4u]

The bus air on our CC's take BX93 belts. I can only get about 5,000 miles out of a set before they start shedding teeth like Jeep at a peanut brittle sampling. I have tried adjusting the tension, I have aligned the pulley's and it still does the same thing. I've tried two different manufacturers.

While exploring the Gates Web Site, there are belts that are specifically designed to work with a backside idler and they have a designation of BSX instead of BX. I tried calling and e-mailing, but it's like trying to communicate with Mango during Latino Night. Is it possible the BX belts should not be used with backside rollers?

I know Jim Keller has had issues with his. Anyone have any suggestions for input on this? Here are a couple pictures...

3216
These two BX93 Napa belts have 4600 miles on them and losing teeth

3217
This is what the pulley configuration looks like

Pleasse don't suggest a call to CC, we all know where that goes!:rolleyes:

[flyu2there]

Perhaps you are using the wrong belt...try the B93 Power Belt...thicker and NO TEETH. Never have had a problem. The idler is the perp with the belts with teeth...NO Bueno!


Gates B 93 Hi-Power II B93 96 "x 21/32" V-Belt retail 16.00


John

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Tom, according to Carlisle belt mfg. co trouble shooting guide the use of an idler pulley will cause tooth loss.

Since you say that Gates makes a special belt for use with an idler pulley, it is a good bet that if you use that one you will not have a problem.

The last owner of your bus may not have paid attention to detail, or found it easier to obtain the belt you are using, and you are just duplicating that error when you install that same belt.

You already know how long the one you have lasts, so buy the other and make a test.

If you do get in touch with the manufacturer he will just say use the one made for use with an idler pulley if that's what you have. Don't waste you time!

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

There is a second reason for cog belt tooth failure, that being heat. You say that the pulleys are in alignment, well maybe not in all directions.

From your photo, teeth are only missing from the inside belt. It is possible that inner belt is looser than the outer belt and slipping and thereby causing heat, and failure.

This looseness may be from both belts not being the same length (not matched), or from a misalignment in the "parallelness" of the centerlines of the shafts to which the pulleys are mounted.

Also, check the quality of the idler bearing, and the quality of surface finish of the pulley itself.

Is it, or are they, at the end of their life.

Check wobble, end play, smooth running, and temp..

[dale farley]

Tom, I just checked my belts, and they are High Power BX 94. So far (knock on stainless) I have not had a problem, but I have not used the air that much. I will be giving it a good workout in about 3 1/2 more weeks when I head back to Florida.

[flyu2there]

Another often overlooked point is that any belt will stretch, drives that utilize two (or more) belts should have both belts changed at the same time, even if only one is bad.
Finally, I change a belt, even if all else looks good, when the name/part number wear off of the belt; no I don't believe that's an urban legand either. BTW those two belts also on the Country Coach, drive the 24V alternator that keeps the motor runnin!!

John

[bluevost]

Fly Guy,

I have had failure with both belts. When I bought my coach it had B 93 (no teeth), they failed and I put on BX 93. Truk is right, about 5,000 miles and the teeth start falling out. I now figure "it is what it is" and carry at least one set of spares, as you cannot walk into Napa, Kragen, or anywhere else I know of, and walk out with the belts. I have to order them online from Napa.

Jim C,

As far as I can tell all my pulleys line up just right. I am replacing my CC OTR compressor next week with Nick. I'll make sure to mention it to him.

Makin' my way to Spearfish,

Ken

[dale farley]

Now I am wondering if I need to replalce my BX 94 belts with BX 93 before I leave here? If the BX93 is stretching and coming off, I assume my BX94 should get loose even faster than the 93.

[flyu2there]

Ken,

The man at Country Coach, Jim Cooley, researched that one for me when I did a precautionary change last year. I noticed some checking in one of the belts so I changed them both, as mentioned, B93 Heavy Duty. Mine came from a heavy truck parts warehouse. The previous belts had been in service for several years, probably 20,000 miles or so----no failures and they were identical to the replacements, save been a little checked and worn and a skosh longer.

Jim is correct about the belts with teeth, they really do not like the idler pulley laying opposing force on them, Changing out those two belts is a bear, as you know; after I installed the new ones (due to the belt being 8 feet long) I let it run in a few hours and then re tightened to remove the excess play that had developed.

John

[flyu2there]

Now I am wondering if I need to replalce my BX 94 belts with BX 93 before I leave here? If the BX93 is stretching and coming off, I assume my BX94 should get loose even faster than the 93.

Check that number Dale.

Per Gates, a 92 is 95", a 93 is 96", a 95 is 98"...they do not currently make a 94.
http://www.jamiesonmachine.com/servlet/the-960/21-fdsh-32-9003-dsh-2093-96-APPLICATIONS/Detail

John

[truk4u]

Thanks John, I'll give them a try and yes, I know the the big silver thingy with wires coming out of it is the chassis alternator!:rolleyes:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have no clue why the teeth would be coming off in chunks, but I also don't know why a belt would be set up that way with only about 90 degrees of contact on the pulley of the driven component like the compressor and the alternator.

It does not appear the idler pulley makes much of a contribution other than minimizing slap. I have a similar idler pulley on my big boy OTR compressor belt arrangement and it does little more than keep the belts from hitting the metalwork in that area. I have seen other coaches with a stainless steel surface where the idler on mine is and that is to let the belt slide as it flexes and slaps.

I guess the question as to why the teeth are coming off should be answered by Gates or other belt manufacturer. They should see that picture.

[Orren Zook]

Check that number Dale.

Per Gates, a 92 is 95", a 93 is 96", a 95 is 98"...they do not currently make a 94.
http://www.jamiesonmachine.com/servlet/the-960/21-fdsh-32-9003-dsh-2093-96-APPLICATIONS/DetailJohn

In their most recent catalog and price sheet Gates shows belts numbered BX90 thru BX97 as available, some distributors may elect to carry only the 'A' movers but the other sizes/numbers should be available within a day or so from one of the Gates warehouses if your distributor wants to take the time to order for you.

[flyu2there]

Jon,

Pssssst, I think the problem is the teeth, they fall out when they runover the idler, me thinks that the teeth are aftermarket, factory belt is solid. All in the nomenclature....B93 is a heavy duty belt, BX93 is a power belt *with teeth)......

John

[Orren Zook]

The bus air on our CC's take BX93 belts. I can only get about 5,000 miles out of a set before they start shedding teeth like Jeep at a peanut brittle sampling. I have tried adjusting the tension, I have aligned the pulley's and it still does the same thing. I've tried two different manufacturers.

While exploring the Gates Web Site, there are belts that are specifically designed to work with a backside idler and they have a designation of BSX instead of BX. I tried calling and e-mailing, but it's like trying to communicate with Mango during Latino Night. Is it possible the BX belts should not be used with backside rollers?

I know Jim Keller has had issues with his. Anyone have any suggestions for input on this? Here are a couple pictures...

3216
These two BX93 Napa belts have 4600 miles on them and losing teeth

3217
This is what the pulley configuration looks like

Pleasse don't suggest a call to CC, we all know where that goes!:rolleyes:


Tom,

Gates will analyze your belts and tell you what is causing a premature failure - if you have a sample, send it to me or bring one along to Spearfish and I'll send to their lab to be checked.

[flyu2there]

Bottom Line...Country Coach, the manufacturer says "use the Gates B93 or equivilent." They did not mention the power belts (with teeth) or B94's....

I think it is fairly simple.

John

[Orren Zook]

Jon,

Pssssst, I think the problem is the teeth, they fall out when they runover the idler, me thinks that the teeth are aftermarket, factory belt is solid. All in the nomenclature....B93 is a heavy duty belt, BX93 is a power belt *with teeth)......

John

Actually the B series in Gates are called "Hi-Power II" and the BX series with the molded notch are called "Tri-Power". More variations in belt length options are available in the B series.

FYI, Here's a nugget from the Gates web site:
Heavy-duty maintenance operaters occasionally find that new belts they've installed on their rigs are failing early or jumping or flipping out of their pulley grooves. The preliminary conclusion might be that the failure originates with the belts. Often, it may be incompatibility between the pulleys that is the cause of the failure. Engineers with Gates Corporation have identified the symptoms and causes of pulley incompatibility, as well as solutions to keep your heavy-duty equipment operating at maximum performance.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I agree you have a less than perfect design, but it has been shown that there are a wide range of successes and failures with what it is, that leads me to think there is something in some of the details of installation and tensioning of the belts. (that is if all the components are in good serviceable condition, and in proper alignment)

First off start with Carlisle Gold belts (they invented the cog belt), or Gates BSX belts of the proper length. (remember Gates indicates BSX is a special belt for use with an idler pulley ), which is what you have in your application. Now that you have that information, why would you use the BX belt?

Loosen the pulleys sufficiently to install the belts without prying them over the shives.

Tighten the belts, and use a belt tension gage, available at Grainger for $20.00 to $25.00, or Carlisle, and many other sources.
(under, and over tensioning can ruin the belt in short order)

Here is a link to a Carlisle supplier: http://www.ebmmill.com/gold_label_cog-belt.htm

Here is a link to belt tension data from Carlisle: http://www.alliedbearings.com/downloads/dayco_carlisle_tensioning.pdf

If you don't want to read it all, pay attention to pgs. 2, 13, and14 with a phone number for customer service (sales engineer)

JIM

[truk4u]

Orren,

I'll bring a sample to Spearfish, thanks much.

Jim C - The solution is B93 instead of BX93 per the Fly Dude. That's good enough for me.

[JIM KELLER]

Tom, I have had the same problem and posted about it. The problem is the OTR compressor. The cure is a B94 belt. At some time some one loosened the compressor to install the belts and you cannot get the compressor in proper alignment with a B93 or BX93. The B94 will allow you to run the adjustment farther out on the alternator and allow proper alignment of the compressor because of the extra length. I fought the problem you are having and finally won. You will find the OTR compressor is cocked in the direction of the belt pull. It is almost impossible to see it but a straight edge laid on top of the belts in alignment with the pulley will help you see the problem. Call me if I can help.

[JIM KELLER]

Tom, There is also a one piece belt that will replace a pair of B94 or BX93 belts. Someone at one of the Rallies had replaced all the individual belts on their Bus with one piece replacements. I think you were with me when I saw it. I have not yet discovered the replacement part numbers.

[dale farley]

Jim K., Thanks for your posts. That explains why I have B94 belts on mine. I checked my spares, and I noticed that there are three B93 belts, so I assume someone was having trouble before. I suppose I should pick up 2 more of the B94 when I get a chance.

[flyu2there]

All right you Country Coachers...there is no need to touch the a/c compressor to change the belts! That's lame...all of the adjustments are on the chassis alternator. Quite frankly the belts are a nasty to change and installing a bigger belt...hey you are asking for trouble....you are near the structural limits of adjustment just to make it easier to install.
BX, DX, TX, EX. A, B, C,D or whatever belts...hey come on now, call CC, they will tell you the belt to install. The coaches were delivered with B93 Gates Belts on those pulleys, that's the way it was designed, case closed....anything else is aftermarket. Yeah, it may work or it may take a dump on you which it apparently has to many folks. I have always subscribed to two basic philosophy's....if it ain't broke, don't fix it and KISS...keep it simple stupid. Works for me....many thousands between belt changes.....

JOHN

[truk4u]

The factory recommended B93 belts will be here tomorrow and we'll see how they mount up.

I would not use the B94 on mine as the alternator adjustment is just about to it's max limit now with the shorter B93 belt.

[Jerry Winchester]

I wonder if this thread can get strung out to 5 or 6 pages? Is it a slow news day?

Asked and Answered. Let's move on for crying out loud.

[flyu2there]

I agree, it's worn me out....

[Orren Zook]

Tom, There is also a one piece belt that will replace a pair of B94 or BX93 belts. Someone at one of the Rallies had replaced all the individual belts on their Bus with one piece replacements. I think you were with me when I saw it. I have not yet discovered the replacement part numbers.

Jim/Tom,

I spoke with my Gates rep this morning and nearly all of the B series belts are available as a molded pair. The prefix for that type belt is "2/" so your B93 belt would be a 2/B93. There is about a 20% premium in the cost of the dual belt, you would be paying for the convenience $22(dual one piece) vs $17 (two individual belts).

[truk4u]

Oren,

Thanks for researching that for us. Sounds like a good way to go. Any chance you could bring one to Spearfish and I'll use it as a spare? I can call and give you a credit card number for the order.

I installed the B93's yesterday and they for sure fit the pulleys better than the BX93.

Jdub - Get over it.... This thread has nothing to do with Barbeque anyway, so why are you even reading it?:rolleyes:

John - Is that really you in the picture:eek:

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Johnnie walker black is still a good belt, especially if a matched double, :rolleyes::D

[flyu2there]

Truk....

No, this is my picture, this is mine on my recent contract with Playboy, Saudi Arabia...hope this skin flick doesn't cause heartburn for anyone....:D

[Sid Tuls]

Truk....

No, this is my picture, this is mine on my recent contract with Playboy, Saudi Arabia...hope this skin flick doesn't cause heartburn for anyone....:D

Do you stay @ Pismo Coast Villiage when you go up there? Just wondering about buying a time share or whatever you call it. Hope you might have some insight to this. Thanks

[flyu2there]

Sid,
No, I own a house on the beach, however Pismo Coast Village is , well, sort of, o.k. They have really become proud of their assets in the last few years!

John

[rfoster]

They all must be from the same family. They all favor.

[Sid Tuls]

Sid,
No, I own a house on the beach, however Pismo Coast Village is , well, sort of, o.k. They have really become proud of their assets in the last few years!

John

Yeah, about to the tune of $32,000.00 If ya hear of anything on the market or in the local paper let me know. Thanks

[JIM KELLER]

Jim/Tom,

I spoke with my Gates rep this morning and nearly all of the B series belts are available as a molded pair. The prefix for that type belt is "2/" so your B93 belt would be a 2/B93. There is about a 20% premium in the cost of the dual belt, you would be paying for the convenience $22(dual one piece) vs $17 (two individual belts).

Orren, Thanks, I have been wanting that number for some time now. I want to replace my B94 with a moulded pair and my AX belts with a moulded trio !

[charlesebrownjr]

I'll keep this going just a bit longer! On my 99 CC the B93 belts will last longer than the BX's for sure. B93's are real hard to get on my pulleys so I tried the B94, which were too long but were easier to get on. You all are right about the alternator adjustment being close to it limit, but the problem with mine was I had about another 1" or 1 1/2" adjustment left but the bolt going through the swiveling (do hickey) with the lock nuts on it was too short to use the extra adjustment I had left. So I made a 3" longer bolt to push the alternator further out to use it's maximum adjustment. The 94's are a lot easier to get on now.

[Orren Zook]

Gates is still showing the B-94 in their current catalog/price sheet, it runs about $13 plus shipping.

[JIM KELLER]

A word of caution on this Belt Thread. I installed a one piece belt on my three belt pulley set up. I can't explain why but I observed a harmonic type vibration or annoyance through the Bus at certain RPM's. Removed them and reinstalled the original three individual belts and the annoyance went away. Pete Petree installed a one piece belt on his three belt set up and it promptly allowed his fan clutch to hit his radiator causing many dollars worth of damage.

I also tried a molded one piece 2/B94 on my alternator/a.c. compressor pulleys. I thought I noticed an increase in heat on my a.c. clutch pulley so I used my infrared temp sensor to check [ heat is our enemy. ] I replaced the one piece with two B94 belts and the temperature difference was almost 30 degrees.

After a fun trip through the " Belt World " I am now back to all individual belts. Thought this information might be helpful to some of you experimentalist's out there.

[Pete]

AMEN! I have the repair bill to prove it!

[JIM KELLER]

AMEN! I have the repair bill to prove it!

Sorry Pete.

[dreamchasers]

A word of caution on this Belt Thread. I installed a one piece belt on my three belt pulley set up. I can't explain why but I observed a harmonic type vibration or annoyance through the Bus at certain RPM's. Removed them and reinstalled the original three individual belts and the annoyance went away. Pete Petree installed a one piece belt on his three belt set up and it promptly allowed his fan clutch to hit his radiator causing many dollars worth of damage.

I also tried a molded one piece 2/B94 on my alternator/a.c. compressor pulleys. I thought I noticed an increase in heat on my a.c. clutch pulley so I used my infrared temp sensor to check [ heat is our enemy. ] I replaced the one piece with two B94 belts and the temperature difference was almost 30 degrees.

After a fun trip through the " Belt World " I am now back to all individual belts. Thought this information might be helpful to some of you experimentalist's out there.

I experienced the same as Jim when I tried the double and triple belts. I am now running individual belts also.

Hector

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I agree with the individual belts having had experience with both types. Having said that I think it is critical that when using the individual belts that if one needs replacement it would be advised to replace them all as a set.

My experience with belts has been excellent and despite always having spares, my belts last for years and years.