OK, back in the club again .... but need help!

[Ray Davis]

Alright. Well after the fire I had originally decided to pack it in and not replace the bus. But, after 4 months, both Kathy and I decided we missed the bus, the rallies, and the POG people way more than we really should have, so I have just placed an offer on a 2002 Marathon from FL.

The deal is pending my seeing the coach and an inspection at Prevost FL and a PDI from Marathon, but assuming all goes well, I will pull the trigger at the end of this month.

But, here's where I need your help, please!

I am trying to recoup the loss of sales tax when purchasing this unit. It turns out that if I used the coach out of CA for at least 91 days, then it isn't subject to CA use tax, which would save me about $25k. Because I have a son attending college in NY, and graduating next May, I had already planned on visiting the east coast a couple of times over the course of the next 8-9 months.

So, I'm trying to purchase the coach in FL, and use it off and on until next May when I'll drive to West Point, see graduation, and then drive it home to CA.

So, where do you come in? I need help finding places to store the coach for up to a couple months at a time. I am willing to pay storage fees, but would like it some where, preferrably inside, where it would be plugged in, and started on a regular basis while I'm on the other coast.

If anyone can offer me some help in this, I would truly appreciate it. Obviously, I haven't worked out the details of when I can come and use it, but that will depend upon where it's stored etc.

Anyway, if anyone is willing to help me, please give me a shout. PM or email to rdavis@cox.net.

Here's a couple pictures of the coach. Bus air this time! I'm not fooling around anymore! :D

Thanks in advance.
Ray

[MangoMike]

Ray,

If the mothership sells, I have room in the bus barn, with power.

Nice bus!

Mike

[dalej]

Congratulation Ray and Kathy! You so deserve to have a bus back in your family. You two have always enjoyed your others. I so glad to hear you almost have one again.

[merle&louise]

Ray & Kathy,

Nice bus, love the inside colors and booth dinette. Is it a 40 or 45?

[Alek&Lucia]

Hi Ray & Kathy,

Wishing you the best on getting the coach,

Alek, Lucia and rest of the ZOO

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Nice looking bus Kathy, and Ray. Better luck this time around!

[Ray Davis]

Thanks everyone.

Tuga - it's a 45. There isn't any 40 ft XL2's out there I've found (that I like)

Mango - OK! What can I do to help you sell that Mothership!


Seriously, if anyone is able to help me with storage (or locate storage) anywhere between FL and NY this fall/winter, I would be exceedingly greatful.

Ray

[garyde]

Hi Ray. A great looking Coach! I would suggest do some google search for RV Storage per the State you wish to store. I would think most large citys will have Storage availability. Also, make sure they have Insurance.

[jack14r]

Ray,I've been looking at that one for a few months,wondering how log it would hang around.It must have been a customer order with bus air,not many Marathons of that vintage with bus air,does it have cruse airs in the basement also?Great looking coach Ray!!!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Fantastic coach Ray. You are really going to like that OTR. I can't wait for the comments.

Why not let Jim C use your coach until you can bring it into CA? I think he will take care of it for you and it won't cost a cent. I'll bet he will even put it in his barn in western NY when he isn't using it.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Sorry Ray, the barn's not yet suitable for bus storage. :(
Interior remodeling going on by the slow do it yourself method.

JIM

[Loc]

Ray,

Congratulations on the new bus. I really like the layout and the updated headlight treatment. Glad to see that you found a replacement for your XLII. I know that I have bus withdrawl after not going somewhere in the bus for a couple of weekends. I am looking forward to seeing it.

Loc

[jello_jeep]

Good deal Ray... WB !

Jim C, take note... Ray sees bus, Ray buys bus.... Buy bus buy.. :p (sorry, couldn't resist, and thanks for the msg on antennas)

[jonnie]

Ray,

I own a storage condo in Ohio and there are units for rent. The units are 16 x 50 with 14 doors, heat and electric. I believe the going rate is $400 per month plus gas and can be rented on a monthly basis.

John

[truk4u]

Great looking bus Ray, congratulations.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Way to go Ray.

Looks a little like Jerry's on the outside.

Mango are we to assume by your response that you have a potential buyer?

[mike kerley]

Good Job Ray!

Congradulations and wishing you many happy miles.

Mike K

[rmboies]

Ray and Kathy, we are all so glad to hear that you are staying with the rest of us in POG busland! Beautiful coach, nice southwest touches and if we had an extra 50 amp plug you would certainly be welcome to park it here. You never know though, Bob may decide to sell ours and then your bus could be the only one parked in his toy barn:D Congrats on a beautiful coach!

Debi

[ajhaig]

Ray,

Looks great.

Check out Panterra Coach in northern Indiana for storage. I think they quoted me $225.00 per month - indoors, 50 amp. For that price I've seriously considered "mothballing" our coach rather then taking the HUGE hit on a sale.

We look forward to visiting with you when you come east. We have settled in Charlotte Vermont, just south of Burlington.

Regards.

AJ

[hhoppe]

Fine looking bus Ray. Great to have you nice bus folks back in a bus with us. I sent you an email describing our experiance with Ca. sales tax exemption. It did get done after a fashion. Have a great trip on the East Coast.

[Ray Davis]

Thanks for all of the complements everyone.

Harry, if you sent the email, I didn't seem to get it. A re-send would be appreciated, as I had a bit of a go-around with the BOE this morning.

SO, I think we may be changing plans slightly ...

Yes, we're still planning on getting the bus, assuming inspection comes through clean in 3 weeks! :D

As Kathy and I were kinda lying there last night, both too excited to sleep, we started discussing our options again, with respect to bus use of the next few months. It really is critical to get the sales tax exemption to keep the price tag in the region we could afford. But, as we thought about the current plan, we realized that it would be 9 months before we brought the coach home, and we wouldn't really be able to fly out to the east coast that much to make use of it (might as well spend the sales tax on airfare!)

So, I think we've tentatively decided to pick up the coach in October, hit a a water polo tournement for West Point (location still to be determined, between Philly and NY). After that we'd take a week or so heading home. Instead of bringing the bus into CA, we're going to arrange storage in AZ or NV, and visit the bus on weekends. In this way, we get to use the bus through the winter here in the southwest (which is really nice time out here), and we still get the sales tax exemption. Also we wont drive it out to NY for graduation next May (we already had airfare and hotel arranged and paid), but try instead to hit POG rally in the spring. Unfortunately we can do Spearfish because it conflcts with other pre-scheduled events. One week later would have been perfect, but thems the breaks ...


Thanks everyone for the advice as to where to store. That will come in very handy should we need to perhaps store for some period of time in the future.

We are REALLY getting excited about having a bus again! :D

Ray

[flyu2there]

I am trying to recoup the loss of sales tax when purchasing this unit. It turns out that if I used the coach out of CA for at least 91 days, then it isn't subject to CA use tax, which would save me about $25k.


Ray,


First of all, that looks like a very nice coach..................................
.
The California State Board of Equilization makes the IRS look like wimps, their secret is to hire as many ESL (English Second Language) people as possible. I swear they must be paid on commission and, if that is true, they all make handsome salaries.

True, if a motor vehicle is 91 days or older when it FIRST enters the State of California, then it MAY be exempt from Use (Sales) Tax. For years the law read 91 days then a few years back it was changed to 1 year however somehow that law did not last and it is now back at 91 days. There are pages of verbage that go along with that 91 days that people tend to overlook. First and foremost, the State Board will do all in their power to allow you to indicate that the INTENT was to avoid payment of California Use Tax; if they have one iota of evidence then you get the tax bill and a huge penalty. Certainly it can be appealed but the results are generally fruitless unless you elect to go to court, and even then it may be very difficult, not to mention costly. Truth is, if you delay bringing the vehicle into California and show up at the DMV on the 92nd day, you are done. That will immediately trigger a not so pleasant response from the Board even though the DMV will be happy to take your money for the plates. What you have to be able to show, proof positive, that your intent was to purchase the vehicle for use outside of the State of California, you opened a new business, you were going to sell Fuller Brush, no matter. At the end of the day I would wait at least one year before even thinking about bringing the coach back into SoCal. I really do speak from experience! I had to buy property in Oregon to keep my fat out of the fire!
So here's the deal. The Tax man knows exactly what most people are trying to do, avoid California Tax....I mean they probably do 15 or more of these per day. You will be thrown right into that same pot and even though, you may be as pure as rain, you are in for a ride. They will want statements of facts, invoices, fuel slips, repair bills, mileages, and most of all a very good reason why you kep't the coach out of the state.......if you are not prepared to do that, or do not have a game plan, then just pay the tax and avoid the hassle and penalties.
There are other choices out there but they all have their drawbacks as well, ask Sid about the Montana LLC and California.
My only suggestion, one that I have used and certainly does work, is to buy, rent or whatever a place in Arizona and then, get who ever you are buying the coach from to show it as a private transfer. Arizona has NO SALES tax on what is defined a casual sales between individuals. They do, however, have a hefty Use Tax when it comes from a dealer.

All the best....

[Sid Tuls]

Hey Ray & Kathy great looking coach!! I love the new front end they put on it makes it look like a 2008 at 25-30% of new cost. If I may ask do you know the cost of putting a new front end on a coach? I have a buddy here in Visalia with a 2001 Vantare and would like to do the same thing. Hope you have a great time with your new coach!!

[dalej]

Ray, I'm sure you thought of this, but Havasu City, AZ has a bunch of RV spaces to hide a expensive bus like that. You could call JJ, last I knew he had two spots at a nice park, he might make you a deal.

We picked up our bus somewhere over the border heading to Las Vegas from Orange County, CA. maybe that would be a good place to hide out.

You just have to bring it to SD and show it off!!!!

[Toy Box]

Ray, we have never met, but I do know a few folks in this club. If it will help, I have a warehouse large enough for another bus either in Colorado or Ft. Lauderdale. You are welcome to use either for a few months. The price is our going rate of No Charge, however, don't try to negotiate a better price. This is our best rate. If this helps, call me direct at 954-646-4490.

[Ray Davis]

Let's see if I can answer all of these in one!!

Toy Box, wow thank you for the great offer. I'll let you know. Current plan is to come back to AZ and use it, perhaps in Lake Havasu, but given what Tom said, I need to evaluate that.

John, here's the current plan, let me know what you think. I was planning on finding space an an RV resort in Lake Havasu area, and visiting it regularly on weekends as possible. As such I would show usage, park fees, grocery bills etc from AZ, but not necessarily a lot of traveling.

As I understand it, the BOE will send me a notice at 6 months to try and make me justify the no-tax payment. IF the coach is still out of the area at 6 months, using it as specified, what do you think, would that work? I'd also probably have at least a trip to POG rally in Oklahoma (or whereever).

IF that's not enough, I guess I could purchase a lot out where Warren has his lot in Lake Havasu RV resort. Would that be better. I would own a lot there, and my coach would be stored there (at least for 6 or more months).

It seems strange, even on the vehicles I've paid CA sales tax, I rarely used it in CA! My major trips, with the exception of two local trips were always out of state. I certainly stored it in state, but really, my driving and use was almost always out of state.

John, you mentioned intent. I will certainly read up a bit more on this, but isn't it perfectly valid to intend to use the coach outside of CA? And IF you do indeed use it outside of CA, then why isn't that sufficient, as long as I'm not storing it, simply waiting to transfer to CA. That specifically is mentioned as non-counting toward the 91 days.

There is also a second statue of the law, which is more confusing to me. And that is IF you bring the coach into the state within the 90 period, then you must prove it is outside of the state more than 1/2 of the next 6 months after it enters the state. It indicate use AND storage as valid in that case.


Sid, as for the new front end, I was told what the cost was, but I don't remember exactly. It was something between 20k and 30k to make it happen.


Ray

[BrianE]

Ray & Kathy,

It's a beauty. Your willingness to jump in their in spite of the times should be an inspiration to all of us. Oklahoma or bust.

[Lee Bornstein]

Ray:
Congratulations... Did't think you'd be without a coach this long.

Hope to see you on the road somewhere.

Interested in buying my lot at ODR in Vegas?
It would be a nice fit for your coach.

Lee

[Ray Davis]

HI Lee,

Actually, I may be interested in leasing it from you? Or a purchase, if that would help my sales tax issue.

PM or email me your phone number, and I'll give you a call tomorrow if that's OK. I had looked, but I didn't have an email for you.

Thanks,
Ray

[phorner]

Congratulations Ray.... great looking bus!

[flyu2there]

John, here's the current plan, let me know what you think. I was planning on finding space an an RV resort in Lake Havasu area, and visiting it regularly on weekends as possible. As such I would show usage, park fees, grocery bills etc from AZ, but not necessarily a lot of traveling.

As I understand it, the BOE will send me a notice at 6 months to try and make me justify the no-tax payment. IF the coach is still out of the area at 6 months, using it as specified, what do you think, would that work? I'd also probably have at least a trip to POG rally in Oklahoma (or whereever).

IF that's not enough, I guess I could purchase a lot out where Warren has his lot in Lake Havasu RV resort. Would that be better. I would own a lot there, and my coach would be stored there (at least for 6 or more months).

It seems strange, even on the vehicles I've paid CA sales tax, I rarely used it in CA! My major trips, with the exception of two local trips were always out of state. I certainly stored it in state, but really, my driving and use was almost always out of state.

John, you mentioned intent. I will certainly read up a bit more on this, but isn't it perfectly valid to intend to use the coach outside of CA? And IF you do indeed use it outside of CA, then why isn't that sufficient, as long as I'm not storing it, simply waiting to transfer to CA. That specifically is mentioned as non-counting toward the 91 days.

There is also a second statue of the law, which is more confusing to me. And that is IF you bring the coach into the state within the 90 period, then you must prove it is outside of the state more than 1/2 of the next 6 months after it enters the state. It indicate use AND storage as valid in that case.
Ray


Ray,

First of all, where will the coach be licensed/registered? I would presume that you will get a 30 day trip permit from Florida. That being said, California is not an alternative because they (DMV) requires an inspection either by the DMV or a California Law Enforcement Officer; it has to be in California. This refers back to your last paragraph, they WILL collect USE tax at registration then you can file, better said APPEAL to get it back....tough one!

Arizona is one of those states that require a valid Arizona drivers license to register a vehicle and a valid Arizona proof of insurance card. Arizona has it's own way of handling proof of insurance and insurance carriers that do business in the state are required to notify the MVD (Arizona Motor Vehicle Division) that the vehicle is insured; if they do not receive proof within 30 days of vehicle registration then you will receive a certified letter that cancels the registration. The driving license is easy, they simply exchange the California License for an Arizona License and they do it right in the office, no temporary, new AZ License immediately.

Arizona will also want to inspect the vehicle once again by the MVD or an Arizona Peace Officer; they have a form that must be completed. California bases license fee's on what one paid, Arizona uses another method, what the vehicle is worth. The AZ MVD has the NADA and there are no Prevost Conversions in that book; this is where your negotiating skills come into play. Arizona VLF fee's are as high, sometimes a bit higher than California.

As I mentioned, Arizona has NO SALES (USE) tax on casual sales between individuals. They do, however, tax at the prevailing rate if the purchase was made through a dealer, a dealer in any state.

Lake Havasu is an ok place, although a bit geriatric until Spring Break comes around, then all hell breaks loose. It's also kinda, sort of, out of the way, not exactly "freeway close"....there are a number of places from Bullhead in the North and Yuma in the South that you can park/rent/lease or buy. Should you really want to do this on the cheap, consider Quaetzite...right on the 10 and probably the fastest reach from SoCal save possibly Yuma.

Personally, I would keep it out of California for at least 6 months then bring it in with the AZ plates and wait for them to expire before going to the DMV. Any questions and inform them you maintain two residences....if its good enouh for George Bush, its good enough for you! Keep that AZ DL handy, especially on the 10 in the vicinity of Indio!

Hope that helped a bit!

[Ray Davis]

John,

Thanks for the comments. According to my research, and talking to the BOE yesterday, and talking with the DMV service in FL who will be handling this I learned:

* I can indeed register it in CA, and not pay sales tax up front. However, if I cannot meet the burden of proof 6 months later, then I am due not only the sales tax, but some hefty fines and penalties in addition.

* I was told that the VIN verification can be done in FL by an authorized person. I believe they indicated that this would be a FL officer. I did indeed purchase a car from FL dealer a couple of years ago, and I didn't have to do a VIN verification.


There does seem to be a bit of a disagreement between the DMV service and the BOE however. The BOE wants the CA registration before issuing the BOE-111 form (for sales tax), but the DMV wants the BOE form first.


Anyway, all this I've decided to pay the sales tax, but I plan on following the letter of the law, and requesting a refund at the 6 month point when I haven't yet brought it into CA. Actually there are two provisions, I can supposedly keep it out 91 days (probably should be much longer), or I can bring it into the state, and then keep it out of the state more than 1/2 of the following 6 months. I may opt for that. When I do request the refund, I will want to be able to say that it is out of state, HAS been out of state, and is STILL out of state (with appropriate documentation of course)

Hopefully that suffice. If it doesn't then I'm out a chunk of sales tax change (a large chunk), but at least I can't be fined. And if I decide the keeping it outside the state is too difficult, then I'll just bring it in.

I am purchasing direct from Marathon, so the AZ thing wouldn't work for me. Seems like I'd still have to pay sales tax in AZ. At least if I do purchase a lot, I can try to justify the refund that I'm purchasing my retirement spot. I'm getting close to that age!

Ray

[flyu2there]

Ray,

That's good. Probably the safest way to go however, one word of caution and that has to do with a vehicle being out of state. Az is probably the safest as there are thousands of out of state vehicles however the letter of the law reads something like 90 days before AZ registration required.

The cross talking computers have become a two way street...AZ may want their taxes too unless they have a tax treaty with California. That's one to research on the Arizona MVD site.

As mentioned, there are sooooo many out of state vehicles in AZ it is probably a non event but still merits a bit of research.

John

[Jon Wehrenberg]

A bullet proof solution to all of this is to create a Delaware Corporation to buy and own the coach. There are any number of registered agents and you never have to set foot in the state.

Then create a business purpose for the corporation. Can you be an independent contractor having something to do with computers or can you do consulting work for campgrounds, or can you do any work or business that generates revenue and requires travel?

If you can do the above then you can select a domicile that has favorable sales tax and registration fees. That minimizes your initial tax exposure, but the real advantage (and it is worth thousands annually) is all expenses associated with the purchase and operation of the coach become an expense to the Delaware corporation, which as a Chapter S corporation flows its losses through to your personal tax return.

The key is having a legitimate purpose for the bus. Even if you only use it to travel to seminars such as I used to do for several years. I had the entire seminar display in the bay along with handouts. All of that was impossible to carry on a commercial flight and the specialized nature of the displays were such that if lost in shipment I was totally screwed. I kept accurate and detailed logs. I did personal travel, but as long as the trip was for a business purpose and the bus had to go to a specific city, it did not matter to the IRS if I stayed and enjoyed the city for a few extra days as long as the meals and campground expenses beyond what was required for the business purpose were not shown as expenses.

A few ideas...contact the big rig folks and ask if you can do evaluations. Contact Woodalls, KOA or any franchise to see if you can do campground inspections. Write articles for magazines that require travel to different cities. Ask your employer for business travel assignments. Get compensated an amount equal to a plane ticket and lodging. Design software for the campground industry and make every campground stay a sales call.

Remember, doing it this way means work, but the advantage is that the tax savings pays for about half the cost of the coach over about 5 years. You may never see the money com back to you in the form of a rebate, but you check to the IRS will be a lot smaller.

[flyu2there]

Jon,

Not bullit proof, maybe a smaller target. Ray is a California resident and as such even with a Delaware corporation, even an S corporation, is subject to a minimum California Corporate Tax. The solution, with all the same bennies and far less hassle is the LLC......its just a pass through. No meetings, no minutes and far less tax exposure (corporate); we run several LLC's and disposed of the corporations.


John

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You are right. I am behind the times because we used the sub-S corps before LLCs came into vogue.

The key however is to get a legitimate business purpose. Even if it doesn't make any net income, as long as it has some earnings or can demonstrate the relationship between the business and future earnings the savings are enormous. Depreciating a coach like Rays, plus expensing all operating expenses can be a tax savings in the mid to high five figures.

Absent a business purpose any Corp or LLC, including those Montana ones is tax evasion whether it is just to avoid sales taxes or to allow capture of all bus expenses.

[Darl-Wilson]

Great looking ride! Welcome back too.

One other option no one mentioned is Nevada. Here a private party sale is not subject to any sales tax. "Sales Taxes are not collected on private party vehicle sales that occurred on or after January 1, 2006. (http://www.dmvnv.com/nvreg.htm#private)" ODR in LV would be a great place to store it and most of the same pluses made by FLYBY John about AZ also apply in NV. Just a thought

I have a close relative that uses my address for several nefarious activities. His coach is registered in a Montana LLC, he lives in WA but owns no property there, has other property in CA, OR, and God know where else. He votes in NV and has an NV license (class B) and get mail here. All I know is he tells me he avoids lots of taxes and it is all legal.

Oh, BTW, please tell Fred Green at Marathon, FL hi for me. We met some nice folks at that store. They were very good to us when we picked up our Prevo that was stored there.

[dale farley]

Beautiful bus Ray, inside and out. I know you will enjoy it.

[flyu2there]

Fred Green screws his socks on in the morning, so does his kid that works for Bleakley in Atlanta!

[Darl-Wilson]

Fred Green screws his socks on in the morning, so does his kid that works for Bleakley in Atlanta!

So John, I guess ol' Fred made a homerun on you at one time or another?

His wife, who sells coaches online, had the one we bought listed. It was stored at Marathon, FL. Even though Fred had nothing to do with the deal he, for no charge, went through coach with Martha and I for several hours. The folks at Marathon answered all of our questions and even sent a FEDEX package for us. Oh, Fred even talked the seller of our coach into installing new chassis batteries. Other than that I don't know much about Fred. I'll bet you do..Share it with me in Spearfish.

[Ray Davis]

I'm not sure what "screws his socks on" means, but Fred fought an incredible fight for me to get a very good deal on my new coach. To me, he was the epitome of a perfect salesman to work with. I cannot speak highly enough of him.

Thanks for the info Darl, that is something to consider.

Ray

[Sid Tuls]

Ray, Did the map quest thing there are two Lake Forest in Calif. I take it your in the Irvine area.

[Ray Davis]

Hi Sid,

Yes, I'm down in the Irvine area. Ken Zittrer (Bluevost) is around the corner from me, and Mike Simmon's is about 5 miles south. Kevin Erion is up near Disneyland, and Steve Bennett is about 15 miles south in Dana Point.

We've gotten together several times with POG members passing through, and would love to do the same.

I've got a 50A circuit out front of my house, and could let you do an overnight if necessary (I have CCR's, so no long terms stays unfortunately).

Next time you're coming through, please give us a shout. Mira Loma is about 45 minutes away (give or take) for all of us.

Ray

[Coloradobus]

Ray, Kathy,

Looks good with new front face, congratulations on well bought bus.
We have friends who have lusted over that coach since they saw it two years ago.
We, also maybe going to Florida to see a coach that Marathon has.
If our travels and events conincide, we may see you there.
Until then, I need to work hard to get ours sold.:D

[Ray Davis]

hi jim. Been out at tradeshow all week so not online like normal. We will be flying out to FL next Thursday, Aug 28th. Let us know if that matches your timing. Will be there through Sat.