Engine Coolant

[meandmyprs]

Should I have the red or green in my 2004 CC? It has the green in it but I am going to have the cooling system flushed, etc. this week and was curious if I should put the green back in or go with the red??

Thanks in Advance

Brent

[garyde]

Hi Brent. Check this out.
http://www.detroitdiesel.com/Public/brochures/7SE298.pdf

[meandmyprs]

Gary, perfect, thank you.

Brent

[Ray Davis]

I know that DD recommends their Power Cool product (the red stuff), however I've found that the Prevost shops seem to all use the green stuff intead. I've been told to never mix the two.

It would be nice to get a real final answer on this. IF DD recommends red, why does Prevost seem to use green. At least in both Mira Loma and Dallas, in both of my coaches green was used.

Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I don't know about the mixing, or if the colors mean anything, and I have not seen any admonitions about mixing different types in the Detroit Diesel PDF file on coolants.

What is stressed by Detroit is the chemical characteristics of the coolant.

http://www.detroitdiesel.com/Public/brochures/7SE298.pdf

That is the file and I won't try to repeat all that it contains, but it is a comprehensive guide to what is acceptable in our engines. I know there are coolants that meet the Detroit spec that are undoubtedly cheaper than what I pay for the Detroit Diesel brand coolant. In the context of the cost of an engine or serious repairs or replacement of a radiator I will stick with what Detroit recommends and adhere religiously to the maintenance schedule.

[Ray Davis]

I was told by the service manager at Prevost Mira Loma (and a mechanic as well), that red and green should not be mixed. And that when switching, you need to completely drain the system.

I'll try to get ahold of my DD buddy to see if I can get a better ruling on that.

I had gone out and purchased a bunch of the red stuff from DD, only to not use it, at the suggestion of Prevost.

Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The only prohibition I see in the document Gary listed originally is to not mix NOAT and OAT formulations. This in simple terms is coolant for highway use with coolant formulated for marine use.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Has the industry overly confused the issue with all these incompatible choices or what.

Question, that stuff that comes from DD with the additive already incorporated; is that stuff green and if not can it be mixed with green???????

IMO I would want to run something that could be easily replaced on the road after any possible leak. Green standard life with low silicone.

On a side note this stuff is Toxic (never brakes down) and what happens to it over usage is it gets dirty. When you look at new antifreeze it is transparent and when you are draining it it has become jaded. Well if you let the containers of the used stuff set for a spell (a month or so) all the particulate matter settles to the bottom. At that point without shaking them you can pour it off transparent again leaving the dirt at the bottom. Truck supplies have extender you can add to it or you can make all your neighbors very happy and give it away.

I used to drop the coolant in the Pete every other year but also reused it a second time (as described above) before giving it away.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Coolant does not have to come from Detroit, nor does it have to be changed according to the DD schedule if you can believe the claims. Some coolants such as Peak Final Charge have great possibilities:

http://www.peakantifreeze.com/finalchargeext.htm

The point is that if you do an internet search you will find numerous options for coolant in our engines. The difficult part is learning or understanding if it meets the DD requirements, what maintenance is required, and its need or lack of need for additives.

Coolant is not a big expense when it comes to the total cost of running our engines., But by being shortsighted and not recognizing the total role coolant plays serious problems can occur. Our engines can literally perforate the cylinder liners from the rear if the coolant is not the correct type. Our radiators can be blocked internally if the coolant is not the correct type or is not maintained. Our coolant not only transfers heat but the chemistry protects the engine, the water pump and the radiator.

Despite fanatical adherance to the coolant maintenance requirements I had to replace a radiator core on my 8V92 coach because the radiator plugged internally in addition to losing a lot of its fins from corrosion from road salt. I am not very much aware of coolant and engine temps. It is a PITA to deal with coolant. It is poisonous so I cannot have our dogs anywhere near when I am servicing it. It generates vast amounts of waste coolant that has to be taken for disposal. I have to burp the bus for a period of time after changing it. But the upside is if the right coolant is used and the engine is protected the benefits are considerable

[merle&louise]

Jon,

How many years did your 8V92 radiator last?

[BrianE]

After reading this thread I googled "Antifreeze colors" and found the following short article which explains the basic difference in coolants based on color. In short, green, purple, orange and blue coolants can be mixed without concern. I had no clue there are so many choices. Red, (Extended Life) however, when mixed with the others, loses its extended life benefits and causes filter issues.

Two years ago we had our 8V overhauled. The OH shop recommended we use Texaco ESI/ECI Extended Life Coolant which provides the benefits of not requiring change for 600,000 miles with an Extender additive at 300,000 miles. Additionally the ESI coolant is DD approved for 2 and 4 stroke engines and uses non SCA treated filters. Sounded good to me so that's what we did.

The traps that lurk when using ExtLife are the possibility of having non ESI coolant and SCA filters installed during a service and not catching the mistake, but that's another story. SCA filters installed with ExtLife coolant, according to the test lab I sent a sample to, can result in a high phosphate concentration in the engine which promotes corrosion. Luckily the filters were changed before the phosphate level required draining and replacing the coolant.

http://schoolbusmechanic.blogspot.com/2007/11/diesel-coolant-what-color-should-you.html

Bottom line here appears to be that we should know whether Extended Life coolant is in our engines. Most colors seem to be compatible. I for one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between purple, red and orange colored anti-freeze. Due to the above issues, I read another article which said some fleet truck companies have stopped using extended life coolant due to the confusion it can create.

Ray: According to the above info, PowerCool Plus should be the red stuff. Is that right?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I pass the airman's color blindness test all the time. But the Detroit Diesel coolant I use is red in color, but when viewed through the viewing port in my surge tank it looks green to me. When I drain it, it is still red in color.

But there is nothing to indicate it is extended life. Nada, nothing. Not a word on the container.

The product is Power Cool (not to be confused with Power Cool Plus which is an extended life coolant).

I think for one of our seminars we need a Detroit Diesel guru, not from a DD dealer but a factory guy who really knows his stuff. I say that because my DD dealer talks people away from the Power Cool Plus because they say since it is a pre-mix all you are paying extra for is water showing they do not understand the difference between the two.

[Ray Davis]

I received this word from my friend at DD.


Different manufactures of coolant have different colors. The key is the
base make up of the coolant. There are 2 basic groups.

Ethylene-Glycol: This is the basic coolant. It is good for 1-2 years.
Organic Acid: Some manufactures say this is good for life or 500,000 miles
or...... That is great if you don't have a problem (leak, exhaust gases in
coolant, ect). This come in two types NOAT and OAT (with nitrites and
without), this depends on the engine and the amount of aluminum in the
engine components). If this coolant gets mixed with Ethylene Glycol (EG),
the entire system needs to be treated as if it is 100% EG. In other words,
it is NOT good for life.

You will here other terms like Propylene Glycol, this is sold as an
environmentally friendly coolant but it does not cool as good as EG.



He also forwarded a PDF file, which seems at first glance to be very similar to the linked file from earlier in this thread.

Brian, acoording to the chart in the file he sent, PowerCool Plus is EG + Water + OAT. The doc goes on to read that OAT is a corrosion inhibitor and require less maintenance over the useful life of the engine. The cooling system should be equipped with a "blank" coolant filter, or filter may be omitted.


I do believe that the PowerCool Plus is the red stuff, but I believe that Prevost is putting in standard EG coolant when they service our buses. Bottom line, that ruins the extended life provided by the OAT coolant. So, the question is, how to determine what's being put in the system, or even better to determine what is current IN a system. I assume based upon what we've read here that the reason the tech warned about "mixing" is that it will render an extended life into a standard-life coolant.

Strangely enough, when I spoke to Marathon, where my last bus was serviced (Dallas), they indicated in their services, they generally do not replace coolant, however, just top it off, and check the pH with a filter strip.

Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

We clearly need a comprehensive seminar. What we want to avoid are OWTs (old wive's tales) because our engines and cooling systems are very sensitive to coolant and the proper maintenance of the coolant.

[Ray Davis]

Another update from my friend at DD:


Power Cool - This is EG/water and a SCA(Supplimental Coolant Additive -
package that protects the metal). This is good for 2 years in your
application. The more mile you put on, the faster the SCAs burn off.

Power Cool Plus - This is EG/Water and OAT (Organic Acid Technology
additive package). This is good for 4 years in your application.

DDC does not sell a OAT coolant, only an OAT SCA.

Texaco and others sell OAT coolants, don't use any OAT coolant.

Most likely they installed Power Cool. If it has been 2 years, change the
coolant and try the Power Cool Plus, if it is not more then twice the Power
Cool price.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Excellent information Ray, and I hope we can expand and develop this further. With respect to Power Cool, we all have spin on coolant conditioners and they are supposed to maintain our SCAs. So if the SCAs are consumed the filter maintains them as needed. But what about other coolants? What about other coolants using other chemistry? Whe should we use the filters, when should we not, what additives are actually bad as opposed to not necessary?

We alone ultimately are responsible for our coaches, and unlike a gross error like what was done to Harry's coach and in which the responsible party can be easily identified, what happens if someone servicing our coach today does something to the coolant by adding something, or not adding something, or using an inappropriate material? It may take months or years to have the damage appear, and when that happens it is impossible to go back to the guilty party and have them own up to the error, and certainly not stand behind it.

It is sad when the so called professionals are lacking the necessary intimate knowledge to keep our coolant and the cooling system in perfect shape.

[BrianE]

It appears we can all agree there is a huge amount of gray mixed in with the green, red, etc. Thanks Ray, for the Power Cool info. Your comment regarding the Prevost Service policy is exactly what I encountered in Nashville. When I informed the service tech that our bus had extended life coolant he assured me that their coolant was compatible with anything. It wasn't until I returned home that I did some research and found that not only was the green stuff not compatible, their addition of SCA filters could have caused accelerated corrosion. To Prevost credit, when I called Bruce at Nashville and explained what I had learned he told me to keep him informed and that Prevost would take care of any problems. Potentially, we were looking at replacing the coolant due to high phosphates. A chemical analysis showed no harm done. I replaced the SCA filters with blanks and will use extended life test strips as a part of regular service.

E-mailed Skiffer this morning and volunteered to try and line up a coolant expert from DD to make a presentation at Spearfish. Interestingly, Caterpillar seems to be the experts in OAT extended life coolants and my search for an analysis took me to their lab and to their test strip system. Will talk to their tech support folks also. Great thread!

[Ray Davis]

One thing I would find interesting is some pictures of the coolant filter location, and the two types of filters (if you still have them).

How do you tell a "blank" filter from an SCA filter? Where are the filters located on a standard coach? Is it different from 8v to s60?

Just trying to close the loop here ....

Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

On our coaches a "blank" is not necessary. Just shut down the valves that are there for changing filters. That stops flow of coolant to and from the filters.

[truk4u]

Ray,

A blank is just a filter, no time release chemicals inside.

[BrianE]

On Friday we had a seminar here at Spearfish on engine coolants which I will attempt to summarize. Todd Moe who is the operations manager of BG Oil Distributors in Rapid City, SD was kind enough to make a presentation for us which included good information concerning modern diesel engine oil and fuel characteristics as well as helping us understand some of the mysteries of the coolant choices we have for our Detroit engines.

Some of the coolant basics that Todd related to us follows:

There are three different choices we have when purchasing engine coolants. All are ethylene-glycol based products. Of the three, only two are suitable for use in our Detroit engines. The most common coolants we see at NAPA and Wal-Mart are for use in automobile engines, they are not classed as Heavy Duty coolants and should not be used due to their high mineral content which produces scaling and deposits in diesel engines. If the container doesn't say Heavy Duty for diesel engines, don't use it.

We have two choices in Heavy Duty coolants:

1. The most common are SCA (Supplemental Coolant Additive) type coolants. Proper chemical balance with SCA coolant is checked by the use of test strips which are available at Detroit, Cummins and Caterpillar engine dealers and repair shops. The addition of SCA additive filters when necessary assures the prevention of pitting and corrosion in wet sleeve engines. SCA additive coolants should be drained and flushed approximately every two years or 250,000 miles.
2. Extended Life coolants which are relatively new. They are also ethylene-glycol based coolants however they do not use SCA additives. They are very low in silicates, oxidants, and phosphates. They don't create scale and deposits in diesel engines over time. They can typically be used with one life extending additive (not SCA) that will assure their effectiveness for between 600,000 and 1 million miles depending on the claims of the manufacturer. In order to be assured you are purchasing a true Extended Life coolant it should be labeled as an ECI compliant product. Chevron, Caterpillar, and Chevron/Texaco produce ECI compliant products.

There are some common misconceptions and errors made in the use of coolants:

The color of a coolant does not determine its characteristics. While extended life coolants are red in color, you should be aware that non-extended life coolants can be red or a shade of red or purple also. There are no green coolants which are ECI compliant extended life products. Whether a coolant is long life should be determined by it's designation as an ECI specification coolant. If its not an ECI coolant, you can't be sure it's actually an extended life coolant.

NOTE: While Detroit Power Cool PLUS is an extended life coolant, due to the fact that the ECI standard was developed by Caterpillar, Detroit does not claim their coolant is ECI compliant. Note also that both Power Cool non-extended life coolant and Power Cool PLUS Extended Life Coolant are both red in color.

While all ethylene-glycol based coolants can be mixed, they are not necessarily compatible. IE. When SCA and extended life coolants are mixed or the wrong filter is installed, the long life feature of the coolant is lost. When changing filters, make sure SCA charged filters are used only as necessary after the use of a test strip and only with non-extended life SCA type coolant. Use only blank filters for a filter change with ECI compliant Extended Life coolant. In other words, don't allow Prevost or anyone else tell you their coolant is compatible with "all coolants" or that SCA filters are "standard".

Be aware of the type coolant you have installed in your coach and make sure the correct coolant is added for topping up and that the correct filter is installed. If you don't know what type coolant is in your bus you should treat it like a conventional SCA additive coolant. Since these coolants should be drained and changed every two years, you should consider taking advantage of the excellent protection offered by switching to an extended life coolant when you do a normal drain and replacement. Be sure to drain the system completely when making this change. Extended Life coolant manufacturers require that at least 80% of your system capacity must be filled with Extended Life in order for it to be effective.

For additional information concerning Heavy Duty coolants, the following links may further help clear up any confusion: http://www.chevrondelo.com/en/products/coolantantifreeze/default.asp, and http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/JAI/PAGES/286.htm.

[phorner]

Thanks for the summary post, Brian. Very informative and clearly illustrates the significant differences.

Sure wish I could have heard it first hand at the rally though..... sounds like everyone is having a great time!