Service

[Loc]

There are some of us Prevost owners who rely on third parties to do the repairs and maintenance on our buses. Jon has been doing some inspection and service work on my former 1992 XL for the new owners. Unforunately, I have learned that notwithstanding my willingness to spend the money (and actually spending the money) to keep the bus in what I thought was tip top shape, the quality of service that I was receiving was less than adequate. Jon would say incompetent at best. I have service provided by several different providers (three in Houston and Prevost in Dallas) so I want to research the specific issues before I cast any stones. Jon can provide more detail, but some of it has to do with repairs that were made incorrectly (with potentially catastrophic outcomes) and general maintenance that was not performed. Given my schedule it will take a few weeks to dig everything out and research it. I also want to talk to the service providers prior to posting any results, but I will post what I find.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Now that Loc has gone public I will reveal some of the detail regarding what has been found.

First we found that despite Loc's efforts to have regularly scheduled maintenance performed, all those responsible failed to do even the most basic tasks. There were more grease fittings invisible, under long term accumulations of grease and road grit than were visible. This was a clear indication lube jobs were either not performed, or only partially performed.

The adjusters on the slack adjusters (Loc's coach had manual adjusters on the tag and steer axles) were frozen. His brakes had not been adjusted in a long time.

One of the hub seals had been leaking so much, and for so long that at least a pound of grease, grit, sand and crud had built up in the inner drive axle wheel. The brake drum and shoes were glazed with grease. He could not possibly have had braking ability on that axle. With the poorly adjusted brakes and the glazed drive axle shoes a panic stop would have been impossible.

There was evidence everywhere of sloppy work. Flat washers used where lock washers were required. Stripped nuts. Built up dirt and crud indicating that if the coach was supposed to be getting regular lubes a lot of the work was just not being performed.

But the most significant and serious problem found when replacing the drive axle hub seal was that the outer axle nut did not have the safey tabs to lock it in position. That nut was free to loosen, and if it had Loc would have experienced the separation of the wheels, hub, brake drum and axle from the coach.

The coach is almost reassembled and Eric and Deb now have a fine coach with everything brought back to new condition. I want all to be aware that the random comments on this forum about lousy repairs and shoddy worksmanship are serious and that unless POG members have absolute trust in their maintenance facility it is critical that they take the responsibility to verify the work has been done completely and properly. It is one thing to forget a grease fitting, but it is something else entirely to improperly assemble something jeapardizing safety.

[dalej]

This is a great thread, everyone on this forum should read between the lines and realize that when you hand your bus over to someone else you should follow up the visit with an inspection of your own when you get home.

But how do I know what to look for you might ask. If after a trip, you park your bus on the proper bus supports in your building. Then at some point before your next trip out you will have to get under your bus and personally inspect the bottom side of your bus.

You will learn so much from the bottom side of a bus.

[BrianE]

While following Dale's suggestions is doubtless the most effective way to assure ourselves that we are getting what we pay for, the truth is not everyone is inclined to get under the bus.

Whether not having the facilities, the time, or maybe a touch of claustrophobia in rare cases, getting under the machine on jacks/support stands for some of us just isn't going to happen. The next best alternative is to get involved with your mechanic. One of the best perks that the Prevost Service Centers offer is free access to the maintenance area. Take advantage of the privilege. Ask questions, when having routine service done, have a look at the lubrication charts found on your rear or driver bay doors. Come to the facility with an idea of what is going to be accomplished. The maintenance manual can be downloaded from the Prevost website. http://technicalpublications.prevostparts.com/en/pub.asp# Most of the maintenance procedures are described in the manual and take very little time to review. When the work is completed, ask the shop foreman to help you review the work done. In my experience they are happy to do so or when busy, will assign an experienced man to help you inspect the job.

I learn something every time I have had maintenance done at Prevost. Mostly I have learned to try and ask the right questions. A for instance would be that when recently informed my king pins needed replacement (estimated $2500.00 :eek:) at the Nashville facility, I should have asked about the criteria used for that recommendation. I accepted the word and experience of the mechanic. I SHOULD have asked to review the Maintenance Manual with the foreman. The criteria for this procedure doesn't trust to opinion, it uses measured parameters and should have been checked with a dial indicator.

Jon's discovery of poor maintenance and excessive greasing of the slack adjusters on Eric and Deb's coach is something that should concern all of us. A lube job and brake adjust performed by an inexperienced technician can easily render a brake useless and it can happen in one trip to the lube rack. Typically, the lube rack is a starting position in most shops and unless the technician has had some good training or is watched by an experienced hand, a slippery downhill trend can be started.

Dale is right. This is a terrific thread. The experience we share in learning about our magic carpets is invaluable. I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to my own knowledge bank...even Loc :D

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Not in a million years would I as an owner think to pull an axle after hub seals have been replaced to verify the outer safety nut is secured with the proper part. There is some level of trust required when turning our coaches over to someone else for repairs.

But.....I get to talk to a lot of people contemplating the purchase of a coach and it absolutely blows my mind that in almost every case there is no string of maintenance records. Loc has them and he can determine what facility and when his hubs were incorrectly installed. Using his records he is in a position to discuss this very serious issue with the owner or manager to hopefully prevent it from ever happening again. It is his decision if he wants to go public and name the faciliies.

So I suspect the average owner is not going to be in a position to determine when something seriously wrong has been done via an inspection, but I am strongly agreeing with Brian that as owners I think it is vital to stand shoulder to shoulder with the mechanic or manager and review what was done to the point if necessary of reviewing the shop manual and verifying if critical tasks were performed and they were performed correctly.

I know of two POG members who have recently experienced serious problems as a result of hub seal replacement. One had a set of bearings cooked and then damage to the coach because it had to go up on a trailer. The other one had continuing leaks and ultimately had the axle (the face of which got bent), bearings and hub seals replaced after repeated attempts to correct problems which were the result of an improper repair.

There are others out there that have been suffering at the hands of poor repair facilities or mechanics.

I can only recommend from this recent experience that as owners you develop a strong degree of cynicism and, if permitted, review the repair manual and verify with the mechanic or managers that everything has been done in accordance with the book, that you advise them you are keeping notes and retaining all records, and that you expect all work done to the standards implied by the $100 an hour charge.

I also suggest that Ken Z's method of recording step by step what was done and when the work started and when it ended and when the mechanic did other tasks not related to the coach also be done.

Forget the pleasant personalities. Look for a shop that is open to your questions, understands you will not accept second class work, and that if you find errors or shortcuts taken you will demand compensation. These buses are fairly tolerant of abuse, especially at the hands of idiots, but not in all situations and not forever. I wish I could understand why in the last few years we are hearing of so many serious errors or problems getting quality service.

Finally, one thing I learned in aviation is that if I want a comprehensive job done at annual inspections I take the plane to different inspectors. One inspector may have a focus on one part of the plane or systems, and another may view the plane from a different perspective and catch things the previous inspector overlooked. And they love pointing out the other guy's shortcomings.

[Danss]

Jon, do you know the number of grease fittings underneath? An idea of the number would give me the knowledge to get under and be with the mechanic at next oil/filter change. Thanks, Dan

[Loc]

Thanks Brian, it was a very small contribution.

[Kenneth Brewer]

Jon Wehrenberg, or anyone having direct knowledge/experience;

Do you have a recommended length (height) of proper chassis support stands/blocks to fit under the chassis support/jack points, please? I haven't found that dimension, and I have only begun reviewing the manuals, so I guess I am a bit lazy, if you have this info, I would appreciate it.

These blocks would be placed at the proper chassis points either at 'normal' ride height, or when the bus chassis is manually raised to max height.

Thanks either way.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dan....The number of fittings may vary with the coach. I think an IFS coach will have a number different than my straight axle coach. A disk brake coach has a different number of fittings than a drum brake coach. But there is access to the number of fittings for your coach via a page in the owner's manual that shows graphically all the lube points such as fluids and zerk fittings. I think that diagram is also available via the Prevost Car web site. I know the recommended maintenance schedule in both miles and time is available for download.

I have learned however that with the exception of suspension system bushings, if it moves underneath it has a grease fitting.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Kenneth, The support stand dimensions were 14" for the front support points on an XL and XLII.

The rear support stands were 13" for a XL, and 12" for an XLII.

At least that was the dimensions they were made to and there was a little room for shim spacers. The bus was to be fully raised on the suspension for these to work beneath the coach.

You must use supports adequate for the weight, and those supports must be placed under the body (chassis) support points as shown on the Prevost drawing.

[hhoppe]

Series 60 Engine in 1999 Chasis: I need to know the location of the Motor Number Better yet the California Motor Vehicle Div. needs to know for registration purposes. The final item in the long project of getting the bus registered in the Golden State. I know it's golden because they nailed us $ 1,999.00 for registration including a just added county fuel tax of $3.00. This after getting a sales tax exemption of $20+K. This is no state to retire in.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Harry, on my coach the engine number and build date is on an aluminum plate mounted or glued on the electrical box door above the engine.

My coach build sheet also has the engine number.

What does the Golden state do when you wear out the engine and get a reman with a new number?

[Ray Davis]

I know it's golden because they nailed us $ 1,999.00 for registration including a just added county fuel tax of $3.00

How did you get off without sales tax (excuse me USE tax). When I registered my coach it was 7.75% of the purchase price of the coach. The $2000 registration feel paled in comparison to the sales tax.

Ray

[hobobimmer]

Jon, do you know the number of grease fittings underneath? An idea of the number would give me the knowledge to get under and be with the mechanic at next oil/filter change. Thanks, Dan

As Jon mentioned, this info and location of each fitting is shown in picture form and then listed following the picture in your Owners Manual. I copied the picture and the list of grease fittings so I could carry them under the bus and check them off as we greased a fitting. That way I didn't get greasy fingerprints on my original Owners Manual.

In the picture, each fitting has a corresponding number and a line drawn to the location of the fitting. Some take a bit of searching to find, but we've found nearly all. The list details what each fitting is for.

Best part of this process is Deb holds the grease gun connection to the fitting, and I put the grease in. She's looking for grease to come out where it is supposed to, watching with a light. Some fittings require only a "kiss" of grease. "Kiss" is a technical word I learned this week, meaning only a little bit. My job is to use the grease gun. Your Owners Manual picture and list will also specify type of grease to use (e.g. multi-purpose or high temp, etc.) Makes for a great family activity, perhaps rivaling vacation. Just kidding on the vacation comparison.

Has been wonderful experience with Jon Wehrenberg coaching and doing so much on our bus. I believe I did 4.5 air bags on my own, and he did 1.5. We've replaced six rear air bags. I changed oil, filter, almost done with lubrication according to chart. Changed transmission filter and oil. Changed differential oil. Have drained but not yet replaced coolant and coolant conditioning filters. Changed air filter. Changed primary and secondary fuel filters. He replaced two tag brake chambers (Type 16) and two drive brake chambers (Type 3036). Took front wheels off myself (without Jon present, big day for me). Deb and I have both scraped lots of baked on grime/grease from underneath. Deb did the grease cleanings of the inside of brake drums and shoes, and wheels. Deb thinks she might offer to host a "Shoe Seminar" for the ladies at next POG rally we attend. Still more for us to do, but so neat to make progress and learn.

All this for a guy (me) with no real mechanical experience, with instruction from a guy (Jon) with lots of it. Hope this post is not too off topic, but we're proud of accomplishments, and so thankful to Jon for his expert guidance.

eric and debbie faires
huntsville, TN

[garyde]

Hi Eric and Debbie. Great job, you should be proud! Not and easy task.

[hhoppe]

Thanks jon, the coach is still in Reno so I'm sorry i could not look for it. We are looking forward to having it closer to home after the registration is complete.
Ray after purchasing the coach out of state we licensed it out of state and used it out of state for a period of over a year. It still hasn't been brought to CA. According to the laws of CA this action allows us to register here with no sales tax due. It was not purchased here. We applied for and recived a tax exempt certificate from the state board of equalization in sacramento and presented it to DMV and registered it. I have to get the coach serial # and engine number verified by a peace officer and my plates will be given to me. We took receipts from all of our out of state activities and the Montana title and dated bill or sale and presented them to the Board of equalization. They examined them and issued the tax exempt certificate. All this was done according to CA law.

[rickdesilva]

All this for a guy (me) with no real mechanical experience, with instruction from a guy (Jon) with lots of it. Hope this post is not too off topic, but we're proud of accomplishments, and so thankful to Jon for his expert guidance.

Eric tell the truth did Debbie do most of the work?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Debbie is a real sport. She does all (and I mean all) the dirty work and some of the grease such as from the leaky hub seals was nasty. She has the wheels sparkling.

The shoe seminar she wants to put on at the next rally for the ladies is how to remove the grease and glaze from shoes. Brake shoes.

Eric is clearly in management. I don't believe he got dirty.

[truk4u]

Eric,

Nice job... Did you get your gloves dirty?:p

[Ray Davis]

Good job Harry! I'm sure you saved a bundle being able to do that!

Ray

[hobobimmer]

Debbie is a real sport. She does all (and I mean all) the dirty work and some of the grease such as from the leaky hub seals was nasty. She has the wheels sparkling.

The shoe seminar she wants to put on at the next rally for the ladies is how to remove the grease and glaze from shoes. Brake shoes.

Eric is clearly in management. I don't believe he got dirty.

Jon lies some, but I guess you guys all know that. Yes, I got dirty, daily for many days. Today removed and put on Type 24 brake chambers in front, and found a grease fitting we previously were not able to find. It was immediately under the brake chamber. Reinstalled front wheels by self. Deb doing torque wrench tightening on drive and tags, and cleaned front wheels. She also helped Jon all day, until he left us poor folks to fend a bit for ourselves. Jon replaced air dryer cartridge, which appeared to be difficult task. Deb had cleaned it to make changing task easier for Jon. When I tried to be helpful on finding tools for the air dryer change task, I was told to tend to the replacing of Type 24 brake chambers and he and Deb would handle the air dryer cartridge. Jon's muscle was able to remove the coolant conditioning filters, which my muscles were unable to do.

It's a little bit scary when Jon throws the young birds (us) out of the nest. He thinks we'll learn to fly, or maybe (maybe?!) he's sadistic and thinks we might fall to the ground and learn something from it. Either way, it's scary for us little birds. Thankfully he didn't make us eat the way baby birds do, but I'm sure it crossed his mind.

Tomorrow we have to put rest of bus back together, and check our work. Perhaps ignorance will be bliss. Jon taught us to have a spare parts bin, and we've added to it with this maintenance. Hopefully nothing was added to the spare parts bin which was supposed to be reinstalled on the bus.

Without Jon's help and guidance, we sure would not have done one tenth of what we did. With his help and guidance, we learned a whole lot. We are very grateful.

eric and debbie faires

[rfoster]

Micki and I had a great dinner (POG Tradition is to eat) with Jon and Di tonight when passing thru Knoxville and heard about how hard he had been working with Debbie and Eric on their bus.

He explained that Debbie works hard and Eric didn't get dirty.

Sooo--- I call Eric on the way from Knoxville to Bristol and he informs me that he did a lot of work and got dirty.

What is a guy to believe?

I am going to ask Debbie and Jon to come help me work on my bus.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Apart from working my poor fingers to the bone, all I can say is Eric and Deb have really gotten into Prevost ownership. They know what is under their coach now and they have the dirty clothes and skinned knuckles to show for it.

From my perspective this has been a great learning experience with some gained knowledge disappointing. We learned a coach that has a superb maintenance history had issues indicating the professionals charged with the responsibility to maintain the coach need to be watched. That was disappointing. We learned that someone who has never undertaken the maintenance of a coach can do a great job once he or she understands what has to be done. Eric or Deb spun the wrench on almost all the work and they were clearly more careful than the professionals that preceded them. Their attention to detail, especially with respect to fluids and lubing will make their coach last a very long time.

I think Eric and Deb will agree that the pit they installed in their new bus barn is almost essential if an owner really wants to fully maintain their coach. Everything we did can be done without a pit, but it makes what was done so much easier. I have done everything that was done on their coach on my previous coach without a pit, but when struggling with parts that do not want to come loose like some filters that were uncooperative the leverage you can get with your feet flat on the floor of a pit is essential.

I think a constant reference to the owner's manual and the maintenance manual are necessary. As often as I have worked on my coaches I still found Eric's practice of referring to the manuals helpful and important. We used the manuals to verify or to inform. I have probably done the routine scheduled maintenance on my coaches 50 or more times over the years, but referring to the book was still helpful and I am going to make sure I do more of it.

I was somewhat surprised at how our coaches are dissimilar. Not just mine and theirs, but generally speaking. These coaches are clearly evolving and what may apply to my first coach may not apply to Eric and Deb's coach, or to my current coach. There were changes to brake chamber sizes, brakes (disks vs drums, manual slack adjusters vs automatic), fluid fill locations, and converter layouts. But I am also surprised at how some things are a constant such as errors in the shop manual or owner's manual. The wrong oil type for the engine was listed in one place, and in another place the wrong quantities were listed. For example both our coaches called for around 3.5 gallons of differential fluid. In both cases 5 gallons was more correct. So even when the book is read, stuff has to be verified.

I'll admit Eric got dirty, but he has to admit Deb got the dirtiest jobs to do and without her efforts he would still have his bus scattered all over the floor in his new barn.

[hobobimmer]

Apart from working my poor fingers to the bone, . . .

I think Eric and Deb will agree that the pit they installed in their new bus barn is almost essential if an owner really wants to fully maintain their coach.

I think a constant reference to the owner's manual and the maintenance manual are necessary.

I'll admit Eric got dirty, but he has to admit Deb got the dirtiest jobs to do and without her efforts he would still have his bus scattered all over the floor in his new barn.

Responding in order of what is an attempt to edit Jon's most recent post:

1. Jon worked his not so poor fingers to the bone.

2. Pit essential for us and recommend for others. Barn insulation awfully nice, too. Cooler in summer. Hopefully warmer in winter, but we haven't had barn in winter yet.

3. Owners Manual good to have/use.

4. Eric got dirty. Deb got at least as dirty. Without Deb helping, ain't a chance in heck we'd be done yet. We liked to vacuum the fallen grease cakes from the barn floor before we smeared it into the concrete. We learned Day 1 the value of an old, long sleeve shirt and old, long pants that we didn't mind destroying. Easier to launder than clean grease from your skin. Deb likes Playtex Living Gloves for real grease. I prefer the more dainty Dental Gloves to protect my tender fingers.

Deb said best way she found to scrape accumulated grease from bottom of bus and inside wheels and brake drums is with the Pampered Chef plastic, square Icing Tool. We used screwdrivers, chisels, paper tower, brushes, etc. Icing Tool worked best, no kidding.

Deb wants to know if anyone wants her to bake a cake for the next POG Rally and ice it with the Icing Tool. She might wash it first.

eric and debbie faires
huntsville, TN

[phorner]

Congratulations Eric and Debbie. It sure sounds like you learned a lot and had a great time doing so. A family that turns wrenches together stays together.... well at least they get dirty together.

I sure am jealous.

Anyway, regarding dirty clothes, what I used to do as a much younger guy working on my cars, was to buy a pair of light weight, long sleeved coveralls that were my "uniform" whenever I picked up the tools. This way, the majority of the grime was confined to one item that made it's way to the commercial laundry as needed.

Jon, have you considered becoming Dean of POG Tech? :D

Happy travels....

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Another idea for keeping the dirt where it belongs is, at Home Depot or similar, buy disposable paper like synthetic coveralls. Cheap, and you don't have to contaminate your washer.

Always keep a few sets around for the emergency, like when you are all dressed up and have to have a go at something!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

I don't mind helping out or talking on the phone or answering emails about Prevost stuff. I like the folks that have these buses so getting a little more time to talk to them, even if it is to chase down a problem is fun.

But I am not a professional, I do not pretend to be a professional, and virtually everything I have learned about our coaches is because something broke on mine and had to be repaired. All I can say is that so far the stuff I have repaired stayed repaired.

I would like to see somebody like Joe who is a professional jump in and assume the role of POG Insitute Dean of Mechanics. I would like to see Peter be our Dean of Engineering. I would like to see Hector become our Dean of Communications because of how he made the suspensions so easy to understand. I will volunteer to be the air bag professor.

[rfoster]

I will volunteer to be the official food taster/sampler at Rallies for no extra charge.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Times must be tough. Being King is a full time job, and now he is going after a second job.

Usually the King has his own food taster.

[hhoppe]

Congrats on some very tough jobs done Eric & Debbie. If confronted with the same oportunity to do my bus I would value Jon looking over my shoulder also.
The one thing that really stands out in this lengthy thread on maintenence of our buses is having copies of the documation available in hand with who ever is doing the work. If you want the grease job done correctly hand the copy of the chart showing all locations and have each checked off as they are done. This goes the same for any and all other maintenence tasks. We asume the word Tech implies that a person getting ready to work on your bus knows and understands every correct move to make. Give them a chance by presenting them with the charts describing the job. If he turns up his nose at the help, get another 'tech". I have a 1934 Ford chasis lubrication chart from the Ford Motor Company hanging on my garage wall that shows every location of lube points. As simple as that car is, it would really tell us our complex buses needs that as a minimum service aid.

[lewpopp]

Jon, did Debbie at least clean your teeth while there? She could use the Pampered Chef scraper. Get that sarcasm scrapped off of your eating hole.

Were there any good jokes along the way?