Hot Brakes

[doodlebug45]

We got in to a very twisty, mountainous chunk of road and I overheated my brakes. When I was finally able to pull over they were smoking and then I got oil running down the front tires. I haven't taken a close look yet but I presume I have damaged (melted) the plastic oil cups on my IFS front end. Any advice or words of wisdom would be much appreciated.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I'd say your pretty lucky.

Was just the steer axle smoking? If so the brakes are adjusted incorrectly, or possibly the last brake job did not include all axles or also, auto slack adjusters do fail. Just to name a few. All axles should be grabbing equally.

I know that only some types of the automatic slack adjusters are adjustable and that is a perfect example why some do not care for them. There are choices, some auto slacks CAN be adjusted to ratchet sooner or later to fine tune for certain axles that mat be lighter or heavier.

I would not go another foot without a thorough brake and hub inspection.

I might suggest a slight change in your driving technique too. Begin your decent WAY SLOWER and keep it WAY SLOWER ALL THE WAY DOWN. If it is 2 lane and traffic is mounting behind you, so be it.

Where was this oil, on the outside or inside sidewalls? I would assume because of the heat all of your hub seals on any of the smoking hubs are subject to future failure. Wheel bearings too.

After you stopped those brakes/hubs actually continued to get hotter before they then began to cool down. I have come up on trucks and cautioned drivers about glowing brake linings who have pulled over and only after stopping experienced a flame up.

Thank God you got stopped and had no fire.

Ya know how some folks do not subscribe to this new technology like wireless tire pressure sensors because for one you then stop doing visual inspections that still need doing. Or outboard brake drums because hub bearings often go way too long without inspections because of that convenience?

Well because most now have automatic slack adjusters many no longer ever do thorough enough brake inspections like visually checking slack at every hub.

Could very possibly be that you had none of these mechanical shortfalls and you were just traveling too quickly for conditions. However, now the damage is done.

[flyu2there]

We got in to a very twisty, mountainous chunk of road and I overheated my brakes. When I was finally able to pull over they were smoking and then I got oil running down the front tires. I haven't taken a close look yet but I presume I have damaged (melted) the plastic oil cups on my IFS front end. Any advice or words of wisdom would be much appreciated.

Hugh,

You might want to head back to Desert West. You say oil running down on the "tires" by that I presume both fronts? The cups that hold the gear oil for the front wheel bearings, to melt them you must have really cooked the brakes which means possibly warped or cracked rotor (s), glazed over disc pads and possibly front wheel bearings.

Did you use lower gears and the jake on HI? I have been down my share of mountain roads, including Wolf Creek Pass, and rarely have to use my service brakes at all....use the Jake!

John

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Hugh,

Good previous advice. Here's my spin on this that nobody mentioned. Your excessive use of brakes due to driving technique may have contributed, in which case learning and using the correct procedures will eliminate the problem in the future.

But this may not have anything at all related to the driving techniques. On some coaches with disc brakes over greasing the caliper actuating shaft may prevent the pads from retracting after the brakes have been released and when that happens your brakes will overheat.

Not all front axle brakes however have a provision for greasing (nor do they need any) so that might not be the cause. What is important is to determine why they overheated, and to correct any damage that might have occured due to overheating.

I would have the discs checked for cracking or warping. I would have the pads checked. I would make certain the hub seals are not leaking. They are plastic and easily heat damaged. I would check the plastic hub cover to make sure it is not leaking. I would inspect the bearings to make sure they suffered no heat damage. I would make sure the wheels are flat where they bolt to the hub and were not affected by heat.

If this is solely related to one side of the coach my suspicion is that Joe is right about a possible faulty automatic slack adjuster. If both sides of the coach were equally hot, I would surmise the problem was driver technique and over use of the brakes.

BTW, this mention of driver technique is not a slam on you, but a message to all owners that driving in mountainous or hilly country requires techniques none of us would even think about in our cars, and that because these buses are in many ways as easy to drive as our cars we easily forget we do need to be more active in managing the energy.

[doodlebug45]

Thanks for the comments. I have now taken the hub covers off and had a better look. The wheel seals are definitely blown. There was no oil leaking until after I stopped so the comment about getting hotter then is probably correct.
I am pretty sure that the problem here was driving technique along with load. My toad is fairly heavy and even though I have a Brake Buddy, it was probably not set high enough. For the conditions we are in right now, I think the best solution will be to disconnect and drive the truck.
The big problem I have right now is that I need to replace the front wheel seals in place before I can go anywhere. I am currently in Mexico, in a little mountain village on highway 200 about half way between Tepic and Puerto Vallarta. The problem road was the piece I drove from Tepic to where I am now so I don't particularly want to go back that way.
I have the tools to do most any kind of work. I am about 80 miles from PV but suspect that translates into about 3 hours of driving. Any thought on this situation would be most welcome.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

So the oil that was leaking was coming down on the inside sidewall and the only axle that was smoking was the steer?

I have learned that when you heat things up coming down a grade and you know it but have made it to the bottom if you think you can cautiously continue for a little further instead of immediately stopping the time and air blowing through things cools things down considerably possibly preventing a fire or meltdown of the seals and more severe damage of other related components.

I see 2 choices 1-wait there for parts
2- if after further thorough inspection you have good braking
ability fill the hubs back up and proceed cautiously
checking the hubs frequently.

How much further you have to go to service the severity of the terrain and the severity of the leak are the factors that need to be considered to give you your solution.

If you proceed you know will have a mess on your hands with the seals leaking but that may be a compromise you will be willing to make.

When you are rolling centrifugal force takes that oil and pushes it out to the outer edge of that cavity engulfing the rollers of the bearings and when you stop is when it will settle to the bottom getting above the lip of the seal and probably leaking the most. Not a very reassuring thought or preferable situation but something to keep in mind.

If I were confident of my brakes the grades were minimal and the leak slight I would go the 80 miles.

[Darl-Wilson]

Hugh, I know the area very well and have driven that road lots of times. I have a 2 brother-in-laws that live nearby in Las Palmas and in el Ranchito Jalicso, near PV. They are a little more than an hour from you. Both are bus mechanics and one has owned buses for several years. I think many of the parts are generic. I know they have Eaton parts there along with about everything else. There is only one problem, THEY DO NOT SPEAK ENGLISH. But trust me, they DO know buses and are great mechanics. If you want to call or email me and we will call them. They are not expensive and will not take advantage of your situation. You will just need to have someone to interpret.

There are also some shade-tree mechanics around Las Varas and Rincon de Guayabitos Nayarit. They are on the west side of the Hwy 200.

My home phone is 775-852-1475 and email is darl@darlw.com. We can call you back with a calling card. Calls from there are very expensive.

Let me know.

Darl

[doodlebug45]

That info sounds great Darl. I have two boys with me who are fluent in Spanish. The problem is the outside seal with oil running down the outside of the tire. I took a picture but can't seem to upload for some reason. Service is marginal. There is no cell phone service at all. The best email address for me is hughst@shaw.ca . The part number on the device is CR1613. It is for a Hub & Rotor Front Axle Model "G.K.N'. The Prevost part numbers I have are 611059 (HUB CAP), 611060 (PLUG RUBBER) and 611083 (GASKET). If these parts are available (I need both sides) I can send my guys to get them so we can get under way to a service facility. The road conditions will still be tough Joe so I can't risk moving right now. I will try again to send the picture. I might have more luck sending it to you by email Darl. Please let me know if your brothers-in-law have this part.

[Darl-Wilson]

Hugh, I doubt that those same part numbers are going to be located in that part of Mexico. We used to get most everything from Guadalajara but we could almost always locate a replacement locally. I don't remember ever seeing a Mexican Prevost. Almost everything down there is Dina, similar to MCI or GMC. I am sure they have parts that would be interchangeable with your vehicle. I lived/worked in PV, Sayulita, Bucerías, Nayarit, and my wife's village, el Ranchito, Jal for about 12 years. My 1st suggestion would to remove the part (s) and try to get them replaced locally. Are you near Compostela? All of the little villages along that stretch of Hwy 200 have parts stores and truck/tractor mechanics. These guys are very inventive and since you have a couple of Spanish speakers with you there shouldn't be a problem.

Before you worry about the mechanical problem get your coach into a secure area. For safety sakes, get off the highway and into a populated area, or RV park if possible. There are several at Rincon de Guayabitos and at almost all of the villages. Trust me, this is NOT a real safe area. Do not open your coach for anyone at night and be especially cautious of police and soldiers. They are often not the real deal. Try to get into a park or some place surrounded by Americans/Canadians. There are lots of Canadians at Rincon de Guayabitos. I don't mean to alarm you but I know this area very well and being there in an expensive bus will draw lots of attention, some of it unwanted.

Now, back to the mechanical problem. Search locally for the parts and a mechanic. If you are unable to find some help email me and I will call down there and let my relatives know you will be contacting them. Use a pay phone if needed. If that don't work I can have them to get a bus to your location. Chuy, the bus owner/mechanic, has a truck but usually doesn't take it on long trips. One way or another we can get you some help and back on the road in a short time. If parts have to come out of Guadalajara you don't want to be far from Compostela since the short-cut to the Guadalajara toll-road is nearby.

I hope this helps Hugh. Unfortunately things are a bit more primitive down there and situations like yours requires some patience. You may not be able to get parts until Monday. If you are able to make these repairs yourself you can always get the parts overnighted to PV. There is good airfreight service to this location. If you need me to make any phone calls for you just email me.

I will also post this on the Forum in case we get someone else that wants to chime in with a suggestion.

Good Luck ( A Nevada Thing)

Darl

[doodlebug45]

I sent you an email with picture attached. I still can't get it uploaded to this site. even though I reduced the size. Could you please post if you can.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Hugh,

If you fail to get the parts you need or get them installed at the very least if you can get the mechanics to pack your wheel bearings and hubs with high temperature bearing grease you will be able to make it for a complete repair.

[Darl-Wilson]

Hugh and Linda, I just left a message for Donovan at Prevost after hours parts service. He has your phone and email address and will get you 5 exchange numbers for Dina and other seals/hubs, sold in Mexico, that will work with Prevost. His phone, in case you need it, is 951-314-0226. I also gave him my ph and email in case I have to relay something to you. I will post this on the Forum also and you should post the parts numbers when you receive them.

In case your temp repairs don't get you to PV there is an RV park just past Bucerias. There is a litlle hill just after you pass through this village and the RV park in off to the right, down the hill in front of the beach. There is a sign indicating where to turn off Hwy 200.

Have a safe trip and keep us up to date.

Darl

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Hugh,

If you fail to get the parts you need or get them installed at the very least if you can get the mechanics to pack your wheel bearings and hubs with high temperature bearing grease you will be able to make it for a complete repair.

Brilliant suggestion Jon. Every bus should have some for an emergency situation!!

[doodlebug45]

I made some temporary repairs to what Prevost calls the "hub caps" and filled them up with gear oil. Everything held just great and we didn't lose a drop of oil. We disconnected the toad and I vastly improved my driving technique. I think I touched my brakes about 6 times in 80 miles. At first we stopped about every 5 or 6 miles to check things out then stretched it out. I left all the fancy trim off to allow for easy checking and improved cooling. The oil never got more than luke warm. A quick check of the rotors and pads show no obvious damage but a more thorough inspection will be made now we are "off the mountain" and back in civilization. At a later date I will explain how I made the repair just in case someone else needs to do it in the future.
I must say that I am embarrassed about the bad driving technique that caused this problem. There is no doubt that the whole thing was 100% driver error and I should have known better. Thankfully this terrific machine was forgiving enough to cut me some slack.
Thanks to all for their help, advice and comments. Special thanks to Darl for his help while my communications were so bad. I think both internet and phone are working ok now. All that remains is to find a place in PV that sells the parts I need. The Prevost folks told Darl that they are common but I have not yet heard from Prevost myself. If anybody has some info on this it would be appreciated. I listed the Prevost part numbers in a previous message.
I will keep everyone posted as we move forward.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Hugh, don't waste time kicking yourself. There is not a person on this or any forum that started out knowing everything. The key is you learned from this experience and because of that you are now in the position to teach others to help them avoid learning things the hard way.

There are techniques to avoid overheating or over using our brakes and what is important is for we who have the experience to help others who are not yet experienced to learn the safe way to drive.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Ditto's

Heck I was concerned of the safety of the location of the brake down. We all hear those types of stories and I have heard my share about the Mexican countryside.

[Denny]

Hugh

Ditto to Jon's remarks. Remember, there are two types of RVers: those who have had problems and those who are going to have problems. At the next POG rally we should have every owner stand up and then say "everyone who has not done something dumb please sit down." I would bet my next paycheck that no one would sit down. If someone does, they are on their maiden voyage with almost no miles driven. We have all smoked the brakes, pulled out with the toad in gear or the emergency brake on, did not unlock the steering wheel so the front wheels don't turn, etc, just to mention a few. (And yes, I am speaking from experience).

One thing to remember when going down a steep grade - Go down in the same gear, or one lower, than what you went up in. Be sure to use your Jake brake, retarder or exhaust brake also. Don't worry about holding up traffic. Your safety is more important.

[Darl-Wilson]

Hugh, as you probably already know by now parts numbers will not be needed to get the Dina or other type of replacement. Needless to say I am miffed with Donavan at Prevost Mira Loma for not calling you or I back on Saturday with those parts exchange numbers. Anyway, simply go to a truck parts store with the old parts and they should fix you up in no time. It seems to me that there are several on the east side of Hwy 200 just past the Krystal Hotel entrance. If you are staying at the RV park on the road to Pitillal simply turn left when you hit Hwy 200 right by the WalMart. The best thing is ask someone where the truck/bus parts store is located. The general area for that sort of thing is along 200 and then along the 200 bypass that runs east of town. They are also listed in the Yellow Pages. Most things there are like you'll find north of the border. We got through to my bro-in-law last night so if you need further help please let me know and we will call him for the location of a 'Refaccionaria' that will have what you need. Check Dale's map for my phones if you need to make a call.

Have a great trip!:cool:

[dalej]

Darl,

You have got to be commended for being able to help a bus guy thats in Mexico.

This POG thing just keeps getting better, it's all about the network.

[doodlebug45]

Hi Folks,

Hey Darl, I spent most of the day doing just what you said. I called Donovan this AM and he was able to give me one other maker/part number for the part so I went looking. We asked around and got sent from one end of PV to the other. The first supplier we found only had one unit in stock but he called another guy who had at least two. Off we went to a very obscure little place down in the tourist section about one block off the beach. Very hard to find but he had the goods. The manufacturer I never heard of and there is no such thing as parts cross reference. The quality appears excellent with well finished cast aluminum instead of the plastic parts that blew up on me. Perhaps the best news is that they cost me $7.00 each (Yes, seven) and that included the gaskets and plug. I'm thinking that tomorrow I may go back and buy another set for the tag axle.
Thanks to all of you for your kind words. It sure is great to have this group as a support for those of us crazy enough to go off on crazy trips like this. It is said that there are no dress rehearsals for life so I figure you might as well give it a shot if that's what you want to do.
I would like to say that apart from this mishap, we are having just a great time on the trip. The Mexican people couldn't be friendlier or more helpful. A little propina for some of the local police has been the only thing out of the ordinary. Some toys and candy for the kids in the little village where we broke down made us heros in their eyes.
We should be all rested and repaired tomorrow and on our way again by Wednesday morning. PV isn't that great in the rain but it sure beats sitting in the clouds and rain up on that mountain. Our next target is Ixtapa which may take a couple of days and then Acapulco. I get the definite impression that they haven't seen too many Prevosts down here.

Cheers,

[jello_jeep]

Nice work Darl!

I don't have the nads to drive my bus into Mexico, but if I did it would be nice to know there was someone who knew the area and had connections down yonder!

[truk4u]

Darl,

Your da man!;) I'm like Jeep, not enough nads for the Mexican adventure since I couldn't bring my nugs....

Great job, that's what makes POG so invaluable.

[Darl-Wilson]

Hugh has the big ones! I would never take the trip he is on right now. The road is narrow and winds all over hell south of PV. It is also deserted. They will go to Manzanillo and into Colima and then further south they will hit Playa Azul, Ixtapa, Zihuatanejo, and then into the State of Guerrero. Guerrero and the State of Chiapas are the two of the most dangerous places in Mexico. I have already relayed most of this to Hugh but I think he is well prepared. They have two Spanish speakers and they know to stay in safe areas and to be cautious with would-be police or soldiers. I admire them for making this trip but I lived there too long and am too old to take a chance on an incident.

Hugh, let me know if you need anything else.
Good Luck

(A Nevada Thing)

Darl

[dalej]

Hugh, you out there?

Has anyone had a update on the Mexico adventurer? I sure hope everything is ok down there.

[Darl-Wilson]

Here was the last post with Hugh:


Hugh has the big ones! I would never take the trip he is on right now. The road is narrow and winds all over hell south of PV. It is also deserted. They will go to Manzanillo and into Colima and then further south they will hit Playa Azul, Ixtapa, Zihuatanejo, and then into the State of Guerrero. Guerrero and the State of Chiapas are the two of the most dangerous places in Mexico. I have already relayed most of this to Hugh but I think he is well prepared. They have two Spanish speakers and they know to stay in safe areas and to be cautious with would-be police or soldiers. I admire them for making this trip but I lived there too long and am too old to take a chance on an incident.

Hugh, let me know if you need anything else.
Good Luck

(A Nevada Thing)

Darl

I finally got a response to my email; my email and his response follows without additional comment:

----- Original Message -----
From: Darl Wilson <darl64@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:59 pm
Subject: How are you?
To: MR H STANFIELD <hughst@shaw.ca>

>
> Hugh and Linda, It has been just over 2 months since we
> last heard from you in Puerto Vallarta and I'm getting a little
> concerned. I talked with Jim Skiff and a few other POG
> members and they all told me the same; No word from the Stanfields.
>
> Please bring me and the group up to date on your travels.
> We try to keep an eye on members and are not only interested in
> their travels, etc but also their welfare.
>
> If you don't mind let us know a bit about where you have been
> and simply what you and your family have been enjoying in Mexico
> and elsewhere. Post some pictures if possible. Don't
> forget, we are having a rally in Spearfish, SD next month.
> It would be nice if you folks could join us.
>
> Have a great trip and keep in touch,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Darl and Martha

Hi Darl,

Our communications facilities have been a little lacking for the last while. Linda and I have been touring in Central America. We have had a great time with very few problems. I certainly DO NOT recommend the roads for any other Prevost owners. Many times our bus has been slightly wider than the lanes we were travelling in with no shoulders, sharp hairpins and wild drivers. I noticed that when the lanes get too narrow they solve the problem by not painting a center line! However, the scenery has been fantastic and the people terrific. We get stopped at most military and police checkpoints, mainly out of curiosity. It seems we're a lot more interesting than farm trucks.

We have lots of pictures and we plan to post some of those along with a summary of the trip once we have a stable internet connection.

Thanks for the concern and good words. By the way, It may have been a bit on the large side but I don't think I would have made this trip in anything other than a Prevost.

Cheers,
Hugh & Linda