Pole Breaker Problem

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Peg and I went to Buckhorn for the Memorial Day weekend. We followed behind Loc McNew and his crew, and drove just in front of Tuga Guidry and his harem of lovely ladies.

Had an uneventful ( a good thing ) trip from Houston after meeting up with everybody on I-10 at the Turn Out Picnic Area just West of Brookshire. ( This is the area where I took all the pictures of you guys going by last year to Buckhorn for POG III).

Anyway we all got into our spots hooked up and that is when my electrical problems started. Not enough power to run things correctly on my bus. I checked and Loc checked my power pole and the Progressive Industries Black box was showing nothing wrong at the source.

So that is when I had numerous conversations with all the great guys at Panterra Coach, Bob Makin, Don Wolf, and Dustin the electrical guru. We also called everybodys buddy and Prevost Master Jon W. All parties seemd to think I had burned the shore circut buss fuse, in my Electrical Transfer Switching Panel, ( WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING) especially on Friday night, a memorial weekend.

Well after 2 hours of fussing and cussing, yes lots of cusing, the Buckhorn electrican shows up to see what he can do, and we look for the 12th time at the pole for proper voltage on both legs. CRAP ! Why is it showing all of these ERRORS coming off of the post NOW ! It never showed us a problem when Loc and I looked at it the other 12 times? :o

We plugged our cord into the empty spot next to us, and within 5 minutes everything was back up and running. TURNS OUT THE CAMP GROUND POLE HAD A TEMPORMENTAL 50 AMP BREAKER which they replaced the next morning. :mad:

So to say again, when you plug in and things don't work, plug in somewhere else before thinking there is something wrong with your bus, and bothering all of the helpful friends you know. One of these days they won't take your call?:o


Thanks Very much for the guys on the other end of the phone. :)

Bob Makin, Pantera Coach
Don Wolf, Pantera Coach
Dustin, Pantera Coach
and last but not least Jon Werenburg

Gary S.

[Jim_Scoggins]

Glad it worked out. Your situaion is a great reminder for all of us.
Try easy and simple first!

My next door neighbor who is one of the master mechanics for Honda told me that years ago. However, when something happens to me I start thinking worst case scenarios. I will then usually come to my senses and try easy and simple first.

[tdelorme]

Glad it wasn't the bus, Gary. I'm like jim in that I always do worst case thinking on these deals and it usually clouds my thinking so that I miss the simple fix.
The Progressive Black Box issue bothers me though. The first one I bought did something similar. Plugged it up and it went through the built in checks and showed everything fine. When I plugged the coach in, several things did not work including the microwave and two cruise airs. I went through hell trying to figure out what was wrong with the bus. When I finally checked the receptacle with a volt meter, one leg was down, no voltage. Progressive sent me a new unit and so far so good b ut it was sure frustrating at the time. It ain't always the bus, thank goodness.

[truk4u]

Gary,

Get one of these! Mine is built-in, but you can buy them for stand alone.

2883

[Coloradobus]

Gary,
A similar thing happened to us a ORA Motorcoach Country Club Indio. None of the 220 appliances worked. Of course they were very quick to accuse the Marathon Coach, "OH not them!!!:(", they said. With much cussing, they tried to prevent me from moving the bus to the site next door. So, I got out my 50 amp 50ft extension cord and plugged in. The office came running over and said I can't do that, that lot has an owner. I told them either move us, or I will run the generator. "Oh You can't run the genset in the resort." I said, "OK, fine, I will stay plugged into the next site and YOU guys can hash it out with the owner.",
End of story. Boy I was fuming when they accused the coach. We just went thru a re-programming at Marathon because of faulty shore power earlier in the year.
;)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary, glad to hear that problem is solved.

Not to rain on your parade you mentioned that even while driving down the highway your generator was coming on due to the autostart.

Before you settle in and start thinking life is good, you need to check to find out why that is happening. You should have been getting more than enough battery charging power while in motion to never hear the generator start.

Maybe this should go over to another thread.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

We had an auto-start that would sense other reasons besides low battery voltage to auto such as cabin temps and preset exercise intervals for times of dormancy. If not disabled they could be the culprit.

[garyde]

Those pesky breakers. Sometimes gently tapping on a breaker will fix the problem with a intermittant breaker. Sometimes when a breaker has tripped and been reset, the internal spring,and thermal mechanism does not sit properly. Gently tapping can re align the internal trip mechanism.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Over the years we have had this happen a few times. On more than one occasion I was measuring power to all legs, but the coach was not getting it on one leg.

Since I am from the school that says do the simple checks first, I remove the deadfront on the shore power and check the bus bar lugs and then the breaker connection. Our meter will read power to the receptacle when there is a loose connection, but when there is a load a loose screw on the cable at the breaker will not allow power into the coach. This type of problem is usually visible because a loose connection at the load wires will show a lot of blackening.

Sometimes merely tightening the screw on the breaker does the trick. But as Gary says sometimes giving the breaker a slap will work.

[jello_jeep]

Gary, here you are giving up the "tap the breaker" trick! The next thing you will tell folks how to reset GFI's! Electricians have to make a living for crying out loud :D

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Sometimes gently tapping on a breaker will fix the problem with a intermittant breaker.

Gary De: I considered using my 20lb sledge for the tapping, but couldn't find it in my bus anywhere? ! :mad: :D

Gary S.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Not to rain on your parade you mentioned that even while driving down the highway your generator was coming on due to the autostart.

Before you settle in and start thinking life is good, you need to check to find out why that is happening. You should have been getting more than enough battery charging power while in motion to never hear the generator start.

Maybe this should go over to another thread.


Jon, you were correct as usual, which is no big surprise. :p

On our way out with our mini rally to Buckhorn, I noticed that my gen would keep starting. I didn't have but one A/C on and that is suppose to be handled by the invertors. So I mentioned that to Jon, while he was trying to help me solve my other power issue. ( Bad Pole Breaker ).

So when we got home, I took it to Birdland, ( Loc's Favorite RV Resort ) here in houston to have the power issue looked at.

CRAP ! I need to replace both battery equallizers, the power isolater, and what the hell, might as well replace ALL SIX OF THE 8D Lifeline Batteries while they are at it. (4) Batteries were 2005 (2) Batteries were 2003 :(

Good thing my step-daughter doesn't expect any ineheritance when I die, cause there won't be any.
And for good measure I had Michael ( Birdland ) fix the door hinge safety pin that keeps it from swinging out and knocking the mirror out of alignment. :)

I hope to be able to afford fuel sometime in early 09, so we can go somewhere? :eek:

But at least I think everything is fixed, electrically?

Gary S.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary,

While you have replaced everything in the house charging circuit but the alternator, for future reference I would have run a check on the components before replacing them. Here is my thinking for what it is worth.

The equalizer is easy to check. The 24volt side should be 2X the 12 volt side plus or minus 1/2 volt. If that checks out the equalizer is good. Check it with the bus running and the alternator charging.

An ohmeter can check the isolator which is an indication to me that you have a single large 24V alternator charging both the house and the chassis. The isolator is working if you get power from the alternator thru to both the house and chassis circuits, but with the bus engine off you do not get power back from either the house or the chassis to the alternator post. The isolator allows current to flow into the batteries, but not from them.

My guess is one of the house batteries, likely the 2003 battery had failed and it sucked the others down. A simple battery test with all batteries disconnected from one another would have sufficed to show the problem.

You should be good for many months and miles now as long as you properly keep the batteries topped off.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Thanks Jon, for all the wisdom you shed on our problems and concerns. :)

Birdland is just waiting on the Isolater to arrive in town, so they can put it in my bus, and I will be on the road again. Hopefully today, but no guarantees?


Loc won't tell me where he is going this weekend, :confused: so even if I get my bus, I won't be able to find him so that Peg and I can camp with him and Courtney. Courtney really loves, Peg's Margarittas. !!!

Come to think of it, maybe not knowing where Loc is, would be a good thing. :p

Gary S.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary,

Save every one of the parts removed from your coach. Next time we get together I would like to test them. You may have some spares or parts you could sell.

Coming to Spearfish? Should we do a hands on seminar on DC electrical systems on our coaches?

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Jon, sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you on this question?

We will not be able to make it to Spearfish, our next POG Rally will be in 2009 when and hopefully where ever it ends up, but I do think an electrical seminar would be a definite must for most of us, and greatly appreciated.



But now I have another question. I keep pretty good tabs on the POG site because of all the usefull information and the chuckles it offers.

Usually I log in to POG and then click on New Posts to see what is new since the last time I logged in...... but lately I miss lots of previous posts from you guys for some reason. Am I doing something wrong or are you guys sometimes missing posts as well when you log in?

I still can't find an answer to my question about types of Back Up Cameras you guys use that fit in the painted shell on the back of my bus. My Inteq has crapped out again, after only 2 weeks. This is the second new camera.

Gary S.

[JIM KELLER]

Gary, I have noticed the same thing. I just thought I was doing something wrong. I stumble on posts and think " how did I miss that ! "

[Ray Davis]

Unfortunately it appears the "new posts" really only works for a period of 1-2 days. If you haven't logged in beyond that time, it doesn't seem to work correctly.

ALSO, and this is very import.

It uses your time of login (time of last action, like reading a post) as a determining factor. If you log in at some point, read a couple of posts, and then don't get to the remainder for several days, you will likely loose the posts that were remaining at that time.

The software doesn't actually monitor each and every post that you've read, but it compares the post time, with the last time you were active on the forum. So a login with partial reading can really mess you up.

Ray

[Jeff Bayley]

If I missed someone already posting this note, forgive. I scanned the entire thread quickly. If someone didn't already mention it, I believe that the 50 amp breakers simply wear out after breaking/tripping over and over and over and over again. So the breaker is worn out and accoding to some electricians I've asked about. Sometimes, I'll get better power out of a 30 amp service and running two airs than I will at a worn out 50 amp service (in the same park even). The breakers just get weak after so many cycles and maybe some corrosion, dirt or other junk.

I've never had an issue at a KOA. They do maintainence and don't let weak things like breakers degrade and I think they replace these more often as needed. Then I've plugged into 50 amp service that has a well worn, chipped, loose breaker. It might trip after it warms up a bit and your out of power at 3am in the morning. Besides testing the breaker with a load metter (which few of us have), just go ahead and test the outlet (before you get bunkered down at that spot) by putting on all three airs or two airs and the waster or dryer or some heavy load. That's your load meter. If the RV camps 50 amp breaker snaps, then get to another spot before you level everythig off and pitch camp.

From an arm chair electrical field tester. No MIA degree here.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The circuit breakers in the campground power boxes, especially the 50 amp breakers, are used as switches. That is not a job they were designed to do so they will have a high failure rate.

The breakers are supposed to be "on" all the time such as the breakers in your house, and only on rare occasion when you service a circuit are you expected to cycle a breaker on and off. In a campground application the breakers may be cycled as frequently as once a day.

I used to carry a bunch because when we were producing power outlets we would occasionally break a piece of the plastic or there would be a defect that made it unacceptable in the product, but the breaker would function just fine. I have replaced more than one rather than go through the effort to hunt someone down in the campground and then watch them go to hunt up parts. Now I just turn on the generator and complain.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

The last thee ( 3 ) campgrounds in a row we have been to have had problems at the poles providing enough power to my bus... What the heck is up with that.

1) Kerrville, Had to replace breaker.
2) Rayford Crossing They had to replace the breaker and the 50 amp plug.
3) Yesterday Friday; Gulf Waters RV Resort in Port Aransas, ( Tried two different poles ) They would do nothing for us, cause it was Friday evening and the techs had already driven across the ferry and it would take 3 hours to get back. :mad: WE PULLED UP STAKES 6:00PM FRIDAY night and left Port Aransas and headed to La Hacienda, @ Lake Travis. Plugged in to one of their new sites this morning ( which they have almost 300 of ), and NO PROBLEMS AT ALL.... ;);) Yippeee

My question is does anyone think I have an electical problem somewhere that keeps causing this POLE Problem? I worry now everytime I plug in somewhere, that when we go away for a short time, the power turns off.

Not sure what else to do? We have been plugged into service W/O any problems for 6 hours. I better knock on wood!!!!

Gary S.

[nrhareiner]

Hello Gary,

Do you know how many amps you are pulling on each leg? Do have inverters that are adjustable reference the amount they will draw?

the other variable is the temperature in the area you are visiting. I am in Denver at the moment with temps above 95 degrees. I have the bus set to draw no more than 35 amps/side. Plugged in, the breaker was weak and tripped. I carry extra breaker, replaced it and am fine. I replace their breaker when I leave if they do not agree to replace the breaker while I am there.

I think the problem is the heat and older breakers and not your bus.

[MangoMike]

Kim,

Do you replace those breakers hot? I don't recall seeing a disconnect switch on the pole or am I missing something. Good idea to keep a spare.

Mike

[merle&louise]

Gary,

We were in a CG in Columbus, GA and I had a similar problem. I plugged into the power pole and everything worked fine; 120V on each leg and everything inside the coach worked normally.

When we returned about 10PM everything was off! No power at the power pedestal on either leg AND THE 50 AMP BREAKER WAS NOT TRIPPED! I ran the generator and complained to the office the next morning.

Come to find out, there was a second 50 amp breaker on the main distribution center for the campground (I'm sure that is the wrong terminology) that was worn out. They replaced it and no more problems.

So the problem was not my coach and it was not the 50 amp breaker on the power pedestal. Go figure!

[phorner]

Try setting the charging amps for your inverter/chargers to the lowest settings. You don't need the maximum charge rate unless you do a lot of dry camping.

It's real easy to trip the campsite 50 amp breaker, especially if it's hot and you're running multiple air conditioners. Keep a close eye on your total electrical loads, as they may have momentary spikes, such as when the water pump or hot water heater kicks on.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

A 50 amp breaker will handle 40 amps. If it actually carries any more consider it a bonus.

Having said that there is a trend in the temporary power industry to squeeze every penny of cost from the boxes. What used to be copper internal wires is now aluminum for example. The leader of the industry, Midwest has agressively cut costs and the competitors have followed in lockstep.

This is solely attributable to campground owners who will not spend a penny more than they have to. All suppliers to the industry are doing the same thing the electric box folks are. The savings to the campground owner is an illusion because by taking a dollar out of the box by going from copper to aluminum for example the product life is shortened, and maintenance costs are increased because the torque on the lugs is always loosening. Loose fittings translate to resistance, which translates to heat, which translates to problems.

This group has a hard time understanding the short sighted view of campground owners, but look around at who is camping next to our coaches. Plastic boxes with no quality are typical, and the lack of quality is not as important as the lowest price. We will see more problems in the years to come as the newer cheaper boxes replace the older ones, and they will exhibit problems much sooner than the old heavily built boxes with copper wires and copper bus bars.

For us to minimize problems we have to use less power. Personally I limit our loads to 30 to 35 amps per leg. If it starts to exceed that I turn off things that can be powered when we don't need as much air conditioning.

I think that Gary is just having a stream of bad luck unless he has just thrown all his 120 Volt switches and is using lots of power.

[dreamchasers]

I have been following this post and have thought of the power monitoring system in my Country Coach. I have searched my documentation and do not have any information on this device. Is this part of the generator electronics. I think I am protected, but do not know for certain. The generator panel has several alarms, I do not know if I should install a Progressive Industries system or is it not needed? Does any Country Coach owners have any information on the specifics of these systems? Mine is a 95 Country Coach.

Any help is alway appreciated.

Hector

[dale farley]

Hector, I can tell you that several of us CC owners have the Progressive Industries system. I wouldn't have another RV of any kind without the coverage the system offers. Mine is attached any time the bus is connected to shore power.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Hello Gary, Do you know how many amps you are pulling on each leg? Do have inverters that are adjustable reference the amount they will draw?
the other variable is the temperature in the area you are visiting. I am in Denver at the moment with temps above 95 degrees. I have the bus set to draw no more than 35 amps/side. Plugged in, the breaker was weak and tripped. I carry extra breaker, replaced it and am fine. I replace their breaker when I leave if they do not agree to replace the breaker while I am there.

I think the problem is the heat and older breakers and not your bus.

Kim, I do not know how many amps I am pulling on each leg. I am sure it is posted on my panel, overhead, but I still have lots more to learn about that, before it comes naturally. I have the ( 2 ) Trace 4000's and am trying to track down the manual now, so I can figure out more on just how these operate. It was very hot ( 96 ) when we plugged in, and the sun of course was beating down on the pole, so I have heard that added heat causes lots of problems. Someone told me they actually put an umbrella over the pole to cut down on some of the direct heat? :rolleyes:

Just for further info, we camped without incident all day and night yesterday at the new park in Austin. Ran all A/C's got the bus as cool as we wanted, and blended up a couple batchs of Frozen Margaritas too, and NO ELECTRICAL PROBLEMOS ? !!!! Made me very happy for the rest of the weekend. :)

Gary S.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Hector, I can tell you that several of us CC owners have the Progressive Industries system. I wouldn't have another RV of any kind without the coverage the system offers. Mine is attached any time the bus is connected to shore power.

Hector, I absolutely agree with Dale. Even with all of the problems with electricity I have been having lately, I still plug in FIRST my Progressive Industries Black Box. I wish my box was built in to my bus, but I put it on the pole every time before I plug in.

A real must have electrical device. If you can get the same High end unit and have it Installed DO IT.. My 7 cents worth.

Hector what did you think of the RV parks I sent you info on in Sugar Land? Hope I helped?

Gary S.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

I found out another bit of information from Dustin @ Panterra, that completely makes sense. :)

When plugging in your 50 amp cord, unreel it completely out of the bus, instead of leaving it on the reel inside the hot bus. Unreel it and lay the majority of the cord under the bus length wise, not coiled up like they do with extra Boat lines. This will maximize cooler cord temps.

A coiled electrical cord makes a magnetic field, which will also add to the heat of the line. :(

Noone ever told me this one but it makes perfect sense to me. :cool:

Gary S.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Excellent advice and it makes perfect sense. I'm going to do that.