Future Rally Size.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

We are heading towards small mini rallies and one large national rally after the planned rallies for this year are complete.

I think as a new organization (a term used very loosely) we are still finding our way. As our membership grows (assuming it will) the national rallies have the potential to become large. By large I mean 100 or more coaches. For now let's assume our first national rally will be Oklahoma City in April of 2009. lets also assume we can get an attendance of at least 100 coaches.

That number of attendees brings with it some benefits and some drawbacks.

On the seminar side I see some problems with hands on seminars unless the groups are broken up into smaller sizes and we run several parallel sessions. JDUB talked about the possibility of having a coach or two up in the air and doing an undercoach seminar. That is possible if the group is about 10 or 15 people, but if we have more it will be impossible to give everybody an opportunity to get up close and personal with highly polished slack adjusters.

In Sevierville there was a traveling seminar by Rick May and Ben Cummins. We had about 40 people and undoubtedly some could not see in detail what was being shown so we know the numbers impact how the seminar can be presented. The seminar Hector and I did regarding the air suspension could have had a larger attendance with no loss of quality for attendees, and the seminars by Bill Jensen and Goodyear were also capable of having many more attendees.

So the size of the rally affects what the seminars can cover or how they are presented. We as a group need to do the planning and discussion now. This is not Jim Skiff's responsibility.

So far every rally has been great. So far the attendance has not been so large that we cannot personally interact with everybody in attendance. I do not know what the number of attendees has to be, but at some point we shift from becoming a single large group of friends to a mob of cliques or disassociated groups of friends.

When we attended early Prevost Proud rallies that had 30 to 50 coaches we felt we were a part of the group. When the Prevost Proud rallies were 200 coaches we never felt so alone. As a POG member I never want any other POG member to attend a rally and feel alone.

I see large attendance rallies to have a huge advantage apart from the problems I see on the social side. As a group we can get high quality seminars from Detroit, Allison, Lifeline, and Prevost. I can envision various converters providing on site tech support and maybe even conversion specific seminars.

But I also see a central national seminar as being a loser. If we have centrally located rallies conceptually it seems the way to go, but the reality is that everybody has a long and expensive drive and that may serve to reduce attendance. Before we cast anything in stone I think we should explore places, the issue of number of attendees, the topics and presenters, and a parallel program of high quality for our significant others who do not intend to learn how to polish slack adjusters.

[Coloradobus]

Jon,

Being part of the group and interacting with all in the group is the utmost importance. Placing a name with a face/voice and coach is what I hope we are about.
Becoming so large, as you said about the PP rally you an Di attended, never feeling so alone, is why the rallies need to be intimate.
As part of the our Rocky Mountain Vintage Airstream Rally Planning committee, and Chris, being Wagonmaster, our group has tried large and small groups and has landed on a number that works for our group.
Having a rally that attracts the attention/$$$$ of converters/vendors/, service support and all that goes with them, in turn make that rally like FMCA, Prevost Prouds etc., which is what the two of us don't want.
Those types of rallies, the main objective is "Tech Support" in other words, "free service" Past rallies, we know of partcipants who come, forego any events, just to be there for the free service.
Our POG seminars are for hands on owners and all interested persons and some who are not totally hands on, but want to be educated to keep a watchful eye on a 'hired" tech.
POG2, Santa Fe, was an absolute blast!!! Santa Fe Skies owner John, after over 2 years still reminisces on our antics and "Bling" contest. 2 weeks ago while we were there, he wanted to know when we might return.
Kerrville, was fun, especially caranning with the Orange County gang getting there. But on a whole, that rally appeared to us to have some of the backlash/problems of being a bit too large, that's our opinion ( groups/ cliques).
We need to remember a couple of things.
Keep it intimate,
Keep it simple
Keep it interesting.
Keep it laid back.

If there are going to be more mini rallies, with a once a year Natiional one, then a good number for the mini rallies is 50-70. Our magic number span.
The WBCCI, Wally Byam Caravan Club/Airstream club has a once year national rally where there are thousands of rigs that show up. Then in turn, the National Club is broken up into Regional divisions, and in turn, the regions are broken into Units. We have 12 Regions in North America which has 142 Units. The total population of the Airstream Club is 6,693 member rigs. There are a great many more airstream owners who don't care for the rigid militaristic hierarchy that is the WBCCI. As a natioanl club, membership is dropping not only from natural attrition but from owners who don't like structure. When I was a kid with my parents in the Airstream club, member rigs numbered over 15,000.
My point is, let's not have the POG become this giant mass of congregating busses, for you will loose members in the end.

[dale farley]

I too, see the advantage of the larger gatherings from the standpoint of the support we will get from the converters/sponsors. As Jon/Jim/Chris mentioned, I agree with the fact that we can easily become so big that we lose all the friendship aspects of the group. The larger we become, the more pronounced the cliques become. Unfortunately, it is very easy for the members of any clique to fail to recognize they are part of one.

There were some couples at Sevierville that seemed to be almost isolated for no apparent reason. One couple told me that only one other person had come to their open house. I don't think that was intentional on anyone's part, but the results were the same. Maybe next time, we need to make sure the open house is split up so all rows are given adequate coverage. It "was" difficult to attempt to see everyone else's bus while hosting your own.

Hopefully, we won't become so large that we only have the opportunity to socialize with a few. If so, this rather defeats the main purpose for having the rally. I'm sure most all the men enjoy the technical aspects, but friendships are much more important in the long run. Regardless of our social or financial status elsewhere, bus ownership serves as somewhat of an equalizer when we're at a rally.

I'm not convinced that an East and West rally won't continue to be better than a National one.

[Darl-Wilson]

Wow! What a great group!! It is such a great pleasure to be surrounded by people focused on keeping this fantastic organization together and heading in the right direction. I agree totally with the previous writers and am willing to make whatever contribution necessary to maintain the cohesive nature of the POG.

The one potential failing we have is substantial leadership. That is also our outstanding appeal. I think we are at a point where we need a group decision about the future direction of POG. The most important items have been raised by previous posts, such as size and number of rallies. Then there are the seminars and numbers of attendees for each type, i.e. hands-on around a coach or group meetings in a large room with Power Point displays. How about some sort of diversion for members not interested in the mechanical aspects of their coach? All of these items need to be addressed...but by whom? Perhaps we should look to Jim Skiff to solve them. Maybe Jim should ask members to create a democratic solution.

So many questions, so few answers. I will stick my neck out on this one and suggest we vote on the future structure of this group. First, I don't think we need any paid members to organize events. Perhaps we should make a contribution for expenses incurred by volunteer members for postage, fuel, food, etc.

Next, we could ask for volunteers for seminars that could also help determine the appropriate number of attendees and other volunteers to insure that all members will be included in some type of activity and not excluded from open house programs, etc.

My list could go on and on but I think we should first get some feedback about any future POG structure change. The first input should be from Jim Skiff. He certainly has a big financial investment in this group and is the driving force in the implementation and negotiation of all facets of the rallies.

Hopefully we will get much more input about this subject that was originated by Jon and expanded by Jim/Chris and Dale/Paulette. As they all indicated we are growing and some changes may be needed for us to remain a close-knit and fun-loving group.

Finally, it looking like you 'right-coasters' had a ball last week. Just watch our 'mini' in Pahrump on Cinco de Mayo!!

Darl

[Jon Wehrenberg]

There is likely a formula for our activities. I just do not think we have found it yet, but I think we have all the elements.

From the major and mini rallies Di and I have attended I think we have concluded that the sizes so far have not reached the point where we are not able to get to interact with all attendees. Kerrville was very close to that point however. I think the Sevierville and Santa Fe rallies were an excellent size. Having said that Di and I also believe the the PSL mini rally was a blast and it was small enough to really get to know and enjoy one another.

I think the seminars have reached the quality level we need them to be, and I think they will continue to improve so it is my opinion we just need to make the topics of interest known, and then find presenters from within our group, or from suppliers.

Perhaps the template that we are following is the way we need to structure all future rallies, and that as a group all we need to do is continue to refine the locations, the number of attendees, and if we need any kind of organizational structure.

Kerrville was structured and run by three CA POG guys that clearly worked their tails off. The rally was a success. Sevierville was run singlehandedly by Skiffer. The rally was a success. Should we sit back and let Jim handle the administrative side? He demonstrated clearly that he can do it and he did it well.

The size of the rally is going to be a very difficult question to answer. If it is a 100 coach rally POG will have converters and other suppliers lining up to participate because they can reach a large audience. They spend a lot of money to support our group and in turn they expect our group to support them, as we should. At 100 coaches, plus converter coaches, we have fewer campgrounds available for rallies, and we have certain seminars that cannot be easily done. On the other hand, a rally of that size may allow the converters to do converter specific seminars, something we have never had and that seems very important. Maybe the attraction of a national rally with a large number of attendees is less on the social agenda, but heavily biased toward converter specific training and maybe service.

Perhaps we need a businesslike large national rally every two years emphasizing learning, and in between have smaller more intimate rallies mixing learning with a lot of socializing.

At 30 to 50 coaches the converters spend exactly the same amount of money to attend a rally, but have a smaller audience. We can expect to not have major suppliers such as Detroit or Allison send seminar presenters.

There is one critical element we need to include in all rallies, and it needs to constantly vary and improve just like our seminars. We must insure our better halves will have activities and seminars of interest while the technical seminars are taking place. If that does not happen we can expect future rallies will be less well attended.

[truk4u]

Dale,

I think one of the problems was folks had to walk around the campground and look for the signs in the windows and we were pretty well spread out. At the next Rally, maybe a balloon tied to the mirrors would be easier to identify and possibly a list prior to the open house identifying the site numbers.

I'm sorry if someone felt isolated and I hope we can do better in the future.

[dale farley]

Tom,

I agree about the signs. You had to go to the front to find the sign, so the signs on the buses on the last couple rows were even less visible. A balloon on each end would have made it much easier to see. This should be an easy one to improve on.

[MangoMike]

Good comments by all.

Dale we would've liked to visit a plethora of busses, but we were planted showing ours. I'm sure lots of folks were in the same boat. Alternating days per row would solve that problem.

I thought the food was passable, but I'm sure it was a cost issue with Skiffer trying to keep cost in line to keep the entry fee reasonable. As always you get what you pay for. Unless you're buying sheep.

The pay for breakfast at Kerrville was a great way to handle the morning. Giving everyone an option without having to build the cost into the entry fee. Although I'm sure some of us thought it needed more breakfast burritos.

We had some impromptu "Campfire in Can" gatherings around JDUB's and our bus which were down home enjoyable. I wonder if this can be expanded into larger gatherings.

Auctions: I think there should be a rule at future auctions prohibiting any bodily desecrations. ;)
2589

Donna claimed it was the best Rally ever. I think she now knows a lot of folks from previous gatherings, and there was plenty to do around Sevierville, a good formula. And we all know if mom is happy, everyone is happy.

Jim, we had a great time. Thanks

mm

[dale farley]

Yep, it is hard to be in two places at once. I finally left Paulette at ours and went looking on my own, but I would much preferred we could've shown ours together and then looked at others together.

[shookie]

...simply tie a can of beer (or 2) or a scotch and soda (or 2) to any of your mirrors...cheers all and thanks for the memories....

[Ray Davis]

But I also see a central national seminar as being a loser. If we have centrally located rallies conceptually it seems the way to go, but the reality is that everybody has a long and expensive drive and that may serve to reduce attendance.


So, this brings up the question to me, as to how do we accomplish getting everyone involved? Previous rallies have been somewhat centrally located (Santa Fe, Kerrville, and Branson). Because of this we were able to have a pretty decent turn-out from the west coast folks.

Now, with Pahrump coming up, there were only 9 coaches registered to attend (will be 8 now due fire damage). Although I'm sure that everyone will have a great time in Pahrump, you cannot have the same rally experience as just happened with everyone in TN, with only 8 coaches. It wasn't really clear to me, until I took a quick look at Dale's membership map. It's quite obvious that the vast majority of the POG members live from central to eastern US. Basically no-one east of Arizona, (with the exception of Jon, I believe), chose to attend the Pahrump rally.

I'm not complaining here, just asking that we consider how to include everyone in future rallies. Obviously it's difficult for east coast folks to come to the west, and vice-versa. At least centralized, it's kind of equally difficult, but I don't know if that' the solution either.

I do know that many west coast folks are planning on attending the SD rally. I would have been there, if not for other committments right during the same time period.

Thanks for listening.
Ray

[truk4u]

Hey Jerk Chicken Boy, your the one that started the fuzz removal from poor ole Jdub and stiffed him for a grand, what a buddy!:eek: Many of us bailed him out and gave him cash on the side to help ease the pain from his Taco Twin torpedo job. Now if you would like to chip in and reimburse some of us, just let me know and I'll tell you where to send the money.;)

[Jerry Winchester]

Okay, I'll bite on this one.

I think the prospect of a "national" rally is only from a location standpoint. As Ray points out, it is not near as much fun if there are only a few coaches in attendance and if the attendees are always the folks you have mini rallies with. I can tell you that the reason the Nevada rally is poorly attended is because it is two weeks after the Sevierville rally, plain and simple. Great concept, poor scheduling.

But then lets look at the technical stuff. In Santa Fe and Kerrville, less than half of the attendees went to any of the technical sessions which is fine with me. Some folks come to socialize and ask a few technical questions, but really don't care about how to operate a DDEC reader. I'm cool with that.

I suggested a rally in the middle of the country to help the West Coast guys out and to help recreate the ambiance we had a Santa Fe and Kerrville. I have enjoyed every rally we have had and having a group of folks decide they want to have an impromptu rally or gathering is just fine with me. I live in the middle of the country so I can go either direction with equal ease.

However, to convince the converters, sponsors and other interested parties to drag up two or three times a year for a handful of coaches is somewhat unrealistic. I enjoyed their presence and support and the camaraderie.

Yep, the open coach deal was a little mixed up. We need to do it by row next time and just set it up like a moving block party. But we also need to figure out how to get all the coaches parked TOGETHER and not all scattered out. Except for the Krakman's Sheep Palace. He needs to be out with the goat people.

I also think the location is important. I personally thought the Polk City location sucked. But that lake and the flight museum next door redeemed it.

I thought Santa Fe was great because we coupled it with the Balloon Fiesta.

Kerrville was the best location we have been to facility wise as the spaces were great, the roads were good, the meeting facilities were first class and there were other things to do locally.

Branson was "quaint" but for the most part we were all bunched up together and if you couldn't find anything to do there you were brain dead.

Sevierville is Branson on steroids. I was somewhat unimpressed with the parking spaces (pads don't line up with anything, sewer dump was about 1 foot in the air and gravel roads. But the meeting room was first class and the food was done well and it was a very pretty location.

I think if we can get 50-60 coaches together in a central or pseudo-central location annually, then we can get some sponsor help and put on some nice technical seminars. If the location is good, then there are enough other things for spouses, non-technical folks, 12 step guys (insert "Shookie" here) or anyone else. Will it ever be everything to everyone? No. Will it be a good mix and a fun time? Hopefully.

I think we also should rethink the technical stuff. I know all I need or want to know about a Webasto, but there are lots of new folks that want to know this. A list of potential topics with a poll (yes you can do this on this version of the POG forum board) could help with this.

I also think location could dictate the topic. I mentioned the possibility of calling in some markers with United Engines if we decide to do a rally in OKC. If we have leverage with someone like this, then getting one of our busses in the air on their lift and having Jon give the Level Low / Suspension / Air Brake seminar with the real thing is about as good as it gets. If there are 50 people there, then he has to do it twice while the other group sees one of our busses running on a chassis dyno. How many times do you get that opportunity? Or if we ended up close to a Prevost facility and had a tour / technical seminar at their digs. I am curious enough to go at least once.

So what does this all mean? Crap I don't know. For me it means I had a good time, I want to have another good time, I want the next good time to be better than the last one and I want all my POG buddies to have a good time too. (As well as their wives).

What else?

[rmboies]

Dale,
I think one of the problems was folks had to walk around the campground and look for the signs in the windows and we were pretty well spread out. At the next Rally, maybe a balloon tied to the mirrors would be easier to identify and possibly a list prior to the open house identifying the site numbers.
I'm sorry if someone felt isolated and I hope we can do better in the future.

Truk, I am sorry as well that anyone felt neglected. It was difficult to get away from our coach to look at others. Every time I stepped out someone seemed to step in :D There were many coaches I wanted to see but time was limited. If I remember correctly, in Kerrville the coach tours were divided into two different days? Certain rows for specific days? I think that was a good plan. It is just too much for everyone to participate within a limited time frame. I like the idea of balloons attached to the mirrors for easy sighting too.

I also would like to see something more informative for the ladies. Helpful hints regarding decorating your coach, shopping for your coach, specific cleaning ideas, i.e. granite, corian, etc., how to use your convection oven would even be helpful to me:rolleyes:

Debi

[Coloradobus]

A suggestion about open house.

Upon registering for a particular rally, have a box on the sign up form to check for wanting to be an "open house" Coach. Upon participants arrival to venue to check in, they will be presented with a sheet listing those coaches on rows/area/block that are open for 'OPEN HOUSE' and a time span, and have a map of the campgorund to plot your viewing of Open House coaches..
This was sort tried at Kerrville, but a list prior to beginnning for the rally would be nicer.

[Ray Davis]

Just as an FYI, when we tried the open-house stuff in Kerrville, we set it up for three different evenings, all around cocktail hour. We did try to set people up in similar areas, for the same evening. The first evening was just the CA group and Coloradobus.

I think this worked fairly well, however, it was a "new" tradition, and not everyone seemed to know about it. So, I think we had less people trying to visit coaches. It seems though that this has become popular!

Ray

[garyde]

Its odd to me more west coast members are not participating in the forum and the rallys. I have met a few who belong to POG but do not participate. I wonder if this is a west coast thing. I think we need to focus on membership and particpation per region . When I meet a Prevost owner, I always give them a POG card and share a little bit about our group. You know, we have a wonderful group of people here, we just need to widen our circle.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

As much as I would like to see our membership grow to where the vast majority of Prevost owners are POG members I doubt if that will happen as we are currently doing things.

POG started as a group of owners that wanted to develop a better understanding of the mechanical or operational side of Prevost ownership. The owners and the programs we have, along with discussions on the forum seem to indicate that is still the core group.

If we really wanted to attract more members then POG has to shift gears and also include programs or activities that attract others to the Prevost lifestyle. The Prevost Prouds for example have a completely different emphasis. A lot of the activities they enjoy are along the lines of upscale social events. When we were in the Prouds there was always at least one evening where the men and ladies put on their Sunday finest for an evening out. Maybe the ladies in POG would like something like that at least one evening of a rally.

Other Prevost groups or owners may want to play golf rather than listen to a seminar on tire pressures. My point is the only way we can greatly expand our numbers is to create rally agendas with all kinds of activities, open the forum up to more topics including discussions on a broader range of interests, and we have to quit cutting off ties if guys wear one.

Personally, I think as we evolve, and membership expands we may see a shift in some of the activities, and there may be a rally location that has a real fancy place to hold a charity dinner so the guys and ladies can dress up. But for now, unless all groups join forces there will probably be Prevost Prouds, Bus'n Bikers, and POG.

[truk4u]

I would like to see more free time. There are places and things to see at the rally locations, but we're all so busy, we don't have time to check them out. Maybe we could do seminars in the morning on a couple of days and then have the rest of the day to do our own thing. Of course many will be helping others with bus projects, but at least we would have the option.

The ladies for sure should have more activities of interest to them. I suggest a steering committee of lady volunteers for the rallies to set their own agenda.

Did anyone notice that Mango always needs repairs at rallies!:o

[rickdesilva]

Having participated in 2 rallys and 1 mini rally, don't lose the fact that what we are experiencing is why POG is POG. There will never be a perfect situation, someone will always feel that one rally was better for them than the last rally. My personal feeling is let the group grow naturally. I have realized that this group is a group of equal opportunity offenders. What happens at our rallys may not appeal to the "universe" of Prevost owners. I think some of us have pitched the group to Prevost owners we have had contact with and never heard from them. We leave our coach in Florida where there many of our neighbors own Prevosts and I don't see any of those people participating in a group like this. If they follow the forum, as I am sure they have, it may scare them away...but that is why POG is POG. Those people who enjoy the kind of activities that are talked about on the site will join.
At this rally we were a few rows over, we never felt isolated but needless to say the fun is when everyone is side by side.
As far as the location of rallys, the unfortunate thing is that we're 3000+ miles apart. I think one centralized rally a year would be the attraction to keep both coasts in contact with each other. My feeling is that the mini-rallys will be the element that will make the group grow.
Just my 2 cents....