Wheel Balancers

[dale farley]

Can I assume that any Centramatic Wheel Balancers that are 22.5" will fit my bus? Does it make any difference that they came off a truck? They appear to have many holes for the lugs, so I assume the bus lug pattern would match some of the holes.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Wrong. There is two different lug patterns. New style has 8 old has 10.

[Orren Zook]

Wrong. There is two different lug patterns. New style has 8 old has 10.

and the new ones are metric.....

[BrianE]

Dale,

Assuming you are still doing research, suggest you check out Balance Masters: http://www.balancemasters.com/home.html. We are having a set installed in Orlando tomorrow. Instead of steel balls, Balance Masters use mercury in a teflon tube and a steel mounting assembly similar to Centramatics. They have a 10 year warranty and cost about the same as Centramatics. If you phone them, ask for Chris.

[dale farley]

Joe/Orren, I'm glad I asked. I was looking at several sets on eBay, but they came off trucks. I went to the website and really got confused trying to compare those to the ones on eBay.

Brian, I am looking at the Balance Masters also. I see they have been in business for eight years and have sold a large number in the U.S. I was thinking you told me (when you were here) that you found them at a better deal than listed on the website, but I have not found any other source for them.

[Ray Davis]

I'm hoping Ken Z will chime in here. I remember a recent conversation with him. He was planning on adding balancers (not sure which brand), and was talked out of it by someone (may have been a tire dealer, not sure).

Hopefully Ken will get in here with details. He was concerned enough to not add them.

Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'm not sure if there is any best way to balance tires, except I do know external wheel weights are a lousy way to do it.

I once considered Centrimatics or their equivalent but I have found Equal is significantly more cost effective.

At $10 per axle per side it takes a long time and a lot of tire replacements before I can justify the expenditure for Centrimatics. I would guess a commercial bus or entertainer bus would be ideal candidates for those type balancers, but with our limited usage I couldn't make the numbers justifiable.

[dale farley]

Jon, I agree about the cost of Equal compared to the external balancers, but I don't think I can use any of the internal compound because of the tire monitors I just installed. Don't know this for sure. I noticed my local tire store sells a liquid that is supposed to be superior to Equal, but here again, I don't know if it will work. It is $25 per tire.

[bluevost]

Good morning POGgers,

Like Ray mentioned, I spent a good deal of time with the owner of Balance Masters at Quartzite. He had me convinced that his product was the way to go. When I got a new set of tires just last month I told the distributor I was going to bring along some wheel balancers for installation at the same time. The tire guy tells me they "take those things off when trucks come in for new tires, save your money". Now this guy had no ax to grind. He did not try to sell me another product. So now being completely confused, I have a new set of tires, with external weights. Interesting too, they did not balance the duals at all!!

Reminds me of the time I had my tranny serviced at Mira Loma, they put in Dexron III "never use Transend(SP?)" they said. Then had the tranny rebuilt at Valley Power and they put in Transend, "never use Dexron III" they said. Go figure!!

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Good morning POGgers,

Like Ray mentioned, I spent a good deal of time with the owner of Balance Masters at Quartzite. He had me convinced that his product was the way to go. When I got a new set of tires just last month I told the distributor I was going to bring along some wheel balancers for installation at the same time. The tire guy tells me they "take those things off when trucks come in for new tires, save your money". Now this guy had no ax to grind. He did not try to sell me another product. So now being completely confused, I have a new set of tires, with external weights. Interesting too, they did not balance the duals at all!!

Reminds me of the time I had my tranny serviced at Mira Loma, they put in Dexron III "never use Transend(SP?)" they said. Then had the tranny rebuilt at Valley Power and they put in Transend, "never use Dexron III" they said. Go figure!!

Hi Ken, long time no talky. Good to hear you're around and fine.

Did the tire man give you any specific reasons for removing the device for truckers?
What made you decide to believe him?
It seems he sold you the weighted balancing job:confused:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ken....wheel balancing is critical. All wheels. Maybe the guy driving a semi does not care if his drive wheels are balanced because he is getting bounced around and usually does have to buy his own tires, but if your drives are not in balance you will notice it.

I used wheel weights originally and as the tire wears and gets some miles on it it may go out of balance. A steer that is out of balance will wear faster, unevenly and will feel lousy. A tag seems worse.

I think Balance Master, Equal, Centrimatic, etc. is definitely the way to go. Each has its advantages, but they all work to maintain tire balance as the tire wears. Wheel weights are OK, but due to the nature of balancing which does not include all rotating parts such as the hub, or drum or disc you have no assurance the balancing using wheel weights is as good as it can be. To Dale's comment, I do not know why a tire pressure sensor is affected if Equal is used. The sensors I have seen are sealed. I also have not seen any notes or prohibitions on tire pressure sensor sites to limit the use to tires without an internal balancing media.

I think we are learning a very important lesson here on POG. Don't necessarily rely on the advice of technicians, but research and verify everything.

[rfoster]

Jon: Remember the words of Ronald Reagan " Trust but Verify". When it comes to bus mechanics the trust is hard to give and the verify is essential.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Reagan was a wise man. This month I have heard directly from POG members about how they were given bad advice, or worse, were taken to the cleaners with respect to either bad repairs or unnecessary repairs. I will not post names and circumstances here, but all of the costs were in the mid four figures and at least one was five figures.

The absolute worst part of the stories I have been told is that the advice and shoddy or incorrect work was by the companies whose names are on our coaches. I intend to bring this issue up at Seveirville and Pahrump. Things out there in service land are changing, and it is not good.

Ken, If you haven't done it yet we can mount those wheel balancers at Pahrump. It will not take long and it will make a difference in your ride and tire life. You'll have a new set of stands to try while we do that.

[Ray Davis]

Ken, If you haven't done it yet we can mount those wheel balancers at Pahrump. It will not take long and it will make a difference in your ride and tire life. You'll have a new set of stands to try while we do that.

That would make for a good seminar. I would be willing to purchase a set, and be the target of the install? Heck, it's got to be easier than changing two windshields!

Ray

[bluevost]

Jon, you got a deal, I'll bring the Balance Masters to Pahrump. Please tell me you have necessary tools/equip to remove wheels. I have some air bags that I was going to rig up to raise the bus some, like Dale J did. I can bring them if needed.

Ray, my good friend, you will be second in line.

Thanks,

Ken

[Jon Wehrenberg]

At home I use a 1" impact wrench, but on the road I carry an X12. It is a little more work but it will definitely get the job done.

Did Ray say this couldn't be any more work than replacing a windshield? He can do the install on his bus himself and render a verdict.

One word of caution which Roger may wish to discuss in detail.....if you have valve stem extenders on the inner drive wheels you assume all future responsibility for what may occur. I am opposed to them but you make your own decisions regarding their compatibility with wheel balancers.

[dreamchasers]

Jon,

Do you recommend anyone in the Knoxville area that installs Equal. I thought it would be a good test to have it installed in Tenn and test it on the ride back to Texas.

Hector

[bluevost]

Jon,

I got rid of those valve extenders a long time ago.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Hector,

I go to a tire supply wholesaler and buy Equal and since I mount my own tires I install it myself. There are several truck tire places that will likely do the install. I can point you towards them.

Ken,

Wise decision.

[JIM KELLER]

Stopped at Jacksonville Prevost on our way to Sevierville for new tires. Had my previously purchased Centramatics installed on the steer and tag. Although I also have a set for the drive I did not put them on at this time. The techs proved to me that wheel weights will not balance bus tires and wheels. It is a waste of time and money to use the traditional clip on or stick on weights. Why you ask ! It was hard to believe. They used chaulk and scribed a line on both tires and wheels on the front of an XL and took it for a drive. After several agressive stops they returned to the shop and the lines on both wheels no longer lined up with the tires. The tires rotated on the wheels. For this reason, alternative balancing methods must be considered.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

You stated in the simplest possible fashion why my first set of tires with balancing weights experienced cupping and never lasted as long as the subsequent ones in which I used Equal.

Great piece of info. I would have never thought they would rotate on the wheel itself, but I know they come off the bead when I chage tires often by just standing on the tire sidewall.

[Ray Davis]

The tires rotated on the wheels. For this reason, alternative balancing methods must be considered.

But wouldn't Centramatics counter this difference? I understand that static weights never could, but the always adjusting characteristic of something like Centramatics should work? Or am I missing something?

Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

That is exactly the point Ray.

Wheel weights are located in a fixed position and as the balance point moves they not only become less effective, they may actually contribute to an out of balance situation.

Any dynamic balancing means such as Equal or Centrimatics always maintains the balance as necessary because they respond to the need.

But most importantly, wheel weights, even if the tire did not rotate will not deal with balance issues for the total rotating mass. Only Centrimatics and Equal can deal with that. I went from a tire life of 75,000 to 130,000 just by adding Equal. I am sure Balance masters or Centrimatics would do the same thing. If your tires age out instead of wearing out tire tread life is not important, but a smooth ride is very important.

[Ray Davis]

Well, perhaps then I mis-understood. Jim indicated that he HAD a set of Centramatics for the drives, but did not install them. I assumed the explanation that followed, was why he didn't install them on the drives?

So, I assume best practice would be to install balancers on ALL wheels?

Ray

[JIM KELLER]

Well, perhaps then I mis-understood. Jim indicated that he HAD a set of Centramatics for the drives, but did not install them. I assumed the explanation that followed, was why he didn't install them on the drives?

So, I assume best practice would be to install balancers on ALL wheels?

Ray

Ray, I bought two new tires for the steer and had the fronts moved to the tag. I wanted the centramatics on the drive also but the Prevost facility in Jacksonville was so packed with work and behind I would have had to wait another day for the additional work. I will have the drives installed the next oppertunity. I will say the ride is great with the centramatics on the steer and tag ! It can only be better with them on the drives.

[Ray Davis]

Thanks for the clarification, Jim!

Ray

[Coloradobus]

Ray,

We have Centramatics all the way around. Started with the Drivers. Since they helped, we added the balancers to the steer and tag.
Now, on some of the smoothest roads, I actually have to look at the speedo, since I can't "feel" how fast we are going by way the coach is responding.
We will never leave home again without them.

If you can find a local retailer, it seems to be cheaper to buy there than to buy directly from Centramatic. We even have them on our Aristreams.

[Ray Davis]

So getting back to several threads now! :D In this thread, one day prior to "the bus fire", Ken had made arrangements to have Jon help install his Balance Masters out at Pahrump. Did that happen? What is the report Ken? Besides looking at this opportunity to install tire sensors, I'm seriously considering Centramatics or Balance Masters at the same time.

We've heard from several happy Centramatics customers, but I'm curious to hear from any Balance Masters customers too. Evidently Marathon FL is fairly close to Orlando, where Brian indicated he was installing Balance Masters (earlier in this thread)

Ray

[BrianE]

Ray,

We did purchase and install Balance Masters. We bought them from JoSam Frame and Alignment in Orlando who was a very helpful and knowledgeable BM dealer. We now have approximately 5k miles on them and they are performing as advertised. I think they're a very good product, similar to Centramatics and considerably more expensive than equal which is not recommended for use with valvestem mounted pressure monitors.